2020 NBA Draft Thread, Part 2 -- (8PM, Wed, Nov. 18, ESPN)

[Spin Move]

Sounds like there are a few coming along with me on the Saddiq Bey @ 14 band wagon, but not enough yet !!!
I really think he checks all the boxes for what we need to come in right away and contribute and still be able to grow with Tatum, Brown, Smart, Langford, G. Will and Timelord. His shot may be a bit low and slow, but dang it, they go in. 20 of his 31 games he made 2 or more three pointers. Avg. 45 % on 3's at 5.6 attempts. That's the main point. Big wings is the way this league is going. Brad is running an offense that features 4 shooters and a big. Saddiq Bey just fits so perfect. Nesmith is a close, a bit smaller, but will work if Bey is gone as a second option.

We can get the back up point guard with the 26th. I still like Tre Jones there, due to his size and defense. 6'2.5 and 185 lbs. He's 3rd on Tankathon's list in assists at 6.5 per, tied for 6th with 1.8 steals, and shoots 36% on 3's. Learned his defense at Duke, and being a Carolina fan, I know from watching him play, and having to listen to announcers all game tell me how good he is. lol

I also like Daniel Oturu as a big with the 30th. Good rim protector, low post scorer, 6'10 with 7'2 wingspan. Avg over 11 boards, 2.5 blocks and even hit on 36.5% of his threes. Give him a year and he will easily be better than Kanter, and a great option at back up 4/5.

The problem with a guy like Bey is he has a low ceiling, he can be a nice 3 and D rotational wing probably though some websites say he lacks the ideal athletiscm to be a really good defender. What I find worrying is his lacks of blocks and steals in college tends to be a bad sign for NBA success though not always https://medium.com/unpluggd-mag/the-relationship-between-steal-rates-and-nba-success-fbc8d668e9fa see also https://www.researchgate.net/publication/24131551_The_Length_and_Success_of_NBA_Careers_Does_College_Production_Predict_Professional_Outcomes I like Oturo at 26 or 30 if we don't grab Jalen Smith earlier. I would love it if Nesmith fell to us. " An additional per game rebound
in college predicts about a quarter of game higher rebound average in the pros. Additional
collegiate blocked shots has a similar effect on professional blocked shots. One more steal per
game in college implies four-tenths of a steal per game more steals as a pro, and each additional
college assist per game translates into nearly three-fourths of an assist per game more as a
professional. Ten percent more points per game in college implies about four percent more points
per game as a professional"

Bey will probably be a nice roational player but this draft is our last real chance to have a decent swing at another star I would much rather trade up even a few spots and get say Aaron Nesmith who could be a star and has a similar floor.

[Squigglepuffin]

Celtics get Obi Toppin

Toppin is going to be a bust, even if selected at 14. At best he's a future bench player/low level starter. He's Derrick Williams 2.0.

Not even the same type of player, I went to UofA and watched all of Derrick WIliams games, he is 6'9 with a 7'2 wingspan, he is a great big 3/ stretch 4 prospect, just dont expect 10 boards a game, he is Shawn Marion Reborn ... he will need a season or two to become an adequate defender but he will be a really good player, maybe not an All star but perhaps a Tobias Harris level player, which is a good comp, he is a more athletic Tobias Harris.

Are you referring to Toppin when saying he's Shawn Marion reborn? Shawn Marion was an all star. Shawn Marion was an amazing defender. Obi Toppin will be no where, and I mean no where close to as good as Shawn Marion.

Toppin is a really bad defender that will struggle to stay on the court because he has almost no lateral quickness. He's very overrated. If he was there at 26 I'd think about it (that's how much I believe in him in comparison to other players in this draft)... but he won't be because some hilarious GM is going to buy the media hype and draft him in the top 10 - which is an absolute waste of a pick.

[Spin Move]

Here are some basic stats to compare the big men we have been talking about for the most part in one place
Oturu
FGA FG% 2P 2PA 2P% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
13.6 .563 7.1 12.0 .590 0.6 1.7 .365 4.1 5.8 .707 3.7 7.5 11.3 1.1 0.5 2.5 2.8 2.7 20.1

Smith
FGA FG% 2P 2PA 2P% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
10.1 .538 4.4 7.3 .604 1.0 2.8 .368 3.6 4.8 .750 3.2 7.3 10.5 0.8 0.7 2.4 1.7 2.4 15.5

Precious
FGA FG% 2P 2PA 2P% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
11.9 .493 5.5 10.6 .514 0.4 1.3 .325 3.6 6.0 .599 3.0 7.8 10.8 1.0 1.1 1.9 2.8 2.4 15.8
Reed
FGA FG% 2P 2PA 2P% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
12.2 .516 5.7 10.4 .551 0.6 1.8 .308 2.0 2.8 .738 3.3 7.4 10.7 1.6 1.9 2.6 2.3 3.0 15.1
Okongwu
FGA FG% 2P 2PA 2P% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
10.1 .616 6.2 10.0 .621 0.0 0.1 .250 3.7 5.1 .720 3.3 5.4 8.6 1.1 1.2 2.7 2.0 2.7 16.2
Obi
FGA FG% 2P 2PA 2P% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
12.5 .633 6.9 9.8 .698 1.0 2.6 .390 3.2 4.5 .702 1.2 6.4 7.5 2.2 1.0 1.2 2.2 1.6 20.0
Bey
FGA FG% 2P 2PA 2P% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
8.5 .530 4.1 7.5 .545 0.4 1.0 .419 4.4 5.9 .743 2.0 7.0 9.0 1.5 1.5 1.2 2.4 1.9 13.8
Nanaj
FGA FG% 2P 2PA 2P% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
9.8 .570 5.4 9.3 .586 0.2 0.5 .294 4.8 6.3 .760 3.1 5.5 8.6 0.8 0.7 0.9 2.2 2.4 16.1
Stewart
FGA FG% 2P 2PA 2P% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
10.5 .570 5.8 9.9 .590 0.2 0.6 .250 4.8 6.2 .774 2.8 6.0 8.8 0.8 0.5 2.1 2.2 2.6 17.0

[Spin Move]

Toppin is going to be a bust, even if selected at 14. At best he's a future bench player/low level starter. He's Derrick Williams 2.0.

Not even the same type of player, I went to UofA and watched all of Derrick WIliams games, he is 6'9 with a 7'2 wingspan, he is a great big 3/ stretch 4 prospect, just dont expect 10 boards a game, he is Shawn Marion Reborn ... he will need a season or two to become an adequate defender but he will be a really good player, maybe not an All star but perhaps a Tobias Harris level player, which is a good comp, he is a more athletic Tobias Harris.

Are you referring to Toppin when saying he's Shawn Marion reborn? Shawn Marion was an all star. Shawn Marion was an amazing defender. Obi Toppin will be no where, and I mean no where close to as good as Shawn Marion.

Toppin is a really bad defender that will struggle to stay on the court because he has almost no lateral quickness. He's very overrated. If he was there at 26 I'd think about it (that's how much I believe in him in comparison to other players in this draft)... but he won't be because some hilarious GM is going to buy the media hype and draft him in the top 10 - which is an absolute waste of a pick.

I disagree I watched 4 games he played in last year, he was a good athelete who needs to learn better discipline and technique on defense, I am a big Kansas Basketball fan and he had 18 9 and 3 blocks against a team that was a favorite to make the final four. He is going to be a good player, I live in Phoenix and watched Marion play all the time, he is a All over the place 3/4 who can make a difference on D with the right coaching, he lead the NCAA in dunks he is not by any means slow or a bad athlete.

[Squigglepuffin]

Celtics get Obi Toppin

Toppin is going to be a bust, even if selected at 14. At best he's a future bench player/low level starter. He's Derrick Williams 2.0.

Depends on the team he goes to— elite athlete with plus size and great skill. I think he’d be great here.

No, he's not an elite athlete. Everyone seems to have this mistaken idea that if you can run fast and jump high you are a good athlete. There's much more to athleticism than that. There's lateral quickness, ability to de-accelerate, speed at which a player reaches his max vert (can he jump fast?), lower body strength, upper body strength, etc.

Toppin's lateral quickness is really bad, and so is his ability to de-accelerate. It's most likely due to his high centre of gravity and lack of lower body strength. He's just going to get absolutely abused on the perimeter on the pick and roll, and before anyone points out Jokic, the difference between them on defense is Jokic is a much, much smarter defender, even Olynyk is a much smarter defender than Toppin.

Toppin also has a high centre of gravity (which is bad), and his frame and age means he's unlikely to fill out much more than he has already. Meaning, he'll get abused in the post on defense as well, and it's fair to say by looking at his college numbers he won't be a good rebounder.

So you have a guy who is too slow to play the 3, a guy who isn't strong enough (and as I said he is already fairly physically developed due to his age so it's unlikely he puts on much weight) to play the 4, and a 5 who is both not strong enough to guard a 4 or 5, but also one who can't rebound very well in comparison to his peers.

If Jalen Smith is healthy and stays healthy he'll end up being a better player than Toppin.If Killian Tille can stay healthy I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up being as good as Toppin.

[SmartWentCrazy]

Toppin is going to be a bust, even if selected at 14. At best he's a future bench player/low level starter. He's Derrick Williams 2.0.

Depends on the team he goes to— elite athlete with plus size and great skill. I think he’d be great here.

No, he's not an elite athlete. Everyone seems to have this mistaken idea that if you can run fast and jump high you are a good athlete. There's much more to athleticism than that. There's lateral quickness, ability to de-accelerate, speed at which a player reaches his max vert (can he jump fast?), lower body strength, upper body strength, etc.

Toppin's lateral quickness is really bad, and so is his ability to de-accelerate. It's most likely due to his high centre of gravity and lack of lower body strength. He's just going to get absolutely abused on the perimeter on the pick and roll, and before anyone points out Jokic, the difference between them on defense is Jokic is a much, much smarter defender, even Olynyk is a much smarter defender than Toppin.

Toppin also has a high centre of gravity (which is bad), and his frame and age means he's unlikely to fill out much more than he has already. Meaning, he'll get abused in the post on defense as well, and it's fair to say by looking at his college numbers he won't be a good rebounder.

So you have a guy who is too slow to play the 3, a guy who isn't strong enough (and as I said he is already fairly physically developed due to his age so it's unlikely he puts on much weight) to play the 4, and a 5 who is both not strong enough to guard a 4 or 5, but also one who can't rebound very well in comparison to his peers.

If Jalen Smith is healthy and stays healthy he'll end up being a better player than Toppin.If Killian Tille can stay healthy I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up being as good as Toppin.

Or, just maybe, youre seeing the effects of a guy who grew about half a foot at 18/19 years old and still isnt used to his new body. Hip flexibility will be trained into him at the NBA at a level I wouldnt have expected from Dayton.

With respect to strength, your point is absurd— he’s going to get stronger when he goes from a mid major school to NBA training. Again, stop acting like he isnt some guy who went from zero scholarship offers to growing nearly half a foot to becoming player of the year in college. He isnt on the normal growth/development path youre trying to myopically force him onto.

Jalen Smith is an overrated big who wont do much at the next level. Bench big, tops. Tillie is a poor mans Kelly Olynyk. If Toppin gets onto the right team, he’ll be much better. If not, then yup— he’ll bust.

[aporel18]

Given some rumours about the Rockets wanting to trade into the first round to pick a big, and some comments by Hollinger about the Cs and the Cavaliers, here's what I?d do:

Before draft, trade #26, Kanter and Poirier to Cleveland for Larry Nance Jr.

Take Maledon with pick #14 to take over Kemba in 2 years

At #30, if the Rockets like a big still available, trade the pick for the right to swap picks in 2021 if HOU pick is 1-4, then if not conveyed, get the Rockets 2022 first round pick unprotected.

If #47 isn't included in either trade, pick Killian Tillie, Markus Howard or whoever you think could help on a non guaranteed contract.

Pick an undrafted free agent or two to see if they are any good.

Enter Free Agency

[winsomme2]

Maxey is a small SG who can't shoot. Seriously, how are so many high on him? There will be better players well into the 2nd round. I just can't believe that I'm reading so many open to taking him at #14. It's baffling really.

Maxey IMO is more of a scoring PG. His handle is super advanced and he makes really good reads in transition and half court sets. He's fast and he's strong. He really is a Kyrie type player with better defense and better team qualities.

The only hit on him is his 3pt% and honestly that seems like a blip to me.

I have others ahead of him on my wish list at 14 but I wouldn't be upset if he was the pick.

[Squigglepuffin]

Depends on the team he goes to— elite athlete with plus size and great skill. I think he’d be great here.

No, he's not an elite athlete. Everyone seems to have this mistaken idea that if you can run fast and jump high you are a good athlete. There's much more to athleticism than that. There's lateral quickness, ability to de-accelerate, speed at which a player reaches his max vert (can he jump fast?), lower body strength, upper body strength, etc.

Toppin's lateral quickness is really bad, and so is his ability to de-accelerate. It's most likely due to his high centre of gravity and lack of lower body strength. He's just going to get absolutely abused on the perimeter on the pick and roll, and before anyone points out Jokic, the difference between them on defense is Jokic is a much, much smarter defender, even Olynyk is a much smarter defender than Toppin.

Toppin also has a high centre of gravity (which is bad), and his frame and age means he's unlikely to fill out much more than he has already. Meaning, he'll get abused in the post on defense as well, and it's fair to say by looking at his college numbers he won't be a good rebounder.

So you have a guy who is too slow to play the 3, a guy who isn't strong enough (and as I said he is already fairly physically developed due to his age so it's unlikely he puts on much weight) to play the 4, and a 5 who is both not strong enough to guard a 4 or 5, but also one who can't rebound very well in comparison to his peers.

If Jalen Smith is healthy and stays healthy he'll end up being a better player than Toppin.If Killian Tille can stay healthy I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up being as good as Toppin.

Or, just maybe, youre seeing the effects of a guy who grew about half a foot at 18/19 years old and still isnt used to his new body. Hip flexibility will be trained into him at the NBA at a level I wouldnt have expected from Dayton.

With respect to strength, your point is absurd— he’s going to get stronger when he goes from a mid major school to NBA training. Again, stop acting like he isnt some guy who went from zero scholarship offers to growing nearly half a foot to becoming player of the year in college. He isnt on the normal growth/development path youre trying to myopically force him onto.

Jalen Smith is an overrated big who wont do much at the next level. Bench big, tops. Tillie is a poor mans Kelly Olynyk. If Toppin gets onto the right team, he’ll be much better. If not, then yup— he’ll bust.

Firstly, I agree with you on Tillie.

Secondly, it doesn't take someone three years to get used to being about one iphone taller. I do agree that he's going to get stronger. I just don't think he's going to get much stronger.

I'd also say that prospects should be treated as individuals and not plastered onto a typical growth/development path. So I agree with you there.

NBA training will help him improve his strength, flexibility, and skill level, but every athlete is limited by their own body. Toppin is someone who clearly has a high centre of gravity with a lackluster base of support in his lower body. That base of support will get stronger but the strength he lacks in the post when playing against players years younger than him (he's 22) is the biggest of red flags.

If you're an athletic big, and college POTY at 22 years old but are a worse defender and rebounder than Kelly Olynyk I'm sorry to say, but it's hype. His stats are about where Olynyk's were in college, but KO has higher BBIQ. Kelly was never talked about as a top 5 pick.

Additionally, you can have all the hip flexibility in the world. That doesn't equate to lateral movement. As I said, his lateral movement is really bad. Will it improve with NBA training? Yes, but even the speed and acceleration he has when making sliding movements on the defensive end is really, really slow to the extent that it needs to be said - there's only so much a strength and conditioning coach can do.

The part of his game that will make him a career bench player at most is on the defensive end.

For what it's worth Jalen Smith also has a high centre of gravity (it's not a good thing for either of them) and a lackluster base of support (more so than Toppin) but his lateral quickness is much better, he is a faster jumper imo, and he's unquestionably a better rebounder (which is important for a big) - but he could also wash out of the league.

[JHTruth]

Maxey is a small SG who can't shoot. Seriously, how are so many high on him? There will be better players well into the 2nd round. I just can't believe that I'm reading so many open to taking him at #14. It's baffling really.

This.


Want a small shooting guard grab terry or joe.

2 actual shooters

Kentucky players are super hot right now. Maxey is a brilliant finisher that is certain. How much he can playmake or shoot is less certain.

[jfs1000d]

Drummond is 100% my comp for Wiseman.

Then get wiseman.

Drummond a good player. Not great, but very good.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Would cost you Smart and 14; would prefer that over getting a guy who will take 3/4 years to become today’s version of Drummond, personally.

Smart and 14 for Drummond? I’d reluctantly do that. Don’t care about 14, but love Smart.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[snowman]

I would be happy with Aaron Nesmith or Saddiq Bey, but I don't think Nesmith will be there at 14. He's 2 inches shorter than Saddiq Bey but I would think Nesmith would play shooting guard for us, and Bey would play small forward. I was just thinking that with Langford backing up Brown at SG, Saddiq Bey would be better for us as a back up to Hayward or Tatum than Nesmith would simply due to size. But I really hope we get one of these 2 for some shooting off the bench which we desperately need. How many of you thought that during the Miami series " Why great it would be to have a Robinson or Herro on this team" ?

[flintsky21]

I would be happy with Aaron Nesmith or Saddiq Bey, but I don't think Nesmith will be there at 14. He's 2 inches shorter than Saddiq Bey but I would think Nesmith would play shooting guard for us, and Bey would play small forward. I was just thinking that with Langford backing up Brown at SG, Saddiq Bey would be better for us as a back up to Hayward or Tatum than Nesmith would simply due to size. But I really hope we get one of these 2 for some shooting off the bench which we desperately need. How many of you thought that during the Miami series " Why great it would be to have a Robinson or Herro on this team" ?

I'm afraid Saddiq Bey might not be there at 14 as well. He just screams "Spurs guy" to me.

Regarding Robinson and Herro and in past years for other teams like Belinelli, Reddick, Korver etc., I wonder why DA never tried to get a pure 3 point specialist when every other elite team is always hunting for one. These type of guys may be streaky as heck and could give you just 5 points in one game, but in those games when they're feeling it, they'd go off for something like 26 points, and they could win you that important playoff game. Think Olynyk in a game 7 a few years back. The Celtics need someone like that off the bench. Maybe if Hayward embraces a role like that next year?

[SmartWentCrazy]

Firstly, I agree with you on Tillie.

Secondly, it doesn't take someone three years to get used to being about one iphone taller. I do agree that he's going to get stronger. I just don't think he's going to get much stronger.

It takes a long time because your bio-mechanics get thrown off entirely.

I'd also say that prospects should be treated as individuals and not plastered onto a typical growth/development path. So I agree with you there.

NBA training will help him improve his strength, flexibility, and skill level, but every athlete is limited by their own body. Toppin is someone who clearly has a high centre of gravity with a lackluster base of support in his lower body. That base of support will get stronger but the strength he lacks in the post when playing against players years younger than him (he's 22) is the biggest of red flags.

Sure, his high CoG is an issue, but his hip flexibility is the bigger problem— he needs to be able better sink his hips which will allow him to play defense. Hip flexibility will help him tremendously.

If you're an athletic big, and college POTY at 22 years old but are a worse defender and rebounder than Kelly Olynyk I'm sorry to say, but it's hype. His stats are about where Olynyk's were in college, but KO has higher BBIQ. Kelly was never talked about as a top 5 pick.

To nit pick, their rebounding is the same. Dont let ORBs bias stats as those are scheme dependent. FWIW, he had about the same DRB% as Tatum, which is more than satisfactory to me.

And I dont buy the BBIQ BS; Toppin was an offensive savant who won POY. FOH saying he has poor BBIQ.

Olynyk could shoot but had no where near the mindset nor versatility of Toppin. Thats why one was mocked mid lotto and the other late lotto.

Additionally, you can have all the hip flexibility in the world. That doesn't equate to lateral movement. As I said, his lateral movement is really bad. Will it improve with NBA training? Yes, but even the speed and acceleration he has when making sliding movements on the defensive end is really, really slow to the extent that it needs to be said - there's only so much a strength and conditioning coach can do.

The part of his game that will make him a career bench player at most is on the defensive end.

False, it’ll greatly accentuate his ability to slide his feet and stay with players on drives. And stop acting like Toppin is a 6’9 IT on defense.

For what it's worth Jalen Smith also has a high centre of gravity (it's not a good thing for either of them) and a lackluster base of support (more so than Toppin) but his lateral quickness is much better, he is a faster jumper imo, and he's unquestionably a better rebounder (which is important for a big) - but he could also wash out of the league.

Hes a marginally better DRB% that looks like a better ORB% cuz his coach lets him crash the glass. Smith is basically Brandon Bass to me— okay at a lot of things but good at none. Bench big.

Toppin is similar to John Collins or Amare to me; if he gets in the right environment, he’ll be great. But if he goes to Cleveland or Detroit or DC, he’s a bust waiting to happen. He needs a system that will hold him accountable defensively to get him as close to league average as possible.

[JHTruth]

I would be happy with Aaron Nesmith or Saddiq Bey, but I don't think Nesmith will be there at 14. He's 2 inches shorter than Saddiq Bey but I would think Nesmith would play shooting guard for us, and Bey would play small forward. I was just thinking that with Langford backing up Brown at SG, Saddiq Bey would be better for us as a back up to Hayward or Tatum than Nesmith would simply due to size. But I really hope we get one of these 2 for some shooting off the bench which we desperately need. How many of you thought that during the Miami series " Why great it would be to have a Robinson or Herro on this team" ?

I'm afraid Saddiq Bey might not be there at 14 as well. He just screams "Spurs guy" to me.

Regarding Robinson and Herro and in past years for other teams like Belinelli, Reddick, Korver etc., I wonder why DA never tried to get a pure 3 point specialist when every other elite team is always hunting for one. These type of guys may be streaky as heck and could give you just 5 points in one game, but in those games when they're feeling it, they'd go off for something like 26 points, and they could win you that important playoff game. Think Olynyk in a game 7 a few years back. The Celtics need someone like that off the bench. Maybe if Hayward embraces a role like that next year?

He did. Carsen Edwards was the best scorer in the draft last year. Brad just really struggled to utilize him. Brad has a lot of work to do to learn how to incorporate players that don't fit his "system" to a tee. He has his box, and he never really goes outside it. Miami is an innovative franchise that identifies, develops, and utilizes all sorts of talents at a high level. His resume isn't strong enough to allow his "system" to override all talent concerns IMHO.

[Celts17Pride]

Firstly, I agree with you on Tillie.

Secondly, it doesn't take someone three years to get used to being about one iphone taller. I do agree that he's going to get stronger. I just don't think he's going to get much stronger.

It takes a long time because your bio-mechanics get thrown off entirely.

I'd also say that prospects should be treated as individuals and not plastered onto a typical growth/development path. So I agree with you there.

NBA training will help him improve his strength, flexibility, and skill level, but every athlete is limited by their own body. Toppin is someone who clearly has a high centre of gravity with a lackluster base of support in his lower body. That base of support will get stronger but the strength he lacks in the post when playing against players years younger than him (he's 22) is the biggest of red flags.

Sure, his high CoG is an issue, but his hip flexibility is the bigger problem— he needs to be able better sink his hips which will allow him to play defense. Hip flexibility will help him tremendously.

If you're an athletic big, and college POTY at 22 years old but are a worse defender and rebounder than Kelly Olynyk I'm sorry to say, but it's hype. His stats are about where Olynyk's were in college, but KO has higher BBIQ. Kelly was never talked about as a top 5 pick.

To nit pick, their rebounding is the same. Dont let ORBs bias stats as those are scheme dependent. FWIW, he had about the same DRB% as Tatum, which is more than satisfactory to me.

And I dont buy the BBIQ BS; Toppin was an offensive savant who won POY. FOH saying he has poor BBIQ.

Olynyk could shoot but had no where near the mindset nor versatility of Toppin. Thats why one was mocked mid lotto and the other late lotto.

Additionally, you can have all the hip flexibility in the world. That doesn't equate to lateral movement. As I said, his lateral movement is really bad. Will it improve with NBA training? Yes, but even the speed and acceleration he has when making sliding movements on the defensive end is really, really slow to the extent that it needs to be said - there's only so much a strength and conditioning coach can do.

The part of his game that will make him a career bench player at most is on the defensive end.

False, it’ll greatly accentuate his ability to slide his feet and stay with players on drives. And stop acting like Toppin is a 6’9 IT on defense.

For what it's worth Jalen Smith also has a high centre of gravity (it's not a good thing for either of them) and a lackluster base of support (more so than Toppin) but his lateral quickness is much better, he is a faster jumper imo, and he's unquestionably a better rebounder (which is important for a big) - but he could also wash out of the league.

Hes a marginally better DRB% that looks like a better ORB% cuz his coach lets him crash the glass. Smith is basically Brandon Bass to me— okay at a lot of things but good at none. Bench big.

Toppin is similar to John Collins or Amare to me; if he gets in the right environment, he’ll be great. But if he goes to Cleveland or Detroit or DC, he’s a bust waiting to happen. He needs a system that will hold him accountable defensively to get him as close to league average as possible.

I’m OK with Jalen Smith if it’s the 26th pick. 6’10” with some potential.

[SmartWentCrazy]

Firstly, I agree with you on Tillie.

Secondly, it doesn't take someone three years to get used to being about one iphone taller. I do agree that he's going to get stronger. I just don't think he's going to get much stronger.

It takes a long time because your bio-mechanics get thrown off entirely.

I'd also say that prospects should be treated as individuals and not plastered onto a typical growth/development path. So I agree with you there.

NBA training will help him improve his strength, flexibility, and skill level, but every athlete is limited by their own body. Toppin is someone who clearly has a high centre of gravity with a lackluster base of support in his lower body. That base of support will get stronger but the strength he lacks in the post when playing against players years younger than him (he's 22) is the biggest of red flags.

Sure, his high CoG is an issue, but his hip flexibility is the bigger problem— he needs to be able better sink his hips which will allow him to play defense. Hip flexibility will help him tremendously.

If you're an athletic big, and college POTY at 22 years old but are a worse defender and rebounder than Kelly Olynyk I'm sorry to say, but it's hype. His stats are about where Olynyk's were in college, but KO has higher BBIQ. Kelly was never talked about as a top 5 pick.

To nit pick, their rebounding is the same. Dont let ORBs bias stats as those are scheme dependent. FWIW, he had about the same DRB% as Tatum, which is more than satisfactory to me.

And I dont buy the BBIQ BS; Toppin was an offensive savant who won POY. FOH saying he has poor BBIQ.

Olynyk could shoot but had no where near the mindset nor versatility of Toppin. Thats why one was mocked mid lotto and the other late lotto.

Additionally, you can have all the hip flexibility in the world. That doesn't equate to lateral movement. As I said, his lateral movement is really bad. Will it improve with NBA training? Yes, but even the speed and acceleration he has when making sliding movements on the defensive end is really, really slow to the extent that it needs to be said - there's only so much a strength and conditioning coach can do.

The part of his game that will make him a career bench player at most is on the defensive end.

False, it’ll greatly accentuate his ability to slide his feet and stay with players on drives. And stop acting like Toppin is a 6’9 IT on defense.

For what it's worth Jalen Smith also has a high centre of gravity (it's not a good thing for either of them) and a lackluster base of support (more so than Toppin) but his lateral quickness is much better, he is a faster jumper imo, and he's unquestionably a better rebounder (which is important for a big) - but he could also wash out of the league.

Hes a marginally better DRB% that looks like a better ORB% cuz his coach lets him crash the glass. Smith is basically Brandon Bass to me— okay at a lot of things but good at none. Bench big.

Toppin is similar to John Collins or Amare to me; if he gets in the right environment, he’ll be great. But if he goes to Cleveland or Detroit or DC, he’s a bust waiting to happen. He needs a system that will hold him accountable defensively to get him as close to league average as possible.

I’m OK with Jalen Smith if it’s the 26th pick. 6’10” with some potential.

At 26; absolutely.

At 14; no way!

[snowman]

I would be happy with Aaron Nesmith or Saddiq Bey, but I don't think Nesmith will be there at 14. He's 2 inches shorter than Saddiq Bey but I would think Nesmith would play shooting guard for us, and Bey would play small forward. I was just thinking that with Langford backing up Brown at SG, Saddiq Bey would be better for us as a back up to Hayward or Tatum than Nesmith would simply due to size. But I really hope we get one of these 2 for some shooting off the bench which we desperately need. How many of you thought that during the Miami series " Why great it would be to have a Robinson or Herro on this team" ?

I'm afraid Saddiq Bey might not be there at 14 as well. He just screams "Spurs guy" to me.

Regarding Robinson and Herro and in past years for other teams like Belinelli, Reddick, Korver etc., I wonder why DA never tried to get a pure 3 point specialist when every other elite team is always hunting for one. These type of guys may be streaky as heck and could give you just 5 points in one game, but in those games when they're feeling it, they'd go off for something like 26 points, and they could win you that important playoff game. Think Olynyk in a game 7 a few years back. The Celtics need someone like that off the bench. Maybe if Hayward embraces a role like that next year?

He did. Carsen Edwards was the best scorer in the draft last year. Brad just really struggled to utilize him. Brad has a lot of work to do to learn how to incorporate players that don't fit his "system" to a tee. He has his box, and he never really goes outside it. Miami is an innovative franchise that identifies, develops, and utilizes all sorts of talents at a high level. His resume isn't strong enough to allow his "system" to override all talent concerns IMHO.

Brad didn't play Edwards because he didn't fit the system, he didn't play Edwards because he couldn't hit a shot during a real game, and he is a defensive liability. I expect the Spurs to take Nesmith if available.

[Squigglepuffin]

Toppin is similar to John Collins or Amare to me; if he gets in the right environment, he’ll be great. But if he goes to Cleveland or Detroit or DC, he’s a bust waiting to happen. He needs a system that will hold him accountable defensively to get him as close to league average as possible.

If you're comparing Toppin to these two then the extent to which we disagree on Toppin is much larger that I would've imagined, and I guess in 2 years it'll be apparent if he can eventually become a borderline all-star (he will become an all-star one day) or all-star like Collins or Amare.

I have no doubt he'll make highlight reels. In his rookie year he'll fill up the stat sheet more than most other rookies, and be talked about as a future hall of famer. He'll hit some big shots and no one will talk about his defense until some important playoff series down the road where he'll get targeted and be labelled a liability.

I could be wrong. I hope I am. I wish the best for him.

FWIW I think Collins and Amare would both have eventually succeeded in the NBA regardless of which team they ended up on.

He's not going to bust anywhere near as badly as Cole Anthony who might not even be in the league in 5 years

[Curmudgeon]

He's not going to bust anywhere near as badly as Cole Anthony who might not even be in the league in 5 years

Cole Anthony is Dennis Smith, Jr. waiting to happen.