Chicago Bulls Medical Staff - No Progress?

[kyrv]

Hopefully I can explain my thoughts clearly. I don't typically blindly bash the Bulls and assume missing information must be anti-Bulls information.

I also don't have 1% of the information I would need to be critical or blame the trainers, doctors, coaches, management, etc., if there is blame, I wouldn't know where to start assigning it.

With those disclaimers, last year was a really wacky season. As a long time sports fan, I've never remotely seen so many day to day injuries on one team in one season. It was a running joke. I also don't recall day to day injuries lasting over a month for anyone, let alone several players. It was also noted above that the both Rose and Noah re-entered games when visibly on TV they were injured and couldn't play NBA caliber ball.

So, my comment at the end of the season is the same as now, that I hope they will look at how they treat players from injury to back in action, both medically and administratively, and see what they are doing and what needs improving. The Rose and Noah things - shouldn't happen. So let's not go on a witch hunt (as the Bulls), let's improve the process so it doesn't happen again, or severely restrict the chances of it happening.

I absolutely think last year, enough happened for people to question the process. It may have been 100% correct, I just hope the Bulls looked at this (and maybe they did, I know at least one writer (KC?) brought up this topic and I thought they said the Bulls would look at it, but maybe not.

I definitely think it's a valid topic. Some people know enough to lay blame, well, they are on the inside so I hope they will share what they can of what they know, that the rest of us don't.

[Seinfeld]

I really don't have any idea if the Bulls' doctors are good or not, I don't think any of us do.

Not because we're idiots (well some of us are), but because 99% of us follow the Bulls a hell of a lot more closely than we follow even our other favorite teams.

I can say that all the scrutiny they've received lately will make me pay attention more closely to other professional teams.

The Polamalu injury especially seems exactly like something the Bulls' doctors have been ripped for a lot here recently.

[coldfish]

I really don't have any idea if the Bulls' doctors are good or not, I don't think any of us do.

Not because we're idiots (well some of us are), but because 99% of us follow the Bulls a hell of a lot more closely than we follow even our other favorite teams.

I can say that all the scrutiny they've received lately will make me pay attention more closely to other professional teams.

The Polamalu injury especially seems exactly like something the Bulls' doctors have been ripped for a lot here recently.

As you noted multiple times, these things happen. If this issue had happened once last year, like it is happening with the Steelers, I absolutely, positively, 100% guarantee you that the medical staff would not be getting questioned.

The issue is the sheer volume of these occurrences. Look at the above. You are basically scouting every team and every sport and found two occurrences. That's what 0.01 occurrences per team-season? The Bulls had 3 or 4 just last year by themselves. THAT is what people are taking issue with.

[SlimD235]

Last year we had a condensed season where everyone and their moms were injured across the league. Let's see how everyone does thing year with rest and time to heal

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2

[MAQ]

I really don't have any idea if the Bulls' doctors are good or not, I don't think any of us do.

Not because we're idiots (well some of us are), but because 99% of us follow the Bulls a hell of a lot more closely than we follow even our other favorite teams.

I can say that all the scrutiny they've received lately will make me pay attention more closely to other professional teams.

The Polamalu injury especially seems exactly like something the Bulls' doctors have been ripped for a lot here recently.

As you noted multiple times, these things happen. If this issue had happened once last year, like it is happening with the Steelers, I absolutely, positively, 100% guarantee you that the medical staff would not be getting questioned.

The issue is the sheer volume of these occurrences. Look at the above. You are basically scouting every team and every sport and found two occurrences. That's what 0.01 occurrences per team-season? The Bulls had 3 or 4 just last year by themselves. THAT is what people are taking issue with.

I dunno. The articles posted were about superstars. Who knows what's happening with the 50th guy on the Steelers roster...Or the 18th man on the Mavs bench this training camp who has no shot at making the team.

I think it's safe to say the things we're ripping the Bulls doctors for happen a lot more often than we care to admit because we simply do not follow other teams nearly as close.

I mean, just 2 weeks ago, after missing a game because of a high ankle sprain, Matt Forte of the Bears gets the ball on the first play and ALMOST re-injures the ankle. He had to come out of the game. Had to get re-taped. He reentered the game, and while he played fine for the entire duration of the game, he clearly was limited by almost re-injuring the ankle. But they let him play anyway.

And lets not mention the Urlacher knee situation.

[RoseTheFuture22]

Didn't both CJ (I think on his feet?) and Brewer both end up having surgery this offseason? I'm not sure if its because they wanted to gut it out but still its strange that we never even heard about these injuries during the year.

[Seinfeld]

I really don't have any idea if the Bulls' doctors are good or not, I don't think any of us do.

Not because we're idiots (well some of us are), but because 99% of us follow the Bulls a hell of a lot more closely than we follow even our other favorite teams.

I can say that all the scrutiny they've received lately will make me pay attention more closely to other professional teams.

The Polamalu injury especially seems exactly like something the Bulls' doctors have been ripped for a lot here recently.

As you noted multiple times, these things happen. If this issue had happened once last year, like it is happening with the Steelers, I absolutely, positively, 100% guarantee you that the medical staff would not be getting questioned.

The issue is the sheer volume of these occurrences. Look at the above. You are basically scouting every team and every sport and found two occurrences. That's what 0.01 occurrences per team-season? The Bulls had 3 or 4 just last year by themselves. THAT is what people are taking issue with.

People are taking issue with the Bulls allegedly being the only professional team on the planet that had injury problems last year.

Your comment about "basically scouting every team and found two occurences" could not possibly be more inaccurate.

I am NOT scouting ANYTHING, just watching the headlines on Wiretap. And lo and behold, 3 occurances show up in a week.

My point is, as it has always been, you don't have to go looking for this stuff, or "scouting" for it. It happens, all the time, in every sport.

Most people just don't pay any attention to it, because they know that injuries happen. But the Bulls' front office, since the MJ days, has been held to some incredibly high standard that most teams aren't held to, and fans here need to find something to bitch about.

Again, I have a feeling that as this thread goes on, we're about to find out that this kind of thing happens ALL THE TIME. Some of us tried to point out that it does, but then we get responses like "You are basically scouting every team and every sport and found two occurrences. That's what 0.01 occurrences per team-season? "

There's no scouting, just reading the headlines and paying attention to stuff that nobody outside of Bulls fans seem to pay attention to.

I'll guarantee you that by the end of the season, this is going to be a complete non-story, because once the facts are out there, people will see that the Bulls' staff isn't "incompetent" at all, compared with other teams.

People won't be happy about it, and they'll make "scouting" excuses, because they don't want to read the Wiretap themselves because it just might prove that they were being ridiculous in their bitching about the Bulls' "incompetent" medical staff.

We'll find out soon enough, less than a year.

Yet I've already noticed you have no response to any of the situations I just posted. You completely ignored them and wrote them off as outliers. Why was Palomalu cleared to play? Why was Howard cleared to play? Why was Nowitzki cleared to play?

[Seinfeld]

Didn't both CJ (I think on his feet?) and Brewer both end up having surgery this offseason? I'm not sure if its because they wanted to gut it out but still its strange that we never even heard about these injuries during the year.

Bulls guard C.J. Watson underwent outpatient surgery Thursday for plantar fasciitis in both feet.

When Tom Thibodeau consistently defended C.J. Watson's postseason struggles by saying the guard was playing through pain, most assumed the coach referred to Watson's lingering elbow and ankle injuries.

Instead, Watson also played through plantar fasciitis in both feet that forced him to undergo an outpatient procedure Thursday morning.

"It was hard," Watson said by phone. "I couldn't do all the things that I'm usually capable of doing. But I knew with Derrick (Rose) out, I had to give the team what I could."

It's the second straight summer Watson has undergone a procedure to address the painful condition. Watson had shock wave therapy performed, which basically is controlled blasts of sound waves designed to break up the damaged tissue.

Both Joakim Noah and Taj Gibson used the procedure in 2010 and neither have had issues since.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012 ... ve-therapy

I guess it's the doctor's fault that CJ couldn't respond to the same treatment that cured Noah and Gibson 100%

Mabye that's why he's playing for the league minimum this season??

[coldfish]

Yet I've already noticed you have no response to any of the situations I just posted. You completely ignored them and wrote them off as outliers. Why was Palomalu cleared to play? Why was Howard cleared to play? Why was Nowitzki cleared to play?

Re-read my post. I said that you were right and always have been. These type of things happen. The very post you quoted had those words in it.

My issue is that when they happen about many times more often as they normally do, maybe its because of some underlying problem.

You are arguing that sometimes people die of cancer. I'm agreeing but noting that if you have one particular hospital where 1000's of people are dying of cancer every day that maybe there is some issue there. Your entire disagreement with me is a strawman.

[RoseTheFuture22]

I'm not blaming the doctors and I know a lot of times these guys want to play through it but if it was that bad then they really needed to just sit him down.

And also I think we got damaged goods with Brewer, not that he was bad in his stint here but obviously there was something not right when you go from being able to jump out of the gym in Utah to barely being able to lay it up in his 2 seasons here.

[transplant]

Loved the thread title...made me laugh.

By all accounts, Bulls' management not only doesn't have an issue with the team's medical and training staffs, they take pride in them.

Mainstream media members haven't picked up this torch.

Casual fans don't even know that the Bulls are playing games again.

There are however, some message board posters and non-mainstream journalists/bloggers who have tried to drum up interest on the basis of "where there's smoke, there's fire." This small group includes some venerable individuals, but they're pretty much invisible to Bulls' management.

So to answer the OP question...uh, no, there's been no progress.

[Seinfeld]

Yet I've already noticed you have no response to any of the situations I just posted. You completely ignored them and wrote them off as outliers. Why was Palomalu cleared to play? Why was Howard cleared to play? Why was Nowitzki cleared to play?

Re-read my post. I said that you were right and always have been. These type of things happen. The very post you quoted had those words in it.

My issue is that when they happen about many times more often as they normally do, maybe its because of some underlying problem.

You are arguing that sometimes people die of cancer. I'm agreeing but noting that if you have one particular hospital where 1000's of people are dying of cancer every day that maybe there is some issue there. Your entire disagreement with me is a strawman.

No strawman whatsoever, you are the one who keeps claiming that the Bulls' medical staff sucks, and is the cause of all of these injuries.

There's no "1000's", you keep specifically mentioning 3 or 4 examples, not 1000's.

And that it is disgusting that they cleared guys to play who soon re-injured themselves.p
"First Rip was cleared to play and immediately re-injured himself and missed a ton of time."- Same as Palomalu, but I haven't seen anyone complaining about the Steelers' staff.

"Then Rose hurt his back and was cleared to play, after hobbling around on the court for a few minutes, Thibodeau pulled him and he missed more time."- Is that the Nowitzki example, or the Howard example?

People want to whine and bitch about the Bulls' medical staff, and their "clearing of players". Lots of people claimed there are no other examples of teams clearing "unhealthy" players.

That's their right, and it's my right to show how much this crap happens in the real world. If people don't like the fact that it proves the Bulls' medical staff isn't a bunch of incompetent boobs, I can't help that. Maybe they should have done a little research, and paid attention to the other ~120 professional sports teams in the US and Canada, before they just wildly started claiming "the Bulls doctors are idiots"??????????????

Imagine getting some facts straight before you post something. What a crazy idea, eh?

[Seinfeld]

I'm not blaming the doctors and I know a lot of times these guys want to play through it but if it was that bad then they really needed to just sit him down.

You're not blaming the doctors, but if it was that bad then THEY realled need to just sit him down??????

I'm sorry, but who the hell is the THEY that needed to just sit him down?

That's right, THE DOCTORS.

Can you possibly make a more contradictory statement?

And does this only go for the Bulls doctors, or do the Steelers and Magic and Mavs doctor also get ripped on for "not sitting them down" even though "you're not blaming the doctors and these guys want to play"?????????????

I'm not usually one to use the words "contradiction" and/or "hypocrisy", but can you please explain that one to me?

[Michael Jackson]

Wait athletes get injured? Handling players is tough. Just look at Straussberg. Some things are just crazy tough and medicine is a science but not an exact one. Yeah there are def some questions with the staff last season was one that was supposed to be riddled with injuries though and it was. I don't know if we have a good/bad staff butiknow injuries are a part of sport. I know the Suns have the highest regarded staff.

[RoseTheFuture22]

Well the quotes you posted earlier make it seem like Thibs and CJ knew how bad the injury was, so more than likely surgery was on the table back then but they left it up to CJ(similar to how they are leaving it up to Deng with his wrist now) whether or not he wanted to play. Again I'm speculating, but he probably ultimately decided to gut it out but it was obvious from the way he was playing that he wasn't couldn't compete at his usual level, so the doctors or somebody else from the front office should have stepped in and taken authority.

So yes I can see how you could say its contradictory, and maybe it still is haha. But a point I'm trying to make is that on more than one occasion it seems like they've let players play through injuries that they probably should not be, and it ends up being worse than it already is.

[Michael Jackson]

Well the quotes you posted earlier make it seem like Thibs and CJ knew how bad the injury was, so more than likely surgery was on the table back then but they left it up to CJ(similar to how they are leaving it up to Deng with his wrist now) whether or not he wanted to play. Again I'm speculating, but he probably ultimately decided to gut it out but it was obvious from the way he was playing that he wasn't couldn't compete at his usual level, so the doctors or somebody else from the front office should have stepped in and taken authority.

So yes I can see how you could say its contradictory, and maybe it still is haha. But a point I'm trying to make is that on more than one occasion it seems like they've let players play through injuries that they probably should not be, and it ends up being worse than it already is.

That is the fine line with sports. I've played and trained through injuries I should have let heal. Now that I am older I regret it lol.

[Mech Engineer]

Well the quotes you posted earlier make it seem like Thibs and CJ knew how bad the injury was, so more than likely surgery was on the table back then but they left it up to CJ(similar to how they are leaving it up to Deng with his wrist now) whether or not he wanted to play. Again I'm speculating, but he probably ultimately decided to gut it out but it was obvious from the way he was playing that he wasn't couldn't compete at his usual level, so the doctors or somebody else from the front office should have stepped in and taken authority.

So yes I can see how you could say its contradictory, and maybe it still is haha. But a point I'm trying to make is that on more than one occasion it seems like they've let players play through injuries that they probably should not be, and it ends up being worse than it already is.

That is the fine line with sports. I've played and trained through injuries I should have let heal. Now that I am older I regret it lol.

That's why the criticism of the doctors. They are supposed to know this and look what is best for the organization which means usually the best for the player in many cases. Gar has mentioned for example in Rose's case that they will all get together and make a decision. The problem in these cases if the conclusion is different from each person(the doctor, player, coach, FO)...who is running the show because each person have their own agenda. If the case is as simple as everyone agreeing, then those are usually non-issues.

[DaeDae]

Noah, and ESPECIALLY the subsequent decision to clear him to return after that horrible ankle vs the sixers was inexcusable. Even if you allow him back in BASED on his word, anyone with eyes could see that he was not okay and that the risk of making it worse was high after only one trip down the court. And yet not only did they clear him to return, they allowed him to stay in long enough to do just that......make it much worse.....

[Seinfeld]

Noah, and ESPECIALLY the subsequent decision to clear him to return after that horrible ankle vs the sixers was inexcusable. Even if you allow him back in BASED on his word, anyone with eyes could see that he was not okay and that the risk of making it worse was high after only one trip down the court. And yet not only did they clear him to return, they allowed him to stay in long enough to do just that......make it much worse.....

Let me guess, you never played sports, right?

[coldfish]

No strawman whatsoever,

OK, then, let's go over the number of times that you misrepresent my comments. Just so you are clear on what I am saying, this is the definition of a strawman:

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

Number 1:

you are the one who keeps claiming that the Bulls' medical staff sucks, and is the cause of all of these injuries.

I didn't say that they caused all the injuries. They didn't cause Noah to step on someone's foot. They didn't pull Rip's hamstring, break Deng's leg,. etc. I said they handled a fairly large number of injuries wrong in comparison to other teams.

Number 2:

There's no "1000's", you keep specifically mentioning 3 or 4 examples, not 1000's.

I never said there were 1000's of injuries. I used a short analogy to cancer deaths to explain my position. Either you don't understand what an analogy is or you intentionally just misrepresented what I said.

Number 3:

And that it is disgusting that they cleared guys to play who soon re-injured themselves.p
"First Rip was cleared to play and immediately re-injured himself and missed a ton of time."- Same as Palomalu, but I haven't seen anyone complaining about the Steelers' staff.

"Then Rose hurt his back and was cleared to play, after hobbling around on the court for a few minutes, Thibodeau pulled him and he missed more time."- Is that the Nowitzki example, or the Howard example?

People want to whine and bitch about the Bulls' medical staff, and their "clearing of players". Lots of people claimed there are no other examples of teams clearing "unhealthy" players.

You replied to me, then quoted me twice, then you went on to use the word "people" and said something I have never said, which is that I said "there are no other examples of teams clearing "unhealthy" players". Either you are misrepresenting my argument or you just don't know what you are arguing against at this point.

So, just in one post, you had three misrepresentations of what I have said.

And to reply to this:

That's their right, and it's my right to show how much this crap happens in the real world. If people don't like the fact that it proves the Bulls' medical staff isn't a bunch of incompetent boobs, I can't help that. Maybe they should have done a little research, and paid attention to the other ~120 professional sports teams in the US and Canada, before they just wildly started claiming "the Bulls doctors are idiots"??????????????

Imagine getting some facts straight before you post something. What a crazy idea, eh?

Again going back and forth with the "people" and "you". I'm not sure who you are talking to. I'm not sure you know who you are talking to. Is it me or the board in general?

Beyond that, you pointed two 2 cases in 120 teams. That's a ratio of 60:1. The entire point of this discussion is that the Bulls, by themselves, had 3 or 4 issues of this in 1 year. Using YOUR examples that means that Chicago was up to 240 times as many issues as the average team. That's my point. When someone or something is that much of an outlier to a normal process, it makes you ask "why"? If you can come up with multiple examples of teams having 3 to 4 problems like this a year, then you have refuted my point and will have proven that the Bulls just had a relatively normal season.

You haven't yet though but you have done a fantastic job supporting my position (when actually represented accurately).

I thank you for your support.