Better peak - Leonard vs Russell

[Senior]

What are we doing here.

inflating our post counts

[e83pw2oa9hl5f]

What are we doing here.

inflating our post counts

Do we win something LOL
I thought we were just reinforcing several opinions on ......

[Jaivl]

Who's better - HBK's Kawhi or AUF's Kobe?

[An Unbiased Fan]

Who's better - HBK's Kawhi or AUF's Kobe?

PC board's KG

[Dr Spaceman]

What are we doing here.

inflating our post counts

Do we win something LOL
I thought we were just reinforcing several opinions on ......

Poster Efficiency Rating rewards volume. Best to shoot from the hip and deal with the fallout later.

[Dr Spaceman]

Who's better - HBK's Kawhi or AUF's Kobe?

PC board's KG

This was a pretty sharp response, good on you haha

[Amares]

Maybe we open a topic - Is Kawhi the most overrated player in the league now?
If this thread was open just because of HBK trolling I guess it has no reason to exist, it's clear choice for everyone.

[70sFan]

Russell isn't massively better than Leonard at any thing unless you want to try the health argument.

Scoring - Leonard is massively better
Passing - Russell is slightly better
Defense - Russell is slightly better

Leonard led his team in rebounds and is an elite rebounder for his position.

Overall, Leonard is better.

Leonard is a 2 time defensive player of the year and was the catalyst for one of the greatest defensive playoff runs ever in 2019. At the end of the day, Leonard is much better on defense than Russell is on offense.

All people laugh at defense comments, but I want to focus on different thing:

You just admited you believe that Russell wasn't massively better REBOUNDER than Kawhi because "Leonard led his team in rebounds and is an elite rebounder for his position". This is even more ridiculous than defensive comparison and honestly I'm surprised that I'm alone that realized that.

Russell is at worst top 10 rebounder ever. Kawhi is not top 10 rebounder ever at his position.

Bird plays less on the wing than kawhi and wouldn't be able to defend SF's today. He's more of a PF type in today's game. Leonard is a rare SF rebounder who won a title leading his team in rebounds, how many SF besides James or Bird have done that? Leonard also had multiple game clinching offensive rebounds to win vs 76ers and bucks. Great hands, great length, great determination. Total package as a rebounder. Late game offensive rebounds are critical. Rebounding in games that clinch finals appearances almost better, Leonard had 17 rebounds in game 6 bucks game. Stop sleeping on his rebounding.

I didn't mention Bird (who was FAR better rebounder than Kawhi) and I don't need to because I'd still find 10 SFs better at rebounding than Kawhi.

I don't sleep on his rebounding, you simply compare him to Bill Russell who was probably the best rebounder in NBA history. But because Leonard had 17 rebounds in one game, he's also comparable to Russell right? Guess what? Russell had 40 rebounds in game 7 of 1962 finals. Even adjusted to pace, this is something Kawhi will never do. Because he's good rebounder for his position. Nothing more. Comparing him to Bill Russell in that aspect makes you completely out of mind. Sorry, but that's the truth.

[70sFan]

Leonard has some of the best hands ever, only Jordan is close in their hands. Leonard also has elite athleticism, elite length, elite strength. He shut down Giannis, shut down Butler. In the finals he guarded Draymond and roamed around on defense and averaged over a block a game. Leonard is that guy. He's intimidating and he's goat level when hes locked in on somebody. His teams in 15, 16,17 were all elite defense. Russell is better on defense but Leonard is a stud in his own right.

Russell's scoring ability is what's more questionable.

Russell had better athleticism, better length, better strength. He shut down Wilt Chamberlain who was far better than Giannis or Jimmy freaking Butler. He also locked down offenses run by Oscar Robertson and Jerry West. He's intimidated to a point that guards didn't want to drive to the paint in a league without three point line and some anecdotes even tell us that some of guards were scared of taking open jumpshots without looking at Russell twice.

Russell lead elite defenses in 13 years of his career and only 5 of his teams were better than Kawhi's best defensive team (2016 Spurs), 8 of them better than 2017 Spurs.

Also, finally, Russell's defense is much more valuable than Kawhi's offense. Not even a question.

Length? A big man to a SF? You want to play that game, Leonard is the better shooter and ball handler. The passing isn't huge, the scoring gap is huge. The offensive gap is bigger than the defense gap Do you see why Leonard is better now? Make sure you read the bold letters.

Why do you keep talking about offense when I replied about defense?

Scoring gap is huge, offensive gap is also big. Defensive gap is far bigger and you are the only one who can't get it.

Kawhi is not GOAT offensive player, he's very good volume scorer who can carry weaker teams but can't run elite offense because he's mediocre playmaker and he needs a lot of time to score. Russell is GOAT offensive player who can make your defense the best ever with average roster.

You can say all you want your bolded part, but you can't convince me with words alone. Show me some stats to back it up. Not individual scoring stats but how Kawhi improved offenses and makes them ATG ones. You won't show me that because that stats don't exist.

Meanwhile Russell anchored 4 best defensive teams of all time by rDRtg. He led the best defense in the league in 1958 and in 1969, both dominant by any margin. Not to mention that rDRtg actually decreases gap for smaller league, so the Celtics were actually more dominant than their numbers suggest.

Show me something tangible that would say Kawhi is better. Something different than scoring stats.

So far, you can look at poll results and think about it. Maybe, just maybe, you can be wrong? Because 40 people on PC Board are not Kawhi haters. Hell, I really like Kawhi. I hope that Clippers will win next year and I hope that Kawhi will build his legacy as an ATG player. But he's not close to GOAT candidate like Bill Russell and you are the only one who in this thread who fights against Bill.

[Gooner]

Kawhi is a better player, Russell has a better legacy.

[70sFan]

Kawhi is a better player, Russell has a better legacy.

Why it doesn't surprise me that only Jordan stan picks Kawhi here?

[Gooner]

Kawhi is a better player, Russell has a better legacy.

Why it doesn't surprise me that only Jordan stan picks Kawhi here?

Objectively, if we are looking at skill level, Kawhi is just better.

[70sFan]

Kawhi is a better player, Russell has a better legacy.

Why it doesn't surprise me that only Jordan stan picks Kawhi here?

Objectively, if we are looking at skill level, Kawhi is just better.

Skill is very subjective term. In terms of impact and value on the court, Russell is just better.

Russell is actually one the most skilled defenders ever, but scoring is the only way to look at skills, right?

[Gooner]

Why it doesn't surprise me that only Jordan stan picks Kawhi here?

Objectively, if we are looking at skill level, Kawhi is just better.

Skill is very subjective term. In terms of impact and value on the court, Russell is just better.

Russell is actually one the most skilled defenders ever, but scoring is the only way to look at skills, right?

Kawhi is a skilled defender aswell, and he is much more skilled as a scorer. Basketball is the game of creation.

[70sFan]

Objectively, if we are looking at skill level, Kawhi is just better.

Skill is very subjective term. In terms of impact and value on the court, Russell is just better.

Russell is actually one the most skilled defenders ever, but scoring is the only way to look at skills, right?

Kawhi is a skilled defender aswell, and he is much more skilled as a scorer. Basketball is the game of creation.

Russell created environment that made his team more effective than Kawhi's team.
Russell was rebounder which creates more opportunities for his team. Russell is better passer too.

[Gooner]

Skill is very subjective term. In terms of impact and value on the court, Russell is just better.

Russell is actually one the most skilled defenders ever, but scoring is the only way to look at skills, right?

Kawhi is a skilled defender aswell, and he is much more skilled as a scorer. Basketball is the game of creation.

Russell created environment that made his team more effective than Kawhi's team.
Russell was rebounder which creates more opportunities for his team. Russell is better passer too.

Kawhi would get 15 rebounds in that era, and he would average more assists with all the attention he would be getting. No one would be able to guard him in that era. He would destroy dudes like Tommy Heinsohn and Tom Sanders.

[70sFan]

Kawhi is a skilled defender aswell, and he is much more skilled as a scorer. Basketball is the game of creation.

Russell created environment that made his team more effective than Kawhi's team.
Russell was rebounder which creates more opportunities for his team. Russell is better passer too.

Kawhi would get 15 rebounds in that era, and he would average more assists with all the attention he would be getting. No one would be able to guard him in that era. He would destroy dudes like Tommy Heinsohn and Tom Sanders.

15 rebounds is still much less than what Russell averaged. He wouldn't get much more assists because players back then averaged less assists on average. He would also have to adjust his handles and footwork because that wouldn't work in the 60s.
It's also funny that you mentioned Tom Sanders because he was one of the best man defenders at his position and he would definitely give Kawhi problems, he was long and athletic. It just shows how little you know about pre-MJ NBA if you put Sanders and Heinsohn on the same tier defensively and if you think that Sanders would be destroyed.

[70sFan]

Not to mention that being "more skilled" doesn't make you better player. Jerry West was more skilled than Shaquille O'Neal, but he wasn't better player because of that.

[Gooner]

Russell created environment that made his team more effective than Kawhi's team.
Russell was rebounder which creates more opportunities for his team. Russell is better passer too.

Kawhi would get 15 rebounds in that era, and he would average more assists with all the attention he would be getting. No one would be able to guard him in that era. He would destroy dudes like Tommy Heinsohn and Tom Sanders.

15 rebounds is still much less than what Russell averaged. He wouldn't get much more assists because players back then averaged less assists on average. He would also have to adjust his handles and footwork because that wouldn't work in the 60s.
It's also funny that you mentioned Tom Sanders because he was one of the best man defenders at his position and he would definitely give Kawhi problems, he was long and athletic. It just shows how little you know about pre-MJ NBA if you put Sanders and Heinsohn on the same tier defensively and if you think that Sanders would be destroyed.

Tom Sanders never had to defend someone like Kawhi. It's a different time, basketball has evolved since then.

[70sFan]

Kawhi would get 15 rebounds in that era, and he would average more assists with all the attention he would be getting. No one would be able to guard him in that era. He would destroy dudes like Tommy Heinsohn and Tom Sanders.

15 rebounds is still much less than what Russell averaged. He wouldn't get much more assists because players back then averaged less assists on average. He would also have to adjust his handles and footwork because that wouldn't work in the 60s.
It's also funny that you mentioned Tom Sanders because he was one of the best man defenders at his position and he would definitely give Kawhi problems, he was long and athletic. It just shows how little you know about pre-MJ NBA if you put Sanders and Heinsohn on the same tier defensively and if you think that Sanders would be destroyed.

Tom Sanders never had to defend someone like Kawhi. It's a different time, basketball has evolved since then.

He had to defend Elgin Baylor, who was better athlete than Kawhi.