Is Demarcus Cousins a top 10 Player?

[2klegend]

Until he proved he is coachable and be a good leader for his teammate and make the playoff, it is hard to put him in the top 10.

He's already proved to be coachable by Mike Malone. They got along well, and the team was winning. Then cousins ends up in the hospital, Kings start losing, and Vivek used that as a scapegoat to fire Malone because he wanted to hire Karl. It was absurd.


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They played below .500 basketball even before Cousins injury in 2014. If your definition of winning is .500, then that is a bit low expectation. These were the results of monthly record from the Kings in 2014 season.

Oct. 1-0
Nov. 3-10
Dec. 6-10
Jan. 5-11
Feb. 5-7
Mar. 6-10
Apr. 2-6

[2klegend]

How long have he been in the league now? This is his 7th season and look to be another out of playoff again. It is no coincident that he hasn't sniff the playoff.

Given the consistency of Sacramento's boobery, I'm not sure how you could come to this conclusion, to be honest. I think that if you took some time to familiarize yourself with the actual results and particulars of the team, you might think a little differently.

Blame everything on the coach and organization dysfunction for team result is an easy escape for a weak mentally unstable player. Cousins had a history of immaturity and that immaturity is contagious in spreading an already bad team culture. As the best player and leader of the team, it is his responsibility to elevate the plays of his teammate despite how flaw they were. Like I said, the Kings are not lacking much talent to be a playoff team compare with some of the other low seat teams in WC. If old Dirk can do for the Mavs or Harden for the Rockets, I don't see why Cousins can't. As a matter of fact, I don't see much different in Cousins' team vs Gasol's Grizzlies team.

[2klegend]

Rudy Gay this year + 5.3 on court + 25.3 on/off

Let's not get carried away by small sample sizes.

Cousins is a very good player and clearly he's been the best player on the Kings nearly his entire career. Doesn't mean he's a top ten player based on some on/off numbers. Of course the Kings are going to be terrible when he's off the court.

He's a Top 10 player based on virtually ALL of the numbers, except the should-be-making-Anthony-Tolliver-a-stud stat. And this is sustained greatness too. Not DeMar having a 3 week bender before inevitably returning to being himself. This is a perennial All NBA player and Team USA guy turning in his best work yet. He was better than Harden last night. He was better than Westbrook the night before that. He was better than DeRozan the game before that. He was better than Paul the game before that.

P.S. BTW, Cousins is annually a high impact guy, last year he was was 14th in RPM. The year before that he was 9th. Now he's got a coach using him correctly, and he's cleaned it up a little bit further still.

Nobody questions his stat padding prowess. Like Kevin Love in 2014 he's not Top 10.

I wonder what is the next excuse for Cousins if his team miss the playoff again?

[Colbinii]

Rudy Gay this year + 5.3 on court + 25.3 on/off

Let's not get carried away by small sample sizes.

Cousins is a very good player and clearly he's been the best player on the Kings nearly his entire career. Doesn't mean he's a top ten player based on some on/off numbers. Of course the Kings are going to be terrible when he's off the court.

He's a Top 10 player based on virtually ALL of the numbers, except the should-be-making-Anthony-Tolliver-a-stud stat. And this is sustained greatness too. Not DeMar having a 3 week bender before inevitably returning to being himself. This is a perennial All NBA player and Team USA guy turning in his best work yet. He was better than Harden last night. He was better than Westbrook the night before that. He was better than DeRozan the game before that. He was better than Paul the game before that.

P.S. BTW, Cousins is annually a high impact guy, last year he was was 14th in RPM. The year before that he was 9th. Now he's got a coach using him correctly, and he's cleaned it up a little bit further still.

Nobody questions his stat padding prowess. Like Kevin Love in 2014 he's not Top 10.

I wonder what is the next excuse for Cousins if his team miss the playoff again?

Kevin Love was CLEARLY top 10 in 2014. In fact, we just did a POTY re-vote this summer and he ranked top 5 I believe. He had superstar IMPACT in 2014, not just stats.

[Clyde Frazier]

Until he proved he is coachable and be a good leader for his teammate and make the playoff, it is hard to put him in the top 10.

He's already proved to be coachable by Mike Malone. They got along well, and the team was winning. Then cousins ends up in the hospital, Kings start losing, and Vivek used that as a scapegoat to fire Malone because he wanted to hire Karl. It was absurd.


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They played below .500 basketball even before Cousins injury in 2014. If your definition of winning is .500, then that is a bit low expectation. These were the results of monthly record from the Kings in 2014 season.

Oct. 1-0
Nov. 3-10
Dec. 6-10
Jan. 5-11
Feb. 5-7
Mar. 6-10
Apr. 2-6

That's because you're looking at the wrong season... kings started the 14-15 season at 9-6 before cousins was hospitalized due to a viral infection. Malone was then fired on Dec 15th before cousins even returned to play.

[HeartBreakKid]

SMH.

Draymond Green, the 10pt 9reb 6ast roleplayer with the 19PER is much better than DeMarcus Cousins, the 28-10-3 franchise guy. That's not how that works.

As for the other names thrown out, Butler is the only interesting one. Paul George annually gets overrated and never ends up even on the same planet as the true superstars. Think he's a 20 PER guy right now. Which is nice for Rudy Gay, not so much for a Top 10 guy. Lillard and DeRozan are just gunners who play one side of the ball and got off to hot starts. They are not, never have been, nor ever will be in Cousins' class of player.

Butler is somewhat more interesting just because he has at times flashed big star stuff in the past. Still, this is a 27 year old guy with a career 18.3 PER who's never been above 21.3 PER in his life, suddenly rocking a 29.3 PER. Again, that's not how that generally works, and a falloff to his natural level almost has to be in the works.

In fact of all the guys running around putting in career high PERs and whatnot, Cousins is one of the most sustainable. He's been absolutely elite for years. Last year fighting George Karl was his worst PER year since emerging, and it was still a 23.6 I think. Before that he was at 26.1 and 25.3. A little bump to a 27.8 is much more sustainable for a 26 year old just entering his prime than these sudden 6-8 PER pt forward jumps some guys have been rocking.

All you did was just list Green and Cousin's boxscore stats...then said "thats not how that works". First off 6 APG to 3 APG is a gigantic difference. Second, Draymond Green is lightyears ahead of Cousins defensively, and everyone else in the league except for Kawhi Leonard. You're purposely making a disingenuous argument, because you know that Green's boxscore number doesn't capture his defensive impact. Green put up better numbers then what you listed last year over a much greater sample size. Cousins puts up huge boxscore numbers on all time dreadful efficiency last year, do you really want to go the route of propping up his PPG when he was one of the least effective scorers on a per possession basis? That's not to mention Cousins had dreadful efficiency. Draymond Green is a roleplayer - okay? So is Paul Pierce, Scottie Pippen and Kevin McHale and all those guys are better than DeMarcus Cousins...DeMarcus Cousins isn't an MVP caliber player, which would pretty much make him a "roleplayer" also.

As for the "Paul George is overrated because he's not a superstar" - Demarcus Cousins isn't a superstar either, and most people do not consider Paul George to be a superstar, so I don't get where that is coming from. What the hell is a true superstar? Lebron James? Kevin Durant? Demarcus Cousins is up there with them?? Paul George is much more trialed and proven than DeMarcus Cousins is, and he can easily end up having a better season than Cousins, as he did last year.

Also, all of what you said doesn't debunk my general point. There are nine guys who are not only better than DeMarcus Cousins this year, but have been better than him for the past several years. That leaves Cousins in a league with several other players who are "not true superstars" like DeMarcus Cousins is, so how on earth is he easily a top ten player? That's beyond me.




Serious question, I've been meaning to ask you this for years. Is DeMarcus Cousins your nephew?

[Winsome Gerbil]

Until he proved he is coachable and be a good leader for his teammate and make the playoff, it is hard to put him in the top 10.

He's already proved to be coachable by Mike Malone. They got along well, and the team was winning. Then cousins ends up in the hospital, Kings start losing, and Vivek used that as a scapegoat to fire Malone because he wanted to hire Karl. It was absurd.


Sent from my iPad using RealGM mobile app

They played below .500 basketball even before Cousins injury in 2014. If your definition of winning is .500, then that is a bit low expectation. These were the results of monthly record from the Kings in 2014 season.

Oct. 1-0
Nov. 3-10
Dec. 6-10
Jan. 5-11
Feb. 5-7
Mar. 6-10
Apr. 2-6

As Clyde mentioned, you're quoting the wrong year. The year you have there was Malone's first, also Ranadive's first after he bought the team mid-summer. New coach, new GM, new owner, and complete chaos. 23 players suited up. 17 different starters. Cousins was the only one to start more than 60 games.

The year Clyde is talking about is the next year when it looked like they finally had it figured out. The team started off the season 9-5 or 9-6 or something like that, then Cousins suddenly comes down with a deadly illness and it turns into a bad comedy again. If they lose Cousins eventually, that will be the moment of idiocy you point to.

We're at about the same point this season, so imagine if you will that James Harden comes down with meningitis tomorrow for the 10-6 Rockets. And Morey uses that as an excuse to can D'Antoni, and replace him with an assistant who coaches a completely different style because his owner likes walk it up basketball no matter his personnel. And then 2 months later to fire that guy too and hire Byron Scott to finish off the season. Kings seasons are like a box of chocolate. Each unpredictably idiotic in their own way.

[2klegend]

He's already proved to be coachable by Mike Malone. They got along well, and the team was winning. Then cousins ends up in the hospital, Kings start losing, and Vivek used that as a scapegoat to fire Malone because he wanted to hire Karl. It was absurd.


Sent from my iPad using RealGM mobile app

They played below .500 basketball even before Cousins injury in 2014. If your definition of winning is .500, then that is a bit low expectation. These were the results of monthly record from the Kings in 2014 season.

Oct. 1-0
Nov. 3-10
Dec. 6-10
Jan. 5-11
Feb. 5-7
Mar. 6-10
Apr. 2-6

As Clyde mentioned, you're quoting the wrong year. The year you have there was Malone's first, also Ranadive's first after he bought the team mid-summer. New coach, new GM, new owner, and complete chaos. 23 players suited up. 17 different starters. Cousins was the only one to start more than 60 games.

The year Clyde is talking about is the next year when it looked like they finally had it figured out. The team started off the season 9-5 or 9-6 or something like that, then Cousins suddenly comes down with a deadly illness and it turns into a bad comedy again. If they lose Cousins eventually, that will be the moment of idiocy you point to.

We're at about the same point this season, so imagine if you will that James Harden comes down with meningitis tomorrow for the 10-6 Rockets. And Morey uses that as an excuse to can D'Antoni, and replace him with an assistant who coaches a completely different style because his owner likes walk it up basketball no matter his personnel. And then 2 months later to fire that guy too and hire Byron Scott to finish off the season. Kings seasons are like a box of chocolate. Each unpredictably idiotic in their own way.

2014 is a full year under Mike Malone. If you're talking about Mike Malone in 2015, then that is a small sample size to say what is the direction of the Kings. Blaming coaching change for playoff failure is not exactly a good excuse. Harden experience the same issue last season but still made the playoff. And Cousins illness isn't exactly major to change the course of 2015 Kings season.

[2klegend]

He's a Top 10 player based on virtually ALL of the numbers, except the should-be-making-Anthony-Tolliver-a-stud stat. And this is sustained greatness too. Not DeMar having a 3 week bender before inevitably returning to being himself. This is a perennial All NBA player and Team USA guy turning in his best work yet. He was better than Harden last night. He was better than Westbrook the night before that. He was better than DeRozan the game before that. He was better than Paul the game before that.

P.S. BTW, Cousins is annually a high impact guy, last year he was was 14th in RPM. The year before that he was 9th. Now he's got a coach using him correctly, and he's cleaned it up a little bit further still.

Nobody questions his stat padding prowess. Like Kevin Love in 2014 he's not Top 10.

I wonder what is the next excuse for Cousins if his team miss the playoff again?

Kevin Love was CLEARLY top 10 in 2014. In fact, we just did a POTY re-vote this summer and he ranked top 5 I believe. He had superstar IMPACT in 2014, not just stats.

On stat, he is top 10 and very much like Cousins. Though, there are 10 guys in 2014 I would pick over him.

[JordansBulls]

I see 8 players as being clearly better at this point: LeBron, Curry, KD, Westbrook, CP3, AD, Kawhi, Harden

Then there are guys like Lillard, Butler, PG13 and Griffin that are on the same playing field. Would probably put Boogie #10 or #11 behind Lillard and maybe Butler.

If Harden is clearly better or Kawhi then so is Jimmy.

[Winsome Gerbil]

I see 8 players as being clearly better at this point: LeBron, Curry, KD, Westbrook, CP3, AD, Kawhi, Harden

Then there are guys like Lillard, Butler, PG13 and Griffin that are on the same playing field. Would probably put Boogie #10 or #11 behind Lillard and maybe Butler.

If Harden is clearly better or Kawhi then so is Jimmy.

The problem there is that is this really Jimmy Butler? Or is this a guy having a great month? Because Jimmy Butler has never been near this level before. Statistically (and statistically only) Jimmy Butler is suddenly better than LeBron? Seems unlikely. More likely he's going to be one of those guys like Kemba and DeRozan and Lillard who will slowly slide back toward their normal numbers. Probably all have career best years, but not sudden mid-career superstar transformations.

[microfib4thewin]

I think there is argument for George and Lillard. There is a possibility that Cousins is not a player you build around. Offensively, he can score in a variety of ways, but he doesn't make a hard enough effort to score inside, and his outside game is mediocre. He is good at passing as a big, but his TS is league average and is not suitable at 36% usage. He would need to scale back on his usage alot unless he improves his shot selection or his jumpshots. Defensively, he is below average, he can make plays here and there, but he slacks off for the majority of the possessions. I know that DRPM favors him, but given that the Kings are near the bottom in Drtg all this says is that Cousins can turn the worst defense in the league to one of the worst. It's not an endorsement for a team with championship aspirations.

I am not going to write Cousins off completely just because he plays for a terrible team, but there are legitimate concerns on whether a team can be built around Cousins, and if he can't be the centerpiece then George and Lillard has an argument.

[Winsome Gerbil]

I think there is argument for George and Lillard. There is a possibility that Cousins is not a player you build around. Offensively, he can score in a variety of ways, but he doesn't make a hard enough effort to score inside, and his outside game is mediocre. He is good at passing as a big, but his TS is league average and is not suitable at 36% usage. He would need to scale back on his usage alot unless he improves his shot selection or his jumpshots. Defensively, he is below average, he can make plays here and there, but he slacks off for the majority of the possessions. I know that DRPM favors him, but given that the Kings are near the bottom in Drtg all this says is that Cousins can turn the worst defense in the league to one of the worst. It's not an endorsement for a team with championship aspirations.

I am not going to write Cousins off completely just because he plays for a terrible team, but there are legitimate concerns on whether a team can be built around Cousins, and if he can't be the centerpiece then George and Lillard has an argument.

um...this goes for whoever agreed with you as well:

1) DeMarcus Cousins goes as hard at the rim as any player in the league. Always has. Using my friend bballreference again, He is currently 2nd in the entire NBA in shots taken within 6 feet of the hoop, to Russell Westbrook. This thing that somehow he settles for outside shots turns a tremendous strength, that this guy is the epitome of a true modern center who can dribble, shoot, pass and attack the rim, and tries to turn it into a negative. Amusingly people will then spin around and sing the praises of similar inside out bigs like KAT or Davis.

2) Cousins has been one of the better defensive centers in the league for years. Not elite, he's not Gobert, and he's not a huge shotblocker, but he gets it done in his own way. He annually leads the league in charges drawn, has been a dominant defensive rebounder, and has great hands and is near the top of the list for steals from a center at any time. His numbers are down to start this season simply because they tried playing him out of position at PF to start the year (with Koufos at center). Wasn't working out, so now he's back in the middle and the numbers will probably rise to their normal levels. And no he doesn't slack off "the majority of the plays", although he's always been prone to getting caught arguing with a ref. Better about that this year actually.

3) his TS% this season is .573. League average is .542. And before you say something dumb about last season, George Karl was an idiot and was forcing his 6'11" 270lb center to catch the ball at the 3pt stripe every possession as part of his "dribble drive offense". Very few centers could have done much with that. Let's see what Dwight or Whiteside's TS% is if you throw it to them at the 3pt stripe and say go score big guy!

[Winsome Gerbil]

another 37-11 night, up to 28.3ppg 10.0reb now.

also shot 4-5 from 3pt land, and is now shooting .409 from 3pt land on the season on better than 4 threes a game.

[Colbinii]

On stat, he is top 10 and very much like Cousins. Though, there are 10 guys in 2014 I would pick over him.

On everything he was top 10 this year. Is Russell Westbrook a top 10 player this season? Or are "just his stats" top 10? There are not 10 guys you would pick over Kevin Love in 2014 if your goal was to win basketball games. If it is to sell tickets, I bet you could get 20 guys over Love, but there weren't 10 players who were better than Love in 2014.

I think there is argument for George and Lillard. There is a possibility that Cousins is not a player you build around.

Well, the same can be true for George and Lillard, no? Paul George has had playoff success, but he has had far better coaches and supporting cast than that of Cousins. Damian Lillard played with LMA and then had a competitive team around him with a good coach and they made the post-season last year. Do either of these situations mean that they are more like a player that you "build around" than Cousins? Of course not, as the amount of context in these situations is huge.

Offensively, he can score in a variety of ways, but he doesn't make a hard enough effort to score inside, and his outside game is mediocre.

While I agree with this to a certain extent, Cousin's has not had an ideal PF next to him during his tenure at Sacramento. He has been playing heavy minutes with other Centers or offensively challenged Power Forwards, forcing Cousins away from the basket. Yes, he could score more inside, but given his roster situation he is doing what is "best for the team".

He is good at passing as a big, but his TS is league average and is not suitable at 36% usage.

His TS% is quite a bit higher than league average, and he has already sustained "league average efficiency" at 35%+ usage rate last season.

He would need to scale back on his usage alot unless he improves his shot selection or his jumpshots.

In other words, if they had another semi-decent playmaker his usage would be lower, but since the Kings have put a poo-poo plater of playmakers around Cousins, Cousins is forced to be a far more utilized playmaker than he should.

This brings me to this question, Would Cousins lowering his usage rate have a positive effect on the current or past Kings teams?

Defensively, he is below average, he can make plays here and there, but he slacks off for the majority of the possessions.

This isn't true, especially if you are talking about 2016 or 2017 Cousins. The Kings last year were a 111.1 Defense without Cousins and a 106.9 defense with Cousins. For the record, the Kings had an awful defensive cast around Cousins in 2016, with only Gay and Casspi having positive DRPM on the entire team.

I know that DRPM favors him, but given that the Kings are near the bottom in Drtg all this says is that Cousins can turn the worst defense in the league to one of the worst.

That is completely false. It says a lot more than that. It says that Cousins can take one of the worst defensive supporting cast and a coach who doesn't "do" defense and turn them from a +4.7 defense to a +.5 (basically league average) defense. So, when Cousins was on the floor the Kings went from the 2nd worst defense in the league to the 17th best, a jump of 12 teams.

It's not an endorsement for a team with championship aspirations.

Cousins is the only endorsement for a team with championship aspirations on the Kings roster.

I am not going to write Cousins off completely just because he plays for a terrible team, but there are legitimate concerns on whether a team can be built around Cousins, and if he can't be the centerpiece then George and Lillard has an argument.

It sounds like you are writing him off. I don't really see the concerns of building around Cousins unless you think Cousins is LeBron James. Cousins is the best center in the NBA, one of the best big-men in the NBA, and has a BIG, positive impact on basketball games.

As for George and Lillard, both of them have shown leadership qualities, especially Paul George. I would take Paul George over Cousins because of that and the fact that he has proven that he can lead a team deep while Cousins and Lillard have not. I think you are selling Cousins short and aren't being rational if you think Lillard is a better corner piece than him. Lillard has a flaw that Cousins does not have and is far less complete than Cousins.

[HeartBreakKid]

There's also Giannis in contention for the last spot as well, and he's likely only going to improve as the season goes on.

[KF10]

Right now, yes.