DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 (FINAL poll reset)

[Pantsman]

Bigs who can’t guard in space should be disqualified. How many times do we have to watch a big dpoy crap the bed in the playoffs because they can’t play on the outside?

[Roger Murdock]

Its crazy to me Mobley is 50:1 when he leads the league in DWS and the Cavs have the #1 defense in the NBA and one of the best records.

It feels too early for a heavy favorite and JJJ, Mobley, Adebayo, and Giannis should all be close at the top.

[yoyoboy]

Its crazy to me Mobley is 50:1 when he leads the league in DWS and the Cavs have the #1 defense in the NBA and one of the best records.

It feels too early for a heavy favorite and JJJ, Mobley, Adebayo, and Giannis should all be close at the top.

Defensive awards are more narrative-based and reputation-based than any of the others imo. It feels like coming out strong early is critical to actually being in the discussion. Plus the Cavs are never on national TV so it’s not like the team is getting attention. I actually don’t see either of Mobley or Allen even getting voted to an All-Defensive Team. If I had to guess, I’d say it’ll be JJJ, Lopez, Adebayo, Giannis, Anunoby, and Claxton most likely. And guys like Draymond and Embiid will probably be favored as well.

I’d rather finish with the best defense in the league though than see anyone on the team win any particular awards, so it doesn’t matter to me.

[Roger Murdock]

Its crazy to me Mobley is 50:1 when he leads the league in DWS and the Cavs have the #1 defense in the NBA and one of the best records.

It feels too early for a heavy favorite and JJJ, Mobley, Adebayo, and Giannis should all be close at the top.

Defensive awards are more narrative-based and reputation-based than any of the others imo. It feels like coming out strong early is critical to actually being in the discussion. Plus the Cavs are never on national TV so it’s not like the team is getting attention. I actually don’t see either of Mobley or Allen even getting voted to an All-Defensive Team. If I had to guess, I’d say it’ll be JJJ, Lopez, Adebayo, Giannis, Anunoby, and Claxton most likely. And guys like Draymond and Embiid will probably be favored as well.

I’d rather finish with the best defense in the league though than see anyone on the team win any particular awards, so it doesn’t matter to me.

I wouldnt be shocked although Mobley not making an all defense team would be genuinely insane.

[bisme37]

I was leaning JJJ for DPOY but dude fouls out of way too many games and it appears that Steven Adams is the more indispensable big in Memphis.

Honestly have no idea who the front runner is at this point. I guess I'd vote for Mobley or Allen if the Cavs still have the best defense as the season goes on.

A ton of good defenders on my Celtics but I don't know how you choose one over the others.

[cupcakesnake]

I was leaning JJJ for DPOY but dude fouls out of way too many games and it appears that Steven Adams is the more indispensable big in Memphis.

Honestly have no idea who the front runner is at this point. I guess I'd vote for Mobley or Allen if the Cavs still have the best defense as the season goes on.

A ton of good defenders on my Celtics but I don't know how you choose one over the others.

He's fouled out of 3 games and overall his foul rate has been down this year (though it's creeping back up to last year levels, which were still an improvement. Steven Adams seems to be more important to their offense than their defense. With Adams as the lone big, the Grizzlies have a 120 Ortg and a pedestrian 113 Drtg. Trip is at 117 Ortg and an eye-popping 110 Drtg. They're at their best overall with both players there the overall net rating on/off likes Trip more than Adams +11.7 vs. +7.7.

I do want Boston fans to rally around a single Celtic to make the discussion a little more interesting, but I agree I don't know how to choose one over any of the others. I think their bigs are still their best defenders.

[bisme37]

I was leaning JJJ for DPOY but dude fouls out of way too many games and it appears that Steven Adams is the more indispensable big in Memphis.

Honestly have no idea who the front runner is at this point. I guess I'd vote for Mobley or Allen if the Cavs still have the best defense as the season goes on.

A ton of good defenders on my Celtics but I don't know how you choose one over the others.

He's fouled out of 3 games and overall his foul rate has been down this year (though it's creeping back up to last year levels, which were still an improvement. Steven Adams seems to be more important to their offense than their defense. With Adams as the lone big, the Grizzlies have a 120 Ortg and a pedestrian 113 Drtg. Trip is at 117 Ortg and an eye-popping 110 Drtg. They're at their best overall with both players there the overall net rating on/off likes Trip more than Adams +11.7 vs. +7.7.

I do want Boston fans to rally around a single Celtic to make the discussion a little more interesting, but I agree I don't know how to choose one over any of the others. I think their bigs are still their best defenders.

Thanks for the correction and sorry for the exaggeration.

I remain turned off by the number of games he finds himself in foul trouble. That's not DPOY for me.

[Dacost]

I was leaning JJJ for DPOY but dude fouls out of way too many games and it appears that Steven Adams is the more indispensable big in Memphis.

Honestly have no idea who the front runner is at this point. I guess I'd vote for Mobley or Allen if the Cavs still have the best defense as the season goes on.

A ton of good defenders on my Celtics but I don't know how you choose one over the others.

He's fouled out of 3 games and overall his foul rate has been down this year (though it's creeping back up to last year levels, which were still an improvement. Steven Adams seems to be more important to their offense than their defense. With Adams as the lone big, the Grizzlies have a 120 Ortg and a pedestrian 113 Drtg. Trip is at 117 Ortg and an eye-popping 110 Drtg. They're at their best overall with both players there the overall net rating on/off likes Trip more than Adams +11.7 vs. +7.7.

I do want Boston fans to rally around a single Celtic to make the discussion a little more interesting, but I agree I don't know how to choose one over any of the others. I think their bigs are still their best defenders.

Thanks for the correction and sorry for the exaggeration.

I remain turned off by the number of games he finds himself in foul trouble. That's not DPOY for me.

Boo you bacially saw yesterday game(saw a few other people saying the same) and came to that conclusion that's a weak take.

Adams is an average Defender and that's been know for years now which makes it even worst.

Sry for the hate but lazy takes like those irritated me.

[cupcakesnake]

I was leaning JJJ for DPOY but dude fouls out of way too many games and it appears that Steven Adams is the more indispensable big in Memphis.

Honestly have no idea who the front runner is at this point. I guess I'd vote for Mobley or Allen if the Cavs still have the best defense as the season goes on.

A ton of good defenders on my Celtics but I don't know how you choose one over the others.

He's fouled out of 3 games and overall his foul rate has been down this year (though it's creeping back up to last year levels, which were still an improvement. Steven Adams seems to be more important to their offense than their defense. With Adams as the lone big, the Grizzlies have a 120 Ortg and a pedestrian 113 Drtg. Trip is at 117 Ortg and an eye-popping 110 Drtg. They're at their best overall with both players there the overall net rating on/off likes Trip more than Adams +11.7 vs. +7.7.

I do want Boston fans to rally around a single Celtic to make the discussion a little more interesting, but I agree I don't know how to choose one over any of the others. I think their bigs are still their best defenders.

Thanks for the correction and sorry for the exaggeration.

I remain turned off by the number of games he finds himself in foul trouble. That's not DPOY for me.

Ya it's fair to point out that weakness. Though he's improved in this area, it's still not a positive for him. He's having the biggest block % season of all-time (well, probably besides the uncounted Wilt and Russell years) so there is a tradeoff of being that ridiculous high volume of a shot blocker. But it's not quite in a nice harmonious balance. Trip fouls too much, and I'd probably rather see that block percentage down a couple of ticks if it came with a lot less fouls.

I think the other candidates are narratively held back by playing together. Giannis, Brook, Allen, and Mobley face the mini conundrum that your Celtics face at the team level. Multiple DPOY candidates hurting each others' cases.

[Klomp]

Read on Twitter

[benhillboy]

Alex Caruso now leads the league in:

Defensive RAPTOR
Defensive EPM
Defensive Luck-Adjusted RAPM

I haven’t watched him much this year. Is the eye test backing all of this up?

I think he's the best POA defensive guard in the NBA. He also does all the little things in terms of guard help defense. He really knows when to dig, when to help/double, stunt etc. He knows when to follow the ball and when to stick to his man. He's so high intensity and tough without making too many risky mistakes. He's basically the anchor of a league average defense despite playing mostly off the bench and being on a team built around multiple defensive sieves. There are other good defenders in Chicago (Patrick Williams is one), and Bill Donovan is a very good defensive coach, but Caruso is clearly his work horse on that end.

I'm not sure why these catch-all stats love him this much, but in terms of guards at least I think Caruso is the best.

When I watched him in their last game versus the Hawks he controlled every minute of the first quarter once he got in, and pretty casually. He combines defensive tenacity with instincts and IQ so seamlessly especially if his opponents aren’t the most intelligent. Those same players he then can manipulate to score his garbage points upon. He can literally bend an opposing offense to his will at times.

Advanced metrics are always gonna love guards who can press effectively, navigate screens beautifully (and variably), kill passing lanes, and help maintain box out integrity, as they should. I can watch he and Delon Wright defend with my feet kicked up and a bowl of popcorn all day. Both with a career Center-like 109 defensive rating. Delon +9 in offensive rating though. Have I ever mentioned I’m a Delon Wright fanatic? No? “I’m a Delon Wright fanatic.”

What’s so crazy is Kawhi has clearly dropped off defensively over the last few years, his career defensive rating is still 102 wtf. He might as well have pulled out a .22 caliber pistol from his shorts and shot opposing offensive players lol.

I’d probably be one of those loathsome contrarians and give Donovan Mitchell an All Defensive vote. The way he’s bought in to their team concept after being so indifferent his whole career up to this point is extremely impressive. Same 110 defensive rating as Okoro, who by some miracle also sports a 120 O Rating.

[TwolvesFanRome]

J.McDaniels is a name.

[cupcakesnake]

. I actually don’t see either of Mobley or Allen even getting voted to an All-Defensive Team. If I had to guess, I’d say it’ll be JJJ, Lopez, Adebayo, Giannis, Anunoby, and Claxton most likely. And guys like Draymond and Embiid will probably be favored as well.

While it's certainly possible due to how few spots there are on the team and how many great defensive bigs there are... this would suck. That frontcourt is one of the best things happening in NBA defense. The return of the twin towers.

[cupcakesnake]

Alex Caruso now leads the league in:

Defensive RAPTOR
Defensive EPM
Defensive Luck-Adjusted RAPM

I haven’t watched him much this year. Is the eye test backing all of this up?

I think he's the best POA defensive guard in the NBA. He also does all the little things in terms of guard help defense. He really knows when to dig, when to help/double, stunt etc. He knows when to follow the ball and when to stick to his man. He's so high intensity and tough without making too many risky mistakes. He's basically the anchor of a league average defense despite playing mostly off the bench and being on a team built around multiple defensive sieves. There are other good defenders in Chicago (Patrick Williams is one), and Bill Donovan is a very good defensive coach, but Caruso is clearly his work horse on that end.

I'm not sure why these catch-all stats love him this much, but in terms of guards at least I think Caruso is the best.

When I watched him in their last game versus the Hawks he controlled every minute of the first quarter once he got in, and pretty casually. He combines defensive tenacity with instincts and IQ so seamlessly especially if his opponents aren’t the most intelligent. Those same players he then can manipulate to score his garbage points upon. He can literally bend an opposing offense to his will at times.

Advanced metrics are always gonna love guards who can press effectively, navigate screens beautifully (and variably), kill passing lanes, and help maintain box out integrity, as they should. I can watch he and Delon Wright defend with my feet kicked up and a bowl of popcorn all day. Both with a career Center-like 109 defensive rating. Delon +9 in offensive rating though. Have I ever mentioned I’m a Delon Wright fanatic? No? “I’m a Delon Wright fanatic.”

What’s so crazy is Kawhi has clearly dropped off defensively over the last few years, his career defensive rating is still 102 wtf. He might as well have pulled out a .22 caliber pistol from his shorts and shot opposing offensive players lol.

I’d probably be one of those loathsome contrarians and give Donovan Mitchell an All Defensive vote. The way he’s bought in to their team concept after being so indifferent his whole career up to this point is extremely impressive. Same 110 defensive rating as Okoro, who by some miracle also sports a 120 O Rating.

I like everything about this post except for the last part. Donovan deserves credit for his defense and should shed the reputation he earned in Utah as a bad defender. The giant backline and multiple rim protectors allows the Cavs guards to be more aggressive and take more risks, and Mitchell has taken full advantage to get back to looking more like the defender he was in college. But an all-defense vote is a lot when there are guards like Caruso, Smart, Jrue, Derrick White, your main man Delon Wright (leading the NBA is steal %!), De'Anthony Melton, Herb Jones, Ben Simmons, Lu Dort, Dejounte, KCP, Bruce Brown, Aaron Holiday, Dyson Daniels, Alvarado. On top of all those great defensive guards, I always hope some wing defenders are guard eligible (so as to make more room for forwards on the all-defense team) so I hope guys like OG, Jaden McDaniels, Mikal Bridges are eligible here. You can give Mitchell his due while also admitting there are 15-30 guys more deserving of an all-defense spot and knowing there are only 2-4 spots for guards.

I have to admit the Wizards are probably my least-watched team of the year so I've been missing the Delon Wright experience. But he's been one of my favorite role-playing guards going back to his rookie year. His shooting and scoring never came along well enough for him to be a full-time starter, but his defense keeps improving. I used to yell at the screen when McMillan would sub in Lou Williams instead of Delon Wright. Like I said, I haven't watched this year, but the defense must be up another notch looking at that insane steal rate. It's a small sample size (27 games) and a career outlier, but I've started to hear people noticing.

You Caruso eye test matches mine. I'm not sure I've ever watched a guard defender that was both so cerebral and so high-motor. He's super tough and maniacally focused. This might be a bit sensational to say but I think he might be the best guard defender I've watched extensively.

[benhillboy]

I think he's the best POA defensive guard in the NBA. He also does all the little things in terms of guard help defense. He really knows when to dig, when to help/double, stunt etc. He knows when to follow the ball and when to stick to his man. He's so high intensity and tough without making too many risky mistakes. He's basically the anchor of a league average defense despite playing mostly off the bench and being on a team built around multiple defensive sieves. There are other good defenders in Chicago (Patrick Williams is one), and Bill Donovan is a very good defensive coach, but Caruso is clearly his work horse on that end.

I'm not sure why these catch-all stats love him this much, but in terms of guards at least I think Caruso is the best.

When I watched him in their last game versus the Hawks he controlled every minute of the first quarter once he got in, and pretty casually. He combines defensive tenacity with instincts and IQ so seamlessly especially if his opponents aren’t the most intelligent. Those same players he then can manipulate to score his garbage points upon. He can literally bend an opposing offense to his will at times.

Advanced metrics are always gonna love guards who can press effectively, navigate screens beautifully (and variably), kill passing lanes, and help maintain box out integrity, as they should. I can watch he and Delon Wright defend with my feet kicked up and a bowl of popcorn all day. Both with a career Center-like 109 defensive rating. Delon +9 in offensive rating though. Have I ever mentioned I’m a Delon Wright fanatic? No? “I’m a Delon Wright fanatic.”

What’s so crazy is Kawhi has clearly dropped off defensively over the last few years, his career defensive rating is still 102 wtf. He might as well have pulled out a .22 caliber pistol from his shorts and shot opposing offensive players lol.

I’d probably be one of those loathsome contrarians and give Donovan Mitchell an All Defensive vote. The way he’s bought in to their team concept after being so indifferent his whole career up to this point is extremely impressive. Same 110 defensive rating as Okoro, who by some miracle also sports a 120 O Rating.

I like everything about this post except for the last part. Donovan deserves credit for his defense and should shed the reputation he earned in Utah as a bad defender. The giant backline and multiple rim protectors allows the Cavs guards to be more aggressive and take more risks, and Mitchell has taken full advantage to get back to looking more like the defender he was in college. But an all-defense vote is a lot when there are guards like Caruso, Smart, Jrue, Derrick White, your main man Delon Wright (leading the NBA is steal %!), De'Anthony Melton, Herb Jones, Ben Simmons, Lu Dort, Dejounte, KCP, Bruce Brown, Aaron Holiday, Dyson Daniels, Alvarado. On top of all those great defensive guards, I always hope some wing defenders are guard eligible (so as to make more room for forwards on the all-defense team) so I hope guys like OG, Jaden McDaniels, Mikal Bridges are eligible here. You can give Mitchell his due while also admitting there are 15-30 guys more deserving of an all-defense spot and knowing there are only 2-4 spots for guards.

I have to admit the Wizards are probably my least-watched team of the year so I've been missing the Delon Wright experience. But he's been one of my favorite role-playing guards going back to his rookie year. His shooting and scoring never came along well enough for him to be a full-time starter, but his defense keeps improving. I used to yell at the screen when McMillan would sub in Lou Williams instead of Delon Wright. Like I said, I haven't watched this year, but the defense must be up another notch looking at that insane steal rate. It's a small sample size (27 games) and a career outlier, but I've started to hear people noticing.

You Caruso eye test matches mine. I'm not sure I've ever watched a guard defender that was both so cerebral and so high-motor. He's super tough and maniacally focused. This might be a bit sensational to say but I think he might be the best guard defender I've watched extensively.

It was a bit tongue in cheek lol, I know he isn’t deserving just wanted to give Mitchell some due. I thought for sure he’d step on Garland’s toes and infuriate Evan and Jarrett with poor defensive effort and offensive tunnel vision. None of that seems to be the case but a Cavs fan would know much better than I.

I wouldn’t know Jaden McDaniels or Dyson Daniels from a can of paint, I’m super intrigued about the former after he appears at the top of that perimeter difficulty metric. Melton has made great strides. People trash Ben Simmons, some of it warranted of course, but he still can lock down with ease.

It seems in metrics and the few games I’ve seen Herb Jones took a step back and is just now starting to get back on the very optimistic Scottie Pippen-like incline I had him on. Did his offensive struggles carry over to defense? He’s currently at a 111 defensive rating and +1.8 box, much more feasible for him than where he was earlier. At his best he should be around 108 and about +2.3. Maybe Willie Green increased his workload against main options a bit prematurely? Alvarado was leading the league in on court about a month ago, now he’s dropped to 34th I think. Still obviously a sensational defender.

Who’s at the top of on court as it stands today? Jokic, Gordon, and KCP 1,2,3. That’s insane. All criminally underrated as defenders even if I was never that enamored with KCP.

Tyus Jones leads the league in defensive plays per foul by a huge margin (2.73 to Jimmy Butler’s AND Tyrese Haliburton’s(!) 1.85). I’ve never know him as a notable man defender but he’s obviously smart and opportunistic as hell and using Dillon Brooks and JJJ’s workloads to his advantage.

Gotta give Harden some props, he’s been a great team defender under Doc. I loved him with OKC, couldn’t stomach watching him play on either end in Houston.

[bisme37]

He's fouled out of 3 games and overall his foul rate has been down this year (though it's creeping back up to last year levels, which were still an improvement. Steven Adams seems to be more important to their offense than their defense. With Adams as the lone big, the Grizzlies have a 120 Ortg and a pedestrian 113 Drtg. Trip is at 117 Ortg and an eye-popping 110 Drtg. They're at their best overall with both players there the overall net rating on/off likes Trip more than Adams +11.7 vs. +7.7.

I do want Boston fans to rally around a single Celtic to make the discussion a little more interesting, but I agree I don't know how to choose one over any of the others. I think their bigs are still their best defenders.

Thanks for the correction and sorry for the exaggeration.

I remain turned off by the number of games he finds himself in foul trouble. That's not DPOY for me.

Boo you bacially saw yesterday game(saw a few other people saying the same) and came to that conclusion that's a weak take.

Adams is an average Defender and that's been know for years now which makes it even worst.

Sry for the hate but lazy takes like those irritated me.

I already apologized for my post but I am sorry for annoying you personally.

I def got caught slipping with my comment and I'm not pleased with myself. I watch an unhealthy amount of NBA basketball including MEM and I wasn't basing my take on just one game, but you're right that I let a small sample of games overly impact my opinion. I also watched a segment on TV recently about his foul trouble and it was on my mind partly because of that.

But I should have just said what I said the 2nd time, that JJJ's fouling makes me a little down on him as the DPOY. I exaggerated the issue but it is an issue. Cheers.

[cupcakesnake]

Thanks for the correction and sorry for the exaggeration.

I remain turned off by the number of games he finds himself in foul trouble. That's not DPOY for me.

Boo you bacially saw yesterday game(saw a few other people saying the same) and came to that conclusion that's a weak take.

Adams is an average Defender and that's been know for years now which makes it even worst.

Sry for the hate but lazy takes like those irritated me.

I already apologized for my post but I am sorry for annoying you personally.

I def got caught slipping with my comment and I'm not pleased with myself. I watch an unhealthy amount of NBA basketball including MEM and I wasn't basing my take on just one game, but you're right that I let a small sample of games overly impact my opinion. I also watched a segment on TV recently about his foul trouble and it was on my mind partly because of that.

But I should have just said what I said the 2nd time, that JJJ's fouling makes me a little down on him as the DPOY. I exaggerated the issue but it is an issue. Cheers.

I think since JJJ has sort of cemented himself as a frontrunner, it's good to be critical of his case. Too many people don't care for defense so once there is a frontrunner they're happy leaving it at that unless a new narrative emerges. I dunno, even if you see a game and JJJ wasn't looking sharp I think that's fair to comment on, because too often we crystallize our idea on a player. Defense is harder to track with stats. So I think specifically commenting on watching the guy play is worthwhile.

[yoyoboy]

Rob Williams comes in at #3 on NBA.com’s DPOY ladder. He’s played 27 percent of the minutes Mobley has played this season.

Like I said, the award is as unserious as it gets, and all about narrative and reputation. Most of the voters don’t even watch the teams who aren’t broadcast on national TV most nights.

[mrmsix6]

Should have been obivous to everyone that DPOY is a fraudulent award when freaking Marcus Smart won it last year.

[Triple M]

Rob Williams comes in at #3 on NBA.com’s DPOY ladder. He’s played 27 percent of the minutes Mobley has played this season.

Like I said, the award is as unserious as it gets, and all about narrative and reputation. Most of the voters don’t even watch the teams who aren’t broadcast on national TV most nights.

I dont think Rob derseves mention at all. His rebounding has been good but i dont think his defense has been great i would rate it closer to just ok but he does alter opposing players desicion to drive.