Start Taj / Boozer 6th Man?

[jl342323]

It's like no one remembers how bad this team was with Taj as the starter. Even when Boozer isn't knocking down his shots, he adds a dimension to our offense that keeps teams honest. With Taj as a fulltime starter most defenses can just leave him and live with him bricking wide open jumpers. I'm not saying Boozer is prime Dirk, and we'd be lottery bound, but until we find a suitable replacement (hopefully Mirotic) he's the best we have.

its going to be interesting when taj starts. at this point, all he can do offensively is up and down post move, spin move, and offensive rebound. when teams make adjustments to take those away, what can he do? teams will force him to take jumpers all game long. at one point last year his eFG% on his jumper was below 30%.

taj never had to make changes to his game, b/c no one was focused on stopping him. when defenses know your tendencies and make adjustments accordingly, it will be even tougher for him to succeed.

if boozer wasnt a factor offensively, there would be open lanes for boozer to drive on pnrs. lol. boozer had two guys guarding him in brooklyn series. pf would front him and brook lopez was in the paint protecting the rim. nets tried to force the bulls to play on the perimeter.

[Dukedog]

Somehow noah is being praised when in reality he had his career worst FG%, career worst TS%, and cemented his place as being a net negative for the team FOR THREE STRAIGHT YEARS. yea noah was net negative from 09 to 12. I think that's enough of a sample size.

we can say same thing about loul deng.

instead of turning this into a bashing thread, contribute something on why taj should or should not start. this is getting old.

He also posted career highs in assists, minutes, FT%, offensive and total rebounds, blocks, steals, and points... In going to check up on where he improved I didn't even realize just how many stats he improved across the board- Without our franchise player giving him easy looks and taking the pressure shots and possessions.

More importantly, the eye test tells me that Noah is a net positive by a wide margin, to hell with any stat that says otherwise. Have we seriously forgotten Noah's performance against BKN, especially in Game 7??!! I forget whose sig it is, but he posted the only 20pt 12reb 6blk game in the last 10 years! In Game 7! After guaranteeing a Bulls win going into NJ! Talk about showing up in the clutch! Yes, he struggled against Miami, but who didn't?

We are a defensive team with one offensive superstar who missed the entire year. No one gave the Bulls a second thought going into the season, and Noah's performance is probably the number 1 reason that we exceeded expectations. Noah is not overpaid, and he is not a net negative. He is our second best player and a franchise cornerstone. Anyone who says otherwise does not watch him play.

/Rant

[Chitownbulls]

Yeah exactly....obviously this probably wont happen but its good forum talk.

Personally, I think the Bulls would be alright. Rose is back, Jimmy Butler is wayyy better, Deng is a all star and Noahs offensive game has improved a ton. Plus Im guessing the Bulls will be looking for more scorers/shooters in free agency. This move is all about Taj Gibson. Were paying him 8mil a year to be a bench player. No one wants Boozer....if they did, he would have been gone by now. Plus its not like Boozer has a future with us. Like many have said, theres a great chance Boozers gets the boot next season. We need to see what Taj Gibson is all about. He dominated a couple times this year when Boozer was out and hes still fairly a young guy. Plus what is Taj Gibson when Mirotic comes over? Bench player? Starter? I think putting Taj Gibson in the starting lineup would produce 8-12ppg 7-9 reb 2-3blks a game. I could see Boozer being a 10-13ppg 6-7reb type of guy off the bench.

Bulls get a bench scorer and a great chance to see what Taj Gibson is all about. Is he going to stick with us or not? If he does well, Taj Gibsons trade value just went up bigtime. Boozer will continue to be a guy nobody wants.

[Red Larrivee]

The Bulls best lineups are usually defensive driven lineups since they they aren't capable of putting out effective offensive-driven lineups due to their personel and style. +/- is never guaranteed to translate in more minutes. There's also way too many factors in it, that go beyond a single player.

Boozer and Taj are both equally flawed at opposite ends of the court. In light of this, they work better as a tandem than playing one or the other 36mpg+. It's the same situation with Hinrich and Nate Robinson last season. Many people kept saying that the Bulls are 10-18 when Hinrich doesn't play and like 28-15 or something when he does. They attributed that to Hinrich just being this savior, when it's not the case. It's simply tandem-related.

Hinrich/Nate >>>> Nate/Teague or Hinrich/Teague

The same can be said for

Boozer/Taj >>> Boozer/Vet min backup or Taj/vet min backup

Taking either Taj or Boozer completely out the equation makes the team noticeably worse, unelss you get a player who is similarly-productive. This isn't like the Bulls getting rid of Ben Wallace in 2007-08 when we had a younger, significantly better version of him playing behind him.

Taj is better suited to come off the bench because he's an athletic, energy-based player. If the starting lineup isn't doing what it should, Thibs injects Taj and hopes that he'll give them some life. That's the dynamic. So I prefer Boozer in the starting lineup.

[jl342323]

He also posted career highs in assists, minutes, FT%, offensive and total rebounds, blocks, steals, and points... In going to check up on where he improved I didn't even realize just how many stats he improved across the board- Without our franchise player giving him easy looks and taking the pressure shots and possessions.

More importantly, the eye test tells me that Noah is a net positive by a wide margin, to hell with any stat that says otherwise. Have we seriously forgotten Noah's performance against BKN, especially in Game 7??!! I forget whose sig it is, but he posted the only 20pt 12reb 6blk game in the last 10 years! In Game 7! After guaranteeing a Bulls win going into NJ! Talk about showing up in the clutch! Yes, he struggled against Miami, but who didn't?

We are a defensive team with one offensive superstar who missed the entire year. No one gave the Bulls a second thought going into the season, and Noah's performance is probably the number 1 reason that we exceeded expectations. Noah is not overpaid, and he is not a net negative. He is our second best player and a franchise cornerstone. Anyone who says otherwise does not watch him play.

/Rant

um i was being sarcastic with the noah part.

noah was the best defender on this team, and he improved as a leader. that is all we can ask for from him.

[Jvaughn]

which made taj a more impact-ful player than boozer even if he had a down yr.
you only think boozer serves a need. you would think that a player who's in there for his offense would have more of a positive impact on offense, but he doesnt even do that.
the bulls were just as effective of a team offensively whether he was in the game or not. actually this yr they were better offensively with him off the floor. and they need boozer for his offense???

It's like no one remembers how bad this team was with Taj as the starter. Even when Boozer isn't knocking down his shots, he adds a dimension to our offense that keeps teams honest. With Taj as a fulltime starter most defenses can just leave him and live with him bricking wide open jumpers. I'm not saying Boozer is prime Dirk, and we'd be lottery bound, but until we find a suitable replacement (hopefully Mirotic) he's the best we have.

and taj would still end up having a greater impact on the team than boozer.
nobody respects boozer. his best offensive weapon is something that opposing teams would love to give up.
he's an offensive player who doesn't even have a good impact on offense.

Taj's impact is on one side of the ball. Just about everywhere else he's below average to mediocre. His defensive impact isn't that great that we can ignore the rest.

And what does it matter if they respect Boozer. Disrespected he still gives us 18/11 per 36 while he was playing outside of his role. Keep disrespecting him. With a healthy team, I like my odds.

[Jvaughn]

The Bulls best lineups are usually defensive driven lineups since they they aren't capable of putting out effective offensive-driven lineups due to their personel and style. +/- is never guaranteed to translate in more minutes. There's also way too many factors in it, that go beyond a single player.

Boozer and Taj are both equally flawed at opposite ends of the court. In light of this, they work better as a tandem than playing one or the other 36mpg+. It's the same situation with Hinrich and Nate Robinson last season. Many people kept saying that the Bulls are 10-18 when Hinrich doesn't play and like 28-15 or something when he does. They attributed that to Hinrich just being this savior, when it's not the case. It's simply tandem-related.

Hinrich/Nate >>>> Nate/Teague or Hinrich/Teague

The same can be said for

Boozer/Taj >>> Boozer/Vet min backup or Taj/vet min backup

Taking either Taj or Boozer completely out the equation makes the team noticeably worse, unelss you get a player who is similarly-productive. This isn't like the Bulls getting rid of Ben Wallace in 2007-08 when we had a younger, significantly better version of him playing behind him.

Taj is better suited to come off the bench because he's an athletic, energy-based player. If the starting lineup isn't doing what it should, Thibs injects Taj and hopes that he'll give them some life. That's the dynamic. So I prefer Boozer in the starting lineup.

And this post I can agree with 100%.

[Chitownbulls]

Starters-
Rose
Butler
Deng
Taj
Noah

Unreal defensive team. Rose will get his 20ppg, Butler should be around 10-13ppg this year, Deng does his thing, same with Noah. Anything Taj gives us is a bonus imo. Rose should be able to find him at least 4-6 easy ppg by just creating and being Rose. And I think he could average about 8-12ppg 7-9reb 2-3blks..which is really solid!

Hinrich
Cheap FA Wes Johnson or Mike Dunleavy?, Draft or Belinelli?
MMLE- Wright or Webster?
Boozer
Jermaine Oneal?, Draft, Narz?

Obviously theres holes, but we can fill them through draft or free agency. I think we are a pretty balanced team. Hinrich an Boozer seem to work well. Boozer would get the offense ran through him and be surrounded by shooters. When Booz plays with Rose, it seems like he tries to find his shots rather than doing his own thing. And Boozer is much better when hes in rhythm doing his own thing imo.

[Dukedog]

He also posted career highs in assists, minutes, FT%, offensive and total rebounds, blocks, steals, and points... In going to check up on where he improved I didn't even realize just how many stats he improved across the board- Without our franchise player giving him easy looks and taking the pressure shots and possessions.

More importantly, the eye test tells me that Noah is a net positive by a wide margin, to hell with any stat that says otherwise. Have we seriously forgotten Noah's performance against BKN, especially in Game 7??!! I forget whose sig it is, but he posted the only 20pt 12reb 6blk game in the last 10 years! In Game 7! After guaranteeing a Bulls win going into NJ! Talk about showing up in the clutch! Yes, he struggled against Miami, but who didn't?

We are a defensive team with one offensive superstar who missed the entire year. No one gave the Bulls a second thought going into the season, and Noah's performance is probably the number 1 reason that we exceeded expectations. Noah is not overpaid, and he is not a net negative. He is our second best player and a franchise cornerstone. Anyone who says otherwise does not watch him play.

/Rant

um i was being sarcastic with the noah part.

noah was the best defender on this team, and he improved as a leader. that is all we can ask for from him.

Isn't that what green font is for? I gotcha, but to be fair, your post followed a couple of posts that called Noah overpaid, and my post was really as much directed at those posts as yours.

[Jimako10]

Somehow noah is being praised when in reality he had his career worst FG%, career worst TS%, and cemented his place as being a net negative for the team FOR THREE STRAIGHT YEARS. yea noah was net negative from 09 to 12. I think that's enough of a sample size.

That's true, Noah has had his worst FG% and TS%, luckily he's supposed to be our 4th/5th option on offense, not our 1/2. Noah's offense is not why he got elected to an all-star game this year, the same year he was a net positive BTW. One player is trending upward, the other steeply downward.

we can say same thing about loul deng.

No you can't actually, while Deng was a net negative this past year, he's been a net positive (by a lot) since 2009. I have no problem arguing about a possible Deng decline because that is a reasonable concern, but it seems to me that you are in denial about Boozer's decline.

instead of turning this into a bashing thread, contribute something on why taj should or should not start. this is getting old.

I think Taj should start because Boozer can't even post up Shane effin Battier. That is my contribution.

[mortimer duke]

Starters-
Rose
Butler
Deng
Taj
Noah

Unreal defensive team. Rose will get his 20ppg, Butler should be around 10-13ppg this year, Deng does his thing, same with Noah. Anything Taj gives us is a bonus imo. Rose should be able to find him at least 4-6 easy ppg by just creating and being Rose. And I think he could average about 8-12ppg 7-9reb 2-3blks..which is really solid!

Hinrich
Cheap FA, Draft or Belinelli?
MMLE- Wright or Webster?
Boozer
FA, Draft, Narz?

Obviously theres holes, but we can fill them through draft or free agency. I think we are a pretty balanced team. Hinrich an Boozer seem to work well. Boozer would get the offense ran through him and be surrounded by shooters. When Booz plays with Rose, it seems like he tries to find his shots rather than doing his own thing. And Boozer is much better when hes in rhythm doing his own thing imo.

Terrible offensive playoff team late in the playoffs. Lebron guards Rose.. where does the secondary offense come from?

It's the same problem the Bulls have always had under John Paxson. Every possession down the floor if a team is focusing in on Rose, the Bulls are trying to figure out who their best offensive threat is...

[jl342323]

I think Taj should start because Boozer can't even post up Shane effin Battier. That is my contribution.

i dont expect much.

[Chitownbulls]

^ isn't that the truth!

Gosh Boozer should have been killing Battier!!!!! WTF

[jl342323]

discussing boozer here sucks. everyone becomes an a-hole and hostile. lol. it pretty much same as discussing vinny del negro.

[Chitownbulls]

Starters-
Rose
Butler
Deng
Taj
Noah

Unreal defensive team. Rose will get his 20ppg, Butler should be around 10-13ppg this year, Deng does his thing, same with Noah. Anything Taj gives us is a bonus imo. Rose should be able to find him at least 4-6 easy ppg by just creating and being Rose. And I think he could average about 8-12ppg 7-9reb 2-3blks..which is really solid!

Hinrich
Cheap FA, Draft or Belinelli?
MMLE- Wright or Webster?
Boozer
FA, Draft, Narz?

Obviously theres holes, but we can fill them through draft or free agency. I think we are a pretty balanced team. Hinrich an Boozer seem to work well. Boozer would get the offense ran through him and be surrounded by shooters. When Booz plays with Rose, it seems like he tries to find his shots rather than doing his own thing. And Boozer is much better when hes in rhythm doing his own thing imo.

Terrible offensive playoff team late in the playoffs. Lebron guards Rose.. where does the secondary offense come from?

It's the same problem the Bulls have always had under John Paxson. Every possession down the floor if a team is focusing in on Rose, the Bulls are trying to figure out who their best offensive threat is...

I don't mind playing the matchups. If the team were playing against better suites starting Boozer, then do it.

[ManualRam]

It's like no one remembers how bad this team was with Taj as the starter. Even when Boozer isn't knocking down his shots, he adds a dimension to our offense that keeps teams honest. With Taj as a fulltime starter most defenses can just leave him and live with him bricking wide open jumpers. I'm not saying Boozer is prime Dirk, and we'd be lottery bound, but until we find a suitable replacement (hopefully Mirotic) he's the best we have.

and taj would still end up having a greater impact on the team than boozer.
nobody respects boozer. his best offensive weapon is something that opposing teams would love to give up.
he's an offensive player who doesn't even have a good impact on offense.

Taj's impact is on one side of the ball. Just about everywhere else he's below average to mediocre. His defensive impact isn't that great that we can ignore the rest.

And what does it matter if they respect Boozer. Disrespected he still gives us 18/11 per 36 while he was playing outside of his role. Keep disrespecting him. With a healthy team, I like my odds.

actually taj's defensive impact is elite. he's #1 in the league in dRAPM. #1.


boozer can get his 18/11 per 36 and he still doesn't have a positive impact on offense. opposing defenses will just continue to give him his little 15 ft jumper and he'll continue to score inefficiently, being a net negative player.

[mortimer duke]

Starters-
Rose
Butler
Deng
Taj
Noah

Unreal defensive team. Rose will get his 20ppg, Butler should be around 10-13ppg this year, Deng does his thing, same with Noah. Anything Taj gives us is a bonus imo. Rose should be able to find him at least 4-6 easy ppg by just creating and being Rose. And I think he could average about 8-12ppg 7-9reb 2-3blks..which is really solid!

Hinrich
Cheap FA, Draft or Belinelli?
MMLE- Wright or Webster?
Boozer
FA, Draft, Narz?

Obviously theres holes, but we can fill them through draft or free agency. I think we are a pretty balanced team. Hinrich an Boozer seem to work well. Boozer would get the offense ran through him and be surrounded by shooters. When Booz plays with Rose, it seems like he tries to find his shots rather than doing his own thing. And Boozer is much better when hes in rhythm doing his own thing imo.

Terrible offensive playoff team late in the playoffs. Lebron guards Rose.. where does the secondary offense come from?

It's the same problem the Bulls have always had under John Paxson. Every possession down the floor if a team is focusing in on Rose, the Bulls are trying to figure out who their best offensive threat is...

I don't mind playing the matchups. If the team were playing against better suites starting Boozer, then do it.

It's not good either way. Boozer's offense doesn't work late in the playoffs. Want his FG%s in series against Pau Gasol and the Miami Heat?

2008 WCSF v. Lakers - 40.2%
2009 WCR1 v. Lakers - 52.8% (good, until you consider that Gasol and Odom both shot over 58.0%
2011 ECF v. Heat - 40.7%
2013 ECSF v. Heat - 42.0%

Those are the four series he's played in that have mattered and he's shot FG%s that would make Allen Iverson mad at himself.

I don't know why people EVER associate him with offense. People who think he's good at offense are probably the same kind of people who thought the 92 Cavs "really had a chance!" against the Bulls...

[Chitownbulls]

I think the Bulls should try it out...see what happens. It could work and if it doesn't, go back to the way we were.

Rose, Hinrich, Teague
Butler, Dunleavy?
Deng, Dorell Wright or Webster?
Taj, Booz
Noah, Jermaine Oneal, Nazr

Looks like a solid team and I didn't even put our draft pick in there. 2nd unit looks much improved.

[Keller61]

In Taj's five starts this season he averaged 16/12 on 60% shooting, along with 3.2 blocks. I think his offensive game might be a little underrated, as he has good footwork and a nice touch on short range shots. His transition game is much better than Boozer's, and we know about his defense.

I think the team would be better overall with him starting, however it would put a lot of burden on Rose to do more offensively.

I've also noticed that Taj tends to play better WITH Boozer than he does with Noah. I think Taj might be a little better as a center than as a PF. He had a few monster games filling in for Noah, and him and Boozer seemed to compliment each other well.

[Jvaughn]

Taj's impact is on one side of the ball. Just about everywhere else he's below average to mediocre. His defensive impact isn't that great that we can ignore the rest.

And what does it matter if they respect Boozer. Disrespected he still gives us 18/11 per 36 while he was playing outside of his role. Keep disrespecting him. With a healthy team, I like my odds.

actually taj's defensive impact is elite. he's #1 in the league in dRAPM. #1.


boozer can get his 18/11 per 36 and he still doesn't have a positive impact on offense. opposing defenses will just continue to give him his little 15 ft jumper and he'll continue to score inefficiently, being a net negative player.

And you don't think the fact that Taj is Boozer's primary backup has anything to so with his DRAPM numbers? Taj is a good defender, but not as great as that DRAPM number would have you believe.

And I'd rather have Boozer's inefficient 18/11 than Taj's inefficient fictional 13/9. He's a better player man.