The Tank Debate Thread

[Raps in 4]

I wasn't sure where to post this or if it deserved its own thread. I posted this on another thread as well...

This is a question for everyone, seeing as most people including scouts believe that this coming draft is the
real deal and has future superstars in the making. What if players like Wiggins/Parker don't live up to the hype and
become as good as say, Rudy Gay?

Well, then we'd have a younger Rudy Gay on a cheaper contract. That's a player you can easily move for assets.

[Reignman]

Lastly what is your plan to get Horford or West? These are legit all stars and the Raptors have one player who is appealing to other teams (Valanciunas). So is the trade Valanciunas for Horford? Face it, this team is currently maxed out. You either like it or you don't at this point, and I'm in the "against" camp. Wiggins et al. is just a clean slate and a chance - I think that's all the pro-tankers want.

Picks, we have all of our future 1sts as well as the Knicks 1st. And we have some decent pieces we could send the other way in terms of salary balast (as opposed to dead weight contracts).

For eg. for Horford I'd give up the following:

Raps 2014 1st
Raps 2016 1st
Knicks 2016 1st
Ross
Fillers like Fields to match salaries
**multiple 2nd rounders could be included as well

I'd even give up a guy like Demar if that's what it took instead of Ross/Fields to bring in Horford.

Lowry
Demar
Gay
Horford
JV

Tankers couldn't build a better team than that if they tried.

[Raps in 4]

Lastly what is your plan to get Horford or West? These are legit all stars and the Raptors have one player who is appealing to other teams (Valanciunas). So is the trade Valanciunas for Horford? Face it, this team is currently maxed out. You either like it or you don't at this point, and I'm in the "against" camp. Wiggins et al. is just a clean slate and a chance - I think that's all the pro-tankers want.

Standard anti-tank response:

"Masai is a sly GM. He'll find a way to fleece Atlanta or Indiana"

[StMikes31]

Lastly what is your plan to get Horford or West? These are legit all stars and the Raptors have one player who is appealing to other teams (Valanciunas). So is the trade Valanciunas for Horford? Face it, this team is currently maxed out. You either like it or you don't at this point, and I'm in the "against" camp. Wiggins et al. is just a clean slate and a chance - I think that's all the pro-tankers want.

Picks, we have all of our future 1sts as well as the Knicks 1st. And we have some decent pieces we could send the other way in terms of salary balast (as opposed to dead weight contracts).

For eg. for Horford I'd give up the following:

Raps 2014 1st
Raps 2016 1st
Knicks 2016 1st
Ross
Fillers like Fields to match salaries
**multiple 2nd rounders could be included as well

I'd even give up a guy like Demar if that's what it took instead of Ross/Fields to bring in Horford.

Lowry
Demar
Gay
Horford
JV

Tankers couldn't build a better team than that if they tried.

I'm happy you're not the GM.

Seriously, are you Bryan Colangelo?

[user3000]

Lastly what is your plan to get Horford or West? These are legit all stars and the Raptors have one player who is appealing to other teams (Valanciunas). So is the trade Valanciunas for Horford? Face it, this team is currently maxed out. You either like it or you don't at this point, and I'm in the "against" camp. Wiggins et al. is just a clean slate and a chance - I think that's all the pro-tankers want.

Picks, we have all of our future 1sts as well as the Knicks 1st. And we have some decent pieces we could send the other way in terms of salary balast (as opposed to dead weight contracts).

For eg. for Horford I'd give up the following:

Raps 2014 1st
Raps 2016 1st
Knicks 2016 1st
Ross
Fillers like Fields to match salaries
**multiple 2nd rounders could be included as well

I'd even give up a guy like Demar if that's what it took instead of Ross/Fields to bring in Horford.

Lowry
Demar
Gay
Horford
JV

Tankers couldn't build a better team than that if they tried.

The last thing the Raptors need to do is trade away more first round picks. I think with Colangelo gone it's safe to say the days of acquiring a player for a 1st rounder so that we can maybe make the playoffs are over.

[Tdot24]

What's next, a "FIRE MU" thread?

Some of you will never be happy with anything that happens to this team. New GM, "Oh he doesn't know how to tank"... Signs defensive minded forward, "He's not what this team needs"... lol

[Reignman]

Lastly what is your plan to get Horford or West? These are legit all stars and the Raptors have one player who is appealing to other teams (Valanciunas). So is the trade Valanciunas for Horford? Face it, this team is currently maxed out. You either like it or you don't at this point, and I'm in the "against" camp. Wiggins et al. is just a clean slate and a chance - I think that's all the pro-tankers want.

Picks, we have all of our future 1sts as well as the Knicks 1st. And we have some decent pieces we could send the other way in terms of salary balast (as opposed to dead weight contracts).

For eg. for Horford I'd give up the following:

Raps 2014 1st
Raps 2016 1st
Knicks 2016 1st
Ross
Fillers like Fields to match salaries
**multiple 2nd rounders could be included as well

I'd even give up a guy like Demar if that's what it took instead of Ross/Fields to bring in Horford.

Lowry
Demar
Gay
Horford
JV

Tankers couldn't build a better team than that if they tried.

I'm happy you're not the GM.

Seriously, are you Bryan Colangelo?

The fact that you believe you'll have a team better than that via tanking is everything I need to know about you and your knowledge.

[Reignman]

Lastly what is your plan to get Horford or West? These are legit all stars and the Raptors have one player who is appealing to other teams (Valanciunas). So is the trade Valanciunas for Horford? Face it, this team is currently maxed out. You either like it or you don't at this point, and I'm in the "against" camp. Wiggins et al. is just a clean slate and a chance - I think that's all the pro-tankers want.

Picks, we have all of our future 1sts as well as the Knicks 1st. And we have some decent pieces we could send the other way in terms of salary balast (as opposed to dead weight contracts).

For eg. for Horford I'd give up the following:

Raps 2014 1st
Raps 2016 1st
Knicks 2016 1st
Ross
Fillers like Fields to match salaries
**multiple 2nd rounders could be included as well

I'd even give up a guy like Demar if that's what it took instead of Ross/Fields to bring in Horford.

Lowry
Demar
Gay
Horford
JV

Tankers couldn't build a better team than that if they tried.

The last thing the Raptors need to do is trade away more first round picks. I think with Colangelo gone it's safe to say the days of acquiring a player for a 1st rounder so that we can maybe make the playoffs are over.

Honestly, **** the picks, picks have no tangible value unless the guy you actually get with the pick can be a franchise changer.

Like I said, you can hoard picks all you want but the odds of you building a team better than the one above via tanking is slim to none.

[barrist]

Lastly what is your plan to get Horford or West? These are legit all stars and the Raptors have one player who is appealing to other teams (Valanciunas). So is the trade Valanciunas for Horford? Face it, this team is currently maxed out. You either like it or you don't at this point, and I'm in the "against" camp. Wiggins et al. is just a clean slate and a chance - I think that's all the pro-tankers want.

Picks, we have all of our future 1sts as well as the Knicks 1st. And we have some decent pieces we could send the other way in terms of salary balast (as opposed to dead weight contracts).

For eg. for Horford I'd give up the following:

Raps 2014 1st
Raps 2016 1st
Knicks 2016 1st
Ross
Fillers like Fields to match salaries
**multiple 2nd rounders could be included as well

I'd even give up a guy like Demar if that's what it took instead of Ross/Fields to bring in Horford.

Lowry
Demar
Gay
Horford
JV

Tankers couldn't build a better team than that if they tried.

Wiggins. Done.

[CoachJReturns]

What's next, a "FIRE MU" thread?

Some of you will never be happy with anything that happens to this team. New GM, "Oh he doesn't know how to tank"... Signs defensive minded forward, "He's not what this team needs"... lol

I haven't heard any of us tankers really complain yet. For most of us he's already earned our trust with getting a great return for Andrea. It was the best trade this organization has seen in years and it was only his first! I hope he tanks hard, but I certainly don't want him throwing away assets. If he believed he could get a better deal for Rudy as an expiring next year rather than this year I'd support the wait. We'd just need to trade Lowry for a pick and start a worse point guard. We'd still finish with a crappy record.

[Reignman]

All you tankers were crying about giving up the 1st for Lowry but what the hell did OKC get with that 12th pick?

Maybe a 8th man rotation player if everything goes well? You can get that for the vet minimum or bi-annual exception every summer.

[user3000]

Picks, we have all of our future 1sts as well as the Knicks 1st. And we have some decent pieces we could send the other way in terms of salary balast (as opposed to dead weight contracts).

For eg. for Horford I'd give up the following:

Raps 2014 1st
Raps 2016 1st
Knicks 2016 1st
Ross
Fillers like Fields to match salaries
**multiple 2nd rounders could be included as well

I'd even give up a guy like Demar if that's what it took instead of Ross/Fields to bring in Horford.

Lowry
Demar
Gay
Horford
JV

Tankers couldn't build a better team than that if they tried.

The last thing the Raptors need to do is trade away more first round picks. I think with Colangelo gone it's safe to say the days of acquiring a player for a 1st rounder so that we can maybe make the playoffs are over.

Honestly, **** the picks, picks have no tangible value unless the guy you actually get with the pick can be a franchise changer.

Like I said, you can hoard picks all you want but the odds of you building a team better than the one above via tanking is slim to none.

It's actually gotten humorous reading your posts now. All I'm gonna say is guess how many rounds the following core made it in the playoffs:

Teague
Joe Johnson
Josh Smith
Horford

That's a better one than the Raptors team you made.

[Reignman]

Lastly what is your plan to get Horford or West? These are legit all stars and the Raptors have one player who is appealing to other teams (Valanciunas). So is the trade Valanciunas for Horford? Face it, this team is currently maxed out. You either like it or you don't at this point, and I'm in the "against" camp. Wiggins et al. is just a clean slate and a chance - I think that's all the pro-tankers want.

Picks, we have all of our future 1sts as well as the Knicks 1st. And we have some decent pieces we could send the other way in terms of salary balast (as opposed to dead weight contracts).

For eg. for Horford I'd give up the following:

Raps 2014 1st
Raps 2016 1st
Knicks 2016 1st
Ross
Fillers like Fields to match salaries
**multiple 2nd rounders could be included as well

I'd even give up a guy like Demar if that's what it took instead of Ross/Fields to bring in Horford.

Lowry
Demar
Gay
Horford
JV

Tankers couldn't build a better team than that if they tried.

Wiggins. Done.

Shabazz. Done.

LOL, crystal ball analytics doesn't mean much to me.

I love Wiggins but:

1. We have no way to guarantee the top pick in 2014
2. We don't know how Wiggins will even perform in college
3. We don't know how any of these blue chip prospects will look a year from now
4. Even if they look decent in college, who knows how they will look 3, 4, 5 years down the road
5. Even if Wiggins is the real deal, he's not winning jack on his own and we don't even know how JV will look let alone thinking that's enough

The further we down the road we go the murkier and murkier it gets. Unfortunately "Wiggins. Done" doesn't carry much weight in the real world.

[StMikes31]

Picks, we have all of our future 1sts as well as the Knicks 1st. And we have some decent pieces we could send the other way in terms of salary balast (as opposed to dead weight contracts).

For eg. for Horford I'd give up the following:

Raps 2014 1st
Raps 2016 1st
Knicks 2016 1st
Ross
Fillers like Fields to match salaries
**multiple 2nd rounders could be included as well

I'd even give up a guy like Demar if that's what it took instead of Ross/Fields to bring in Horford.

Lowry
Demar
Gay
Horford
JV

Tankers couldn't build a better team than that if they tried.

I'm happy you're not the GM.

Seriously, are you Bryan Colangelo?

The fact that you believe you'll have a team better than that via tanking is everything I need to know about you and your knowledge.

The fact that a similar team in Atlanta had a very similar ceiling and only hit seeds 6-8 tells me all I need to know about you.

Listen, you're a fake fan and that's fine. You want to keep on that treadmill just to watch this team win a few games and get knocked out of the playoffs every year with no actual shot at a championship. I get your prerogative and that's cool but don't come crying on this board when this team gets dismantled within the year.

[CoachJReturns]

The last thing the Raptors need to do is trade away more first round picks. I think with Colangelo gone it's safe to say the days of acquiring a player for a 1st rounder so that we can maybe make the playoffs are over.

Honestly, **** the picks, picks have no tangible value unless the guy you actually get with the pick can be a franchise changer.

Like I said, you can hoard picks all you want but the odds of you building a team better than the one above via tanking is slim to none.

It's actually gotten humorous reading your posts now. All I'm gonna say is guess how many rounds the following core made it in the playoffs:

Teague
Joe Johnson
Josh Smith
Horford

That's a better one than the Raptors team you made.

I'm just putting that guy on ignore. Anyone who would offer that many picks for Horford isn't worth paying attention to.

[barrist]

All you tankers were crying about giving up the 1st for Lowry but what the hell did OKC get with that 12th pick?

Maybe a 8th man rotation player if everything goes well? You can get that for the vet minimum or bi-annual exception every summer.

Could have gotten Olynyk who's looking pretty good right now.

[roundhead0]

Honestly, **** the picks, picks have no tangible value unless the guy you actually get with the pick can be a franchise changer.

Like I said, you can hoard picks all you want but the odds of you building a team better than the one above via tanking is slim to none.

Not true.

Even guys who are just average starters or rotation players can be important to get via the draft. You get the player on a cheaper contract initially including for seasons where they may actuially be productive above their contract value. You also get them for enough time to get to know each other to see if it's a good fit. You have a better idea of what you are then re-signing, and they have a reason to consider re-signing with you without forcing you to overpay for them. This can help create team stability and having a decent player for a long time can be good for the fanbase.

And you talk about "building a team better than the one above via tanking" but what you also miss is that by giving up the additional first round picks you had better make sure that what you are building now is good enough to be a contender. If it isn't then you have mortgaged the future to really not get anything great now, and so what's the point?

Since we are counting on JV, the time for cashing in other assets to go into a win-now mode should probably wait until he's actually ready to be an important piece. That's why it was potentially foolish to cash in a 1st round pick for Lowry (unless we were certain that we would be keeping him long-term), and that's why it's likely foolish to cash in so many future assets to be better for the next couple of years when a cornerstone of what you are relying on isn't ready yet.

[barrist]

Picks, we have all of our future 1sts as well as the Knicks 1st. And we have some decent pieces we could send the other way in terms of salary balast (as opposed to dead weight contracts).

For eg. for Horford I'd give up the following:

Raps 2014 1st
Raps 2016 1st
Knicks 2016 1st
Ross
Fillers like Fields to match salaries
**multiple 2nd rounders could be included as well

I'd even give up a guy like Demar if that's what it took instead of Ross/Fields to bring in Horford.

Lowry
Demar
Gay
Horford
JV

Tankers couldn't build a better team than that if they tried.

Wiggins. Done.

Shabazz. Done.

LOL, crystal ball analytics doesn't mean much to me.

I love Wiggins but:

1. We have no way to guarantee the top pick in 2014
2. We don't know how Wiggins will even perform in college
3. We don't know how any of these blue chip prospects will look a year from now
4. Even if they look decent in college, who knows how they will look 3, 4, 5 years down the road
5. Even if Wiggins is the real deal, he's not winning jack on his own and we don't even know how JV will look let alone thinking that's enough

The further we down the road we go the murkier and murkier it gets. Unfortunately "Wiggins. Done" doesn't carry much weight in the real world.

Right. But a 34 win team will catapult itself to contender-ship through Instagram group photoshoots in Vegas. Who's using magical thinking here?

[StMikes31]

Honestly, **** the picks, picks have no tangible value unless the guy you actually get with the pick can be a franchise changer.

Like I said, you can hoard picks all you want but the odds of you building a team better than the one above via tanking is slim to none.

It's actually gotten humorous reading your posts now. All I'm gonna say is guess how many rounds the following core made it in the playoffs:

Teague
Joe Johnson
Josh Smith
Horford

That's a better one than the Raptors team you made.

I'm just putting that guy on ignore. Anyone who would offer that many picks for Horford isn't worth paying attention to.

If you haven't already, it's long over due.

[Reignman]

The last thing the Raptors need to do is trade away more first round picks. I think with Colangelo gone it's safe to say the days of acquiring a player for a 1st rounder so that we can maybe make the playoffs are over.

Honestly, **** the picks, picks have no tangible value unless the guy you actually get with the pick can be a franchise changer.

Like I said, you can hoard picks all you want but the odds of you building a team better than the one above via tanking is slim to none.

It's actually gotten humorous reading your posts now. All I'm gonna say is guess how many rounds the following core made it in the playoffs:

Teague
Joe Johnson
Josh Smith
Horford

That's a better one than the Raptors team you made.

So what? That Hawks team was a good playoff team. If you're not in the league of the MIA/SAS/OKC type teams then you fall into the next group which the Hawks were in. I'd definitely be content with a team that good for the next few years because via tanking you're unlikely to make a team as good as MIA/SAS/OKC.

I'd rather not waste 4 or 5 years as a loser lottery team just to build a team that's going to be as good as the one we could make now with a big trade like I suggested.