Cooper Flagg

[WinterSoldier]

I assume this is directed at me. I've only taken a hard stance that I don't think Flagg is going to dominate college basketball and be a top 5 player like I'm seeing projected, or that he's comparable to players like AD, LeBron, Barkley, Bird etc I've seen him mentioned with. I also said one scrimmage where some of these national pundits slobber over him is pretty ridiculous, because it is. I watched the 10 minutes of it posted on youtube too.

Not really.

You overlook the fact that he was selected by these evaluators when forming the select team. So we need to get it out of the way that he was already projected good enough to be on the team.

Now we get to the scrimmage itself - he went from competing against 16 year Olds to holding his own against the best players in the world. Getting Buckets against some of the NBAs most elite defenders.

These pundits have every right to slobber over him. He was already projected to go number 1. Now we've seen him hold on his own against the best in the world. Many of us don't need to see him in college at this point to realize he's going to be special. Because a mere scrimmage against elite NBA players tells us way more than college games when evaluating how a kid will do long term. College games that don't even play the same playstyle of the NBA game, nevermind the vastly inferior competition. What you are basically saying is "he did well against the Boston Celtics Tuesdays night, but let's see how he does against the G-league fort Wayne mad ants" Friday.

So in your words he's going to be the number 1 player in college next year, obviously right if you believe all that.

All that from a scrimmage, coming off a year he averaged 16ppg, 7rpg, 4apg in HIGH SCHOOL and 9ppg the year prior.

So now he's going to come in and dominate college because he played well in a scrimmage that he probably treated like the biggest game in his life.You act like it was game 7 for the NBA players. They were practicing. Ever think he was pumped up, and they were just trying to not get hurt and get some reps in the middle of the summer.

He made a couple three's which isn't even his thing, (38% low volume in high school, 78% FT shooter). Ok crown him I guess, except he sucked in the McDonalds all American game in front of people if you want to hold exhibitions up as the end all be all. 3-9 shooting.

Why didn't he stand out on his high school team? Why didn't he block more shots or grab more rebounds? That has nothing to do with the coaching. The guy was just a 16ppg 7rpg guy on his HS team vs High schoolers. He didn't even stand out on his own team statistically. Barely led it in scoring tied in rebounding.

Again I've never said he can't be a good NBA player years from now or that he wouldn't be a #1 pick, but this best prospect since LeBron crap is stupid. So is projecting him to dominate college and be the best player in year one like many national media think.

Ok so what are his college stats next year? Better than 16ppg 7rpg? The guy that couldn't put up better stats on 17 year old high schoolers is going to do it in college next year right. Say it. A 17 and 200lb power forward is going to dominate college right? Let's get your projected stats on the record.

There is context and nuance that you are clearly missing or not seeing. His HS team Monteverde was the best HS team. Every starter and many backups are playing for major colleges like UConn, Baylor, Georgia, and other major teams. His team played the best competition in the country and he lead them in almost every category. In the summer he played AAU against the best players around the world and dominated. In peach jam against some of the top players in the country he had 104 points, 48 rebounds, 32 blocks, in three games.

Watch on YouTube

[BigGargamel]

I assume this is directed at me. I've only taken a hard stance that I don't think Flagg is going to dominate college basketball and be a top 5 player like I'm seeing projected, or that he's comparable to players like AD, LeBron, Barkley, Bird etc I've seen him mentioned with. I also said one scrimmage where some of these national pundits slobber over him is pretty ridiculous, because it is. I watched the 10 minutes of it posted on youtube too.

Not really.

You overlook the fact that he was selected by these evaluators when forming the select team. So we need to get it out of the way that he was already projected good enough to be on the team.

Now we get to the scrimmage itself - he went from competing against 16 year Olds to holding his own against the best players in the world. Getting Buckets against some of the NBAs most elite defenders.

These pundits have every right to slobber over him. He was already projected to go number 1. Now we've seen him hold on his own against the best in the world. Many of us don't need to see him in college at this point to realize he's going to be special. Because a mere scrimmage against elite NBA players tells us way more than college games when evaluating how a kid will do long term. College games that don't even play the same playstyle of the NBA game, nevermind the vastly inferior competition. What you are basically saying is "he did well against the Boston Celtics Tuesdays night, but let's see how he does against the G-league fort Wayne mad ants" Friday.

So in your words he's going to be the number 1 player in college next year, obviously right if you believe all that.

All that from a scrimmage, coming off a year he averaged 16ppg, 7rpg, 4apg in HIGH SCHOOL and 9ppg the year prior.

So now he's going to come in and dominate college because he played well in a scrimmage that he probably treated like the biggest game in his life.You act like it was game 7 for the NBA players. They were practicing. Ever think he was pumped up, and they were just trying to not get hurt and get some reps in the middle of the summer.

He made a couple three's which isn't even his thing, (38% low volume in high school, 78% FT shooter). Ok crown him I guess, except he sucked in the McDonalds all American game in front of people if you want to hold exhibitions up as the end all be all. 3-9 shooting.

Why didn't he stand out on his high school team? Why didn't he block more shots or grab more rebounds? That has nothing to do with the coaching. The guy was just a 16ppg 7rpg guy on his HS team vs High schoolers. He didn't even stand out on his own team statistically. Barely led it in scoring tied in rebounding.

Again I've never said he can't be a good NBA player years from now or that he wouldn't be a #1 pick, but this best prospect since LeBron crap is stupid. So is projecting him to dominate college and be the best player in year one like many national media think.

Ok so what are his college stats next year? Better than 16ppg 7rpg? The guy that couldn't put up better stats on 17 year old high schoolers is going to do it in college next year right. Say it. A 17 and 200lb power forward is going to dominate college right? Let's get your projected stats on the record.

This is definitely some of the laziest "analysis" I've ever seen.

Guys he shared a court with as a senior.

Liam McNeeley - 10th overall recruit
Derik Queen - 12th overall recruit
Asa Newell - 18th overall recruit
Rob Wright - 22 overall recruit

He played on a legitimate super team against other top USA high school programs. You expect him to average 30/15/10 like he's Zion playing with and against a bunch of South Carolina country bumpkins? Monteverde is run like a structured college program, with several other NBA talents on it.

What I quoted reeks of someone who just quickly looked at a box score and formed an opinion without taking anything at all into context. Be better than that, man.

[Duke4life831]

I assume this is directed at me. I've only taken a hard stance that I don't think Flagg is going to dominate college basketball and be a top 5 player like I'm seeing projected, or that he's comparable to players like AD, LeBron, Barkley, Bird etc I've seen him mentioned with. I also said one scrimmage where some of these national pundits slobber over him is pretty ridiculous, because it is. I watched the 10 minutes of it posted on youtube too.

Not really.

You overlook the fact that he was selected by these evaluators when forming the select team. So we need to get it out of the way that he was already projected good enough to be on the team.

Now we get to the scrimmage itself - he went from competing against 16 year Olds to holding his own against the best players in the world. Getting Buckets against some of the NBAs most elite defenders.

These pundits have every right to slobber over him. He was already projected to go number 1. Now we've seen him hold on his own against the best in the world. Many of us don't need to see him in college at this point to realize he's going to be special. Because a mere scrimmage against elite NBA players tells us way more than college games when evaluating how a kid will do long term. College games that don't even play the same playstyle of the NBA game, nevermind the vastly inferior competition. What you are basically saying is "he did well against the Boston Celtics Tuesdays night, but let's see how he does against the G-league fort Wayne mad ants" Friday.

So in your words he's going to be the number 1 player in college next year, obviously right if you believe all that.

All that from a scrimmage, coming off a year he averaged 16ppg, 7rpg, 4apg in HIGH SCHOOL and 9ppg the year prior.

So now he's going to come in and dominate college because he played well in a scrimmage that he probably treated like the biggest game in his life.You act like it was game 7 for the NBA players. They were practicing. Ever think he was pumped up, and they were just trying to not get hurt and get some reps in the middle of the summer.

He made a couple three's which isn't even his thing, (38% low volume in high school, 78% FT shooter). Ok crown him I guess, except he sucked in the McDonalds all American game in front of people if you want to hold exhibitions up as the end all be all. 3-9 shooting.

Why didn't he stand out on his high school team? Why didn't he block more shots or grab more rebounds? That has nothing to do with the coaching. The guy was just a 16ppg 7rpg guy on his HS team vs High schoolers. He didn't even stand out on his own team statistically. Barely led it in scoring tied in rebounding.

Again I've never said he can't be a good NBA player years from now or that he wouldn't be a #1 pick, but this best prospect since LeBron crap is stupid. So is projecting him to dominate college and be the best player in year one like many national media think.

Ok so what are his college stats next year? Better than 16ppg 7rpg? The guy that couldn't put up better stats on 17 year old high schoolers is going to do it in college next year right. Say it. A 17 and 200lb power forward is going to dominate college right? Let's get your projected stats on the record.

I hate to be this guy, but its clear youre dealing with pretty limited knowledge here. And to be clear I dont hold it against anyone who doesnt follow high school basketball.

Why didnt he stand out on his high school team? He did, he literally won high school national player of the year. That is kind of the definition of standing out.

A few things to consider when looking at his stats (and everyone on Montverde), that team was unbelievably stacked and no one had high usage on that team (by design). This Montverde team is viewed by many to be one of the more dominant high school teams in the last few decades, thats how stacked that team was. And all the players bought into the team first concept. Also a good chunk of their games, they won by 40+ points and Flagg and the rest of the starters didnt play full minutes. You also have to factor in that these games are only 32 minutes.

Again trying to compare high school stats from one player to another is pretty pointless. Kon Knueppel (another incoming Duke player) averaged 26/9/5 as a Senior. There is a reason he didnt win high school NPOY, its because what Flagg did was far more impressive. Kon averaged more rebounds than Flagg or Derik Queen, who is a top 15 recruit who is 6'10 and played the 5 at Montverde. No one views Kon as a better rebounder than either of those guys. Its because Kon at 6'5 was the center for his team and was almost bigger than anyone he faced for the majority of the year.

High school stats are pretty pointless. Luke Kennard scored more points in Ohio high school basketball than LeBron James.

Again if you say something along the lines of, "why didnt Cooper Flagg stand out on his own high school team?" Im assuming all youre doing is looking at stats and didnt actually pay attention to the high school basketball season. Because if you did, youd wouldve seen how Flagg had a ton of hype going into the season and he surpassed everyone's expectations.

To be clear, Ive got no issue at all with someone not buying into all the hype for him. I just think the arguments youre making are really bad.

[Ice Man]

I don't follow HS basketball and also wondered about Flagg's seemingly low stats, so thanks for the explanation. That makes sense.

[12footrim]

Not really.

You overlook the fact that he was selected by these evaluators when forming the select team. So we need to get it out of the way that he was already projected good enough to be on the team.

Now we get to the scrimmage itself - he went from competing against 16 year Olds to holding his own against the best players in the world. Getting Buckets against some of the NBAs most elite defenders.

These pundits have every right to slobber over him. He was already projected to go number 1. Now we've seen him hold on his own against the best in the world. Many of us don't need to see him in college at this point to realize he's going to be special. Because a mere scrimmage against elite NBA players tells us way more than college games when evaluating how a kid will do long term. College games that don't even play the same playstyle of the NBA game, nevermind the vastly inferior competition. What you are basically saying is "he did well against the Boston Celtics Tuesdays night, but let's see how he does against the G-league fort Wayne mad ants" Friday.

So in your words he's going to be the number 1 player in college next year, obviously right if you believe all that.

All that from a scrimmage, coming off a year he averaged 16ppg, 7rpg, 4apg in HIGH SCHOOL and 9ppg the year prior.

So now he's going to come in and dominate college because he played well in a scrimmage that he probably treated like the biggest game in his life.You act like it was game 7 for the NBA players. They were practicing. Ever think he was pumped up, and they were just trying to not get hurt and get some reps in the middle of the summer.

He made a couple three's which isn't even his thing, (38% low volume in high school, 78% FT shooter). Ok crown him I guess, except he sucked in the McDonalds all American game in front of people if you want to hold exhibitions up as the end all be all. 3-9 shooting.

Why didn't he stand out on his high school team? Why didn't he block more shots or grab more rebounds? That has nothing to do with the coaching. The guy was just a 16ppg 7rpg guy on his HS team vs High schoolers. He didn't even stand out on his own team statistically. Barely led it in scoring tied in rebounding.

Again I've never said he can't be a good NBA player years from now or that he wouldn't be a #1 pick, but this best prospect since LeBron crap is stupid. So is projecting him to dominate college and be the best player in year one like many national media think.

Ok so what are his college stats next year? Better than 16ppg 7rpg? The guy that couldn't put up better stats on 17 year old high schoolers is going to do it in college next year right. Say it. A 17 and 200lb power forward is going to dominate college right? Let's get your projected stats on the record.

There is context and nuance that you are clearly missing or not seeing. His HS team Monteverde was the best HS team. Every starter and many backups are playing for major colleges like UConn, Baylor, Georgia, and other major teams. His team played the best competition in the country and he lead them in almost every category. In the summer he played AAU against the best players around the world and dominated. In peach jam against some of the top players in the country he had 104 points, 48 rebounds, 32 blocks, in three games.

Watch on YouTube

That was vs the 16 year old division I'm pretty sure. No one has disputed he developed early, he was playing on the older USA team when he was 15. He should dominate them.

All that other stuff while true doesn't matter. He wasn't even standing out on his team. If you are the best high school prospect on since LeBron as billed, should you dominate high school and stand out on your own team no matter how good they are. He will play with better at Duke vs guys 5 or 6 years older, you think he's going to outshine them massively playing better competition if he couldn't his HS teammates. That's my point. He didn't and the style had nothing to do with him getting a rebound or block or shooting so so percentages when he did shoot. Ace Baily played on the 12th ranked team nationally and put up 33 and 15 on great percentages also playing a national schedule.

[12footrim]

Not really.

You overlook the fact that he was selected by these evaluators when forming the select team. So we need to get it out of the way that he was already projected good enough to be on the team.

Now we get to the scrimmage itself - he went from competing against 16 year Olds to holding his own against the best players in the world. Getting Buckets against some of the NBAs most elite defenders.

These pundits have every right to slobber over him. He was already projected to go number 1. Now we've seen him hold on his own against the best in the world. Many of us don't need to see him in college at this point to realize he's going to be special. Because a mere scrimmage against elite NBA players tells us way more than college games when evaluating how a kid will do long term. College games that don't even play the same playstyle of the NBA game, nevermind the vastly inferior competition. What you are basically saying is "he did well against the Boston Celtics Tuesdays night, but let's see how he does against the G-league fort Wayne mad ants" Friday.

So in your words he's going to be the number 1 player in college next year, obviously right if you believe all that.

All that from a scrimmage, coming off a year he averaged 16ppg, 7rpg, 4apg in HIGH SCHOOL and 9ppg the year prior.

So now he's going to come in and dominate college because he played well in a scrimmage that he probably treated like the biggest game in his life.You act like it was game 7 for the NBA players. They were practicing. Ever think he was pumped up, and they were just trying to not get hurt and get some reps in the middle of the summer.

He made a couple three's which isn't even his thing, (38% low volume in high school, 78% FT shooter). Ok crown him I guess, except he sucked in the McDonalds all American game in front of people if you want to hold exhibitions up as the end all be all. 3-9 shooting.

Why didn't he stand out on his high school team? Why didn't he block more shots or grab more rebounds? That has nothing to do with the coaching. The guy was just a 16ppg 7rpg guy on his HS team vs High schoolers. He didn't even stand out on his own team statistically. Barely led it in scoring tied in rebounding.

Again I've never said he can't be a good NBA player years from now or that he wouldn't be a #1 pick, but this best prospect since LeBron crap is stupid. So is projecting him to dominate college and be the best player in year one like many national media think.

Ok so what are his college stats next year? Better than 16ppg 7rpg? The guy that couldn't put up better stats on 17 year old high schoolers is going to do it in college next year right. Say it. A 17 and 200lb power forward is going to dominate college right? Let's get your projected stats on the record.

This is definitely some of the laziest "analysis" I've ever seen.

Guys he shared a court with as a senior.

Liam McNeeley - 10th overall recruit
Derik Queen - 12th overall recruit
Asa Newell - 18th overall recruit
Rob Wright - 22 overall recruit

He played on a legitimate super team against other top USA high school programs. You expect him to average 30/15/10 like he's Zion playing with and against a bunch of South Carolina country bumpkins? Monteverde is run like a structured college program, with several other NBA talents on it.

What I quoted reeks of someone who just quickly looked at a box score and formed an opinion without taking anything at all into context. Be better than that, man.

I'm well aware of each of those players, and many other former top prospects that played on great teams and didn't average meh stats like Flagg. Ace Baily this year played on the 12th ranked team and a national schedule and put up 33 and 15. You missed the point on Zion too, it's not that Zion averaged 33 points he did it on 85% shooting in 23 mintues a game.

WTF stands out about anything Flagg did? He shot meh percentages for HS, and a teamate tied him in PPG and rebounding. He was just a dude on that team. The year prior he was a 9ppg guy behind several of those players too. No structure was stopping him from grabbing rebounds from his teammates or other high schoolers. 7.5 a game man. What is impressive about that? Even the blocks were meh for a high school.

If you are billed as the Best high school prospect since LeBron come on. Everyone is picking him as one of the top 5 or so college players. Do you think it gets any easier next year at Duke if he couldn't dominate high schoolers or be the clear star of his own high school team. That's an unlikely outcome that he moves up a level and dominate more. It's happened sure, but the odds say he averages worse stats and these were already unimpressive.

[Michael Beasley]

tyler hansborough with handles

[12footrim]

Not really.

You overlook the fact that he was selected by these evaluators when forming the select team. So we need to get it out of the way that he was already projected good enough to be on the team.

Now we get to the scrimmage itself - he went from competing against 16 year Olds to holding his own against the best players in the world. Getting Buckets against some of the NBAs most elite defenders.

These pundits have every right to slobber over him. He was already projected to go number 1. Now we've seen him hold on his own against the best in the world. Many of us don't need to see him in college at this point to realize he's going to be special. Because a mere scrimmage against elite NBA players tells us way more than college games when evaluating how a kid will do long term. College games that don't even play the same playstyle of the NBA game, nevermind the vastly inferior competition. What you are basically saying is "he did well against the Boston Celtics Tuesdays night, but let's see how he does against the G-league fort Wayne mad ants" Friday.

So in your words he's going to be the number 1 player in college next year, obviously right if you believe all that.

All that from a scrimmage, coming off a year he averaged 16ppg, 7rpg, 4apg in HIGH SCHOOL and 9ppg the year prior.

So now he's going to come in and dominate college because he played well in a scrimmage that he probably treated like the biggest game in his life.You act like it was game 7 for the NBA players. They were practicing. Ever think he was pumped up, and they were just trying to not get hurt and get some reps in the middle of the summer.

He made a couple three's which isn't even his thing, (38% low volume in high school, 78% FT shooter). Ok crown him I guess, except he sucked in the McDonalds all American game in front of people if you want to hold exhibitions up as the end all be all. 3-9 shooting.

Why didn't he stand out on his high school team? Why didn't he block more shots or grab more rebounds? That has nothing to do with the coaching. The guy was just a 16ppg 7rpg guy on his HS team vs High schoolers. He didn't even stand out on his own team statistically. Barely led it in scoring tied in rebounding.

Again I've never said he can't be a good NBA player years from now or that he wouldn't be a #1 pick, but this best prospect since LeBron crap is stupid. So is projecting him to dominate college and be the best player in year one like many national media think.

Ok so what are his college stats next year? Better than 16ppg 7rpg? The guy that couldn't put up better stats on 17 year old high schoolers is going to do it in college next year right. Say it. A 17 and 200lb power forward is going to dominate college right? Let's get your projected stats on the record.

I hate to be this guy, but its clear youre dealing with pretty limited knowledge here. And to be clear I dont hold it against anyone who doesnt follow high school basketball.

Why didnt he stand out on his high school team? He did, he literally won high school national player of the year. That is kind of the definition of standing out.

A few things to consider when looking at his stats (and everyone on Montverde), that team was unbelievably stacked and no one had high usage on that team (by design). This Montverde team is viewed by many to be one of the more dominant high school teams in the last few decades, thats how stacked that team was. And all the players bought into the team first concept. Also a good chunk of their games, they won by 40+ points and Flagg and the rest of the starters didnt play full minutes. You also have to factor in that these games are only 32 minutes.

Again trying to compare high school stats from one player to another is pretty pointless. Kon Knueppel (another incoming Duke player) averaged 26/9/5 as a Senior. There is a reason he didnt win high school NPOY, its because what Flagg did was far more impressive. Kon averaged more rebounds than Flagg or Derik Queen, who is a top 15 recruit who is 6'10 and played the 5 at Montverde. No one views Kon as a better rebounder than either of those guys. Its because Kon at 6'5 was the center for his team and was almost bigger than anyone he faced for the majority of the year.

High school stats are pretty pointless. Luke Kennard scored more points in Ohio high school basketball than LeBron James.

Again if you say something along the lines of, "why didnt Cooper Flagg stand out on his own high school team?" Im assuming all youre doing is looking at stats and didnt actually pay attention to the high school basketball season. Because if you did, youd wouldve seen how Flagg had a ton of hype going into the season and he surpassed everyone's expectations.

To be clear, Ive got no issue
at all with someone not buying into all the hype for him. I just think the arguments youre making are really bad.

We'll I think you are biased and your arguments are terrible too. I could point to other past top prospects on top 10 teams over the years, and almost none of them are rocking 16ppg 7rpg averages on mediocre shooting. You know so much give me that list of Top 10 recruits on top 10 national teams averaging numbers like that and we'll judge how they did....

Look at these stats....



here was the year before



This past year, it's a very standard stat sheet just like you would expect to see. The 5 players are averaging 11 to 16ppg. Little usage beyond that, and while there are no minutes on this years stats that doesn't even look like anyone else is playing much besides those 5.

When I say he didn't stand out on his own high school team, I mean he literally didn't average more points and rebounds than his own teammates.

If you are billed as the best prospect since LeBron you can't really out shine on your own high school team? I don't give a **** if it has 4 other good players it has on it. What, he can't go grab 12 rebounds or block 5 shots a game if he a once in 2 decades prospect and shine on his team?

That has little to do with those around him unless they are outshining or matching him, and nothing to do with structure or some egalitarian offense. Even if you take that as true, you can't hit better than 38% from the short high school three point line on your low volume got to be mostly wide open shots on that volume? You can't shoot 80+ percent from the FT line? There was nothing he was doing that screams super star in the actual tangible stats. Blocks came the closest and even that was kind of average.

As far as the awards, that's all-narrative crap and those people get on the bandwagon and just ride it, many times into a ditch with these top prospects when many bust out. I'm not saying Flagg is that, but he's not freaking the best prospect since LeBron or all the hype around him which continues to be inflated, at some point people don't push against it because they are scared to look stupid.

[Hook_Em]

This seems like an Albert Pujols situation. No way dude is 17.

[Duke4life831]

So in your words he's going to be the number 1 player in college next year, obviously right if you believe all that.

All that from a scrimmage, coming off a year he averaged 16ppg, 7rpg, 4apg in HIGH SCHOOL and 9ppg the year prior.

So now he's going to come in and dominate college because he played well in a scrimmage that he probably treated like the biggest game in his life.You act like it was game 7 for the NBA players. They were practicing. Ever think he was pumped up, and they were just trying to not get hurt and get some reps in the middle of the summer.

He made a couple three's which isn't even his thing, (38% low volume in high school, 78% FT shooter). Ok crown him I guess, except he sucked in the McDonalds all American game in front of people if you want to hold exhibitions up as the end all be all. 3-9 shooting.

Why didn't he stand out on his high school team? Why didn't he block more shots or grab more rebounds? That has nothing to do with the coaching. The guy was just a 16ppg 7rpg guy on his HS team vs High schoolers. He didn't even stand out on his own team statistically. Barely led it in scoring tied in rebounding.

Again I've never said he can't be a good NBA player years from now or that he wouldn't be a #1 pick, but this best prospect since LeBron crap is stupid. So is projecting him to dominate college and be the best player in year one like many national media think.

Ok so what are his college stats next year? Better than 16ppg 7rpg? The guy that couldn't put up better stats on 17 year old high schoolers is going to do it in college next year right. Say it. A 17 and 200lb power forward is going to dominate college right? Let's get your projected stats on the record.

I hate to be this guy, but its clear youre dealing with pretty limited knowledge here. And to be clear I dont hold it against anyone who doesnt follow high school basketball.

Why didnt he stand out on his high school team? He did, he literally won high school national player of the year. That is kind of the definition of standing out.

A few things to consider when looking at his stats (and everyone on Montverde), that team was unbelievably stacked and no one had high usage on that team (by design). This Montverde team is viewed by many to be one of the more dominant high school teams in the last few decades, thats how stacked that team was. And all the players bought into the team first concept. Also a good chunk of their games, they won by 40+ points and Flagg and the rest of the starters didnt play full minutes. You also have to factor in that these games are only 32 minutes.

Again trying to compare high school stats from one player to another is pretty pointless. Kon Knueppel (another incoming Duke player) averaged 26/9/5 as a Senior. There is a reason he didnt win high school NPOY, its because what Flagg did was far more impressive. Kon averaged more rebounds than Flagg or Derik Queen, who is a top 15 recruit who is 6'10 and played the 5 at Montverde. No one views Kon as a better rebounder than either of those guys. Its because Kon at 6'5 was the center for his team and was almost bigger than anyone he faced for the majority of the year.

High school stats are pretty pointless. Luke Kennard scored more points in Ohio high school basketball than LeBron James.

Again if you say something along the lines of, "why didnt Cooper Flagg stand out on his own high school team?" Im assuming all youre doing is looking at stats and didnt actually pay attention to the high school basketball season. Because if you did, youd wouldve seen how Flagg had a ton of hype going into the season and he surpassed everyone's expectations.

To be clear, Ive got no issue at all with someone not buying into all the hype for him. I just think the arguments youre making are really bad.

Look at these stats....



It's a very standard stat sheet just like you would expect to see. The 5 players are averaging 11 to 16ppg. Little usage beyond that, and while there are no minutes on this years stats that doesn't even look like anyone else is playing much besides those 5.

When I say he didn't stand out on his own high school team, I mean he literally didn't average more points and rebounds than his own teammates.

If you are billed as the best prospect since LeBron you can't shine on your own high school team. I don't give a **** if it has 4 other good players it has on it. What he can't go grab 12 rebounds or block 5 shots a game if he a once in 2 decades prospect. That has little to do with those around him unless they are outshining or matching him, and nothing to do with structure or some egalitarian offense. Even if you take that as true, you can't hit better than 38% from the short high school three point line on your low volume got to be mostly wide open shots on that volume? You can't shoot 80+ percent from the FT line? There was nothing he was doing that screams super star in the actual tangible stats. Blocks came the closest and even that was kind of average.

As far as the awards, that's all narrative crap and those people get on the bandwagon and just ride it, many times into a ditch with these top prospects when they bust out. I'm not saying Flagg is that, but he's not freaking the best prospect since LeBron or all the hype around him.

On one of the best teams high school has seen in a long time. Flagg was 1st in scoring, rebounding, steals, blocks, and 2nd in assists. The steals and blocks also didn’t factor in Flagg was by far the best defensive player on the team. When Montverde would play against another top team in the country that had some of the best prospects in high school, guess who was defending the best player? It was Flagg. Whether that was a freak talent big wing like AJ Dybantsa or a top tier athletic guard like VJ Edgecombe, Flagg was the primary defender.

Honest question, do you think Flagg won NBA Camp Top 100 MVP, put up ridiculous stats at Peach Jam and led a severely limited team to the championship, kept his #1 rank (even after reclassing) all season long, won every individual award this past high school season, was the 1st 17 year old to be invited to the US Select team in 40 years. All just because narratives and people jumping on the bandwagon? You don’t think anyone that follows high school basketball and youth prospects were able to look at a basic box score and say what you’re saying?

And again when it comes to his stats compared to his teammates. The fact that he averaged as many rebounds as Derick Queen is extremely impressive. Queen is a top 15 recruit and a dominant inside presence. Flagg plays out on the perimeter a ton, the fact that Flagg is teammates with one of the best bigs and is grabbing as many rebounds as him is impressive. The fact that he averaged more points than Queen and McNeely is very impressive. Queen again is dominant down low and McNeely is one of the best scorers in this year’s class.

Maybe just maybe Flagg doing all of this isn’t just narrative and people jumping on the bandwagon. Maybe the people who actually follow this stuff and watch high school prospects are blown away with what he did. Again trying to compare individual high school stats is one of the dumbest and most pointless things to do. It’s a big reason why individual stats during high school season rarely get talked about. They’re pretty much pointless.

[UcanUwill]

This seems like an Albert Pujols situation. No way dude is 17.

Are you familiar with this guy. Luke Littler? That guy is 17, you could cast him as Flaggs father in a movie

[Michael Beasley]

looking at hs stats is silly, there's no shot clock and the pacing is atrocious

[firedavidkahn]

So in your words he's going to be the number 1 player in college next year, obviously right if you believe all that.

All that from a scrimmage, coming off a year he averaged 16ppg, 7rpg, 4apg in HIGH SCHOOL and 9ppg the year prior.

So now he's going to come in and dominate college because he played well in a scrimmage that he probably treated like the biggest game in his life.You act like it was game 7 for the NBA players. They were practicing. Ever think he was pumped up, and they were just trying to not get hurt and get some reps in the middle of the summer.

He made a couple three's which isn't even his thing, (38% low volume in high school, 78% FT shooter). Ok crown him I guess, except he sucked in the McDonalds all American game in front of people if you want to hold exhibitions up as the end all be all. 3-9 shooting.

Why didn't he stand out on his high school team? Why didn't he block more shots or grab more rebounds? That has nothing to do with the coaching. The guy was just a 16ppg 7rpg guy on his HS team vs High schoolers. He didn't even stand out on his own team statistically. Barely led it in scoring tied in rebounding.

Again I've never said he can't be a good NBA player years from now or that he wouldn't be a #1 pick, but this best prospect since LeBron crap is stupid. So is projecting him to dominate college and be the best player in year one like many national media think.

Ok so what are his college stats next year? Better than 16ppg 7rpg? The guy that couldn't put up better stats on 17 year old high schoolers is going to do it in college next year right. Say it. A 17 and 200lb power forward is going to dominate college right? Let's get your projected stats on the record.

There is context and nuance that you are clearly missing or not seeing. His HS team Monteverde was the best HS team. Every starter and many backups are playing for major colleges like UConn, Baylor, Georgia, and other major teams. His team played the best competition in the country and he lead them in almost every category. In the summer he played AAU against the best players around the world and dominated. In peach jam against some of the top players in the country he had 104 points, 48 rebounds, 32 blocks, in three games.

Watch on YouTube

That was vs the 16 year old division I'm pretty sure. No one has disputed he developed early, he was playing on the older USA team when he was 15. He should dominate them.

All that other stuff while true doesn't matter. He wasn't even standing out on his team. If you are the best high school prospect on since LeBron as billed, should you dominate high school and stand out on your own team no matter how good they are. He will play with better at Duke vs guys 5 or 6 years older, you think he's going to outshine them massively playing better competition if he couldn't his HS teammates. That's my point. He didn't and the style had nothing to do with him getting a rebound or block or shooting so so percentages when he did shoot. Ace Baily played on the 12th ranked team nationally and put up 33 and 15 on great percentages also playing a national schedule.

I love seeing people keep doubling down when their arguments get destroyed

[Hornet Mania]

This seems like an Albert Pujols situation. No way dude is 17.

After all the speculation surrounding the age of African players (I remember people bringing it up a lot with Biyombo, who was legit the age he claimed) it would be kind of hilarious if a white kid from Maine was the one who pulled off the most high-profile case of birth certificate fraud in NBA history.

[12footrim]

On one of the best teams high school has seen in a long time. Flagg was 1st in scoring, rebounding, steals, blocks, and 2nd in assists. The steals and blocks also didn’t factor in Flagg was by far the best defensive player on the team. When Montverde would play against another top team in the country that had some of the best prospects in high school, guess who was defending the best player? It was Flagg. Whether that was a freak talent big wing like AJ Dybantsa or a top tier athletic guard like VJ Edgecombe, Flagg was the primary defender.

I added some things to my other post you apparently missed or didn't address.

Also I think you are extremely biased for obvious reason, and your arguments are terrible too. I could point to many other past top prospects on dominate or top 10 national teams over the years, who are the ones rocking 16ppg 7rpg averages on mediocre shooting splits? You think you know so much, so give me that list of Top 10 recruits on top 10 national teams averaging THAT, and we'll judge how they did in college and the NBA.

Honest question, do you think Flagg won NBA Camp Top 100 MVP, put up ridiculous stats at Peach Jam and led a severely limited team to the championship, kept his #1 rank (even after reclassing) all season long, won every individual award this past high school season, was the 1st 17 year old to be invited to the US Select team in 40 years. All just because narratives and people jumping on the bandwagon? You don’t think anyone that follows high school basketball and youth prospects were able to look at a basic box score and say what you’re saying?

Again the Peach Jam was vs 15 and 16 years olds, not the older division. No one has disputed Flagg was an early developer, he played great at 15 on the U17 national team and should have dominated kids his age. I'm well aware of all of that. What I honestly think happened is the narrative started back then and it's been nothing but hype and momentum since to the point now you get the stupid "best high schooler since LeBron" stuff I'm addressing. The things you point out like being selected to the US select team are just people giving these awards feeding into this set narrative. There is no way he actually deserved to be on that team BTW. He freaking averaged 9ppg a year and a half ago on his high school team and you are talking about scrimmages and camps




Once this thing got momentum, no one in the media is going to push back on it for fear of looking stupid IMO. I just look at the facts of what he's actually doing on the court. Certainly he could make me look stupid, but it's not likely hes going to roll into duke and averaged 19ppg 9rppg when he averaged 16ppg 7 on his high school team. That' s just common sense, and he'd need those kind of numbers at minimum to meet the kind of best college player expectations people have put on him. He's 17 and 200lbs too vs 23 year olds.

And again when it comes to his stats compared to his teammates. The fact that he averaged as many rebounds as Derick Queen is extremely impressive. Queen is a top 15 recruit and a dominant inside presence. Flagg plays out on the perimeter a ton, the fact that Flagg is teammates with one of the best bigs and is grabbing as many rebounds as him is impressive. The fact that he averaged more points than Queen and McNeely is very impressive. Queen again is dominant down low and McNeely is one of the best scorers in this year’s class.

That weak **** impresses you. Flagg is billed as the best HS prospect since LeBron, ridiculously selected to play vs NBA players pre olympics, projected to be a top 5 college player and can't averaged 10 rebounds in high school with a few other top high school prospects. Get real man. You put high school Zion on this same team and you are insane if you think he would have averaged 16 and 7 on 55%

Maybe just maybe Flagg doing all of this isn’t just narrative and people jumping on the bandwagon. Maybe the people who actually follow this stuff and watch high school prospects are blown away with what he did. Again trying to compare individual high school stats is one of the dumbest and most pointless things to do. It’s a big reason why individual stats during high school season rarely get talked about. They’re pretty much pointless.

Yeah, bro, not like these narrative setters don't get tons of crap wrong on these top high school prospects EVERY YEAR. Not like there aren't dozens of bust and thousands of transfers correcting the market on all the misses each year either.

Again, you know so much so give me all these other top 10 prospects on top 10 national teams averaging 16ppg 7rpg. Let's see them. What's dumb is ignoring the tangible facts that doesn't fit into your narrative so you are getting butthurt when you can't explain the lack of production.

If Flagg is truly truly exceptional, where are the other generational talents averaging similar stats like 16 PPG and 7 RPG? The point isn’t that the stats themselves are crucial; it’s that he isn't dominating, not even on his own team, which raises questions. Dominating stats don't always predict future success, but a lack of dominance can be a major red flag to the stupid level of hype this guy gets.

[12footrim]

There is context and nuance that you are clearly missing or not seeing. His HS team Monteverde was the best HS team. Every starter and many backups are playing for major colleges like UConn, Baylor, Georgia, and other major teams. His team played the best competition in the country and he lead them in almost every category. In the summer he played AAU against the best players around the world and dominated. In peach jam against some of the top players in the country he had 104 points, 48 rebounds, 32 blocks, in three games.

Watch on YouTube

That was vs the 16 year old division I'm pretty sure. No one has disputed he developed early, he was playing on the older USA team when he was 15. He should dominate them.

All that other stuff while true doesn't matter. He wasn't even standing out on his team. If you are the best high school prospect on since LeBron as billed, should you dominate high school and stand out on your own team no matter how good they are. He will play with better at Duke vs guys 5 or 6 years older, you think he's going to outshine them massively playing better competition if he couldn't his HS teammates. That's my point. He didn't and the style had nothing to do with him getting a rebound or block or shooting so so percentages when he did shoot. Ace Baily played on the 12th ranked team nationally and put up 33 and 15 on great percentages also playing a national schedule.

I love seeing people keep doubling down when their arguments get destroyed

It's funny you think that my argument was destroyed by punking 15 year olds. That was the 16U. I just looked it up to make sure and that was vs U16. For a guy that had played on the U17 USA team at 15 years old the year before, he SHOULD have dominated a bunch of 15 and 16 year olds. Someone earlier said he averaged 20ppg and 13rpg which isn't even that crazy, but who really cares.

He averaged 9.8ppg, 5.2rpg in high school 3 months earlier vs the older kids in an actual structured coached season of 25 games. That's the larger more meaningful sample that year, not some AAU tourny vs 15 year olds.

"Best high school prospect since LeBron James"

[UcanUwill]

This seems like an Albert Pujols situation. No way dude is 17.

After all the speculation surrounding the age of African players (I remember people bringing it up a lot with Biyombo, who was legit the age he claimed) it would be kind of hilarious if a white kid from Maine was the one who pulled off the most high-profile case of birth certificate fraud in NBA history.

Shabazz Muhammad. Remember him?

[Hook_Em]

This seems like an Albert Pujols situation. No way dude is 17.

After all the speculation surrounding the age of African players (I remember people bringing it up a lot with Biyombo, who was legit the age he claimed) it would be kind of hilarious if a white kid from Maine was the one who pulled off the most high-profile case of birth certificate fraud in NBA history.

I’m sure he’s legit but I can’t get Channing Tatum in 21 Jump Street pretending to be a high school kid out of my head when I see him.

[12footrim]

What I quoted reeks of someone who just quickly looked at a box score and formed an opinion without taking anything at all into context. Be better than that, man.

I doubt you will ever talk to anyone who has done as much in-depth research on basketball as I have. I got a solid track record, and I've done more statistical translations than almost anyone, with my own model cited on places like Sports Illustrated.

I've gotten stuff wrong as everyone will, but I have been against the grain on many things and correct many times too. Just last year I pushed back on Duke's projected All American teenager, sound familiar? I saw my work being brutally mocked on a Duke message board.


Yet it was right.

It's kind of hard to be great with lame stats. It's not rocket science, just like it's not rocket science that a 17 year 200lb PF who averaged 16, 7 and 4 in high school probably isn't going to be a top 5 player college basketball player nationally like people are projecting Flagg to dominate college, in the super senior era no less. Few freshmen are from my research anyway in the super senior era, much less ones with his statistical background or age.

These are the same people that projected Proctor an All American last year which I pointed out was ridiculous and NAILED it. I nailed most of them like Cam Spencer no one even had on other top 100 player list I had top 50. It's not even hard to find these examples, they stand out with very few exceptions that are the outliers in the methodology. The stats tell you a lot, even high school stats when they don't actually pop off the page. It's an objective measure that sees every minute of every game.

[BigGargamel]

"Best high school prospect since LeBron James"

I mean, no one is really saying this in this thread whatsoever, so I'm not sure what you're going on about. I'm sure ESPN has said it before but it's their job to sell hyperbole. No one who actually knows NBA drafts think he's a can't miss generational talent. But he does have All Star talent. He's my clear pick to be #1 right now but I could see a couple guys catching up to him.

But you are being lazy with your "analysis", but I didn't know you were a Sports Illustrated expert with impeccable talent, so I apologize. We bask in your glory, Amen.