2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation

[Slim Charless]

The Ayton situation is quite clear to me.

Imagine you are in a big company and there is a huge project coming up. You work hard and pull it off and then ask your boss for that promotion that all your coworkers are getting, but then he says there is no money for it. So you're disappointed but decide to put put in some extra effort anyways. Come the first quarter of the new year you go out there showing off some new skills, putting in the extra work, trying to show everyone you are ready for that promotion. But then your team lead comes over and tells you that you are doing too much, that that's not your job, that its someone else job to do that, go back to your cubicle and keep pounding out spreadsheets.

I don't care who you are, that **** is frikin depressing, and if it happened to me, I'd be looking for another job even if it meant a paycut. Ayton might be trying, but mentally it will affect him.

The real situation is more like this ... a 22-year-old goes to his boss and says "hey do you see companies XYZ and PQR are paying my same-age peers huge bucks. I want huge bucks too. I'll take nothing less than the huge bucks offered by those other companies." The boss explains to the 22-year old that his peers at company XYZ and PQR have won numerous industry awards. Mentoring the youngster the boss suggests areas he can improve his skills so that he can qualify for those awards and says we'll look at a promotion again in a year. The 22-year old goes off and pouts telling anyone who will listen that he's disappointed he didn't get his promotion.

It's a little bit of both. When Ayton tried to score more he got called out (in public) by Monty. When he doesn't score he'll get lit up for being "too passive". Lose-lose situation.

We need to feature a more Ayton centric offense. If this new FT rule continues to nerf guards, it'll shift from being so heavily slanted with perimeter James Harden type of foul baiting, to more inside bigs. We need to use that and start pounding teams.

We'll still have 3 point bombers in Shamet-who will get cleaner looks with DA being dbl/triple teamed.

[LukasBMW]

I actually heard about a sexual harassment issue with Sarver a year ago, but I didn't think much of it because it was just a rumor and it was a "telephone game" situation.

It it's actually true...wow!

I have never liked Sarver, but I also worry about what's behind the next door.

I'm curious to know how serious these charges are. If it's a Donald Sterling type deal, then that's really bad and he deserves to be forced out. However, I'm not really a fan of "cancel culture" over really small missteps that some people tend to make. As Bill Maher recently said, "people talk ****" and this is especially true in sports. Some of the "I'm offended" crap is really ticky tacky. We should stick to worrying about the blatant stuff.

I guess all we can do is wait until the story drops and then see how serious these charges are.

[Mulhollanddrive]

whats the sexual harrassment story?

[Slim Charless]

whats the sexual harrassment story?

That's what we're all waiting on. Since this is 2021 America everyone just focused on the racial aspect of whatever Booby $arver did or didn't do, but this ESPN thing is also supposed to contain damming sexual stuff as well.

Most likely he said something he shouldn't have. I will say that I'm sure it can't be worse than what the Washington (Redskins) were accused of. Jesus

[Desertfox]

The Suns have been quite clear about, 1) They don't want the C to be the focal part of the offense/offensive minded, 2) They don't want to pay the C max money.

So forget about any Ayton for Towns talks, it is not going to happen. Best you can get is Jarrett Allen. Even if we got Towns, they would try to turn him into a rim-running defensive C, which is not his game at all.

[Ghost of Kleine]

I'm dismayed by this talk about trading Ayton. Do any of you really think trading Ayton would make us a better team? I find the idea laughable. Our defense would fall apart. We'd get crushed on the boards. The upside potential of this team would be crippled.

Y'all are planning a path to certain destruction: I guess, for the fun of it? Fortunately, I doubt anyone in this organization is so arrogant to think such ideas are worth entertaining. Ayton's a cornerstone of this franchise and he isn't going anywhere. If he goes, it'll only be a couple years before Mikal Bridges is carrying this franchise to 25 wins a year.

Very true of course!!
And I personally don't think anyone here truly wants to get rid of Ayton or looks forward to the possibility of having to trade him (sans a few people with somewhat misguided perspectives on him currently). But rather, We're postulating the possibilities in a trade to try and find the best available return in efforts to attempt to somewhat sustain our competitiveness post Ayton. Also, I will say that I ( agreeing with BW on this) feel that his drop in statistical production on the offensive end is predominantly due to us underutilizing him and focusing on a guard heavy switch offense. And also that if we actually chose to run the offense primarily through him, We'd have much better percentages on the perimeter ( 3 pt shooting). As well as having a much more engaged Ayton consistently.

I also think that IF ( due to Savers' decision) he does end up getting traded, As you stated we will seriously struggle defensively and will regret it! Which is why I put emphasis on a defensive Big coming back in the deal such as Robinson ( rim running / shotblocking). Now there ( as stated) is no legitimate equal value that we could get back. The closest we could MAYBE get back in terms of comparable offense and rebounding would be Nikola Vucevic (1) but at $22 million salary, and then Jonas Valuncias (2) at $15 million. And Vucevic is obviously lesser defensively, And Valuncias is a slightly stronger rebounder and shotblocker and more physical in the post, But not nearly as fluid and mobile. So then even to get close, We'd need a supplemental follow up trade to bolster the impact. Likely something along the lines of Vucevic and then follow up with getting a Chris Boucher for additional weakside defense. Or with a Valuncias, maybe a follow up trade ( or simply sign in free agency) a Christian Wood? Or maybe

So of course any trade will bring back lesser value due to Aytons' much higher [i]Two way elite upside[/i. This is why ( worst case scenario) IF we HAD TO trade Ayton due to his possibly wanting out over not being utilized correctly (which has been happening), feeling undervalued by the ownership ( which has also happened and has been expressed by Ayton already), or through agent influence towards a more lucrative front loaded deal, situation ( in which he's actually a focal point in the offense) etc.

Thusly, I think that we're looking to explore these hypotheticals more out of concern and anxiety rather than simply for the fun of it.
Lastly, I agree that I don't primarily think certain people in the front office are really that arrogant or guilty of potential "situational ignorance" ASIDE FROM perhaps Saver himself. As Saver has already unfortunately displayed these behavioral issues over the years in various situations. I do see Saver as legitimately being that arrogant to push Ayton out similarly as he did Amare, Due to not valuing big men to the level that Ayton and agent are seeking, or what the market currently dictates. Again, due to his own personal arrogance and situational ignorance. Thinking
That he can easily replace what Ayton brings at a discount, Just like he believed with the Amare scenario. With what will foster similar results.

Kind of a bit of history repeating itself and Saver not really learning from his previous mistakes. And that I believe is the root cause of everyone's anxiety.

[bigfoot]

What recent team has won a chip running their offense through a center? What recent team has won a chip with a dominant defensive center?

[bwgood77]

The Ayton situation is quite clear to me.

Imagine you are in a big company and there is a huge project coming up. You work hard and pull it off and then ask your boss for that promotion that all your coworkers are getting, but then he says there is no money for it. So you're disappointed but decide to put put in some extra effort anyways. Come the first quarter of the new year you go out there showing off some new skills, putting in the extra work, trying to show everyone you are ready for that promotion. But then your team lead comes over and tells you that you are doing too much, that that's not your job, that its someone else job to do that, go back to your cubicle and keep pounding out spreadsheets.

I don't care who you are, that **** is frikin depressing, and if it happened to me, I'd be looking for another job even if it meant a paycut. Ayton might be trying, but mentally it will affect him.

The real situation is more like this ... a 22-year-old goes to his boss and says "hey do you see companies XYZ and PQR are paying my same-age peers huge bucks. I want huge bucks too. I'll take nothing less than the huge bucks offered by those other companies." The boss explains to the 22-year old that his peers at company XYZ and PQR have won numerous industry awards. Mentoring the youngster the boss suggests areas he can improve his skills so that he can qualify for those awards and says we'll look at a promotion again in a year. The 22-year old goes off and pouts telling anyone who will listen that he's disappointed he didn't get his promotion.

Or you can look at it like this:

Those peers have won individual awards while our 22 year old was more of a team player who was one of the keys to getting the team to the finals and helping the company reach greater heights than the ones the peers were at achieving great individual accomplishments.

In a team sport, that is usually more important.

[Slim Charless]

What recent team has won a chip running their offense through a center? What recent team has won a chip with a dominant defensive center?

Giannis and AD both would be centers in any other era. Not the point, but that's a fact. Also, there's absolutely no reason why we can't run packages for him like that. He's just as athletic as both of them and is more durable than Davis.

Have you forgotten his calling card coming out of college? He was an offensive guy, with major flags on the other end.

[bwgood77]

I don't think we should run our offense through our C, but that doesn't mean they couldn't play a big part. Duncan was basically a C though, and with him and Robinson they won 2. But this hasn't really happened since the days of Kareem...and you could argue the early days, outside of when Jordan was retired and Hakeem won a couple and Robinson/Duncan in 99 after Jordan retired again. But the Bucks play best with Giannis at C.

What recent team has won a chip running their offense through a center? What recent team has won a chip with a dominant defensive center?

Milwaukee's best lineup by far is with Giannis at C, though against the Suns they had to make adjustments after Ayton dominated in game 1 with 22/19 on 80% shooting.

On the occasions Mike Budenholzer has seen fit to move Giannis Antetokounmpo to center, the Bucks have been practically unbeatable.

Such lineups have scored 116.5 points per 100 possessions, according to Cleaning the Glass. They've been even better defensively. The Bucks allow the fewest points per 100 possessions in the NBA. The Bucks allow the fewest points per 100 possessions in the NBA, only 102.3 in total. With Antetokounmpo at center, that number tumbles to 94.8.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Chris Haynes (@ChrisBHaynes) Tweeted:
Chris Paul to @YahooSports on advice he instills about inner circles and how he believes Suns will handle expectations now that key teammates are paid - with the exception of Deandre Ayton: “His situation is what it is, but it’s going to work out for him.” https://t.co/PCQfdzXoNi

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[ImNotMcDiSwear]

I don't think we should run our offense through our C, but that doesn't mean they couldn't play a big part. Duncan was basically a C though, and with him and Robinson they won 2. But this hasn't really happened since the days of Kareem...and you could argue the early days, outside of when Jordan was retired and Hakeem won a couple and Robinson/Duncan in 99 after Jordan retired again. But the Bucks play best with Giannis at C.

What recent team has won a chip running their offense through a center? What recent team has won a chip with a dominant defensive center?

Milwaukee's best lineup by far is with Giannis at C, though against the Suns they had to make adjustments after Ayton dominated in game 1 with 22/19 on 80% shooting.

On the occasions Mike Budenholzer has seen fit to move Giannis Antetokounmpo to center, the Bucks have been practically unbeatable.

Such lineups have scored 116.5 points per 100 possessions, according to Cleaning the Glass. They've been even better defensively. The Bucks allow the fewest points per 100 possessions in the NBA. The Bucks allow the fewest points per 100 possessions in the NBA, only 102.3 in total. With Antetokounmpo at center, that number tumbles to 94.8.

To echo - Bigfoot, I don't know how you can argue that Giannis doesn't fit your requirements when he played the majority of Milwaukee's center minutes. Previous year for the Lakers it was AD and Dwight playing those minutes. Previous year the Raptors used Gasol and Ibaka.

Every other champion over the last decade was a team led by Lebron or Curry, or anchored by Duncan. In 2011, the Mavs won with Tyson Chandler playing 32 MPG and Brendan Haywood playing 15 MPG in the playoffs. Kobe got the two championships before that with teams anchored by Andrew Bynum, who was very briefly great. Before that going all the way back to Jordan, the rings all belonged to Duncan and Shaq, the two exceptions the Celtics championship where they played Perk and Garnett at center and the 2004 Pistons with Ben and Rasheed Wallace at center.

If your point is that we wouldn't need Deandre if we'd drafted Luka, whose talent is comparable to Lebron's and Curry's, then your point is well taken. But aside from that, the idea that you can just abandon the center position is baseless. It's true if you have Curry or Lebron on your roster. But if you would trade Duncan for pieces because "you don't need a center in today's game," you're a fool. Talent wins championships, whether it's with exceptional individual talent or collectively with a team. ESPECIALLY if you're going the collective route, you need all your bases covered, because a weakness anywhere will keep you from the promised land.

Ship Deandre off for an ok center and you're left with an ok team, no matter who else you put out there. Because hot take time: CP3 and Booker aren't *that* good. We need strength across the board if we're going to win. And we're simply not going to do better than Deandre Ayton. How good he turns out to be is the essential, critical question upon which this team's future ultimately depends, regardless of what else we do.

[Ghost of Kleine]

I don't think we should run our offense through our C, but that doesn't mean they couldn't play a big part. Duncan was basically a C though, and with him and Robinson they won 2. But this hasn't really happened since the days of Kareem...and you could argue the early days, outside of when Jordan was retired and Hakeem won a couple and Robinson/Duncan in 99 after Jordan retired again. But the Bucks play best with Giannis at C.

What recent team has won a chip running their offense through a center? What recent team has won a chip with a dominant defensive center?

Milwaukee's best lineup by far is with Giannis at C, though against the Suns they had to make adjustments after Ayton dominated in game 1 with 22/19 on 80% shooting.

On the occasions Mike Budenholzer has seen fit to move Giannis Antetokounmpo to center, the Bucks have been practically unbeatable.

Such lineups have scored 116.5 points per 100 possessions, according to Cleaning the Glass. They've been even better defensively. The Bucks allow the fewest points per 100 possessions in the NBA. The Bucks allow the fewest points per 100 possessions in the NBA, only 102.3 in total. With Antetokounmpo at center, that number tumbles to 94.8.

To echo - Bigfoot, I don't know how you can argue that Giannis doesn't fit your requirements when he played the majority of Milwaukee's center minutes. Previous year for the Lakers it was AD and Dwight playing those minutes. Previous year the Raptors used Gasol and Ibaka.

Every other champion over the last decade was a team led by Lebron or Curry, or anchored by Duncan. In 2011, the Mavs won with Tyson Chandler playing 32 MPG and Brendan Haywood playing 15 MPG in the playoffs. Kobe got the two championships before that with teams anchored by Andrew Bynum, who was very briefly great. Before that going all the way back to Jordan, the rings all belonged to Duncan and Shaq, the two exceptions the Celtics championship where they played Perk and Garnett at center and the 2004 Pistons with Ben and Rasheed Wallace at center.

If your point is that we wouldn't need Deandre if we'd drafted Luka, whose talent is comparable to Lebron's and Curry's, then your point is well taken. But aside from that, the idea that you can just abandon the center position is baseless. It's true if you have Curry or Lebron on your roster. But if you would trade Duncan for pieces because "you don't need a center in today's game," you're a fool. Talent wins championships, whether it's with exceptional individual talent or collectively with a team. ESPECIALLY if you're going the collective route, you need all your bases covered, because a weakness anywhere will keep you from the promised land.

Ship Deandre off for an ok center and you're left with an ok team, no matter who else you put out there. Because hot take time: CP3 and Booker aren't *that* good. We need strength across the board if we're going to win. And we're simply not going to do better than Deandre Ayton. How good he turns out to be is the essential, critical question upon which this team's future ultimately depends, regardless of what else we do.

Great point!

[Ghost of Kleine]

Duane Rankin (@DuaneRankin) Tweeted:
"Feet, feet."

Jae Crowder giving Jalen Smith instruction, encouragement. #Suns https://t.co/DaU9xOh0Db

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This is really good to see! Mentoring will be huge for Smith in his role for us.

[NapoleonII]

This quest to save 10-30m by short changing Ayton stands on the edge of a knife. Stray but a little and it will fail, to the ruin of all.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Duane Rankin (@DuaneRankin) Tweeted:
Jae Crowder addresses Robert Sarver allegations, saying team must contr what they can control. #Suns https://t.co/7yCCe3xZcV

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[Ghost of Kleine]

This quest to save 10-30m by short changing Ayton stands on the edge of a knife. Stray but a little and it will fail, to the ruin of all.

LOTR reference...........

[Ghost of Kleine]

Gerald Bourguet (@GeraldBourguet) Tweeted:
Asked Monty about the Suns’ uncharacteristic lapses in their defensive communication, and he brought up an interesting point about conditioning playing a role in that. Said they’ll be getting in “Suns shape” with only 2 games this week https://t.co/JvDHi2BxBY

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[sunsbg]

Some Mavs fans criticize Luka that Harden ball doesn't win championships. At least Ayton was closer to one so far.

[Years90Suns]

I'd love a new owner but I'd be a little surprised if accusations of racism are true. Cheapass? Sure. Uncaring? Sure.

He's never displayed anything around racism from what I can remember.

I guess we'll see where this goes.

I don't get the feeling this is true. It'll be a long battle but I sense he'll be cleared. Perhaps a ton of angry Phoenicians banned together to come up with a story so we could get a new owner..

At first I was excited but if this is all BS, I hope everyone pays for it dearly and Sarver sues everyone

Sent from my SM-G970U using RealGM mobile app

The problem with racism and sexism allegations are that even if they were untrue they can't be "cleared" because they are not a crime...now sexual harrassment sure. If people claim he was that way and that's the way he made them feel, even if he intended it or not, that's too bad.

If you read the statement claiming "some of the things ESPN purports to have happened, etc....it sounds like ESPN gave them a copy of the story for their comment before they run it, probably tomorrow or Sunday....or they wouldn't have written up a defense like that.

This situation sucks because for the Suns to really move forward he almost has to be removed regardless...now of course many would like a new owner but I am not sure in this way and it's not like we are still in the 19-63 days.

But then if he hangs on and fights a legal battle this reputation will hang over Sarver and the team...this stuff takes a while to go away, if ever.

And I never really get into the conspiracy stuff, butif you want to talk about the NBA not wanting a team advancing in the playoffs, beating LeBron, getting to or winning the finals, if Sarver is still in control even if he is fighting a legal battle, they WILL NOT want that to be the continuing story of the playoffs. I still don't think they'd fix games or anything, but they wouldn't want the NBA to be associated with sexism and racism throughout the playoffs....which is why I'm sure they will try to have him removed, unless ESPN pulls the story or somehow it isn't taken seriously.

And some thought they Ayton thing might hang over our heads.

I know many are jumping for joy but I don't see this as a good thing at all.

Even if we the Suns are sold, which is probably likely, there is no guarantee that this owner knows how to run a basketball team and we have one who for all his faults, somehow learned from mistakes unless you think he just somehow stumbled into success (though I guess getting the #1 pick and adding CP3 to your team changes things pretty dramatically just with those two things).

But a new owner would have a lot more money, wouldn't mind paying the tax and just wouldn't meddle or move the team.

It is interesting Schultz broke that a story was coming, the son of the owner of Starbucks an ex owner of the Sonics who sold to Bennett not expecting him to up and move the team out of Seattle.

WHAT IF it is the league or any other entity with an interest in having Sarver removed...?
Not that I am sure of any particular entity or person, but also can guess there are interests flying around and particular situations that could be best solved with a different owner...