Suns Offseason Thread V: I Am My Brother's Kieffer

[NavLDO]

No, fans who say the Suns are a young team, and use that as justification for being mediocre, or proof that we are not a treadmill team, are foolish. Of the 3 young guys on the team last year, only Len was actually in the rotation. This year we will most likely only have two, Len and Warren. The team might have a couple young guys, but the players in the actual rotation are not.

Yes, because Bledsoe, Knight and Kieff are super old and likely to retire in 2-3 years.

Yes they aren't exactly spring chickens with an eternal abundance of untapped potential. At this point of their careers we know exactly the kind of players they are each with their own fatal flaws and they are most likely not going to get much better. Hopefully they plateau rather than regress. This is a terrible core to build around. Except maybe Bled if he cuts his turnovers while maintaining a consistent assist output and eventually elevates his on the ball D to a lockdown All-NBA Defensive level . He also needs to develop a killer instinct to make up for his lack of assertiveness /inability to be a floor general in order for his numbers to be impactful rather than inconsequential garbage time stat stuffing we saw last year.Even then he's only a complimentary piece and a steady sidekick/#3 scoring option on a contender

That's a not true. You need to look at starting experience and stats/metrics trajectory, not just age, when determining a player's growth, and Knight and Bledsoe are still clearly developing. Knight has improved every year over the past 3 years (combined MIL/PHX stats in 2nd link), and Bledsoe has just 2 years starting experience.

http://www.boxscoregeeks.com/players/473-brandon-knight
http://www.boxscoregeeks.com/players?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=knight

Now look at the comparison of EB and Knight to Dragic and Wall--all very close. And while stats don't tell the whole story, they at least provide something concrete to make a comparison.

http://www.boxscoregeeks.com/players/compare?utf8=%E2%9C%93&player_ids%5B%5D=473&player_ids%5B%5D=123&player_ids%5B%5D=102&player_ids%5B%5D=348&season=2014

And now look at Wall's career. He's a good example of a player that has likely plateaued, not EB or Knight.

http://www.boxscoregeeks.com/players/348-john-wall

And then let's not shut Goodwin down yet. Because we signed a D-Leaguer? Really?? He's still here and there has been absolutely no information or news that points to his departure, so why are we basing judgment of our FO on misguided theories and poor analysis. We still have a lot of players that are still developing:

EB
Knight
Len
Goodwin
Warren
Booker (no idea why he was left out of the discussion)
Bogdanovic (next year--let's not forget him)

And possibly Leuer, Teletovic, and Weems, as they are all a bit older, but have very little NBA experience. The only known commodities on this team are Chandler, Tucker, and Price. That's more of an issue than having enough players to develop, and just because they aren't solidly in the rotation means absolutely nothing. You don't want a team that has no veteran players to provide leadership, mentorship, and guidance within the rotation. If you do, and you enjoy watching a team that loses 2 games for every game won, because it's fun to watch a bunch of youngins with ZERO guidance, then by all means, go be a fan of the Sixers. I think Hinkie forgot that the goal of the NBA is to win games, not the draft.

If you want to win games, you don't start more developing talent than veterans. In my view, a team should field no more than 2 players at a time with less than 2 years experience. If we started Goodwin, Booker, Warren, Leuer, and Len, we'd be destroyed, but a lineup of EB, Knight, Tucker, Len, and Chandler would be awesome, and with Len extending his range, I wouldn't be surprised to see Len and Chandler on the floor at the same time for short periods.

[Ettorefm]

I hate the per 36 stat!

That means consistency! Bledsoe is not consistent with his offense !

Well, the per 36 stat is very useful, but only for those that are close to the number. It's almost impossible to predict the impact the player wpould have on 36 minutes - sometimes guys get so many points because they have the stamina to go full on mode, as they are only playing 10-15 minutes.

Sometimes the problem is foul trouble - specially with big men. But all in all, it's very good predicting minute-per-minute production.

We can compare both players and see who brings more in their respective playing time, not comparing raw stats - that's absurd, a guy that plays 4 minutes and scores 4 points has an average of 36 ppg per 36. But we also can say that this low minutes guy impacted scoring more in his time than a guiy playing 20 minutes and scoring 6 (TS% equal for both)

[Sunsdeuce]

I think there's a place for a pass first PG, but at this point in the NBA, they aren't as successful. Curry isn't really pass first, and at some point you need more than 1 guy who can score. OKC has Durant and really no other consistent firepower, which is what makes the fit better to me as well.

That is such a flawed statement its laughable. Put a prime Nash, Stockton, Magic, or any other great on a "current" NBA team and they would still destroy teams. Just 5 years ago, Nash in his late 30s was still carrying the suns. Pass first PG's hardly exist because most kids lack fundamentals. Westbrook is a great athlete and all but has a low IQ and lacks basic fundamentals. Its ALL about him on the court. In a sense, a modern day Iverson. Extremely athletic just doesnt quite grasp team concept. Nash made everyone around him look better (thats a fact and the excuse "really no other consistent firepower" didnt work with nash).

Do I think Westbrook is a fantastic one-one on player, yes. Do I think he can lead a team, no. Will he draw fans, yes. Will he lead teams (as the star player on he team) to championships, no!

On to Bledsoe. He cannot be considered "top tiered" until he gives 100% every game. You get 100% out of bledsoe one out of every 10 games (which is very annoying) and he can't be in the top 3 in the turnover category (No bueno). His shooting is below average for his position. Bledsoe in a nutshell= drive to the basketball, try for a layout, if too many players are in the lane, pass off in desperation, then fall to the ground. Bledsoe is clueless on how to set up teammates.


One very lost art in modern NBA for PGs (especially Bledsoe and Westbrook) is the art of keeping your dribble alive. Players today suck at it. If a play breaks down, PGs need to keep the dribble alive. Modern PGs have no idea on how to set up secondary plays, if plays break down. TBH, the quality of basketball has taken a nose dive in the last 10 years as whole. SOOO much has contributed to it and there is not one specific reason.

[bondom34]

I think there's a place for a pass first PG, but at this point in the NBA, they aren't as successful. Curry isn't really pass first, and at some point you need more than 1 guy who can score. OKC has Durant and really no other consistent firepower, which is what makes the fit better to me as well.

That is such a flawed statement its laughable. Put a prime Nash, Stockton, Magic, or any other great on a "current" NBA team and they would still destroy teams. Just 5 years ago, Nash in his late 30s was still carrying the suns. Pass first PG's hardly exist because most kids lack fundamentals. Westbrook is a great athlete and all but has a low IQ and lacks basic fundamentals. Its ALL about him on the court. In a sense, a modern day Iverson. Extremely athletic just doesnt quite grasp team concept. Nash made everyone around him look better (thats a fact and the excuse "really no other consistent firepower" didnt work with nash).

Do I think Westbrook is a fantastic one-one on player, yes. Do I think he can lead a team, no. Will he draw fans, yes. Will he lead teams (as the star player on he team) to championships, no!

On to Bledsoe. He cannot be considered "top tiered" until he gives 100% every game. You get 100% out of bledsoe one out of every 10 games (which is very annoying) and he can't be in the top 3 in the turnover category (No bueno). His shooting is below average for his position. Bledsoe in a nutshell= drive to the basketball, try for a layout, if too many players are in the lane, pass off in desperation, then fall to the ground. Bledsoe is clueless on how to set up teammates.

So how many pass first PGs have been successful lately? CP3 has been ousted early every year. Curry just won. Kyrie in the finals. Tony Parker is as much a scorer when he was in his prime as a passer. The last successful pass first PG was probably Nash 10 years ago, the game has changed. And I'd refute Westbrook has a low bball IQ and fundamentals, I have zero idea where that's from. And I don't know why he couldn't lead a team to a championship, he's gotten his team closer than CP3 has. And I'd guess you'd take Paul because he's such a brilliant player too.

The reality is WB led a team to the finals at a younger age than Paul ever even got out of the first round. So if you could explain why he couldn't lead a team to a title, please do, though I'm pretty sure you're gonna struggle there. Please name me these pass first PGs who have had this recent success. I've found 2 since 2000, Kidd and Rondo, and one of those 2 happened to have 3 hall of famers with him.

Edit: And did I miss something or has Westbrook actually made it as far in the postseason as either Stockton or Nash? So now you're going back to Magic in the 80s which might as well have been a different league.

[Sunsdeuce]

I think there's a place for a pass first PG, but at this point in the NBA, they aren't as successful. Curry isn't really pass first, and at some point you need more than 1 guy who can score. OKC has Durant and really no other consistent firepower, which is what makes the fit better to me as well.

That is such a flawed statement its laughable. Put a prime Nash, Stockton, Magic, or any other great on a "current" NBA team and they would still destroy teams. Just 5 years ago, Nash in his late 30s was still carrying the suns. Pass first PG's hardly exist because most kids lack fundamentals. Westbrook is a great athlete and all but has a low IQ and lacks basic fundamentals. Its ALL about him on the court. In a sense, a modern day Iverson. Extremely athletic just doesnt quite grasp team concept. Nash made everyone around him look better (thats a fact and the excuse "really no other consistent firepower" didnt work with nash).

Do I think Westbrook is a fantastic one-one on player, yes. Do I think he can lead a team, no. Will he draw fans, yes. Will he lead teams (as the star player on he team) to championships, no!

On to Bledsoe. He cannot be considered "top tiered" until he gives 100% every game. You get 100% out of bledsoe one out of every 10 games (which is very annoying) and he can't be in the top 3 in the turnover category (No bueno). His shooting is below average for his position. Bledsoe in a nutshell= drive to the basketball, try for a layout, if too many players are in the lane, pass off in desperation, then fall to the ground. Bledsoe is clueless on how to set up teammates.

So how many pass first PGs have been successful lately? CP3 has been ousted early every year.

1) Curry just won

. Kyrie in the finals.

2)Parker is as much a scorer when he was in his prime as a passer.

st successful pass first PG was probably Nash 10 years ago, the game has changed.

3) And I'd refute Westbrook has a low bball IQ and fundamentals, I have zero idea where that's from. And I don't know why he couldn't lead a team to a championship, he's gotten his team closer than CP3 has. And I'd guess you'd take Paul because he's such a brilliant player too.

The reality is

4)WB led a team to the finals at a younger age

than Paul ever even got out of the first round. So if you could explain why he couldn't lead a team to a title, please do, though I'm pretty sure you're gonna struggle there. Please name me these pass first PGs who have had this recent success. I've found 2 since 2000, Kidd and Rondo, and one of those 2 happened to have 3 hall of famers with him.

Edit: And did I miss something or has Westbrook actually made it as far in the postseason as either Stockton or Nash? So now you're going back to Magic in the 80s which might as well have been a different league.

1) Curry's team and just about half the western conference could have beaten the Cavs (with all the injuries) with the line-up they had in the finals.
2) Spurs=Duncan. Avery johnson was Duncan's PG at one point. Everyone looks good around duncan.
3) Westbrook is a ballhog. He shoots something like 20-30 shots a game. That is clearly not a trademark of a high IQ PG. And yes I would take a "healthy" Paul over Westbrook anyday. Westbook is what he is. I would never trust him to lead a team. He is a secondary player.
4) Westbrook didnt lead anyone to the finals. Some guy by the name of Durant. You know the guy from your favorite team.

[bondom34]

That is such a flawed statement its laughable. Put a prime Nash, Stockton, Magic, or any other great on a "current" NBA team and they would still destroy teams. Just 5 years ago, Nash in his late 30s was still carrying the suns. Pass first PG's hardly exist because most kids lack fundamentals. Westbrook is a great athlete and all but has a low IQ and lacks basic fundamentals. Its ALL about him on the court. In a sense, a modern day Iverson. Extremely athletic just doesnt quite grasp team concept. Nash made everyone around him look better (thats a fact and the excuse "really no other consistent firepower" didnt work with nash).

Do I think Westbrook is a fantastic one-one on player, yes. Do I think he can lead a team, no. Will he draw fans, yes. Will he lead teams (as the star player on he team) to championships, no!

On to Bledsoe. He cannot be considered "top tiered" until he gives 100% every game. You get 100% out of bledsoe one out of every 10 games (which is very annoying) and he can't be in the top 3 in the turnover category (No bueno). His shooting is below average for his position. Bledsoe in a nutshell= drive to the basketball, try for a layout, if too many players are in the lane, pass off in desperation, then fall to the ground. Bledsoe is clueless on how to set up teammates.

So how many pass first PGs have been successful lately? CP3 has been ousted early every year.

1) Curry just won

. Kyrie in the finals.

2)Parker is as much a scorer when he was in his prime as a passer.

st successful pass first PG was probably Nash 10 years ago, the game has changed.

3) And I'd refute Westbrook has a low bball IQ and fundamentals, I have zero idea where that's from. And I don't know why he couldn't lead a team to a championship, he's gotten his team closer than CP3 has. And I'd guess you'd take Paul because he's such a brilliant player too.

The reality is

4)WB led a team to the finals at a younger age

than Paul ever even got out of the first round. So if you could explain why he couldn't lead a team to a title, please do, though I'm pretty sure you're gonna struggle there. Please name me these pass first PGs who have had this recent success. I've found 2 since 2000, Kidd and Rondo, and one of those 2 happened to have 3 hall of famers with him.

Edit: And did I miss something or has Westbrook actually made it as far in the postseason as either Stockton or Nash? So now you're going back to Magic in the 80s which might as well have been a different league.

1) Curry's team and just about half the western conference could have beaten the Cavs (with all the injuries) with the line-up they had in the finals.
2) Spurs=Duncan. Avery johnson was Duncan's PG at one point. Everyone looks good around duncan.
3) Westbrook is a ballhog. He shoots something like 20-30 shots a game. That is clearly not a trademark of a high IQ PG. And yes I would take a "healthy" Paul over Westbrook anyday. Westbook is what he is. I would never trust him to lead a team. He is a secondary player.
4) Westbrook didnt lead anyone to the finals. Some guy by the name of Durant. You know the guy from your favorite team.

at ballhog. Alright I'm done, that's just flat wrong. He's a fantastic passer and the last ballhog I saw with a nearly 50 percent assist rate was.....well name em. You also managed to make up numbers too, well done! He actually shoots about 15-18ish shots a game when Durant is there. He had a greater effect on the offense than any other player in the league by RPM and BPM.

And your criteria for leading a team seems to shift:
Nash: Had Marion and Amare
Stockton: Malone
Magic: A few guys

But the all "led the team".

So yeah, Westbrook led his team as much as they did.

So you basically just shifted goalposts like mad, well done. You can take CP over Westbrook, and I'll take winning over losing. But feel free to move those goalposts a hair more.

[letsgosuns]

Is this a joke? Westbrook compared to Wall? Westbrook DESTROYS Wall. Westbrook did things last season that were on par with Michael Jordan stat lines. He is in the argument for best player in basketball, not just best point guard. I put him in the category with Lebron, Durant, Curry, and Harden. Wall is a really good point guard but Westbrook is on a different planet compared to him. It is not even close. I am shocked people are comparing the two.

[jcsunsfan]

Is this a joke? Westbrook compared to Wall? Westbrook DESTROYS Wall. Westbrook did things last season that were on par with Michael Jordan stat lines. He is in the argument for best player in basketball, not just best point guard. I put him in the category with Lebron, Durant, Curry, and Harden. Wall is a really good point guard but Westbrook is on a different planet compared to him. It is not even close. I am shocked people are comparing the two.

While I have no argument with the quality of Westbrook as a player (or Harden for that matter). I really struggle to think of them as pg's. They are combo guards at the very least and tend to be more 2's than 1's in my mind. But the whole NBA is going to that. I suppose if MJ were playing today, he would be considered a pg.

[Safety Pickle]

Just ignore Sunsdeuce. Pretty sure half the board has already

[Cutter]

Yeah, Westbrook taking 25-35-40 shots attempts per game is not ball hog territory.

[Twuan89]

Steve Nash

[NaturalBuns]

people gonna find out real quick how good Bledsoe is this year. Nobody saw dragic exploding it took a Bledsoe injury to see what dragic had. Bledsoe has a legit PNR center and more PG responabilities his numbers will go up.

He's just as good as wall if not very slightly worse. If you took wall off that roster last season and replaced him with Bledsoe they still make the playoffs in the east and probably still go just as far.

Throw any stat out the window Bledsoe always going to get shafted by a two PG system or back up PG. This upcoming season is made for him to increase numbers

[saintEscaton]

people gonna find out real quick how good Bledsoe is this year. Nobody saw dragic exploding it took a Bledsoe injury to see what dragic had. Bledsoe has a legit PNR center and more PG responabilities his numbers will go up.

He's just as good as wall if not very slightly worse. If you took wall off that roster last season and replaced him with Bledsoe they still make the playoffs in the east and probably still go just as far.

Throw any stat out the window Bledsoe always going to get shafted by a two PG system or back up PG. This upcoming season is made for him to increase numbers

So would Bled have also shut down Kyle Lowry for an entire series while taking the first two games from the Raptors at their home one of which he had 16 assists in? Yeah I don't think so

[jcsunsfan]

He said that they would have gone just as far. He did not say his stats would be the same.

Bledsoe can be very good. He is not the distributor that wall is but Bled is a top pg defender.

My frustration is that some games he just seems totally out of it. It's like he is stoned some nights.

[Mulhollanddrive]

The single difference that Dragic made between sesaons, was his ability to score from anywhere at any time. He had to the rim, mid range and outside shooting all equally strong. Even though it only incresed his points by 4-5, that's the difference from a top 5 All-Star PG to being one of 10 above average PGs.

So the one barometer is to see if Bledsoe can put up extra shots from outside and make them enough to be able to go to it if defence gives him that. He had opportunities in past games where he was the primary scorer, and didn't take charge. Things like his handle and passing game have room to improve, but probably don't take him to the next level without the all-round scoring threat of the best PGs.

He's that extra step away from being a 20/5/5 player on above-average ORating and DRating (if we play some defence). But if it were that easy there wouldn't be 10 PGs just below at about 17/5 who never achieve that impact.

[bondom34]

Yeah, Westbrook taking 25-35-40 shots attempts per game is not ball hog territory.

Ah,made up stats are the best. He averages about 17, and is a better playmaker than anyone on the team. Yeah, I'll take the guy who's the second best scoring option on the team taking the second most shots on the team. Seems a sensible idea. Unless of course he should have been passing it to Perkins all these years.

[bwgood77]

Ah,made up stats are the best. He averages about 17, and is a better playmaker than anyone on the team. Yeah, I'll take the guy who's the second best scoring option on the team taking the second most shots on the team. Seems a sensible idea. Unless of course he should have been passing it to Perkins all these years.

But but but in games 44 and 80 he averaged 40.5 shots per game...not made up at all... http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westbru01/gamelog/2015/

[bondom34]

Ah,made up stats are the best. He averages about 17, and is a better playmaker than anyone on the team. Yeah, I'll take the guy who's the second best scoring option on the team taking the second most shots on the team. Seems a sensible idea. Unless of course he should have been passing it to Perkins all these years.

But but but in games 44 and 80 he averaged 40.5 shots per game...not made up at all... http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westbru01/gamelog/2015/

And still on about league average TS with the cherry picked games . I can't find the graph, but read an article recently about how insanely efficient he was at his usage.

[bondom34]

Found it:

http://nyloncalculus.com/2015/07/25/scoring-efficiency-by-touch-frequency/

[bwgood77]

Ah,made up stats are the best. He averages about 17, and is a better playmaker than anyone on the team. Yeah, I'll take the guy who's the second best scoring option on the team taking the second most shots on the team. Seems a sensible idea. Unless of course he should have been passing it to Perkins all these years.

But but but in games 44 and 80 he averaged 40.5 shots per game...not made up at all... http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westbru01/gamelog/2015/

And still on about league average TS with the cherry picked games . I can't find the graph, but read an article recently about how insanely efficient he was at his usage.

Yes, he is a stud. I was actually paying close attention when he nearly averaged a triple double for the entire month of March. It was unbelievable. Ignoring the great scorer he is, the assists and rebounds alone put him top tier, and then add the 30 ppg or so...crazy good.