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Doc, that's the thing -- to me, you have to give these guys at least a cursory benefit of the doubt. In West's case, that he would develop both hands, and that as a great mid-range shooter, he'd be able to develop a pretty respectable 3-point shot.

Tongue in cheek, I'd also wonder how someone wound as tightly as Jerry would operate in an era where somebody failing to shake hands with his opponents after losing a playoff series is national news.

tsherkin wrote:

Blame Rasho wrote:
Guys like Mikan,Pettit, Russell,Wilt,Roberson, and Baylor were transcendent players and would be great in any era but Cousy wasn't.

Right with you expect for Mikan. As soon as they widened the lane in his OWN time, his FG% dropped off the map. He'd have no physical advantage at all in today's league because he'd be below-average height for a center, not dominant in strength and he'd have none of the footspeed or athleticism than even a COMPARATIVELY unathletic guy like Al Jefferson has. And while his Mikan Drill was revolutionary then, it's basic practice for all post players now. He wouldn't rebound well, he wouldn't score efficiently... and I'd be shocked out of my mind if he made an NBA team in the modern era.

The other guys? I'd be shocked if they weren't All-Stars. Wilt, I'm fairly confident, would be instantaneously a top-3 player even if you literally ported him from the mid-60s into the modern league, forgetting lead-in time and whatever.

Also on Mikan, I've heard the reason his 56 comeback flamed out was he didn't have the endurance to run up and down the court every 15-20 seconds, as opposed to the plodding pre shot clock style. That makes me think this guy would just have no chance.

I think Mikan might be a good college player (and that's a big might), who then gets drafted like 50th and is a longshot to ever make it in the NBA. Omar Sanham is the name that immediately comes to mind.

Cousy is the other one I don't see doing much in today's NBA... if he learned a good 3pt shot he could have a long career as a backup, but I see his career as a 'in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king' thing

Most of the other guys should be fine. There would be some drop-offs, I think Jerry Lucas would be more like Troy Murphy and guys who made a living off shooting when most weren't that good at it (Sharman, Twyman, etc.) probably would be more like Anthony Parker, as mentioned

I think poor man's Bryant Reeves when I imagine George playing modern basketball.

At best Jerry West is 6'3. He is an undersized shooting guard. He is not athletic. Vertical in the high 30's? I have my doubts. Either way there is a difference in on court vertical and off court vertical. Afterall, Redick''s and Hinrich's verticals were only one inch shorter than Iguodala's at the combine. Yet the difference between those two and Iguodala is astronomical. Frankly Jerry West's game in the 60s is elementary today.

Sedale Threatt wrote:

Frosty wrote:It was an exaggeration but he's not gonna be able to drive when everyone just overplays his strong hand. This is a huge handicap and I can't see him getting off the bench with it.

If we're going to engage in this discussion, isn't it fair to assume these guys would benefit from modern coaching, rather than simply plug them into the modern era in a vaccum?

I have generally the same reaction as you do when I see clips of Oscar or Jerry. But if you don't at least give them the assumption they'd learn what is now a pretty basic skill, I don't see the point of the discussion.

I said I'm just going by the OP's boundaries which said could they make it with their skillset they had back then. Of course things have changed drastically and you can't get away with one handed dribbling anymore.

Official wrote:At best Jerry West is 6'3. He is an undersized shooting guard. He is not athletic. Vertical in the high 30's? I have my doubts. Either way there is a difference in on court vertical and off court vertical. Afterall, Redick''s and Hinrich's verticals were only one inch shorter than Iguodala's at the combine. Yet the difference between those two and Iguodala is astronomical. Frankly Jerry West's game in the 60s is elementary today.

Man, there's picture evidence of him with his elbow at the rim in college, dunking the basketball. And since he played mostly PG during a good portion of his career, fine, he's an undersized two who'd end up playing at the one anyway and making it an irrelevant discussion. He WAS athletic, you are wrong. Yeah, West wouldn't have the same kind of quickness that, say, Chris Paul and Rondo work with, but with his jumper, a modern day example of Steve Nash would suffice. He gets by on skill instead, and is still reasonably athletic besides (and not as good a leaper as was West).

More importantly, you can use screens (something West did all the time) to limit the efficacy of an individual defender.

I'm failing to see where you're going with this. West wasn't an elite-tier athlete like a Chris Paul but he had more than sufficient NBA athletic ability.

Using AST%, Jerry West's passing is more along the lines of Jamal Crawford, who is incapable of running an offense.

I like the Nash comparison. Nash has a similar TRB% to West too. Essentially, take Nash, subtract 7 assists, give him Hinrich's defense (at best), and you have Jerry West. A role player.

Official wrote:At best Jerry West is 6'3. He is an undersized shooting guard. He is not athletic. Vertical in the high 30's? I have my doubts. Either way there is a difference in on court vertical and off court vertical. Afterall, Redick''s and Hinrich's verticals were only one inch shorter than Iguodala's at the combine. Yet the difference between those two and Iguodala is astronomical. Frankly Jerry West's game in the 60s is elementary today.

So the issue is he's white. Got it.

Official wrote:Using AST%, Jerry West's passing is more along the lines of Jamal Crawford, who is incapable of running an offense.

I must have missed the season Crawford led the league in assists

The latter part of Jerry West's career is vastly different in terms of assists than the first 10 years.

Official wrote:Using AST%, Jerry West's passing is more along the lines of Jamal Crawford, who is incapable of running an offense.

Actually, West's last 4 years on the Lakers, his AST% looks like Nash pre-Phoenix. Before then, West was the best scorer in the whole league - so it kind of made sense for him to call his own number a lot.

Official wrote:The latter part of Jerry West's career is vastly different in terms of assists than the first 10 years.

why are we discounting his later career?

he was a star his entire career

Official wrote:The latter part of Jerry West's career is vastly different in terms of assists than the first 10 years.

You just connected him with a guy you said was incapable of running an offense, and we're talking about West's capabilities, making the only reasonable conclusion that you were saying West wouldn't be capable of running an offense.

Official wrote:Using AST%, Jerry West's passing is more along the lines of Jamal Crawford, who is incapable of running an offense.

How does this dictate somebody's capability to run an offense?

Sedale Threatt wrote:

Official wrote:Using AST%, Jerry West's passing is more along the lines of Jamal Crawford, who is incapable of running an offense.

How does this dictate somebody's capability to run an offense?

its not even right unless you take crawfords best ast% and west's worst not to mention how much easier they hand out assists these days which would affect the %

Official wrote:Using AST%, Jerry West's passing is more along the lines of Jamal Crawford, who is incapable of running an offense.

Oh, you mean the stat that shows that from 70-71 onward, he was assisting on 30%+ of his teams baskets on the court, even whilst scoring around 20 ppg on decent efficiency for a guy in his late 30s?

C'mon man, that's a lame example. If you were showing that against TOV%, that'd be fine, but let's not forget he posted 3.6% STL in his LAST season as an injured 35 year-old. That'd rank him with only Rondo among players who played 30+ games and 20+ minutes per game.

Comparing passing value based solely on AST% is ridiculous. West was never a gunner like Crawford, that much is BLATANTLY apparent, that's a horribly inaccurate comparison.

Jerry West's AST% is dwarfed by Nash. Or at least the Nash everybody has grown to love on the Phoenix Suns. Jerry West's AST% did rise in the latter part of his career. However West took 19 shots per 36 minutes which is equivalent to people like Allen Iverson, Baron Davis, Monta Ellis, or Gilbert Arenas. It should be noted, all four of those guys are vastly more athletic. Overall, for 72% (10 out of 14 years) of West's career, his AST% is underwhelming. The other 28% of his career you are obsessing about only consist of 4 years. We have his playoff numbers too. From the age of 22-29 he averaged an AST% under 20% in the playoffs, which is down right horrible for a guy you claim to be a skilled passer.

I have seen plenty of footage of Jerry West and there is no way in hell that guy is making an all star team in today's NBA. The fact 6'2 or 6'3 West averaged 16.5 rebounds in college (Is that a joke or something?) tells you all you need to know about the state of basketball in the 60's. Does it mean Jerry West is a poor player? No. He is one of the greatest. But he is not a transcendent player and neither are the majority of the 60's players. Why everybody has this obsession with taking players from 50 years ago and putting them in 2010 is beyond me. It is like taking the fastest runner in the 1960's and putting him up against Tyson Gay. What the hell you think is going to happen? It isn't any different in basketball.

Official wrote:Jerry West's AST% is dwarfed by Nash. Or at least the Nash everybody has grown to love on the Phoenix Suns. Jerry West's AST% did rise in the latter part of his career. However West took 19 shots per 36 minutes which is equivalent to people like Allen Iverson, Baron Davis, Monta Ellis, or Gilbert Arenas. It should be noted, all four of those guys are vastly more athletic. Overall, for 72% (10 out of 14 years) of West's career, his AST% is underwhelming. The other 28% of his career you are obsessing about only consist of 4 years. We have his playoff numbers too. From the age of 22-29 he averaged an AST% under 20% in the playoffs, which is down right horrible for a guy you claim to be a skilled passer.

Durr? Nash is expressly a volume distributor, while West was was sharing the ball with Wilt and Goodrich while still shooting a lot. That will seriously change your AST%. And before that, Baylor, too.

Skilled passing doesn't have to equate to volume passing, I don't see why you're basing your argument on that premise.

tsherkin wrote:Durr? Nash is expressly a volume distributor, while West was was sharing the ball with Wilt and Goodrich while still shooting a lot. That will seriously change your AST%. And before that, Baylor, too.

Skilled passing doesn't have to equate to volume passing, I don't see why you're basing your argument on that premise.

Yeah, the AST% argument is just weird. It's not like AST% represents successful vs attempted assist attempts. I've never heard of anyone trying to use the stat to argue that a volume scorer is just incapable of being a distributor - let alone a guy who proved himself capable of leading the league in APG when it stopped making as much sense for him to volume score. Smells like someone is just looking at b-r.com trying to find anything they can use to support their existing beliefs.