Asik Discussion. Pg 50 Sheridan: Bulls will match

[BahamaBull]

My point is that people who say "Match & then Trade" do not realize how difficult it will be to trade that contract because it is not a standard contract

Omer is not a star that other teams will take a $14 million cap hit to obtain

Ok thanks

[transplant]

You don't match and here is why. While year 1 and 2 is a good deal for a back up, year 3 is not. If Asik continues with his minutes and stats of 4 and 4, no way a team will be willing to take on 14 mil in year 3 for him. That contract is not tradeable contract.

Rashard Lewis and Joe Johnson got traded this offseason. 1 year $14 million is very tradeable.

The 3rd year of Asik falls under the Poison Pill classification because of the huge raise

PPs are very hard to trade due to financial calculations.

Lewis & JJ are not Poison Pills

Dont think a Poison pill ever has been traded

It will not be easy to trade that contract - and virtually impossible if Asik's production falls

I always thought that the "poison pill" referred to a 1st-round pick who got an extension and is traded before the new/higher salary has taken effect. I don't think it applies to Asik.

This said, you could certainly call Asik's 3rd year salary, if the Bulls match the Rockets offer, is a "poison pill" of a different sort, but it's pretty straightforward....if you want to trade for him, he's getting paid $15mil in the 3rd year...nasty, but not complicated.

[Ralphb07]

You don't match and here is why. While year 1 and 2 is a good deal for a back up, year 3 is not. If Asik continues with his minutes and stats of 4 and 4, no way a team will be willing to take on 14 mil in year 3 for him. That contract is not tradeable contract.

Rashard Lewis and Joe Johnson got traded this offseason. 1 year $14 million is very tradeable.

I know people don't want to lose him but are you all willing to have your back up C be the reason why you can land a 2nd star next to Rose down the road?

Explain this.

Joe Johnson is an all star and what exactly did Atlanta get for him? cap space which won't help up trading an expiring Asik for another expiring contract.

Washington too on Okafor who is an injury prone C making 14 mil per season. I wouldn't look at either of those deal and say hey the Bulls can flip Omer for something good. Would you trade Omer 2 years for now for a Okafor player making 14 mil? I wouldn't

In regards to Asik keeping us from getting a big time player. Even with Deng and Boozer(amnesty clause) gone in 2014. We'd have Noah, Asik , Rose, Butler, Teague and probably a re signed Gibson already putting us over the cap. Is that team above a championship team? That's what people aren't realizing. Even if we don't keep Gibson which IMO is a mistake because he is better than Asik. Look at the payroll. Rose 17mil, Asik 14mil, Noah 12 mil, Butler 2mil, Teague 2mil, the draft picks the next 2 years. We're prob at 50 mil right there. That doesn't leave us much room to add a big time player next to Rose.

A little personal experience. I have my own business doing specialty retail stuff in the malls. About two years ago Simon malls did a big deal with some companies taking all the locations. The new company came in and offered all the current tenants to stay but the price was unreal. Now these deals were broken up in different regions and I'm in two of the regions. The south regions company wasn't asking for much, so we signed on. The central regions was asking for a lot. I've been in the mall for 5 years and it did well. But what they were asking was just too much and the chance was just too high. I invested a lot in that location too. I had to let it go. 2 years later the location has switched owners twice and both previous operators that took over went under. I had to down size and lose a store but I am doing well and not taking that mall even though I invested a lot in it was the best decision I could make.

The Asik decision is very similar IMO and that's how I try to look at things. The NBA is not very different from the real world. IMO people just have a hard time letting go and it's why people find themselves in trouble with life.

[samwana]

I just want something in return for Asik. To me that is the best case scenario right now. If you match you can not trade Asik for an entire year (and never to hou).

If you match, you can trade at any time to any team but Houston - but you need Omer's agreement. It basically would give him veto over any trade.

Is Omer's veto for one year or for all three years? If he can be traded after one year without his permission....I don't understand the opposition to his signing.

From what I have understood, the team taking him in the trade is hit with 8 mil/year contract even if the Bulls trade him in 2013 Summer. I am sure more than 10 teams will take Asik in a trade for 8 mil/year for 2 years.

For ex: If the Bulls trade Asik to GS in 2013 Summer, then GS have to send a player who is around 8 mil/year contract. That's a pretty easy trade if the Bulls want to do that kind of trade to get a player like OJ Mayo level or better.

Is the bolded really the truth, I thought that if we match, the contract is the same for everyone. 5/5/15? Can someone with more CBA prowess shed his light on this?

[Merk256]

Match it, its a no brainer...get 2 more years out of him and then trade him

[Tommy Udo 6]

"I always thought that the "poison pill" referred to a 1st-round pick who got an extension and is traded before the new/higher salary has taken effect."

That is true - that was the original meaning

However, the flaw in the Arenas Rule is that no one anticipated something like Houston is doing. It is a flaw that may be closed in future. In the meantime, the huge salary spike to Asik, Fields, and probably Lin are Poison Pills.

[transplant]

This may have been mentioned already. If so, feel free to just keep moving along.

The "Arenas Provision" was, not surprisingly, built for the Gilbert Arenas situation in 2003. He was a 2nd round pick who established himself as very nearly a franchise-type player in his second season (averaged 18-5-6 with a 18.6 PER). Golden State had no way to match Washington's offer that started at $8.5mil. Going forward, the league didn't want teams to be completely helpless to keep stars they had drafted, even if they were 2nd-rounders. Essentially, the Arenas Provision gives the team that drafted the player 2 years of salary relief, but beginning in the 3rd season of the contract, they could be required to pay a max salary for the player.

Had Golden State been able to use the Arenas Provision, they probably would have done it. At the time, Arenas looked like he'd very likely be worth max salary in his 5th season.

Though the Arenas Provision went into the CBA in 2005, according to SHAM, it's never been used.

The Arenas Provision was a classic compromise. Since nearly every 2nd round pick gets no more than a 2-year contract, a 2nd-rounder who exceeds expectations was allowed to make a max salary, but not any sooner than a 1st-rounder could (i.e., year 5).

Net, it was put into the CBA to allow teams who strike gold on a 2nd-round pick who turns out to be a max-type player to not lose that player.

The Arenas Provision was not designed with Omer Asik, a back-up player, in mind.

One improvement in the Arenas Provision I would suggest is that the team making the offer for a 2nd-round RFA must offer a 4-year contract. If the Rockets used their $8mil/of cap space for 4 years, that $32 mil would have translated to the Bulls as a $5mil-$5mil-$11mil-$11mil, potentially an easier pill to swallow that the $15mil in year 3.

If the league and the union make this change, I'd like to see it renamed the "Omer Asik Provision," primarily because it would make Magilla so proud.

[Merk256]

Whats the point of having cap room in 2014? Has anyone actually looked at the 2014 FA class? Its awful, its full of ETO's that have about zero chance of happening and name players that are out of there prime.

Im not willing just to give up one of the few advantages we have over teams(2 quality bigs, that don't play like their stuck in quicksand) so we can go chase a pretty mediocre FA class in 2014.

You don't match and here is why. While year 1 and 2 is a good deal for a back up, year 3 is not. If Asik continues with his minutes and stats of 4 and 4, no way a team will be willing to take on 14 mil in year 3 for him. That contract is not tradeable contract.

Rashard Lewis and Joe Johnson got traded this offseason. 1 year $14 million is very tradeable.

I know people don't want to lose him but are you all willing to have your back up C be the reason why you can land a 2nd star next to Rose down the road?

Explain this.

Joe Johnson is an all star and what exactly did Atlanta get for him? cap space which won't help up trading an expiring Asik for another expiring contract.

Washington too on Okafor who is an injury prone C making 14 mil per season. I wouldn't look at either of those deal and say hey the Bulls can flip Omer for something good. Would you trade Omer 2 years for now for a Okafor player making 14 mil? I wouldn't

In regards to Asik keeping us from getting a big time player. Even with Deng and Boozer(amnesty clause) gone in 2014. We'd have Noah, Asik , Rose, Butler, Teague and probably a re signed Gibson already putting us over the cap. Is that team above a championship team? That's what people aren't realizing. Even if we don't keep Gibson which IMO is a mistake because he is better than Asik. Look at the payroll. Rose 17mil, Asik 14mil, Noah 12 mil, Butler 2mil, Teague 2mil, the draft picks the next 2 years. We're prob at 50 mil right there. That doesn't leave us much room to add a big time player next to Rose.

A little personal experience. I have my own business doing specialty retail stuff in the malls. About two years ago Simon malls did a big deal with some companies taking all the locations. The new company came in and offered all the current tenants to stay but the price was unreal. Now these deals were broken up in different regions and I'm in two of the regions. The south regions company wasn't asking for much, so we signed on. The central regions was asking for a lot. I've been in the mall for 5 years and it did well. But what they were asking was just too much and the chance was just too high. I invested a lot in that location too. I had to let it go. 2 years later the location has switched owners twice and both previous operators that took over went under. I had to down size and lose a store but I am doing well and not taking that mall even though I invested a lot in it was the best decision I could make.

The Asik decision is very similar IMO and that's how I try to look at things. The NBA is not very different from the real world. IMO people just have a hard time letting go and it's why people find themselves in trouble with life.

[Ralphb07]

^^^^ Flexibility for trades to land a player, etc.

[Merk256]

^^^^ Flexibility for trades to land a player, etc.

We still have that flexibility and Id argue more ammo to make trades with a quality defensive big on a big expiring contract. It gives the option to either offer a team talent and or cap room.

Its hard to get in on these trades if you don't have anything any other team wants

[Red Larrivee]

Match it, its a no brainer...get 2 more years out of him and then trade him

What's the point in getting two more years out of him? If your goal is to trade him, do it now while there's interest and negotiate a sign/trade. He's not getting any better here playing as a backup to Noah, and the Bulls aren't winning anything next season and will be tied up in salaries next year.

[bullsnewdynasty]

For those that want to let Asik go...just ask yourself how easy will it be to replace his defense, rebounding, and shot blocking off the bench. He is one of the reasons why our defense was so good. Our ability to wear down teams defensively with our size up front. If we loose Asik, our front line will not be as effective, because who is going to replace him..

Look, we all realize that Asik brings good things to the table. But can we please stop acting like we'd be replacing a star player. The Bulls defense is not being anchored by Asik. It's because of the guy orchestrating the schemes, getting players to buy in as a team, and the collective effort, hustle and chemistry of all our players.

Asik's defensive impact here is being more overstated than Kendrick Perkins defensive impact to the Celtics, and he was their starting freaking center. The Celtics were one of the best defensive teams in the league last year without Perkins and the Bulls would be too without Asik.

Asik isn't easy to replace, but he is replaceable. You don't need to prioritize a backup center to win in this league. We've been spoiled by a two-year luxury, and some people have interpreted that into it now becoming a necessity, when you have a player in front of him who is a very good defensive player, rebounder and shotblocker, as well as being a good basketball player. The Bulls are paying Noah big bucks for a reason. You don't need another guy off the bench making big money for the same thing.

If you want an expiring contract so bad, and you want to move that expiring for "something," Deng is a $14M expiring next season. He would likely bring you a better player than Asik would. Hell, lets keep Carlos Boozer too! He has a $16.8M expiring the same year Asik does. Not every expiring contract gets traded for awesome players or anything worthwhile.

We've been through this same song and dance with overvaluing defensive players here before and it's never worked out. Yes there are things Asik does that you can't put a number on in the box score, but in the NBA, you have to put a number on skillset at some point for every player. And that 3rd year is not justifiable enough for a limited talent like Asik. It's been a fun two years, but you have to go.

Bulls will never have an offense as good as OKC or Miami, so why downgrade what we are ELITE at?

[Merk256]

Match it, its a no brainer...get 2 more years out of him and then trade him

What's the point in getting two more years out of him? If your goal is to trade him, do it now while there's interest and negotiate a sign/trade. He's not getting any better here playing as a backup to Noah, and the Bulls aren't winning anything next season and will be tied up in salaries next year.

Whats the point of getting worse when we won't have any kind real cap space and a decent FA class to use it on till 2015? Which is when the contract will be up anyway

I hate to tell people this but next years offseason is going to play out much like this one unless the Bulls amnesty Boozer next year which looks like a long shot at best and it won't matter because this deal will still only be costing us 5 mil a year

Tell me what are the advantages of just letting him go? What? Room for a vey crappy 2014 FA class?

[Red Larrivee]

Bulls will never have an offense as good as OKC or Miami, so why downgrade what we are ELITE at?

You're going to downgrade it regardless if you match Asik. If you match Asik, the Bulls are going to be at 56-57M the summer that Deng is a free agent, and they'll have a ton of holes to fill that year, meaning Deng will likely be out.

Why pretend that just because the Bulls aren't the absolute #1 defensive team in the league each year, that we still aren't a great defensive team. Is it really killing you to be #2 or #3? All that matters is the Bulls are a great defensive team and will continue to be that without Asik. Stop letting a luxury spoil you.

Whats the point of getting worse when we won't have any kind real cap space and a decent FA class to use it on till 2015? Which is when the contract will be up anyway

I hate to tell people this but next years offseason is going to play out much like this one unless the Bulls amnesty Boozer next year which looks like a long shot at best and it won't matter because this deal will still only be costing us 5 mil a year

Tell me what are the advantages of just letting him go? What? Room for a vey crappy 2014 FA class?

I keep mentioning that Kevin Love can potentially demand a trade in the summer of 2014 when his team option is about to come up for the 2015-16 season, but it's swept under the rug. If the Timberwolves still suck, Love is going to demand out and re-up with the team he's dealt to.

So yes, if that situation happens, I don't want to see a $14M backup center hogging up salary. Hell, even regardless I don't want to see us paying $14M to a backup center. At the end of the day cap space and flexibility is very important under this new CBA, and cap management is even more important than before.

[WinCity]

Bulls will never have an offense as good as OKC or Miami, so why downgrade what we are ELITE at?

The point is balance. We should have learned from the 2011 ECF that we cant just out defense/out rebound everybody. We need to be able to score, or I should say someone other than Rose needs to be able to create a shot. We are in a good position to sacrifice some defense for offense. Something like Asik sign and trade for KMART would work nicely in that regard. We might not have as good an offense as MIA or OKC but simply having better balance in terms of talent will give us a better chance. 1 man shows on offense dont win titles.

[Merk256]

For those that want to let Asik go...just ask yourself how easy will it be to replace his defense, rebounding, and shot blocking off the bench. He is one of the reasons why our defense was so good. Our ability to wear down teams defensively with our size up front. If we loose Asik, our front line will not be as effective, because who is going to replace him..

Look, we all realize that Asik brings good things to the table. But can we please stop acting like we'd be replacing a star player. The Bulls defense is not being anchored by Asik. It's because of the guy orchestrating the schemes, getting players to buy in as a team, and the collective effort, hustle and chemistry of all our players.

Asik's defensive impact here is being more overstated than Kendrick Perkins defensive impact to the Celtics, and he was their starting freaking center. The Celtics were one of the best defensive teams in the league last year without Perkins and the Bulls would be too without Asik.

Asik isn't easy to replace, but he is replaceable. You don't need to prioritize a backup center to win in this league. We've been spoiled by a two-year luxury, and some people have interpreted that into it now becoming a necessity, when you have a player in front of him who is a very good defensive player, rebounder and shotblocker, as well as being a good basketball player. The Bulls are paying Noah big bucks for a reason. You don't need another guy off the bench making big money for the same thing.

If you want an expiring contract so bad, and you want to move that expiring for "something," Deng is a $14M expiring next season. He would likely bring you a better player than Asik would. Hell, lets keep Carlos Boozer too! He has a $16.8M expiring the same year Asik does. Not every expiring contract gets traded for awesome players or anything worthwhile.

We've been through this same song and dance with overvaluing defensive players here before and it's never worked out. Yes there are things Asik does that you can't put a number on in the box score, but in the NBA, you have to put a number on skillset at some point for every player. And that 3rd year is not justifiable enough for a limited talent like Asik. It's been a fun two years, but you have to go.

Bulls will never have an offense as good as OKC or Miami, so why downgrade what we are ELITE at?

I don't get it either? Whether he here or not the Bulls are going to have a hard time getting another max player here or get in on trades or the length of the deal anyway. So why not just keep him here and stay elite at that aspect of the game and at least have an asset to get in on trades rather than let him walk

[kyrv]

I think most of the offer sheets are in many ways lose-lose, and there isn't a clear should or shouldn't match. I believe it when the Bulls are mixed on this and have people both ways. That's as it should be, and as it is here, there are pros and cons both sides.

Hibbert offer sheet - ouch. Indy is kinda screwed if they let him go and kinda screwed if they keep him.

Lin and Fields - They can really use both of these players if they trade like 5 guys for Nash.

Asik - well as discussed, he currently doesn't play much, but in Thibs' system he has done quite well as a defensive anchor.

[Red Larrivee]

Can you guys stop acting like losing Asik makes the Bulls a non-elite defensive team. I can't recall a single 12-15mpg in the NBA who was the anchor of an elite-defensive team, the way people are making Asik out to be.

[bullsnewdynasty]

Joe Johnson is an all star and what exactly did Atlanta get for him? cap space which won't help up trading an expiring Asik for another expiring contract.

Washington too on Okafor who is an injury prone C making 14 mil per season. I wouldn't look at either of those deal and say hey the Bulls can flip Omer for something good. Would you trade Omer 2 years for now for a Okafor player making 14 mil? I wouldn't

Joe Johnson has 4 years 90 million dollars remaining on his contract. Nobody's going to give you anything good for that contract, no matter if he's made a few all-star teams.

Rashard Lewis is the definition of dead weight: injury prone and zero production. There are teams that see Asik as a starting center in the NBA. Kwame Brown got paid $7 million for 1 season in free agency last year. I look at supply and demand: the demand for a starting caliber center is always going to be pretty high. In the very worst case scenario, you could probably split up his contract into 2 smaller contracts for players who play different positions than center in year 3.

In regards to Asik keeping us from getting a big time player. Even with Deng and Boozer(amnesty clause) gone in 2014. We'd have Noah, Asik , Rose, Butler, Teague and probably a re signed Gibson already putting us over the cap. Is that team above a championship team? That's what people aren't realizing. Even if we don't keep Gibson which IMO is a mistake because he is better than Asik. Look at the payroll. Rose 17mil, Asik 14mil, Noah 12 mil, Butler 2mil, Teague 2mil, the draft picks the next 2 years. We're prob at 50 mil right there. That doesn't leave us much room to add a big time player next to Rose.

Bulls aren't adding big time players through free agency. The Bulls have tried 3 times in the past 12 years to add the missing piece in free agency and failed every time. And as evidenced by this year, free agency is one big free for all that you have little control over. Your two options in free agency are essentially overpay or pray. Hasn't worked out.

Your best option is to keep accumulating assets and hope that a big time star demands a trade at some point and is open to playing in Chicago. Because the only other option is the draft, and I really don't see the Bulls blowing up the team at this point.

[Red Larrivee]

Your best option is to keep accumulating assets and hope that a big time star demands a trade at some point and is open to playing in Chicago. Because the only other option is the draft, and I really don't see the Bulls blowing up the team at this point.

Your best option is creating the flexibility to take on more salary down the road when a team with a disgruntled star wants to clear cap space.

If Minnesota calls in two years and wants to shed a bad contract to go along with Kevin Love, the Bulls will be the perfect landing spot. And that can happen the summer of 2014, as well as the 2014-15 NBA season.