PG: BENCH MOB COMES UP HUGE!!!

[DreamTeam09]

Of course it matters that we're not at full strength... I just said that the players Orlando are missing are clearly better than the players the Raptors are missing. Im a massive RJ fan but in no way do you think theyre the same level of overall player lol. Then you have Suggs who is clearly better than Poeltl.

The gap between RJ+Poeltl and Wagner+Suggs is not nearly as big as you are making it out to be IMO. Especially when you consider importance to a team.

A healthy Poeltl does more for Toronto than Suggs does for Orlando, simply because our Poeltl replacement is a lot worse than Orlandos Suggs replacement. Suggs replacement is Black who is arguably not really a dropoff at all from Suggs lol. Whereas our Poeltl replacement is nothing and requires a complete overhaul of team philosophy.

What youre saying is part of why we're a flawed team and Orlando's a better team. Suggs is literally their engine and just on a different level than Poeltl who is just an average role player.

We will see how things play out over a full season once both teams get fully healthy in a few weeks. Hope youre right but id bet a lot that you're not lol.

if Suggs is the engine to your team then your team is flawed just as much as our team is then. Crappy shooter & a decent to poor playmaker who's currently injury prone. He plays with grit but I wouldn't wanna be paying him 32mill & would rather have the 3pt shooting of IQ for the same price

[mihaic]

IQ hate is a bit overblown especially considering he was a big reason that they just beat the Warriors, 27 points and 5/10 from 3pt.....he just needs to be more consistent, don't want him to be a hot/cold player.

Moving Shead to starter makes sense if Raptors make a big trade to upgrade the center position...lets say they trade a IQ+Poeltl package. But then Raptors will need to fill the backup PG spot.

Any trade that ends up with Shead being our best PG isn’t a good trade for a serious team.

Big fan of Shead, but he’s an energy bench guard

A large contingent of this board wanted to punt FVV into the sun for his inefficient scoring and now they want to start a guy who is shooting 37% from the field.

Shead is not close to a starting level PG. I’d be surprised if he ever gets there based on his scoring woes. Fine player but thinking he can start is borderline crazy imo.

Shead defends, Fred didn't, he was either injured or checked out.

Shead needs to work on a floater aside from 3pt practice

[Appostis]

May or may not be reading over the magic comments in Reddit..(not commenting or posting just reading).

Some of it is

[Son Goku 25]

Any trade that ends up with Shead being our best PG isn’t a good trade for a serious team.

Big fan of Shead, but he’s an energy bench guard

A large contingent of this board wanted to punt FVV into the sun for his inefficient scoring and now they want to start a guy who is shooting 37% from the field.

Shead is not close to a starting level PG. I’d be surprised if he ever gets there based on his scoring woes. Fine player but thinking he can start is borderline crazy imo.

Shead defends, Fred didn't, he was either injured or checked out.

Shead needs to work on a floater aside from 3pt practice

Fred did "lock down" Steph in the finals better than maybe anyone. He was a good to great defender at once then probably regressed due to injuries and wear and tear or just caring more about offense.

Btw, not a Fred fan just stating the obvious.

[mihaic]

A large contingent of this board wanted to punt FVV into the sun for his inefficient scoring and now they want to start a guy who is shooting 37% from the field.

Shead is not close to a starting level PG. I’d be surprised if he ever gets there based on his scoring woes. Fine player but thinking he can start is borderline crazy imo.

Shead defends, Fred didn't, he was either injured or checked out.

Shead needs to work on a floater aside from 3pt practice

Fred did "lock down" Steph in the finals better than maybe anyone. He was a good to great defender at once then probably regressed due to injuries and wear and tear or just caring more about offense.

Btw, not a Fred fan just stating the obvious.

Most people did not complain about that Fred. Rather about the later Fred that became entitled and was chasing the bag, and became a pylon on D

[ForeverTFC]

Orlando might not be a championship contender some said but they are definitely a level above us when healthy. Wagner has been their best player and Suggs is their engine... judging Orlando without them in the lineup is foolish. You go ask the General Board and it would massively favour Orlando.

And we were missing our starting SG and our really only big.

Wagner - 23/6/4 60TS%
Barrett - 19/5/4 60TS%

Why is Wagner missing relevant, but Barrett isn’t even mentioned?

Of course it matters that we're not at full strength... I just said that the players Orlando are missing are clearly better than the players the Raptors are missing. Im a massive RJ fan but in no way do you think theyre the same level of overall player lol. Then you have Suggs who is clearly better than Poeltl.

Wagner is a much better player than RJ, no question there. He is the Magic's best player so I agree with your point that their injuries were more instrumental than ours.

Suggs is overrated. Go on the Magic board and half of them think he should come off the bench when he comes back. I'd argue he's just as important for them as Poeltl for us.

[SFour]

Do people realize that Shead's TS% is like 49%? That is dreadful especially for someone that doesn't have a specialized skill out there. IQ is way better and a significantly better fit in the lineup given his shooting ability. Wanting Shead to play over IQ is literally absurd. lol.

IQ hate is a bit overblown especially considering he was a big reason that they just beat the Warriors, 27 points and 5/10 from 3pt.....he just needs to be more consistent, don't want him to be a hot/cold player.

Moving Shead to starter makes sense if Raptors make a big trade to upgrade the center position...lets say they trade a IQ+Poeltl package. But then Raptors will need to fill the backup PG spot.

Any trade that ends up with Shead being our best PG isn’t a good trade for a serious team.

Big fan of Shead, but he’s an energy bench guard

you don't think Shead-RJ-Barnes-Ingram-AD could work? lets assume AD isn't injury prone

[dagger]

The problem with IQ as a fulltime 2 is that he really lacks physicality. We try to hide him defensively on the worst wing/guard out there, but if someone gets a head of steam and attacks, IQ is an absolute pylon, worst on the team at defending drives. So in a lineup where we have him and Shead, if the other team has size and aggression on the perimeter, it's a problem.

IQ really is a modern Lou Williams type. He's a combo gunner who isn't really effective at defending either guard position. Hard to slot a guy like that in as a full time starter. IQ will make a defensive play every now and again, but his overall defensive consistency and versatility is terrible.

Raptors fans love to debate about Gradey vs Ja'Kobe vs Ochai but the biggest question in my mind now is whether to start Shead and make IQ 6th man. Shead is an old-school type orchestrator defender at PG, which is how the position used to be defined before every young point guard wanted to be a great scorer. IQ, on the other hand, reminds me of Jamal Crawford, who was drafted the Bulls as a point guard, basically failed at that only to become J-Crossover as sixth man for a number of teams and winning 6MoY three times. IQ excelled with the Knicks off the bench, but the Raptors just seem better when Shead runs with the starters. That might require further trades to add shooting to the starting lineup or a more serious alley-oop target. The shift might happen in season but follow up changes would carry on into the summer or even a couple of seasons down the road. Shead really needs to add an in-between move or two to his game, but little man has the cahones to come up big when it counts, more so than IQ.

[ill-Will03]

Any trade that ends up with Shead being our best PG isn’t a good trade for a serious team.

Big fan of Shead, but he’s an energy bench guard

A large contingent of this board wanted to punt FVV into the sun for his inefficient scoring and now they want to start a guy who is shooting 37% from the field.

Shead is not close to a starting level PG. I’d be surprised if he ever gets there based on his scoring woes. Fine player but thinking he can start is borderline crazy imo.

Shead defends, Fred didn't, he was either injured or checked out.

Shead needs to work on a floater aside from 3pt practice

Did you see what Fred did to Steph in the finals?

[HiJiNX]

So I went back and watched the Gradey minutes and…I was wrong. He was not the problem and generally speaking played well. He gave up a couple open threes and didn’t hustle hard enough for a rebound but he played well. And those open threes were a result of mistakes by Shead and Ingram defensively. Dick just happened to be a part of some bad Darko lineups.

So I’ll take the L on that one.

[dagger]

IQ hate is a bit overblown especially considering he was a big reason that they just beat the Warriors, 27 points and 5/10 from 3pt.....he just needs to be more consistent, don't want him to be a hot/cold player.

Moving Shead to starter makes sense if Raptors make a big trade to upgrade the center position...lets say they trade a IQ+Poeltl package. But then Raptors will need to fill the backup PG spot.

Any trade that ends up with Shead being our best PG isn’t a good trade for a serious team.

Big fan of Shead, but he’s an energy bench guard

you don't think Shead-RJ-Barnes-Ingram-AD could work? lets assume AD isn't injury prone

My concern with Davis is not only his injuries but also how he seems to hold a bigger place in our imagination than his recent stats would suggest. He's a 52% FG shooter, 71% free throw percentage, 32 percent three point shooter. Right now that three point percentage is actually three points above his career average so he could well regress to the mean. His rebounding rate is the lowest in the past five seasons. He's averaging 1.6 blocks, below his career average (2.3) which is also the lowest of the past five seasons. His drop-offs aren't just a reflection of the 16 games he's played this season, he's been trending down in multiple categories as he ages. If I were going to take on $54 million in salary ($58 million next season with a player option of $62 million the following season) and maybe burn a first round pick or two in the process, I might look at doing a couple of other things with it, like replacing Poeltl with a youngish C who can shoot a bit from distance, add a veteran backup PG so Shead starts, add one reliable veteran bench wing who can shoot and also defend (a Josh Hart type, for example). With that kind of money and a couple of draft picks, I think the Raptors can do better than Anthony Davis.

[dagger]

So I went back and watched the Gradey minutes and…I was wrong. He was not the problem and generally speaking played well. He gave up a couple open threes and didn’t hustle hard enough for a rebound but he played well. And those open threes were a result of mistakes by Shead and Ingram defensively. Dick just happened to be a part of some bad Darko lineups.

So I’ll take the L on that one.

Chris Black had this interesting take on Gradey vs Walter vs Ingram... Of course there is more to efficiency/effectiveness than on-off stats and net ratings. I'm just content to let these guys fight it out and not slag on them like I have a vested interest because of some draft night buy-in or stated disappointment

Follow the thread.

Read on Twitter

[rapz101]

So I went back and watched the Gradey minutes and…I was wrong. He was not the problem and generally speaking played well. He gave up a couple open threes and didn’t hustle hard enough for a rebound but he played well. And those open threes were a result of mistakes by Shead and Ingram defensively. Dick just happened to be a part of some bad Darko lineups.

So I’ll take the L on that one.

Chris Black had this interesting take on Gradey vs Walter vs Ingram... Of course there is more to efficiency/effectiveness than on-off stats and net ratings. I'm just content to let these guys fight it out and not slag on them like I have a vested interest because of some draft night buy-in or stated disappointment

Follow the thread.

Read on Twitter

Now what is that ORTG in the last 5 minutes of a game. I think that is a more accurate barometer of BI’s effectiveness and also his purpose of being on the team.

Also, while we’re at it, what is his DRTG in the last 5 minutes of a game.

I think those numbers would be more purposeful.

[MEDIC]

I don't hate IQ. He's a useful player. I think the Knicks used him more approptiately.

I am not a fan of that contract though. There are a lot of starting PG's in the league, making the same $$$.or less that I would take over him.

[mihaic]

A large contingent of this board wanted to punt FVV into the sun for his inefficient scoring and now they want to start a guy who is shooting 37% from the field.

Shead is not close to a starting level PG. I’d be surprised if he ever gets there based on his scoring woes. Fine player but thinking he can start is borderline crazy imo.

Shead defends, Fred didn't, he was either injured or checked out.

Shead needs to work on a floater aside from 3pt practice

Did you see what Fred did to Steph in the finals?

Of course. Most people didn't complain about that Fred. I am sure you know what I was talking about, the pylon on D Fred, the entitled one chasing the bag, the allstar guy.

[TakeYourHeart]

Any trade that ends up with Shead being our best PG isn’t a good trade for a serious team.

Big fan of Shead, but he’s an energy bench guard

A large contingent of this board wanted to punt FVV into the sun for his inefficient scoring and now they want to start a guy who is shooting 37% from the field.

Shead is not close to a starting level PG. I’d be surprised if he ever gets there based on his scoring woes. Fine player but thinking he can start is borderline crazy imo.

Shead defends, Fred didn't, he was either injured or checked out.

Shead needs to work on a floater aside from 3pt practice

Saying Fred didn't defend is just a crazy thing to type out and hit submit

[mihaic]

A large contingent of this board wanted to punt FVV into the sun for his inefficient scoring and now they want to start a guy who is shooting 37% from the field.

Shead is not close to a starting level PG. I’d be surprised if he ever gets there based on his scoring woes. Fine player but thinking he can start is borderline crazy imo.

Shead defends, Fred didn't, he was either injured or checked out.

Shead needs to work on a floater aside from 3pt practice

Saying Fred didn't defend is just a crazy thing to type out and hit submit

Did he defend the last year here? Saying he did is a crazy thing to type and hit submit. I am pretty sure you knew that.

[Tor_Raps]

The gap between RJ+Poeltl and Wagner+Suggs is not nearly as big as you are making it out to be IMO. Especially when you consider importance to a team.

A healthy Poeltl does more for Toronto than Suggs does for Orlando, simply because our Poeltl replacement is a lot worse than Orlandos Suggs replacement. Suggs replacement is Black who is arguably not really a dropoff at all from Suggs lol. Whereas our Poeltl replacement is nothing and requires a complete overhaul of team philosophy.

What youre saying is part of why we're a flawed team and Orlando's a better team. Suggs is literally their engine and just on a different level than Poeltl who is just an average role player.

We will see how things play out over a full season once both teams get fully healthy in a few weeks. Hope youre right but id bet a lot that you're not lol.

if Suggs is the engine to your team then your team is flawed just as much as our team is then. Crappy shooter & a decent to poor playmaker who's currently injury prone. He plays with grit but I wouldn't wanna be paying him 32mill & would rather have the 3pt shooting of IQ for the same price

Not a single rational person would take IQ over Suggs right now... youre better than this lol.

Suggs has a lot of what made Lowry great for us that cannot be quantified by basic stats. Hes still not a finished product.

[earthtone]

What youre saying is part of why we're a flawed team and Orlando's a better team. Suggs is literally their engine and just on a different level than Poeltl who is just an average role player.

We will see how things play out over a full season once both teams get fully healthy in a few weeks. Hope youre right but id bet a lot that you're not lol.

if Suggs is the engine to your team then your team is flawed just as much as our team is then. Crappy shooter & a decent to poor playmaker who's currently injury prone. He plays with grit but I wouldn't wanna be paying him 32mill & would rather have the 3pt shooting of IQ for the same price

Not a single rational person would take IQ over Suggs right now... youre better than this lol.

Suggs has a lot of what made Lowry great for us that cannot be quantified by basic stats. Hes still not a finished product.

For our current roster construction I think I’d take IQ over Suggs tbh.

His 3pt volume and range spaces the floor in a way this team really needs, and I don’t think there’s a significant difference as playmakers.

Defensively Suggs is on another level, but I’m higher on IQs defense than most around here.

[Tha Cynic]

Some recency bias going on here. IQ is sporting a 3.5 AST/TO ratio (which is just outside the top 10 among qualified players) and a 28 AST% which is pretty much right in line with guys like Murray, Brunson, Fox, Maxey, etc. He is not a bad PG by any means. Pretty average when it comes to playmaking and defence, but he has a lot more potential scoring the ball that we just haven’t maximized because we’ve been asking him to run the offence a bit more frequently. Ideally, he’s a 20/5/5 kind of guy that takes 8-10 threes per game while being a decent defender.

He’s not the guy you want running the team when you want to win, which is why Shead has been closing out games. We need to unlock his shooting more and have him handle the ball less. He is very bad at processing the game - can’t make simple obvious passes and misses very obvious plays.

He protects the ball well, which is something. I think Bobby needs to he is another PG so we can run Shead and IQ in tandem more and most completely play IQ as a 2 guard.

IQ hate is overblown and somewhat irrational. Though part of it comes from how Darko/the team uses him. He needs to be a scorer first and foremost, but theyj put a lot more emphasis on his playmaking which exposes a lot of the holes in his game. They did the same thing when they tried to shove Scottie as a PG down our throats.

It probably says more about how IQ processes the game when people would rather have a guy with a 49% TS running the point. People thinking IQ isn’t a PG doesn’t mean people don’t think IQ is a good player or that Shead is a better player. IQ is definite better player by far and he is a very good player in general. But he is not a PG and should not be the starting PG on this team.

Problem is the Raptors want to develop Dick & Walter at the SG which is why all the talk about moving RJ - The Raptors need to swap IQ for a more traditional PG - a tough task with IQ's performance & contract.

Yeah this is also going to become a problem because Shead is also undersized. Right now they have a taken deficiency so they’ll have to deal with it till the hopefully add more talent and can then start thinking about ideal players