Report: Pat Riley Hung Up On Tom Thibodeau When Wolves Asked For More Assets

[KGdaBom]

I mean Pat Riley has no leverage here. You're not really going to land a star for random role players. He built a very low ceiling team.

I don’t think you understand. Butler is leaving Wolves regardless. Richardson and a pick should be enough.

A protected pick that might never convey.

[jojo152433]

Riley deals away every first round pick he can for proven talent. He’s trying to win championships not be the Pacers

Getting Dwyane Wade who fell to the fifth pick in his draft, and getting LeBron to sign with his buddies will get you championships.

Leave the Pacers out of this.

I agree with your sentiment, but Wade didn't "fall" to the 5th pick that year. The top 4 was a lock on literally every mock draft and apparently with every GM.

Although Wade ended up being the 2nd best player of the 2003 draft, he was by no means the obvious pick for them at the time as you suggest. While I've never liked the Heat, you have to give credit when it's due. That was an excellent pick.

[Flash4thewin]

I mean Pat Riley has no leverage here. You're not really going to land a star for random role players. He built a very low ceiling team.

Riley built a massive payroll on purpose. So he could acquire multiple stars through trade. Riley deals away every first round pick he can for proven talent. He’s trying to win championships not be the Pacers

Massive payroll with actual talent is what one aims for, not what Pat has done. We can’t sign Butler so the only way to get him is via a trade. Butler will mostly need a sign and trade so again it’s the Wolves who are in charge unless you think Butler will take a massive paycht.

[The_Hater]

Domejandro your boy screwed up royal. You aren't getting better than Richardson, Waiters and a pick.

Three years of a washed up Waiters on a very bad contract was the screw up. No way do I believe that the Wolves would have ever agreed to three years of Waiters.

Why is waiters contract so bad? 11million is not that much anymore. Its in the range of your average 15ppg scorer, 5-7th man.

15 ppg sounds solid on the surface but since Waiters signed that deal he has missed 88/184 games and has a TS% under 50%. Those are 2 massive negatives and his contract is a huge negative as a result.

Anyways, I don’t blame Thibs for having second thoughts on this deal and I don’t blame Riley for being pissed that Thibs went back on his verbal agreement.

[Yosemite Dan]

Riley deals away every first round pick he can for proven talent. He’s trying to win championships not be the Pacers

Getting Dwyane Wade who fell to the fifth pick in his draft, and getting LeBron to sign with his buddies will get you championships.

Leave the Pacers out of this.

I agree with your sentiment, but Wade didn't "fall" to the 5th pick that year. The top 4 was a lock on literally every mock draft and apparently with every GM.

Although Wade ended up being the 2nd best player of the 2003 draft, he was by no means the obvious pick for them at the time as you suggest. While I've never liked the Heat, you have to give credit when it's due. That was an excellent pick.

Actually you’re wrong. The order of the top 4 minus Lebron was not set in stone. Darko especially was not guaranteed to go at #2.

The only reason the Raptors took Bosh instead of Wade was because they already had Carter. Bosh and Wade were a toss up depending on the drafting team’s need at the time. If Miami had the 4th pick they would have picked Wade. Whoever got picked at #4 was a guarantee that the other would go at #5. Wade was never projected to go outside the top 5.

[KGdaBom]

Three years of a washed up Waiters on a very bad contract was the screw up. No way do I believe that the Wolves would have ever agreed to three years of Waiters.

Why is waiters contract so bad? 11million is not that much anymore. Its in the range of your average 15ppg scorer, 5-7th man.

15 ppg sounds solid on the surface but since Waiters signed that deal he has missed 88/184 games and has a TS% under 50%. Those are 2 massive negatives and his contract is a huge negative as a result.

Anyways, I don’t blame Thibs for having second thoughts on this deal and I don’t blame Riley for being pissed that Thibs went back on his verbal agreement.

We don't know that Thibs ever did verbally agree. Also with the first round pick being protected if it didn't convey this year I don't think it could convey for the next three years after that.

[Heat3]

Getting Dwyane Wade who fell to the fifth pick in his draft, and getting LeBron to sign with his buddies will get you championships.

Leave the Pacers out of this.

I agree with your sentiment, but Wade didn't "fall" to the 5th pick that year. The top 4 was a lock on literally every mock draft and apparently with every GM.

Although Wade ended up being the 2nd best player of the 2003 draft, he was by no means the obvious pick for them at the time as you suggest. While I've never liked the Heat, you have to give credit when it's due. That was an excellent pick.

Actually you’re wrong. The order of the top 4 minus Lebron was not set in stone. Darko especially was not guaranteed to go at #2.

The only reason the Raptors took Bosh instead of Wade was because they already had Carter. Bosh and Wade were a toss up depending on the drafting team’s need at the time. If Miami had the 4th pick they would have picked Wade. Whoever got picked at #4 was a guarantee that the other would go at #5. Wade was never projected to go outside the top 5.

If Miami had the #4 they would have taken Bosh. With the #5 Wade was not a lock for the Heat. They were debating taking Chris Kaman until draft day. Wade was projected to go top 7, because Chicago would have taken him had he fallen to them.

[The_Hater]

Getting Dwyane Wade who fell to the fifth pick in his draft, and getting LeBron to sign with his buddies will get you championships.

Leave the Pacers out of this.

I agree with your sentiment, but Wade didn't "fall" to the 5th pick that year. The top 4 was a lock on literally every mock draft and apparently with every GM.

Although Wade ended up being the 2nd best player of the 2003 draft, he was by no means the obvious pick for them at the time as you suggest. While I've never liked the Heat, you have to give credit when it's due. That was an excellent pick.

Actually you’re wrong. The order of the top 4 minus Lebron was not set in stone. Darko especially was not guaranteed to go at #2.

The only reason the Raptors took Bosh instead of Wade was because they already had Carter. Bosh and Wade were a toss up depending on the drafting team’s need at the time. If Miami had the 4th pick they would have picked Wade. Whoever got picked at #4 was a guarantee that the other would go at #5. Wade was never projected to go outside the top 5.

My recollection of the 2003 draft is the top 4 went exactly how everyone expected in the weeks leading up to the draft. Exact 4 players in the exact order. ‘Set in stone’ might be a little strong because surprises do happen with teams thst keep their intentions hidden but it was as close to that as any draft’s top 4 that I can remember. The questions actually started at #5 where TJ Ford and a couple of others were rumoured to be in the mix with Wade.

[The_Hater]

Why is waiters contract so bad? 11million is not that much anymore. Its in the range of your average 15ppg scorer, 5-7th man.

15 ppg sounds solid on the surface but since Waiters signed that deal he has missed 88/184 games and has a TS% under 50%. Those are 2 massive negatives and his contract is a huge negative as a result.

Anyways, I don’t blame Thibs for having second thoughts on this deal and I don’t blame Riley for being pissed that Thibs went back on his verbal agreement.

We don't know that Thibs ever did verbally agree. Also with the first round pick being protected if it didn't convey this year I don't think it could convey for the next three years after that.

If they were exchanging medical reports, then there was some sort of verbal agreement in place. That’s how the process works.

[Metallikid]

15 ppg sounds solid on the surface but since Waiters signed that deal he has missed 88/184 games and has a TS% under 50%. Those are 2 massive negatives and his contract is a huge negative as a result.

Anyways, I don’t blame Thibs for having second thoughts on this deal and I don’t blame Riley for being pissed that Thibs went back on his verbal agreement.

We don't know that Thibs ever did verbally agree. Also with the first round pick being protected if it didn't convey this year I don't think it could convey for the next three years after that.

If they were exchanging medical reports, then there was some sort of verbal agreement in place. That’s how the process works.

More importantly Pat Riley has been around far too long to fall for that kind of bull move - to try to get a sweetener with the medical info you just made a verbal agreement to get.

[The_Hater]

We don't know that Thibs ever did verbally agree. Also with the first round pick being protected if it didn't convey this year I don't think it could convey for the next three years after that.

If they were exchanging medical reports, then there was some sort of verbal agreement in place. That’s how the process works.

More importantly Pat Riley has been around far too long to fall for that kind of bull move - to try to get a sweetener with the medical info you just made a verbal agreement to get.

The only possibility that makes Thibs more the the right than Riley is if one of the medical reports came back much worse than expected prompting him to ask for additional assets, similar to what happened in the Irving/Thomas trade last year.

[Rashidi]

The Wolves are better off letting Butler walk than taking on Dion Waiters and his contract.

Josh Richardson and a 1st rounder in the 20s doesn't move the needle enough to make absorbing Waiters worth it.

[mplsfonz23]

I mean Pat Riley has no leverage here. You're not really going to land a star for random role players. He built a very low ceiling team.

here is no way in h*ll is that enough.
F Riley and his screwed up cap situation. They are not going to be able to sign him this summer no matter what.
Let Butler rot on the bench until PR comes crawling back, or sell him for peanuts at the deadline just to stick it to both of them.

[Dewey]

Sounds like plains, trains, and automobiled when steve martin got fleeced over a taxi ... anyway, I can just hear Thibs, "if you're willing to offer 1 FRP, then certainly you're willing to give us 2 FRP's !!

Clearly Thibs wants to send one FRP to help move bodies for capspace... then keep the other FRP

[Hoopzilla]

There are a lot of people on this board that have the same problem Thibs has. A disgruntled player on an expiring contract is worth 50 cents on the dollar at best, but they think he is worth a huge haul. There is no universe where you get anywhere close to equal value for him and the longer you wait, the lower his value gets...

[mplsfonz23]

There are a lot of people on this board that have the same problem Thibs has. A disgruntled player on an expiring contract is worth 50 cents on the dollar at best, but they think he is worth a huge haul. There is no universe where you get anywhere close to equal value for him and the longer you wait, the lower his value gets...

We are not talking about any disgruntled player, he's top 15 in the league and should be worth more than Dion freaking out of shape Wiaters. Josh is nice, but the FRP is protected until when?

I think Thibs is doing what best to save his arse. His career depends on this trade, or non trade.
Riley has been giving away picks since he got there, now he wants to keep one? Call his bluff, and let them figure out how to get out of that mess he's made. Good luck. I'll hang up now.

[mplsfonz23]

In a few years Miami fans might look back and say why didn't we pull the trigger?

[oceanlife]

In a few years Miami fans might look back and say why didn't we pull the trigger?

It's possible Miami would wish they had Butler in a few months, but at the same time a GM like Riley can't get a reputation for being a pushover in trade talks. If (as reported) a trade was agreed to in principle and the other party (Thibs) started nibbling by asking for more assets, the correct response is to tell them to &*$# off. Otherwise every future trading parter would try to take advantage of Riley by always asking for more assets at the last second. Riley has been doing this for a long time and isn't about to damage his business reputation over a single season or player.

[Hoopzilla]

There are a lot of people on this board that have the same problem Thibs has. A disgruntled player on an expiring contract is worth 50 cents on the dollar at best, but they think he is worth a huge haul. There is no universe where you get anywhere close to equal value for him and the longer you wait, the lower his value gets...

We are not talking about any disgruntled player, he's top 15 in the league and should be worth more than Dion freaking out of shape Wiaters. Josh is nice, but the FRP is protected until when?

I think Thibs is doing what best to save his arse. His career depends on this trade, or non trade.
Riley has been giving away picks since he got there, now he wants to keep one? Call his bluff, and let them figure out how to get out of that mess he's made. Good luck. I'll hang up now.

Disgruntled - angry or dissatisfied.

This is the exact sort of denial I am talking about. In what universe is Butler not angry or dissatisfied? He has expressed his dissatisfaction in the form of a trade request (which he has reaffirmed multiple times since) and his appearance at the team practice made it very clear he is angry. Open your eyes, he is the walking definition of a disgruntled player.

Thibs is trying to get the best package he can, sure. His job will be gone if he tries to hold onto Butler and he walks away for nothing. Nevermind the reputation he is earning by being so unreasonable in his expectations. How do you think negotiations will go moving forward if Thibs is looking to acquire someone and needs the other team to be reasonable with him?

Riley has no mess to clean up, he has leverage in the trade and will not give it up. They are not fighting with anyone else for Butler; Houston does not want to give up Gordon and Tucker to get him. It's not like they are in a long line trying to outbid a string of teams for his services. Thibs can hang up the phone and call bluffs if he wants, but he is playing a very dangerous game since it is his team that needs to find a trade for their disgruntled player and not the other way around...

[mplsfonz23]

In a few years Miami fans might look back and say why didn't we pull the trigger?

It's possible Miami would wish they had Butler in a few months, but at the same time a GM like Riley can't get a reputation for being a pushover in trade talks. If (as reported) a trade was agreed to in principle and the other party (Thibs) started nibbling by asking for more assets, the correct response is to tell them to &*$# off. Otherwise every future trading parter would try to take advantage of Riley by always asking for more assets at the last second. Riley has been doing this for a long time and isn't about to damage his business reputation over a single season or player.

I get that. But at the same time, Josh, washed up Waiters and a future late pick (if any) for an all star? Thibs will get zero respect in his next trade talks. He might as well throw in Towns for Whiteside str8 up.