RealGM Top 100 List #42

[penbeast0]

Spoiler:

Wanna talk about Elvin Hayes a little.......

Extended Prime Elvin Hayes ('69-'80)--long prime: 12 years, 978 rs games
Estimated Per 100 (rs): 24.5 pts, 14.7 reb, 2.1 ast, 1.3 stl, 2.7 blk with 3.2 tov @ 49.1% TS% (-1.8% to league)
PER 18.5, .127 WS/48 in huge 41.7 mpg. 102 ORtg/100 DRtg (+2)---data for '78-'80.
Better in playoffs.....
Estimated Per 100 (playoffs): 25.1 pts, 14.2 reb, 2.1 ast, 1.3 stl, 2.9 blk with 3.2 tov @ 50.4% TS%
PER 19.3, .140 WS/48 in 43.4 mpg. 103 ORtg/98 DRtg (+5)---data for only '78-'80.

His shot-selection and shooting efficiency obviously leave a fair bit to be desired, but he nonetheless appears to have produced a net positive result for the team offense on the teams he joined (more on that below). I do suspect that his ability to exert positive effect on offenses might be limited to bad offenses (the offenses he was joining were almost exclusively below average ones). But anyway....

He was a very good rebounder, and solid low-post defender who was also a fair rim-protector (and seems to consistently have exerted a positive effect on team defenses).
And then he's got near iron-man longevity. An extended prime that lasts like 12 years (during which he missed only 6 games); and only 9 missed games in 16 seasons . He was at worst a solid role-player in 15 of 16 seasons.


Some stuff on apparent impact......

In '68, the San Diego Rockets were 15-67 (dead last by a full 8 games to the next worst team) and -7.94 SRS (dead-last). They were the 12th-rated (of 12) team offensively and 10th of 12 defensively.

In '69 they lose Dave Gambee, John Barnhill, Jon McGlocklin, and an aging Johnny Green. Only noteworthy new acquisitions are rookies Rick Adelman and Elvin Hayes (same coach and everything).......they improve by 22 games (to 37-45) and 7.64 SRS pts (to -0.30, 7th of 14). Their ORtg improves by 2.2 relative to the league (now 12th of 14, as apposed to dead-last). DRtg improves by 4.7 relative to league (now 3rd of 14).
Admittedly, they never would quite get over mediocrity during Hayes's four seasons there; but that's a heck of jump from the extreme basement of the league (which I think they can mostly thank Hayes for).


In '72, the Baltimore Bullets---who had Wes Unseld, Archie Clark, Phil Chenier, and Jack Marin (all basically healthy and in their primes), along with at least a couple decent role players in Dave Stallworth and Mike Riordan----went 38-44, -1.26 SRS (10th of 17). They were 10th of 17 offensively, 9th of 17 defensively.

In '73, they still have all of the above characters (basically all healthy except Archie Clark who misses 43 games), same coach, too; only real noteworthy new acquisitions are rookie Kevin Porter (would only play 17.1 mpg his rookie season), and Elvin Hayes........they improve by 14 games to 52-30 and by 4.1 SRS pts to +2.84 (7th of 17). In ORtg, although their league rank fell from 10th to 12th of 17, they actually did improve by 0.9 relative to the league average. In DRtg, they improved by 3.2 relative to league (finishing 5th of 17).

Two years later they would be in the NBA finals. Three years after that they would win the title. Hayes would lead the league in playoff WS during that title run: 20.3 PER and .169 WS/48 in playoffs that year (20.7 ppg/11.9 rpg/1.6 spg/2.0 bpg @ .509 TS% in the finals).

Accolades/Ranks:
12-Time All-Star
3-Time All-NBA 1st Team
3-Time All-NBA 2nd Team
2-Time All-Def 2nd Team
#38 all-time in career rs WS (#58 all-time in career playoff WS)
#49 all-time in MVP Award Shares (twice finished 3rd in MVP voting)


Thoughts? I'm really thinking of casting in with him any time now

.

Actually, in 1972 they also lost Marin since he was traded for Hayes; Riordan who had been a part time player up to that point stepped up big-time having a career year and playing almost 3500 minutes; actually better than Marin except for the weak rebounding. Porter stepped up when Clark went down and was a better distributor though not the shooter than Clark was. And Hayes was a massive improvement over Stan Love and aging John Tresvant who had 2500 minutes at PF with Stallworth playing the rest.

[trex_8063]

Should Dolph Schayes be getting some traction soon?

Spoiler:

He had a long career (for the time period) and consistently was among the top players in the league, with 6 All-NBA 1st team selections and a further 6 All-NBA 2nd team selections and 6 top 10-MVP finishes, 3 times in the top 5.

His field goal shooting was generally around league average, but his free throw shooting was amazing for a power forward, with a career mark of .849, including three league-leading seasons, topping out at .904 twice... as a power forward/center! He drew lots of free throws too with a career free throw rate of .512. Add it up, and he was quite an efficient scorer:

Code: Select all

Year    TS     Rel    Z
1950  .4799  +.0699  1.46
1951  .4681  +.0404  0.78
1952  .4684  +.0300  0.58
1953  .4952  +.0500  1.18
1954  .4981  +.0558  1.37
1955  .4896  +.0343  0.79
1956  .4973  +.0394  0.97
1957  .5015  +.0521  1.42
1958  .5076  +.0584  1.37
1959  .4879  +.0304  0.87
1960  .4960  +.0326  0.85
1961  .4816  +.0122  0.43
1962  .4611  -.0176 -0.33
1963  .4710  -.0216 -0.42
1964  .3986  -.0862 -1.99
Total .4877  +.0350  0.86


That efficiency came on decent volume, too, with 11 seasons among the top 10 in scoring. Add on a further 11 seasons in the top 10 in rebounds (including 9 in the top 5) and a reputation for solid defense, and he was clearly a premier player for a very long time.

Adding to the picture is that he increased his scoring (+1.2 per36), efficiency (+.015) rebounding (+0.4 per36) in the postseason, and he emerges as an elite player of the early NBA. His teams sported a .569 winning percentage overall in an era where variance in wins was lower than it is today.

For what they are worth, his advanced metrics look outstanding at this stage, with a truncated career WS/48 of 0.192 (missing his first two seasons due to minutes not being recorded, which were seemingly better than 1952, where he posted a WS/48 of 0.203), a truncated career PER of 22.0, and playoff averages of .189 WS/48 and 23.3 PER. Those lead to career rankings of 26th on WS/48 (including 29th on total WS) and 30th on PER. He's got a sizable metric edge on Bob Cousy and a notable longevity edge on Paul Arizin.

I'm not sure if I'll vote for him yet (leaning to Dwight or Zo here), but he's definitely on my radar.

Absolutely I agree he should be in the convo at this point. I've name-dropped him a couple times (at least once itt), and had this to say about him way back in the #38 thread:

One other guy I’m sort of interested in at least bringing up at this time (difficult to compare, due to era) is Dolph Schayes.
Dolph Schayes (‘50’61)---another pretty long prime
Per 100: VERY rough estimates--->~23-26 pts, 15-17 reb, ~4 ast @ 49.1% TS% (+4.4 to league avg)
PER 22.9, .206 WS/48 in ~36+ mpg.
**Playoff numbers same to even marginally BETTER.
Career rs WS: 142.4
Career playoff WS: 14.0
Strength of era considerations obviously apply, but he’s a player who is much more “relevant” than the others by measures like MVP Awards Shares, where he ranks #44 all-time (and MVP was not something that was even awarded during his first SIX seasons). He was in the top 5 in MVP voting three times, six times in the top 8. In ‘58 he finished 2nd only to Bill Russell (even ahead of Bob Pettit!).
In the RealGM RPoY project, he was rated the 3rd-best player in both ‘57 and ‘58 (behind only Russell and Pettit), was rated THE BEST player in the game in ‘55. Is at least top 6 two other seasons. Overall he’s #24 in RealGM RPoY Shares.

These have been the main guys I’m considering at this spot, Pierce and Schayes perhaps at the top. But it doesn’t seem Schayes will get any serious consideration just yet, and I might not get a chance to vote tomorrow.

My consideration has recently been swinging back toward Hayes a bit recently, but Schayes is right there in consideration, too. I haven't decided yet, but will most likely cast my vote for one of the two.

[Clyde Frazier]

Should Dolph Schayes be getting some traction soon? He had a long career (for the time period) and consistently was among the top players in the league, with 6 All-NBA 1st team selections and a further 6 All-NBA 2nd team selections and 6 top 10-MVP finishes, 3 times in the top 5.

His field goal shooting was generally around league average, but his free throw shooting was amazing for a power forward, with a career mark of .849, including three league-leading seasons, topping out at .904 twice... as a power forward/center! He drew lots of free throws too with a career free throw rate of .512. Add it up, and he was quite an efficient scorer:

Code: Select all

Year    TS     Rel    Z
1950  .4799  +.0699  1.46
1951  .4681  +.0404  0.78
1952  .4684  +.0300  0.58
1953  .4952  +.0500  1.18
1954  .4981  +.0558  1.37
1955  .4896  +.0343  0.79
1956  .4973  +.0394  0.97
1957  .5015  +.0521  1.42
1958  .5076  +.0584  1.37
1959  .4879  +.0304  0.87
1960  .4960  +.0326  0.85
1961  .4816  +.0122  0.43
1962  .4611  -.0176 -0.33
1963  .4710  -.0216 -0.42
1964  .3986  -.0862 -1.99
Total .4877  +.0350  0.86


That efficiency came on decent volume, too, with 11 seasons among the top 10 in scoring. Add on a further 11 seasons in the top 10 in rebounds (including 9 in the top 5) and a reputation for solid defense, and he was clearly a premier player for a very long time.

Adding to the picture is that he increased his scoring (+1.2 per36), efficiency (+.015) rebounding (+0.4 per36) in the postseason, and he emerges as an elite player of the early NBA. His teams sported a .569 winning percentage overall in an era where variance in wins was lower than it is today.

For what they are worth, his advanced metrics look outstanding at this stage, with a truncated career WS/48 of 0.192 (missing his first two seasons due to minutes not being recorded, which were seemingly better than 1952, where he posted a WS/48 of 0.203), a truncated career PER of 22.0, and playoff averages of .189 WS/48 and 23.3 PER. Those lead to career rankings of 26th on WS/48 (including 29th on total WS) and 30th on PER. He's got a sizable metric edge on Bob Cousy and a notable longevity edge on Paul Arizin.

I'm not sure if I'll vote for him yet (leaning to Dwight or Zo here), but he's definitely on my radar.

Great writeup. I've been meaning to post something about schayes after taking a quick look at some of the older guys left on the board here:

viewtopic.php?p=41290208#p41290208

I came away most impressed with him as he has great consistency and longevity relative to his era. Running short on time, and still not positive who i'm voting for here, though.

I'm not totally sold on howard or mourning here, both for longevity reasons, and in howard's case his career trajectory. I hold 2011 dwight in very high regard, and he hasn't been at that level since, even with a decent bounce back season this year.

[trex_8063]

Dwight Howard (2) - penbeast0, Quotatious

Alonzo Mourning (2) - ronnymac2, E-Balla

Allen Iverson (1) - Basketballefan

Thru post #43.
Moderate amount of discussion, but very few actual votes.

[DQuinn1575]

Sam Jones Win Share Rank RS/PO on 6 championship teams:


61 2/5
62 2/2
63 2/2
64 2/1
65 2/2
66 2/2

Six years as second best player on championship teams - plus contributor on 4 other championship teams.

Multiple 2nd team all-league, by far best offensive player on teams that won six titles.
By far biggest impact on championships as any player left


Vote for Sam Jones

[trex_8063]

Sam Jones Win Share Rank RS/PO on 6 championship teams:


61 2/5
62 2/2
63 2/2
64 2/1
65 2/2
66 2/2

Six years as second best player on championship teams - plus contributor on 4 other championship teams.

Multiple 2nd team all-league, by far best offensive player on teams that won six titles.
By far biggest impact on championships as any player left


Vote for Sam Jones

fwiw, '63, '65, and '66, are the only years we can fairly certainly say he was the 2nd-best player on the team. '62, '64, and '68 are highly debatable "maybe's" as to whether he was the 2nd-best player.

Saying he was the best offensive player by far on six of those title teams is blatantly false.

[drza]

Vote Alonzo Mourning

I'm in an airport so this will be brief. Zo had an elite peak with dominant defense mixed with solid offense. His prime was cut short by his kidney disease, but as that's something my family has had to deal with I respect him for fighting through it enough to become a very effective role player in his later years. I feel like Howard should be better than Zo, but so far he hasn't quite surpassed him yet.

[DQuinn1575]

Used 61 not 68 as 6th year, not contending he was 2nd best in 68.


Offensive win shares Sam jones versus 2nd best offensive was


61 3.9 vs 2.7
62 4.9 vs 3.9
63 5.0 vs 2.5
64 3.7 vs 1.6
65 7.3 vs 2.4
66 6.1 vs 3.1

Average 5.2 vs 2.7 / led by at least 1.0 every single year.


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[DQuinn1575]

Used 61 not 68 as 6th year, not contending he was 2nd best in 68.


Offensive win shares Sam jones versus 2nd best offensive was


61 3.9 vs 2.7
62 4.9 vs 3.9
63 5.0 vs 2.5
64 3.7 vs 1.6
65 7.3 vs 2.4
66 6.1 vs 3.1

Average 5.2 vs 2.7 / led by at least 1.0 every single year.

I don't think that is blatantly false

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Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[dautjazz]

I can't vote, but feels to me that Elvin Hayes has been overlooked.

21ppg 12.5rpg 1.8apg 1spg 2bpg FG: .452 FT: .670 (first 5yrs blocks and steals weren't counted)
Only missed 9 games in 16 years!!
1978 championship
12 All-Star games
3 All-NBA First Teams
3 All-NBA Second Teams
2 All-Defense Second Teams
1 NBA Scoring title
2 NBA Rebounding titles
4 NBA Minutes titles (does that exist lol)
3x led league in Defemsive Win Shares

[trex_8063]

Used 61 not 68 as 6th year, not contending he was 2nd best in 68.


Offensive win shares Sam jones versus 2nd best offensive was


61 3.9 vs 2.7
62 4.9 vs 3.9
63 5.0 vs 2.5
64 3.7 vs 1.6
65 7.3 vs 2.4
66 6.1 vs 3.1

Average 5.2 vs 2.7 / led by at least 1.0 every single year.


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When listing the years (where I included '68), I was responding to the "2nd-best player on title team" statement. I don't really think '61 is even in good contention for such a statement. Hard to peg a guy playing only 26 mpg with the 3rd-best PER on the team as the 2nd-best player (even if WS do suggest it). Put another way, difficult to assert that a guy avg 15.0/5.4/2.8 is better/more valuable than a guy averaging 21.3/9.9/1.9 and another guy averaging 18.1/4.4/7.7 for the same team.

I was treating "best offensive player by far", as a completely independent statement. You can argue Jones was the best offensive player on six of those title teams (you could also argue against it). Using hyperbole like "by far", though......

Further, are we just taking OWS at face value? Would you then agree that Horace Grant was the 4th best/most valuable offensive player in the league in '92, ahead of not only teammate Scottie Pippen, but also ahead of Charles Barkley, John Stockton, Clyde Drexler, to name a few.....??

[trex_8063]

Have been waffling a lot for this pick. My top two candidates are Hayes and Schayes; next two behind them probably Cousy and Iverson.

Not to be overtly "political", but have been waiting to see if there existed much support for any of these (preferably one of Hayes or Schayes), to kind of see where my vote could have the most potential value. Seems to be a bit of latent support for Dolph Schayes, so I'm going to go ahead and make it official, see if it takes.

Supporting arguments below (from prior posts). Official Vote: Dolph Schayes.

Spoiler:

Should Dolph Schayes be getting some traction soon? [spoiler]He had a long career (for the time period) and consistently was among the top players in the league, with 6 All-NBA 1st team selections and a further 6 All-NBA 2nd team selections and 6 top 10-MVP finishes, 3 times in the top 5.

His field goal shooting was generally around league average, but his free throw shooting was amazing for a power forward, with a career mark of .849, including three league-leading seasons, topping out at .904 twice... as a power forward/center! He drew lots of free throws too with a career free throw rate of .512. Add it up, and he was quite an efficient scorer:

Code: Select all

Year    TS     Rel    Z
1950  .4799  +.0699  1.46
1951  .4681  +.0404  0.78
1952  .4684  +.0300  0.58
1953  .4952  +.0500  1.18
1954  .4981  +.0558  1.37
1955  .4896  +.0343  0.79
1956  .4973  +.0394  0.97
1957  .5015  +.0521  1.42
1958  .5076  +.0584  1.37
1959  .4879  +.0304  0.87
1960  .4960  +.0326  0.85
1961  .4816  +.0122  0.43
1962  .4611  -.0176 -0.33
1963  .4710  -.0216 -0.42
1964  .3986  -.0862 -1.99
Total .4877  +.0350  0.86


That efficiency came on decent volume, too, with 11 seasons among the top 10 in scoring. Add on a further 11 seasons in the top 10 in rebounds (including 9 in the top 5) and a reputation for solid defense, and he was clearly a premier player for a very long time.

Adding to the picture is that he increased his scoring (+1.2 per36), efficiency (+.015) rebounding (+0.4 per36) in the postseason, and he emerges as an elite player of the early NBA. His teams sported a .569 winning percentage overall in an era where variance in wins was lower than it is today.

For what they are worth, his advanced metrics look outstanding at this stage, with a truncated career WS/48 of 0.192 (missing his first two seasons due to minutes not being recorded, which were seemingly better than 1952, where he posted a WS/48 of 0.203), a truncated career PER of 22.0, and playoff averages of .189 WS/48 and 23.3 PER. Those lead to career rankings of 26th on WS/48 (including 29th on total WS) and 30th on PER. He's got a sizable metric edge on Bob Cousy and a notable longevity edge on Paul Arizin.

I'm not sure if I'll vote for him yet (leaning to Dwight or Zo here), but he's definitely on my radar.

Absolutely I agree he should be in the convo at this point. I've name-dropped him a couple times (at least once itt), and had this to say about him way back in the #38 thread:

One other guy I’m sort of interested in at least bringing up at this time (difficult to compare, due to era) is Dolph Schayes.
Dolph Schayes (‘50’61)---another pretty long prime
Per 100: VERY rough estimates--->~23-26 pts, 15-17 reb, ~4 ast @ 49.1% TS% (+4.4 to league avg)
PER 22.9, .206 WS/48 in ~36+ mpg.
**Playoff numbers same to even marginally BETTER.
Career rs WS: 142.4
Career playoff WS: 14.0
Strength of era considerations obviously apply, but he’s a player who is much more “relevant” than the others by measures like MVP Awards Shares, where he ranks #44 all-time (and MVP was not something that was even awarded during his first SIX seasons). He was in the top 5 in MVP voting three times, six times in the top 8. In ‘58 he finished 2nd only to Bill Russell (even ahead of Bob Pettit!).
In the RealGM RPoY project, he was rated the 3rd-best player in both ‘57 and ‘58 (behind only Russell and Pettit), was rated THE BEST player in the game in ‘55. Is at least top 6 two other seasons. Overall he’s #24 in RealGM RPoY Shares.

These have been the main guys I’m considering at this spot, Pierce and Schayes perhaps at the top. But it doesn’t seem Schayes will get any serious consideration just yet, and I might not get a chance to vote tomorrow.

[Owly]

Sam Jones Win Share Rank RS/PO on 6 championship teams:


61 2/5
62 2/2
63 2/2
64 2/1
65 2/2
66 2/2

Six years as second best player on championship teams - plus contributor on 4 other championship teams.

Multiple 2nd team all-league, by far best offensive player on teams that won six titles.
By far biggest impact on championships as any player left


Vote for Sam Jones

fwiw, '63, '65, and '66, are the only years we can fairly certainly say he was the 2nd-best player on the team. '62, '64, and '68 are highly debatable "maybe's" as to whether he was the 2nd-best player.

Saying he was the best offensive player [u]by far on six of those title teams is blatantly false[/u].

Not to say I agree or disagree but that's not the only way to read that sentence. It seems to read at least at much that he was by a significant distance the best offensive player over that span. In any case it might be more helpful to clarify why you disagree.

Wanna talk about Elvin Hayes a little.......

Extended Prime Elvin Hayes ('69-'80)--long prime: 12 years, 978 rs games
Estimated Per 100 (rs): 24.5 pts, 14.7 reb, 2.1 ast, 1.3 stl, 2.7 blk with 3.2 tov @ 49.1% TS% (-1.8% to league)
PER 18.5, .127 WS/48 in huge 41.7 mpg. 102 ORtg/100 DRtg (+2)---data for '78-'80.
Better in playoffs.....
Estimated Per 100 (playoffs): 25.1 pts, 14.2 reb, 2.1 ast, 1.3 stl, 2.9 blk with 3.2 tov @ 50.4% TS%
PER 19.3, .140 WS/48 in 43.4 mpg. 103 ORtg/98 DRtg (+5)---data for only '78-'80.

His shot-selection and shooting efficiency obviously leave a fair bit to be desired, but he nonetheless appears to have produced a net positive result for the team offense on the teams he joined (more on that below). I do suspect that his ability to exert positive effect on offenses might be limited to bad offenses (the offenses he was joining were almost exclusively below average ones). But anyway....

He was a very good rebounder, and solid low-post defender who was also a fair rim-protector (and seems to consistently have exerted a positive effect on team defenses).
And then he's got near iron-man longevity. An extended prime that lasts like 12 years (during which he missed only 6 games); and only 9 missed games in 16 seasons . He was at worst a solid role-player in 15 of 16 seasons.


Some stuff on apparent impact......

In '68, the San Diego Rockets were 15-67 (dead last by a full 8 games to the next worst team) and -7.94 SRS (dead-last). They were the 12th-rated (of 12) team offensively and 10th of 12 defensively.

In '69 they lose Dave Gambee, John Barnhill, Jon McGlocklin, and an aging Johnny Green. Only noteworthy new acquisitions are rookies Rick Adelman and Elvin Hayes (same coach and everything).......they improve by 22 games (to 37-45) and 7.64 SRS pts (to -0.30, 7th of 14). Their ORtg improves by 2.2 relative to the league (now 12th of 14, as apposed to dead-last). DRtg improves by 4.7 relative to league (now 3rd of 14).
Admittedly, they never would quite get over mediocrity during Hayes's four seasons there; but that's a heck of jump from the extreme basement of the league (which I think they can mostly thank Hayes for).


In '72, the Baltimore Bullets---who had Wes Unseld, Archie Clark, Phil Chenier, and Jack Marin (all basically healthy and in their primes), along with at least a couple decent role players in Dave Stallworth and Mike Riordan----went 38-44, -1.26 SRS (10th of 17). They were 10th of 17 offensively, 9th of 17 defensively.

In '73, they lost Jack Marin, but otherwise still have all of the above characters (basically all healthy except Archie Clark who misses 43 games), same coach, too; only real noteworthy new acquisitions are rookie Kevin Porter (would only play 17.1 mpg his rookie season), and Elvin Hayes........they improve by 14 games to 52-30 and by 4.1 SRS pts to +2.84 (7th of 17). In ORtg, although their league rank fell from 10th to 12th of 17, they actually did improve by 0.9 relative to the league average. In DRtg, they improved by 3.2 relative to league (finishing 5th of 17).

Two years later they would be in the NBA finals. Three years after that they would win the title. Hayes would lead the league in playoff WS during that title run: 20.3 PER and .169 WS/48 in playoffs that year (20.7 ppg/11.9 rpg/1.6 spg/2.0 bpg @ .509 TS% in the finals).

Accolades/Ranks:
12-Time All-Star
3-Time All-NBA 1st Team
3-Time All-NBA 2nd Team
2-Time All-Def 2nd Team
#38 all-time in career rs WS (#58 all-time in career playoff WS)
#49 all-time in MVP Award Shares (twice finished 3rd in MVP voting)


Thoughts? I'm really thinking of casting in with him any time now.

Thoughts? Please, please please don't vote Hayes. We've gone too high on high scoring "stars" on champs that are some combination of lucky (or playoff overachieving if you think of it that way), defensive minded and ensemble casts (Isiah and Barry; not that each of those descriptions applies equally to each team).

Despite a love of scoring PER never rates him significantly above my arbitrary all-starish impact season baseline (17.9, Hayes never hit 20). WS/48 likes his peak a little better but generally sees him as only a little above average.

I don't tend to put a lot of weight on "choker" stuff because I don't believe people "eye-test" measure that well. But his negative chemistry stuff I do buy. And Hayes has it.

The impact stuff has holes, or at least needs more contextual info. e.g. Rockets had been an expansion franchise with zero continuity the first year. The second year they have that. Then too you don't note that expansion devalues some of that SRS leap (the league standard inevitably hurt by dilution, so any given SRS would be worse in absolute terms than a team achieving that the prior year). Also one might at this point raise the issue that the ability to volume score at below average efficiency might help pull an awful team towards the middle, but it might also do the same to a good team. It's surely of limited value in showing how he can contribute to titles. Also Penbeast's stuff such as that about the level of the players he was replacing in Washington (ditto in San Diego) warrants consideration.

Versus Schayes, a genuine franchise carrier the argument for Hayes is practically non-existant. To me, the only way you could justify it is dismissing Schayes' era.

With Isiah Thomas voted in at #39 (now being three spots beyond that), Bob Cousy is a guy I feel should be gaining traction, as there are (imo) quite a few parallels and similarities between them. As consequence, I’ve always had the two ranked fairly close together (never more than 5 spots apart on my personal ATL).

Similarities:
*Similar career length and arc.
**Both are relatively high-scoring/high volume-shooting PG’s who have been criticized for somewhat poor shooting efficiency. Although relative to league standard, Cousy wasn’t quite as inefficient as Thomas: Thomas had just one year on the “+” side of league average (‘86, by +1.35%); Cousy was actually above league average for six consecutive seasons from ‘52-’57 (by as much as +2.5%, and by an average of +1.0%).
Thomas career relative TS%: -2.1%
Cousy career relative TS%: -1.0%
***Both led a #1 offense in their respective careers (Cousy actually led THREE #1 offenses, from ‘53-’55).
****However, both were offensive stars who achieved their greatest team success on squad’s who won with their defense. They were each perceived as the driving force behind the offense on these squads.
*****Both are multi-time champions (Cousy obv more so).
******Both were perennial All-Stars, often All-NBA team, too. Cousy wins out in accolades, although obviously era considerations apply.
*******Both had a dazzling style of play (and handles) that made them very popular with the fan-base of the time.

Here is the overall snap-shot of Cousy’s career:
Extended Prime Cousy (‘52-’61)--697 rs games
Estimated Per 100 Possessions (rs): 21.9 pts, 6.1 reb, 8.8 ast @ 44.9% TS% (-0.4% to league)
PER 20.1, .139 WS/48 in 37.4 mpg
Estimated Per 100 Possessions (playoffs): 20.3 pts, 5.5 reb, 8.8 ast @ 43.5% TS%
PER 18.0, .121 WS/48 in 40.7 mpg
Career rs WS: 91.1
Career playoff WS: 9.1

6-Time NBA Champion (at least 3 as the 2nd-best/most important player, never less than the 4th-best player)
13-Time All-Star
10-Time All-NBA 1st Team
2-Time All-NBA 2nd Team
1-Time league MVP (‘57, ahead of Bob Pettit)
#36 All-Time in MVP Award Shares
*Seven times he factored into the MVP voting (despite the MVP not even being awarded his first handful of seasons), never lower than 8th (four times in the top 4)
#33 All-Time in RealGM RPoY shares

The guy was still a presence to be reckoned with late in his career. At age 34---in a league that was becoming integrated and had quite a few athletic stars (Russell, Wilt, West, Oscar, Baylor, Pettit, as well as Bellamy, Wilkens, etc)---he'd still averaged 13.2/2.5/6.8 for the best team in the land; and in his final game as a Celtic (game 6 of the finals), despite sprained ankle late in game, came up with 18 pts while helping to hold Frank Selvy and Dick Barnett to a combined 15 pts.

Not saying Cousy is my vote for this spot (though I’m considering him), but it certainly seems he ought to be in the discussion by this time, especially given our rank of Isiah Thomas. For that matter, I feel Allen Iverson belongs in the near vicinity of these two guys, as well.

Otherwise, I’m strongly considering Elvin Hayes for this spot. Can also see arguments for Dolph Schayes, Dwight Howard, Dave Cowens, or Robert Parish. Will try to write more on them later.

Wow, I get

tbh, I feel like you're being petulant here

for using an anchoring argument, and you then lead with it in pro Cousy argument, except your guys are substantially more dissimilar. Cousy was, as you note more efficient than Thomas (amongst notable primarily 50s pgs iirc only McGuire shot better cf: http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... 01&y6=1960 http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... 01&y3=1960). And most of the similarities are superficial (style), accolade/award based (everyone here has them) or merely descripitive of circumstances. There's little to show their careers are similar. So as you've shown efficiency wise they weren't that similar. Then there's playoff performance. They aren't that similar (not wholly dissimilar I don't see that a list needs them super close to be internally consistent).

So whilst you can say that personally you don't view them apart. If I'm not supposed to pick a guy based on them being better than a (percieved) bad choice I don't see why you would then use that reasoning.

Or is it just poor form to use bad or misplaced reasoning (anchoring to guys already in, rather than the field) to make a point but fine to use it to promote a player?

Sorry if this comes off aggressive, but was pretty tetchy after taking shots for making an argument but getting no real engagement and then seeing the exact same line of reasoning.


I'm looking at Schayes, Parish, Howard.

[trex_8063]

Dwight Howard (2) - penbeast0, Quotatious

Alonzo Mourning (3) - ronnymac2, E-Balla, drza

Allen Iverson (1) - Basketballefan

Sam Jones (1) - DQuinn1575

Dolph Schayes (1) - trex_8063

Thru post #52.

[Clyde Frazier]

Vote for #42 - Dolph Schayes

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ydo01.html

- 15 year career
- 12x all NBA (6 1st, 6 2nd)
- 3 top 5 and 3 top 10 MVP finishes
- 1x NBA champion
- Retired having played the most seasons, games and minutes in league history*

*This includes NBL play, which I know technically doesn't count for this project. Let's just leave it as a fun fact. He was an ironman regardless.

What stands out most was his ability to get to the line and hit at an elite %: his career FT rate is .512, with a career high .654 in 50-51 (league avg was .399 that yr). His career FT% was 84.9% on 7.9 attempts per game. The league avg typically hovered around 70-73% throughout his career.

From the footage i've seen (currently looking for more), he had a consistent outside shot and good first step, with solid body control once he got into the lane. He also had a floater, which I find funny for some reason, but it was still effective. The nationals were also one of the best defensive teams in the league during his prime (yes, only 8-10 teams, but routinely ranked in the top 1-3 in DRTG).

Again, his marked consistency and longevity relative to his era really impressed me. In 54-55, he led the Nationals to the NBA title in 7 games over the #1 SRS ranked Pistons. One can point to inferior competition, but I think a player who was considered one of the best in the game for as long as he was deserves a spot in the top 50.

Will add more depending on how this plays out, but wanted to get my vote in.

[trex_8063]

Also one might at this point raise the issue that the ability to volume score at below average efficiency might help pull an awful team towards the middle, but it might also do the same to a good team.

Uh, I'm not sure if you meant to say that it "might NOT" do the same to a good team. If so, I agree (generally so, anyway), and said as much in my post. If that isn't a typo, and you are indeed saying volume scoring on below average efficiency may HELP an already good team.....I could see it being the case in a very limited number of circumstances, but would otherwise ask you to elaborate.
At any rate, that contention seems somewhat out of place within your post, as it would seem to put Hayes's skill-set in higher general regard; whereas the post is otherwise highly critical of him.

Wow, I get

tbh, I feel like you're being petulant here

for using an anchoring argument, and you then lead with it in pro Cousy argument.....(snip)

Sorry if this comes off aggressive, but was pretty tetchy after taking shots for making an argument but getting no real engagement and then seeing the exact same line of reasoning....(snip)

Yeah, it comes off as aggressive. I'm sorry I bruised your ego a bit previously. tbh, I almost prefaced my Bob Cousy post with a disclaimer that it was not meant to be like Owly's Gus Williams post (which---imo, although I'm pretty certain I wasn't alone in this perception---came across as kinda "sour grapes"......which I think is part of why no one really engaged you on the topic). The only reason I didn't make such a disclaimer was out of consideration for you (but I was worried it would be perceived as such).

I'll grant you there are some parallels to be pointed out between Williams and Thomas (though I still disagree that it's any "more similar" than it is to Cousy, other than eras being similar/same).

But ultimately it's the set-up to your comparison of Williams/Thomas wherein lies the primary difference between my Cousy post and your Williams post:
You'd made it painstakingly clear that you felt Thomas had no business whatsoever in the top 40. Almost derisively critical posts about Thomas comprised about 80-90% of the content you were providing throughout the #38 and #39 threads........And then you used a comparison to Thomas (in which you more or less called it a wash) as your support case for Gus Williams.

Added to that: Gus Williams, looked at through a "conventional" lens, or with "status quo thinking" as it were, is not someone who is even going to come up in conversation near the top 50. A statistical analysis certainly indicates that history as under-appreciated him, but still not to the degree of top 50 status.

Now given all of that, can you truly not see how your Williams post came across as sour grapes? You spent five days emphatically arguing that Thomas doesn't belong, and then for the very next spot said, "Here's someone who's basically the same, we should vote him in now." How are we supposed to take that seriously?

Similarities to Thomas (which we can agree to disagree on) aside, THIS (the above) is the big difference between our respective comparisons. I was not the one going on at length about how I felt Thomas had no place. You may note that although I didn't vote for him in the #39 run-off, I didn't vote against him either; I intentionally abstained out of indecision (i.e. to me he was appropriate enough of a candidate for the spot).

And whereas I suspect (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) that you don't actually have Gus Williams in the vicinity of #40 on your own ATL, and that that post was primarily in the same vein as previous arguments about how Thomas doesn't belong (i.e. showing someone you KNOW no one will support this early as basically equal)......I actually DO have Cousy (and Thomas) in the vicinity of #40 on my ATL, and truly think Cousy valid for discussion at this time.

[penbeast0]

I'm headed out in about 15 minutes, back in 4-5 hours. Right now we have 3 votes for Zo, 2 each for Dwight and Dolph. See if we can get a tiebreaker to start a runoff before we leave, otherwise I'll check in later.

[Moonbeam]

I'll go ahead and vote for Dolph Schayes. His long career of consistent excellence further lifting his game in the postseason is well worth this spot.

[penbeast0]

Okay, runoff between Zo and Schayes.

[DQuinn1575]

When listing the years (where I included '68), I was responding to the "2nd-best player on title team" statement. I don't really think '61 is even in good contention for such a statement. Hard to peg a guy playing only 26 mpg with the 3rd-best PER on the team as the 2nd-best player (even if WS do suggest it). Put another way, difficult to assert that a guy avg 15.0/5.4/2.8 is better/more valuable than a guy averaging 21.3/9.9/1.9 and another guy averaging 18.1/4.4/7.7 for the same team. .....??

Those other guys only played 30.5 and 32.5 mpg compared to 26.0 mpg, and had TS% of 43.6% and 45.0% versus
Sam's 49.3% - but I'll give you maybe he wasn't 2nd best player, but still a major contributor.

I was treating "best offensive player by far", as a completely independent statement. You can argue Jones was the best offensive player on six of those title teams (you could also argue against it). Using hyperbole like "by far", though......

How about best for first 3 years, by far the last 3?

Further, are we just taking OWS at face value? Would you then agree that Horace Grant was the 4th best/most valuable offensive player in the league in '92, ahead of not only teammate Scottie Pippen, but also ahead of Charles Barkley, John Stockton, Clyde Drexler, to name a few.....??

No, just using it has a shortcut.. For 1963-1966 he had best TS% and best scoring average on team. 61 and 62 he led in TS% but not in scoring.


So how about 2nd best player on 5 championship teams,
major contributor on 3 more,
best offensive player on 5 championship teams, 3 by a fair margin.

Still one of the best resumes for championships for any player, and definitely better than anyone else left.