Political Roundtable - Part VII

[fishercob]

Slavery has been around since the dawn of history and has been practices by most societies. It has been the norm for all time except the past 200 years. The irony is that it was White European ethics that inspired the repudiation of slavery in the modern era. If not for that mindset, there would still still be slaves in America today. Indeed, there is slavery today everywhere except in those nations that are culturally European (plus the Japanese and Koreans).

As the great great grandson of slaves—my great great grandmother Lucy Ann Jackson and my great great grandfather Squire Jackson were slaves on the Rhodes Plantation in Nelson Co., Va.—I find disgusting your attempt to somehow justify American slavery (and the denigration of my ancestors humanity) because it was the "norm.”

Whatever. Every society has endured slavery at some point in time. I have Scottish ancestry and they were enslaved and exploited by the British as late as the 1600's, and by the Roman Empire before them. My Finnish ancestors were enslaved throughout the Middle Ages by the Crimean Muslims up to the late 16th century. Why is it that of all the slavery that has existed throughout history, between so many cultures, it is only African Americans who get reparations? What makes them so special?

The business of other countries is the business of other countries. In this country, black people were brought here in chains, enslaved, denied basic human rights, subject to Jim Crow, etc. The legacy of all of that lives on this day. Anyone who doesn't admit to seeing that is making a conscious choice not to do so.

Saying "but he did it to" is a pathetic argument, especially when talking about moral transgressions and not just legal ones.

[fishercob]

As the great great grandson of slaves—my great great grandmother Lucy Ann Jackson and my great great grandfather Squire Jackson were slaves on the Rhodes Plantation in Nelson Co., Va.—I find disgusting your attempt to somehow justify American slavery (and the denigration of my ancestors humanity) because it was the "norm.”

Whatever. Every society has endured slavery at some point in time. I have Scottish ancestry and they were enslaved and exploited by the British as late as the 1600's, and by the Roman Empire before them. My Finnish ancestors were enslaved throughout the Middle Ages by the Crimean Muslims up to the late 16th century. Why is it that all of all the slavery that has existed throughout history, between so many cultures, it is only African Americans who get reparations? What makes them so special?

It will never happen in the DR, both DR and Spain are broke.

The demographics of the U.S. are vastly different than in the 1800s. Carribbeans, South Americas, SE Asians, Eastern Europeans simply weren't here when this occurred. This isn't South Africa 1990 vs 2010.

Making descendants of hard working immigrant families of the past 100 years pay for "reparations" when they are 3 generations removed is illogical. Do Dominican Americans get paid? We are after all, also descendants of slavery? Haitians? Panamanians etc?

It's a rabbit hole, I'd prefer to work towards my own success. I have every opportunity to do so.

You've never mentioned this.

[nate33]

Those same "White European ethics" slaughtered the native Americans and have left their society in ruins to this day (my wife worked with the board of Indian Education -- what a complete sh*t show). I don't buy White ethics inspiring the end of modern slavery. The concept of going from slavery to freedom is in the Old Testament.

This notion that the decline of native Americans is some kind of holocaust needs to end too.

The narrative now is that Native Americans were a peaceful and happy society living in harmony alongside other tribes. This is categorically false. Native American tribes were constantly at war with each other, fighting for territory and resources. That what life does to survive. It's just that when the Europeans came, they were better at it. There was nothing uniquely evil about the arrival of the Europeans.

Good point about the Old Testament though. All of society owes a great debt to the Hebrews who first came up with the notion that people are by nature free and are required to serve only God. Serving any man is optional. But the institutional outlawing of slavery did not become widespread until the Renaissance and Enlightenment in Western Europe.

[fishercob]

Those same "White European ethics" slaughtered the native Americans and have left their society in ruins to this day (my wife worked with the board of Indian Education -- what a complete sh*t show). I don't buy White ethics inspiring the end of modern slavery. The concept of going from slavery to freedom is in the Old Testament.

This notion that the decline of native Americans is some kind of holocaust needs to end too.

The narrative now is that Native Americans were a peaceful and happy society living in harmony alongside other tribes. This is categorically false. Native American tribes were constantly at war with each other, fighting for territory and resources. That what life does to survive. It's just that when the Europeans came, they were better at it. There was nothing uniquely evil about the arrival of the Europeans.

That the natives fought with and killed one another absolves colonizing slaughterers of nothing.

Good point about the Old Testament though. All of society owes a great debt to the Hebrews who first came up with the notion that people are by nature free and are required to serve only God. Serving any man is optional. But the institutional outlawing of slavery did not become widespread until the Renaissance and Enlightenment in Western Europe.

I'm sure the concept showed up in Eastern religions too.

[nate33]

Those same "White European ethics" slaughtered the native Americans and have left their society in ruins to this day (my wife worked with the board of Indian Education -- what a complete sh*t show). I don't buy White ethics inspiring the end of modern slavery. The concept of going from slavery to freedom is in the Old Testament.

This notion that the decline of native Americans is some kind of holocaust needs to end too.

The narrative now is that Native Americans were a peaceful and happy society living in harmony alongside other tribes. This is categorically false. Native American tribes were constantly at war with each other, fighting for territory and resources. That what life does to survive. It's just that when the Europeans came, they were better at it. There was nothing uniquely evil about the arrival of the Europeans.

That the natives fought with and killed one another absolves colonizing slaughterers of nothing.

So it's only evil if Europeans do it?

Do you not see the double standard? When everyone else enslaves people, it's water under the bridge. When Americans do it (with the assistance of Black Africans), reparations are in order. If Native Americans slaughter each other endlessly, it's no big deal. Nobody cares at all. If Europeans do it, it's another holocaust.

If Native Americans ended up winning the struggle, do you think they would have been nice enough to set aside reservations for the nice colonists?

[fishercob]

This notion that the decline of native Americans is some kind of holocaust needs to end too.

The narrative now is that Native Americans were a peaceful and happy society living in harmony alongside other tribes. This is categorically false. Native American tribes were constantly at war with each other, fighting for territory and resources. That what life does to survive. It's just that when the Europeans came, they were better at it. There was nothing uniquely evil about the arrival of the Europeans.

That the natives fought with and killed one another absolves colonizing slaughterers of nothing.

So it's only evil if Europeans do it?

Do you not see the double standard? When everyone else enslaves people, it's water under the bridge. When Americans do it (with the assistance of Black Africans), reparations are in order. If Native Americans slaughter each other endlessly, it's no big deal. Nobody cares at all. If Europeans do it, it's another holocaust.

If Native Americans ended up winning the struggle, do you think they would have been nice enough to set aside reservations for the nice colonists?

The Germans paid Israel reparations following The Holocaust.

ANd no, I don't see a double standard because you're not making apples to apples comparisons and no two situations are alike. I don't think the fact that Africans were brought here against their will can be stressed enough. This wasn't a territory conflict as is common throughout world history.

If Native Americans had won the struggle against European colonizers, they would have done just that. They got slaughtered, and we put Andrew Jackson on the $20 bill.

[DCZards]

As the great great grandson of slaves—my great great grandmother Lucy Ann Jackson and my great great grandfather Squire Jackson were slaves on the Rhodes Plantation in Nelson Co., Va.—I find disgusting your attempt to somehow justify American slavery (and the denigration of my ancestors humanity) because it was the "norm.”

Whatever. Every society has endured slavery at some point in time. I have Scottish ancestry and they were enslaved and exploited by the British as late as the 1600's, and by the Roman Empire before them. My Finnish ancestors were enslaved throughout the Middle Ages by the Crimean Muslims up to the late 16th century. Why is it that of all the slavery that has existed throughout history, between so many cultures, it is only African Americans who get reparations? What makes them so special?

The business of other countries is the business of other countries. In this country, black people were brought here in chains, enslaves, denied basic human rights, subject to Jim Crow, etc. The legacy of all of that lives on this day. Anyone who doesn't admit to seeing that is making a conscious choice not to do so.

Saying "but he did it to" is a pathetic argument, especially when talking about moral transgressions and not just legal ones.

Thanks, fisherchob. I don't know quite how to respond to Nate's callousness...which kinda leaves me speechless.

But then again it's a message board, and I guess anything goes as long as you don't write long, rambling posts like hands did. So do your thing, Nate.

[nate33]

The Germans paid Israel reparations following The Holocaust.

Read that carefully.

[fishercob]

The Germans paid Israel reparations following The Holocaust.

Read that carefully.

I did. Your comment has a very "gotcha" tone to it. Let me know if you intended otherwise.

This passage stood out.

In addition, individual companies (many of them based in Germany) began to be pressured by survivor groups to compensate former forced laborers. Among them are Deutsche Bank AG, Siemens AG, Bayerische Motoren Werke AG (BMW), Volkswagen AG, and Adam Opel AG. In response, early in 1999, the German government proclaimed the establishment of a fund with monies from these companies to help needy Holocaust survivors. A similar fund was set up by the Swiss, as was a Hungarian fund for compensation of Holocaust victims and their heirs. At the close of the 1990s, discussions of compensation were held by insurance companies that had before the war insured Jews who were later murdered by the Nazis. These companies include Allianz, AXA, Assicurazioni Generali, Zürich Financial Services Group, Winterthur, and Baloise Insurance Group. With the help of information about Holocaust victims made available by Yad Vashem, an international commission under former US Secretary of State, Lawrence Eagleburger, has been trying to uncover the names of those who had been insured and died in the Holocaust. The World Jewish Restitution Organization was created to organize these efforts. On behalf of US citizens, the US Foreign Claims Settlement Commission reached agreements with the German government in 1998 and 1999 to compensate Holocaust victims who immigrated to the US after the war."

Again, this isn't an apples to apples comparison -- no such thing exists. I was merely making the point that historical precedene exists for the payment reparations. I'm sure there are many who feel as many Israelis did -- and as Induveca does -- that they' have no use for reparations and that the very notion is insulting. Others clearly don't feel that way.

[TheSecretWeapon]

Mileage may vary, but the "American slavery wasn't all that bad" argument isn't a winner with me. So...slavery has been fairly ubiquitous worldwide through history and across cultures.

Exporting slaves across the Atlantic had a HUGE impact on Africa. Since slavers wanted men (for physical labor), it distorted the ratio of men to women. The forcible nature of slave procurement caused violence, wars, disease, etc.

Historically (not unique to America), slaves have been stereotyped as lazy, irresponsible, stupid and unable to manage the demands and responsibilities of freedom.

Unique to American (well, really "New World" -- to include South America and the Caribbean) slavery were a few things: the racialized nature of the slaves, the permanence of slavery for most slaves, that slavery was a hereditary condition, and that slaves in the New World were The labor for the slave-owners' biggest profit-making businesses. (In most other cultures, slaves were primarily producing food or were household servants. They were often viewed as points of status and prestige -- they weren't profit centers.)

New World slavery also was unique in its pseudo-justifications for slavery and slave procurement. In most other societies, people became slaves as war captives or when children were abandoned or orphaned. New World slavery relied on abduction and/or tribal wars. In terms of justification, European slavers rationalized the slave trade using the Bible ("Curse of Ham" and other selected verses), and then later with "science" showing the inferiority of darker-skinned races. Long before this "science" justification, Europeans had associated whiteness with purity and blackness with evil. Black was the color of the Devil.

The system of plantation slavery was an American innovation. It made slavery hereditary. The status of owners and slaves alike were passed down from generation to generation.

Also worth noting was that most slaves sold to European slavers had NOT been slaves in Africa. Most were free people who'd been captured in war, enslaved or imprisoned for a crime, and/or were outright kidnapped. European demand for slaves ended up enslaving a number of Africans as punishment for small debts, petty crimes or breaking religious rules. Europeans supplied weapons to help their slave procurement partners capture people.

It's estimated that 10-16 million Africans were shipped across the Atlantic AGAINST THEIR WILL from 1500-1900.

This is before getting to the inhumane practices and tortures devised to keep slaves "in line" and working.

Words like "benign" sound ridiculous when connected to the enslavement of African people in the Americas. It was a violent, horrible, vile institution, and while it's officially over, the effects of that institution are long-lasting. It's nonsense to suggest otherwise.

[TGW]

Induveca, as a Haitian-American, who lived in Haiti, I'm sure no one is shackled anywhere in Haiti. Complete bull...maybe the Haitians that are slaves in the DR are being shackled, but it's not happening in Haiti. Spread your misinformation somewhere else.

Give me a break you know exactly what is happening in DR in many of the sugar cane fields. Ever driven from Port Au Prince to Santo Domingo?

Yes I have..LAST YEAR. I didn't see any "slaves". Again, stop spreading the bull.

I did in the 80s during baby doc's reign. You don't consider the illegal Haitians enslaved? No papers, can't speak the language, considered second class citizens and forced into communal housing for 20 dollars a month (with money deducted for food and water) with nowhere to spend it?

Yes, the life sucks. But you were being intellectually dishonest by saying people were shackled with armed guards. Like I said, maybe that happened in the DR, but it sure as hell is not happening in haiti now.

I lived in DR for a year or so recently, and the drive from Santo Domingo to the east coast may be a bit nicer (with highways), but look off the roads in the cane fields. It's still happening.

Again, did you see shackles? I live in a cane picking area, and I've never seen one.

[Induveca]

The Germans paid Israel reparations following The Holocaust.

Read that carefully.

I did. Your comment has a very "gotcha" tone to it. Let me know if you intended otherwise.

This passage stood out.

In addition, individual companies (many of them based in Germany) began to be pressured by survivor groups to compensate former forced laborers. Among them are Deutsche Bank AG, Siemens AG, Bayerische Motoren Werke AG (BMW), Volkswagen AG, and Adam Opel AG. In response, early in 1999, the German government proclaimed the establishment of a fund with monies from these companies to help needy Holocaust survivors. A similar fund was set up by the Swiss, as was a Hungarian fund for compensation of Holocaust victims and their heirs. At the close of the 1990s, discussions of compensation were held by insurance companies that had before the war insured Jews who were later murdered by the Nazis. These companies include Allianz, AXA, Assicurazioni Generali, Zürich Financial Services Group, Winterthur, and Baloise Insurance Group. With the help of information about Holocaust victims made available by Yad Vashem, an international commission under former US Secretary of State, Lawrence Eagleburger, has been trying to uncover the names of those who had been insured and died in the Holocaust. The World Jewish Restitution Organization was created to organize these efforts. On behalf of US citizens, the US Foreign Claims Settlement Commission reached agreements with the German government in 1998 and 1999 to compensate Holocaust victims who immigrated to the US after the war."

Again, this isn't an apples to apples comparison -- no such thing exists. I was merely making the point that historical precedene exists for the payment reparations. I'm sure there are many who feel as many Israelis did -- and as Induveca does -- that they' have no use for reparations and that the very notion is insulting. Others clearly don't feel that way.

I don't disagree with reparations, in theory, I do disagree with it in the case of 1600-1800s U.S. slavery. The U.S. is multiple generations removed at this point and vastly different in terms of demographics.

I have a hard enough time with welfare/food stamps/public housing abuse for THIS generation being abused by family and friends. A 20k payout to a great great great grandson of a slave, sold to a Dutch or English colonist being taken from my earnings 200 years later as a Dominican American?

No thanks.

[dckingsfan]

So, after all that - what would the reparation look like? Cash, land, other? Would it be evenly split or by income?

I am having a hard time wrapping a "fair" value on an individual's freedom (priceless) and weighing it against those who don't have a need vs. those who have great need (assuming that some of that was caused by slavery).

For the American Indians, it has been both a windfall and bane depending on your tribe.

I guess it doesn't matter until public opinion on the issue (reparations not slavery) tip (but they have on Gay Marriage, Abortion Rights and other issues).

Edit: Also where would the cash come from? A special one time tax maybe? Land is easy - we just take it from New York...

[Induveca]

Induveca, as a Haitian-American, who lived in Haiti, I'm sure no one is shackled anywhere in Haiti. Complete bull...maybe the Haitians that are slaves in the DR are being shackled, but it's not happening in Haiti. Spread your misinformation somewhere else.

Give me a break you know exactly what is happening in DR in many of the sugar cane fields. Ever driven from Port Au Prince to Santo Domingo?

Yes I have..LAST YEAR. I didn't see any "slaves". Again, stop spreading the bull.

I did in the 80s during baby doc's reign. You don't consider the illegal Haitians enslaved? No papers, can't speak the language, considered second class citizens and forced into communal housing for 20 dollars a month (with money deducted for food and water) with nowhere to spend it?

Yes, the life sucks. But you were being intellectually dishonest by saying people were shackled with armed guards. Like I said, maybe that happened in the DR, but it sure as hell is not happening in haiti now.

I lived in DR for a year or so recently, and the drive from Santo Domingo to the east coast may be a bit nicer (with highways), but look off the roads in the cane fields. It's still happening.

Again, did you see shackles? I live in a cane picking area, and I've never seen one.

Did you just completely ignore the Duke study? Not all slaves have shackles. But I have seen encampments where the braceros are fenced in and armed guards are looking after the fields.

The Fanjul family is notorious for this.

Read this if you have a chance about "modern day slavery" in the Dominican Republic. Just because there are no shackles, it doesn't mean they aren't slaves in nearly every other regard.

http://www.wilderutopia.com/international/humanity/dominican-republic-modern-day-sugarcane-slavery

A snippet....

-----
The movie visits the workers’ shantytowns, known as bateyes, which, according to the film, resembled forced labor camps patrolled by armed guards before Father Hartley’s reform movement. Through his organizing and relentless pressuring of the plantation owners in the face of death threats, some bateyes in his parish now have improved living and working conditions and have been visited by American doctors.
-----

[dobrojim]

Slavery may be almost entirely a thing of the past in this country, but white privilege
is still alive and doing quite well.

Okay.

So would you suggest reparations for white privilege? If so, how do you define white privilege? How do you quantify it? Certainly, some individuals are better skilled and qualified to accomplish some things than other individuals. If the more skilled person happens to be a white person, how do we know if his accomplishments are based on merit or privilege?

Blacks are overrepresented in professional football and basketball. Is that black privilege?

Face value please.

Perhaps we should begin with some agreement that it really does exist. I agree that it would be difficult
at best to numerical quantify. The fact that different people have different levels of skills and abilities
is a pure strawman. In order to assess the extent to which white privilege exists, one might begin
by looking at populations and hypothesizing about what you would expect to see if it didn't exist vs
if it does.

I think driving while black might be an example of its existence.

[dobrojim]

I would be interested to understand how we would do reparations. Would it be like the Indians where we give them a combination of cash payments and land?

or blankets and small pox

[TGW]

Give me a break you know exactly what is happening in DR in many of the sugar cane fields. Ever driven from Port Au Prince to Santo Domingo?

Yes I have..LAST YEAR. I didn't see any "slaves". Again, stop spreading the bull.

I did in the 80s during baby doc's reign. You don't consider the illegal Haitians enslaved? No papers, can't speak the language, considered second class citizens and forced into communal housing for 20 dollars a month (with money deducted for food and water) with nowhere to spend it?

Yes, the life sucks. But you were being intellectually dishonest by saying people were shackled with armed guards. Like I said, maybe that happened in the DR, but it sure as hell is not happening in haiti now.

I lived in DR for a year or so recently, and the drive from Santo Domingo to the east coast may be a bit nicer (with highways), but look off the roads in the cane fields. It's still happening.

Again, did you see shackles? I live in a cane picking area, and I've never seen one.

Did you just completely ignore the Duke study? Not all slaves have shackles. But I have seen encampments where the braceros are fenced in and armed guards are looking after the fields.

Seriously dude, why would I care about a documentary made by some random nerds from Duke when I am from the country and lived there? You think because it's a "documentary" by some white guys, that's it's somehow more valid than a person who's from the country? Stop tapdancing.

The Fanjul family is notorious for this.

Read this if you have a chance about "modern day slavery" in the Dominican Republic. Just because there are no shackles, it doesn't mean they aren't slaves in nearly every other regard.

http://www.wilderutopia.com/international/humanity/dominican-republic-modern-day-sugarcane-slavery

A snippet....

-----
The movie visits the workers’ shantytowns, known as bateyes, which, according to the film, resembled forced labor camps patrolled by armed guards before Father Hartley’s reform movement. Through his organizing and relentless pressuring of the plantation owners in the face of death threats, some bateyes in his parish now have improved living and working conditions and have been visited by American doctors.
-----

[/quote]

Like I said, maybe Haitians are slaves in the Dominican Republic. The DR buys haitians and uses them for cheap labor, so I wouldn't be surprised.

[TGW]

And just to add:

My fiance's Dad (who's AA), who just turned 70, told me how when he was in the Navy, black seamen weren't allowed to be anything but cooks and janitors on the ship. He said one day, while mopping the floors on the ship, he stumbled onto a print and production room where all the ship's documents were produced. He looked around and was fascinated with the press and print machines, and while he was checking the machines out, the seamen working in the production room told him to get his [expletive] ass out.

The next day he asked his superior to work in the production room. By Navy law, he was allowed to test for it. Shockingly [insert green front here], his test got lost not once, not twice, but THREE TIMES. He ended up being discharged from the military some 10 years later, and worked for the AARP as their main Production Manager at the corporate offices in DC.

He also told me how he was denied a HUD loan, although he was eligible for one through the military.

Now is that deserving of reparations? Maybe, maybe not. But he was clearly stunted from reaching his potential. I think it would be fair to say that my fiance's father's experience wasn't out of the ordinary at the time.

Nate--care to comment on what I wrote? I'm just curious on what your response is.

[dckingsfan]

I would be interested to understand how we would do reparations. Would it be like the Indians where we give them a combination of cash payments and land?

or blankets and small pox

so your assertion is that it isn't possible? Smh

[dckingsfan]

And just to add:

My fiance's Dad (who's AA), who just turned 70, told me how when he was in the Navy, black seamen weren't allowed to be anything but cooks and janitors on the ship. He said one day, while mopping the floors on the ship, he stumbled onto a print and production room where all the ship's documents were produced. He looked around and was fascinated with the press and print machines, and while he was checking the machines out, the seamen working in the production room told him to get his [expletive] ass out.

The next day he asked his superior to work in the production room. By Navy law, he was allowed to test for it. Shockingly [insert green front here], his test got lost not once, not twice, but THREE TIMES. He ended up being discharged from the military some 10 years later, and worked for the AARP as their main Production Manager at the corporate offices in DC.

He also told me how he was denied a HUD loan, although he was eligible for one through the military.

Now is that deserving of reparations? Maybe, maybe not. But he was clearly stunted from reaching his potential. I think it would be fair to say that my fiance's father's experience wasn't out of the ordinary at the time.

Nate--care to comment on what I wrote? I'm just curious on what your response is.

I have one - during WWII my grandfather was a surgeon in the navy and was stationed on a hospital ship. He had a black nurse serving under him that they wouldn't let into surgery. Said she was the best nurse on the boat and he brought her into surgery anyway. He didn't trust the other nurses to close. He would finish with surgery and leave her in charge - almost got him court martialed.

Went up to an admiral - who came and watched her work - decided it was worth keeping sailors alive and let it go...