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SO_MONEY wrote:

Worm Guts wrote:

SO_MONEY wrote:Oh, yes it would be if caught.

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If nothing else, it's just way harder to prove stuff when you don't write it down.

It is not a court of law, so if it is obvious and it would have to be to go down, the NBA will come down hard on both teams and the player.

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I think you could get away with it if everyone was really on board. Is there any precedent for the NBA punishing verbal agreements? I mean the Joe Smith thing wouldn't have been punished if it was a verbal agreement.

Worm Guts wrote:

SO_MONEY wrote:

Worm Guts wrote:I don't think it's quite the Joe Smith situation, where an illegal contract was actually signed. I do think there's too many moving parts for this to be agreed upon by before the free agent period.

Oh, yes it would be if caught.

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If nothing else, it's just way harder to prove stuff when you don't write it down.

Towns to Russell: "If Kyrie goes to Brooklyn and they don't give you a five-year, you should come to Minnesota."
Minnesota to Brooklyn: "If you need help facilitating a trade for Anthony Davis, we would be interested in having discussions with D'Angelo Russell in a sign-and-trade once the free-agency period begins."
Brooklyn to Russell: "Would you be willing to accept a sign-and-trade to Minnesota, if we sign Kyrie Irving?"

See, no real tampering, you can't punish players for privately talking, no way you can prove that unless you prove it is at the behest of the front-office!

Obviously I'm kind of taking the piss with that structure, but I honestly think there is no real way to enforce something like that unless somebody opens their mouth about it. Brooklyn, Minnesota, and New Orleans are all quiet organizations, if D'Angelo Russell is 100% on-board, it would totally work.

Norseman79 wrote:So, you don't think there are any behind the scenes discussions between GM's and teams about trades and signings before FA begins?

Correct on s&t. Incorrect on trades.

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Domejandro wrote:

Worm Guts wrote:

SO_MONEY wrote:Oh, yes it would be if caught.

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If nothing else, it's just way harder to prove stuff when you don't write it down.

Towns to Russell: "If Kyrie goes to Brooklyn and they don't give you a five-year, you should come to Minnesota."
Minnesota to Brooklyn: "If you need help facilitating a trade for Anthony Davis, we would be interested in having discussions with D'Angelo Russell in a sign-and-trade once the free-agency period begins."
Brooklyn to Russell: "Would you be willing to accept a sign-and-trade to Minnesota, if we sign Kyrie Irving?"

See, no real tampering, you can't punish players for privately talking, no way you can prove that unless you prove it is at the behest of the front-office!

Obviously I'm kind of taking the piss with that structure, but I honestly think there is no real way to enforce something like that unless somebody opens their mouth about it. Brooklyn, Minnesota, and New Orleans are all quiet organizations, if D'Angelo Russell is 100% on-board, it would totally work.

The third part is a problem.

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If the Lakers haven't been punished for tampering in the past two years, no way anyone else should unless it is blatant and put on paper.

Norseman79 wrote:If the Lakers haven't been punished for tampering in the past two years, no way anyone else should unless it is blatant and put on paper.

Spot on, but this is the Wolves were talking about. Silver will make an example out of us to make it look as if he has it under control.

Some toughts on why a 3 way trade for AD/ S&T for Russell could work:

1.Teague is one of the best players who are expiring this season. There are bigger expirings but most of them are 1)MAX players too good be included to facilitate another deals or 2)Totally negative contracts.

2.If the pels are going to trade AD they most likely will need money incoming.

3. If they are trying to get assets for AD while remaining competitive (to not end with Zion asking out) they could value a playable PG in a big expiring deal (along picks/rookie scaled contracts) instead of 2-3 players on multi year deals.

4.Teague could play along Holyday pretty well since the Pels are always trying to put Jrue at the 2.

5.Maxing Russell will be a risky manouver. He has potential so he could get some offers, but didnt reach the fire proof status, so definetly many teams could run away from it, including Brooklyn.

6.If the wolves trade Teague for Russell (more salary needs to be going out) they will likely not sign anyone for the MLE but should remain under the tax this season. They will be above the tax next year without additional moves, but Dieng could be easier to dump since he will be expiring by then.

Killboard wrote:Some toughts on why a 3 way trade for AD/ S&T for Russell could work:

1.Teague is one of the best players who are expiring this season. There are bigger expirings but most of them are 1)MAX players too good be included to facilitate another deals or 2)Totally negative contracts.

2.If the pels are going to trade AD they most likely will need money incoming.

3. If they are trying to get assets for AD while remaining competitive (to not end with Zion asking out) they could value a playable PG in a big expiring deal (along picks/rookie scaled contracts) instead of 2-3 players on multi year deals.

4.Teague could play along Holyday pretty well since the Pels are always trying to put Jrue at the 2.

5.Maxing Russell will be a risky manouver. He has potential so he could get some offers, but didnt reach the fire proof status, so definetly many teams could run away from it, including Brooklyn.

6.If the wolves trade Teague for Russell (more salary needs to be going out) they will likely not sign anyone for the MLE but should remain under the tax this season. They will be above the tax next year without additional moves, but Dieng could be easier to dump since he will be expiring by then.

If there is a S&T for Russell and he gets the max, I suspect Wiggins not Teauge would be the one MN wants traded. Of course Teauge and Covington might work.

Either way, I don't think it happens because Russell is not worth the Max, MN wants cheap talent and to get out from under salary and Brooklyn wants space too.

It is probably a nothing rumor and if I remember it is really an old rumor.

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Old rumor? I don’t think so.

Wiggins aint worth the max but neither is Rusell. No thanks let the nets overpay him and then regret it.

SO_MONEY wrote:

Killboard wrote:Some toughts on why a 3 way trade for AD/ S&T for Russell could work:

1.Teague is one of the best players who are expiring this season. There are bigger expirings but most of them are 1)MAX players too good be included to facilitate another deals or 2)Totally negative contracts.

2.If the pels are going to trade AD they most likely will need money incoming.

3. If they are trying to get assets for AD while remaining competitive (to not end with Zion asking out) they could value a playable PG in a big expiring deal (along picks/rookie scaled contracts) instead of 2-3 players on multi year deals.

4.Teague could play along Holyday pretty well since the Pels are always trying to put Jrue at the 2.

5.Maxing Russell will be a risky manouver. He has potential so he could get some offers, but didnt reach the fire proof status, so definetly many teams could run away from it, including Brooklyn.

6.If the wolves trade Teague for Russell (more salary needs to be going out) they will likely not sign anyone for the MLE but should remain under the tax this season. They will be above the tax next year without additional moves, but Dieng could be easier to dump since he will be expiring by then.

If there is a S&T for Russell and he gets the max, I suspect Wiggins not Teauge would be the one MN wants traded. Of course Teauge and Covington might work.

Either way, I don't think it happens because Russell is not worth the Max, MN wants cheap talent and to get out from under salary and Brooklyn wants space too.

It is probably a nothing rumor and if I remember it is really an old rumor.

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Of course the wolves would want Wiggins out for financial purposes, but Wiggins is a negative contract and there is no way Brooklyn is trading Russell for him. Have to be two separate deals.

Russell fits a lot better with KAT, from the shooting to the passing and ball handling. Maybe Wiggins is given some months or maybe a year to do things other than scoring, maybe he regains some of his value, but if Russell is here the next move is trade Wiggins for the less damaging package available.

I know for sure Rosas tenure will be close mouthed, for which the rumor could be nets/agent driven. Ideally Rosas can find a version of Dlo with the lakers, buying low instead of high, but a move for a offenive stud PG could be franchise changing, and there arent many young PG as good as Russell who can be had via trade.

CHA: Wiggins
BRO: Batum, MIN #11
MIN: De Angelo Russell, BRO #31

Separate deal.
BRO: Teague
MIN: Crabbe

Draft Samanic, Lecque

KAT/Dieng
Saric/KBD/Samanic
RoCo/Reynolds/KBD
Okogie/Crabbe/Russell
Russell/Tyus/Lecque

This is much more balanced roster.

MEM: Wiggins, Teague, #11 MIN pick
MIN: Conley, Bradley, #21 OKC pick
OKC: Jeremi Grant

Why for MEM: Conley price is the highest right now, but Mike is also very injury prone, so AW, #11 pick in combination with #2 pick give them good foundation for rebuild.

OKC will release Bradley and save some money.

Why for MIN: get two players who are perfect fit. Grant as defensive minded PF and Conley as PnR maestro.

Draft Cam Johnson and Matisse Thybulle

KAT/Dieng
Saric/Grant/KBD
RoCo/KBD/Johnson
Okogie/Reynolds/Thybulle
Conley/Tyus

I'm all for Grant, I'd start him over Saric actually but I don't think OKC would let him go for almost nothing.

minimus wrote:MEM: Wiggins, Teague, #11 MIN pick
MIN: Conley, Bradley, #21 OKC pick
OKC: Jeremi Grant

Why for MEM: Conley price is the highest right now, but Mike is also very injury prone, so AW, #11 pick in combination with #2 pick give them good foundation for rebuild.

OKC will release Bradley and save some money.

Why for MIN: get two players who are perfect fit. Grant as defensive minded PF and Conley as PnR maestro.

Draft Cam Johnson and Matisse Thybulle

KAT/Dieng
Saric/Grant/KBD
RoCo/KBD/Johnson
Okogie/Reynolds/Thybulle
Conley/Tyus

If I read your notes right, I think you have Grant and Bradley going to the wrong teams, which is another reason I prefer people write the IN/OUT format in three or four team deals. Individually, the deals are this:

MEM OUT: Conley, Bradley ($13 exp)
MEM IN: Wiggins, Teague ($19 mil expiring), #11

OKC OUT: Jerami Grant ($13 exp), 21 pick
OKC IN: Bradley ($9.3, $9.4)

I don’t think either team does this. Wiggins deal is too negative, even with the inclusion of Bradley, and OKC won’t give up a 1st to get out of $3.7 mil (even with lux taxes), especially if they are cutting Bradley for zero production. Maybe if they got cap space for him.

minimus wrote:CHA: Wiggins
BRO: Batum, MIN #11
MIN: De Angelo Russell, BRO #31

Separate deal.
BRO: Teague
MIN: Crabbe

Draft Samanic, Lecque

KAT/Dieng
Saric/KBD/Samanic
RoCo/Reynolds/KBD
Okogie/Crabbe/Russell
Russell/Tyus/Lecque

This is much more balanced roster.

I suspect BRK would choose option A (keeping Russell) or option B (letting him go for cap space) rather than take on Batum’s bad money. I don’t think the #11 has great value this year.

Teague for Crabbe is interesting as a threeteamer. Similar salaries and similar value. MIN would need another PG (which you did here), but BRK has star free agent possibilities , Russell, and they already paid Dinwiddie for four years.

Killboard wrote:1.Teague is one of the best players who are expiring this season. There are bigger expirings but most of them are 1)MAX players too good be included to facilitate another deals or 2)Totally negative contracts.

This is an excellent point, that I think bears repeating.

There is too much shorthand over on the trade board that results in myth. There are still people that believe an expiring is inherently valuable, but it is really just a mechanism to match salaries to give up future cap space. That’s where the value comes from.

Then there is the myth that all expiring are worth the same, which is clearly untrue. Would you rather have Antony Davis expiring next year, or Teague’s?

In the end, an expiring’s value is determined the same way as any player .. is he going to produce as much as he’s paid?

You make a good point, that Teague’s expiring is a better fit for certain teams than others. Some teams want the benefit of a starter for the money this year, but want to clear space in 2020. Some won’t want to lock up a free agent for 3-4 years. I think we will see this free agency produce a lot of overpaid contracts, and there will be many who don’t get their guy, and want to re-set for next year. I think Teague’s expiring will have more value in the middle of July, after we see how things start to shake out.

Weird thought, but maybe Jimmy Buckets unintentionally does the Wolves a favor this offseason. Irving goes to the Nets, then Jimmy tells the Sixers he is going to the Nets too to join him and they can either trade him or let him walk for nothing. The Sixers are not in a position to let him walk for nothing with their cap situation, so they are willing to lose a little on a trade to recoup some value. This brings us to the following possibility:

Nets in: Jimmy Butler, Dario
Nets Out: D. Russell

Sixers in: Wiggins (young and can be paired with Embiid, Simmons, and Harris for years to come) I imagine Wiggins and Embiid are friends from their Kansas time.
Sixers Out: Butler (else will leave and they get nothing)

MN In: D. Russell
MN Out: Wiggins, Dario

If Russell is given the max, how much salary do we need to clear this year in order to sign him? I am not sure what his max looks like.

post0115 wrote:Weird thought, but maybe Jimmy Buckets unintentionally does the Wolves a favor this offseason. Irving goes to the Nets, then Jimmy tells the Sixers he is going to the Nets too to join him and they can either trade him or let him walk for nothing. The Sixers are not in a position to let him walk for nothing with their cap situation, so they are willing to lose a little on a trade to recoup some value. This brings us to the following possibility:

Nets in: Jimmy Butler, Dario
Nets Out: D. Russell

Sixers in: Wiggins (young and can be paired with Embiid, Simmons, and Harris for years to come) I imagine Wiggins and Embiid are friends from their Kansas time.
Sixers Out: Butler (else will leave and they get nothing)

MN In: D. Russell
MN Out: Wiggins, Dario

that's interesting. I like where your head is at. Kyrie even let it be known that the Wolves were a possible destination a couple of years ago because Butler was on the team, so they're obviously close. I'm not sure that trade would go down but I appreciate your out-of-the-box thinking...