Rosenthal: Astros to lose two 1st round picks, Luhnow, Hinch suspended for year for sign stealing scandal

[I_Like_Dirt]

It shouldn't be that hard to police. Absolutely, every team can figure out what the signs are, but that doesn't mean that they have a way to transmit that information to the one person who actually needs it, the dude standing in a chalk box surrounded by nothing but officials and opposing players. The reason the Astros resorted to such a crude method is that there aren't a lot of great ways to convey that information, which is only available for a couple seconds prior to the ball being thrown, without drawing a whole lot of unwanted attention.

Beyond that, the penalties are now high enough that it probably isn't a rational play given that I'm guessing that the benefits, while absolutely real, aren't overwhelming. You can't really rely on omerta, because players are constantly moving on...you release the wrong RP with a 6.00 ERA and your odds of a lifetime ban from baseball look fairly good.

All it's going to take is for some 1st base coach with a hearing aid to get the information. There are all sorts of ways to circumvent this stuff that either haven't been tried yet or haven't been caught yet.

As for the penalties being steep enough that it's going to prevent it, you've been a fan of sports for a long time now and are a rational person. Do you seriously believe that?

Beyond that, the whole "big deal" still hasn't been explained to me. It still strikes me as just plain ridiculous that the league would waste their time trying to police something like this to avoid giving the hitters any advantage while on the other hand creating rubber balls that give the hitter a major advantage anyway. The outrage for something that one team was caught doing while any number of other teams were doing something similar but weren't caught because they weren't in the spotlight as they didn't win the World Series is completely misdirecting the discussion away from actually productive ideas, in my view. But I wasn't totally joking about how moral grandstanding is a part of the game. Just because I don't care for it doesn't mean others agree with me so I fully expect a fair few people to disagree with me there. Sign stealing isn't the same as a lot of other violations out there.

[C Court]

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[Schad]

All it's going to take is for some 1st base coach with a hearing aid to get the information. There are all sorts of ways to circumvent this stuff that either haven't been tried yet or haven't been caught yet.

And the first base coach will convey it using...hand signals? That will be visible to everyone in the park? And that would not be visible to a left-handed hitter?

As for the penalties being steep enough that it's going to prevent it, you've been a fan of sports for a long time now and are a rational person. Do you seriously believe that?

Yes, because I believe that coaches and players are ultimately self-interested. Taking PEDs is still not a wholly irrational decision, because the performance boost is significant, you can still avoid detection some of the time, and the penalties don't immediately go nuclear. Baseball has indicated that it's going to go nuclear here, and it's not a solitary activity...everyone on the team will know you're doing it, and within months that means that people on other teams will know you're doing it, too. There's a reason why game-fixing isn't a thing anymore in baseball; the cost/benefit ratio is severely out of whack.

Beyond that, the whole "big deal" still hasn't been explained to me. It still strikes me as just plain ridiculous that the league would waste their time trying to police something like this to avoid giving the hitters any advantage while on the other hand creating rubber balls that give the hitter a major advantage anyway. The outrage for something that one team was caught doing while any number of other teams were doing something similar but weren't caught because they weren't in the spotlight as they didn't win the World Series is completely misdirecting the discussion away from actually productive ideas, in my view. But I wasn't totally joking about how moral grandstanding is a part of the game. Just because I don't care for it doesn't mean others agree with me so I fully expect a fair few people to disagree with me there. Sign stealing isn't the same as a lot of other violations out there.

For the same reason that, when this initially came up, I said that MLB would come down hard on the Astros when you were expecting more of a slap on the wrist: the league represents the 30 teams, and something that benefits some teams over others is bad for the overall bottom line. The rubber ball benefits hitters, but it benefits all of the hitters in the league. Electronic sign-stealing benefited only those teams that had set up a relay system and co-opted the supposedly unaffiliated replay monitor. And yeah, you can argue that other teams should simply cheat better, but that's unlikely to ever be the league's position.

[nbakid123]

Houston Asterisks

[hst420]

Stealing signs and relaying likely pitches and plays is quite significant. Interesting how it never was leaked until now.

[BigLeagueChew]

Their is two different contexts for cheating in baseball. One is inside the game one is outside of it.

Recording games has been around for years, around the time VHS existed and probably even before that. What they didn't have was screens setup behind dugouts or in them that you could use during the actual games.



Or in this case relay it before the pitch. I read somewhere their was a 10 second delay on the feeds but can't recall where.

Within the game here is some examples where it's acceptable to take signs:

-coaches can see catchers signs from their box, relays this sign to the bench or yells the players number for fastball, his last
name for something off speed.
-players anywhere on the field or dugout decoding the 3rd base coaches signals
-runner on 2nd base , relaying something to the hitter, sometimes you can pretend you're relaying something to the hitter when
you really have no idea whats coming , just to mess with the other teams pitcher.
-middle infielders relaying their catchers signs to their outfielders in some form, the benefit being the outfield will know the
likelihood of the hitter swing early or late by relaying fastball or offspeed somehow.
-coaches relaying signs from the dugout to the catcher, outfield and infield coaches
-coaches or catcher relaying 1st and 3rd play

Am probably missing a couple but other ways you can "cheat", playing shifts, playing deeper or shallower than usual hitters, stuff like that.

[Brinbe]

Should have vacated the title.

[I_Like_Dirt]

For the same reason that, when this initially came up, I said that MLB would come down hard on the Astros when you were expecting more of a slap on the wrist: the league represents the 30 teams, and something that benefits some teams over others is bad for the overall bottom line. The rubber ball benefits hitters, but it benefits all of the hitters in the league. Electronic sign-stealing benefited only those teams that had set up a relay system and co-opted the supposedly unaffiliated replay monitor. And yeah, you can argue that other teams should simply cheat better, but that's unlikely to ever be the league's position.

I never said baseball would do one thing or another. I simply suggested it would be a better course of action to take another direction with this stuff because it's going to get worse and may not actually get better. Other teams have a chance to punish the Astros so they're taking their opportunity. Great, and they'll take it out on other teams as they're caught - the Red Sox are up next. And who knows how many WS champs are going to have to fall before MLB decides to take a different approach? It's going to be the winners that are under the most scrutiny.

As for coming down hard, there sure seem to be a lot of people suggesting that this isn't coming down hard. You might disagree but that definitely is far from an agreed-upon thing. You're going to come back with a detailed explanation of the suspensions and such and why they're "serious" and I won't necessarily disagree but it's all in the eye of the beholder for this stuff. It also wouldn't be "cheating" better if MLB just let it go and didn't bother trying to regulate against it. It would be maximizing their advantages. Cheating is an arbitrary thing that the league gets to define. But yes, in my example of a first base coach, they could easily do it in the open with signals. They make a bunch of signals already. And if you caught them, you'd have to figure out how it was connected to relay information and such and that they weren't just getting signals in some other way.

The ball doesn't actually help everyone equally, either. Some teams have hitters and parks that are more conducive to the added few feet making a difference and nobody is arguing that teams should be altering the dimensions of their parks or changing how they go about scouting/roster building, at least not in public. My point isn't that baseball should or shouldn't define things in a certain way. It's that stuff like this really takes away from the game - not the "cheating" so much as the faux moralizing about said "cheating." Fans do like soap operas, though. And no, punishments won't stop this. Punishments aren't a factor into why people do or don't do stuff like this. It's why the Patriots just keep on keepin' on no matter how many times they get caught, for example. If you want to prevent this stuff, you need to create an environment where there isn't actually an advantage gained from doing so. My suggestion of opening things up does exactly that because there's no advantage if everyone is doing it already but there are definitely other potential ways to go about it - I just can't think of better ones offhand.

As for what MLB is doing, right now it's basically all a show for the fans who have clearly demonstrated that they care about this stuff. MLB really doesn't but they feel they have to take a stand for their fans and the other teams certainly aren't crying about the fallout on the Astros, which is just an added bonus for them.

[Schad]

I never said baseball would do one thing or another. I simply suggested it would be a better course of action to take another direction with this stuff because it's going to get worse and may not actually get better. Other teams have a chance to punish the Astros so they're taking their opportunity. Great, and they'll take it out on other teams as they're caught - the Red Sox are up next. And who knows how many WS champs are going to have to fall before MLB decides to take a different approach? It's going to be the winners that are under the most scrutiny.

It's going to be the teams that get caught. And yeah, former players have more of an incentive to rat out successful teams. But now that it's clear that teams will face a heavy price, the incentive to turn in a coach that you didn't like or a GM that released you is so bloody high.

But instead of wringing our hands about destroying champions, maybe they just could...not do this? Not doing it seems like a reasonable compromise.

As for coming down hard, there sure seem to be a lot of people suggesting that this isn't coming down hard.

That's because people here have crazy expectations, like vacating a title, a thing that has never happened and simply will never happen.

Yeah, seeing multiple top executives and coaches fired and suspended for a year or more, and essentially being on probation for the rest of their careers, is coming down hard. Yeah, one of the steepest draft pick penalties in the history of the league is coming down hard. Yeah, the largest financial penalty allowable under league rules is coming down hard. Just because no one has been ritualistically disemboweled on the steps of Cooperstown doesn't mean that the league went soft on them.

The ball doesn't actually help everyone equally, either. Some teams have hitters and parks that are more conducive to the added few feet making a difference and nobody is arguing that teams should be altering the dimensions of their parks or changing how they go about scouting/roster building, at least not in public. My point isn't that baseball should or shouldn't define things in a certain way. It's that stuff like this really takes away from the game - not the "cheating" so much as the faux moralizing about said "cheating."

It's not really moralizing, it's that allowing a free-for-all of teams using electronic means to shout pitch selection to hitters is idiotic. It takes a significant part of the game away while adding absolutely nothing of value...the only thing it would do is add more walks.

Fans do like soap operas, though. And no, punishments won't stop this. Punishments aren't a factor into why people do or don't do stuff like this. It's why the Patriots just keep on keepin' on no matter how many times they get caught, for example. If you want to prevent this stuff, you need to create an environment where there isn't actually an advantage gained from doing so. My suggestion of opening things up does exactly that because there's no advantage if everyone is doing it already but there are definitely other potential ways to go about it - I just can't think of better ones offhand.

The Patriots keep doing things because the punishment they have received doesn't exactly strike fear in their hearts. They've had a couple draft picks stripped, but NFL draft picks are historically less valuable than MLB ones, and the NFL has been loath to go after any individual in a big way.

Baseball's threatening to ban people for life. Manfred's been very aggressive with punishment for non-playing staff, far more so than any of his predecessors. There isn't an advantage to do so if, at any given point, dozens of people in the game have knowledge of your activities that can get you banned for life.

[Brinbe]

wow, this blew up in a crazy way today. the rabbit hole still has a ways to go too. this may be a historically gigantic cheating scandal in the end because we know multiple teams were doing this, not just houston.

really makes me sick that pro players would actually do this. and i'm so disgusted and disappointed in the commissioner and the MLB for being so inept at actually dealing with any of this. they have incredibly horrible leadership, especially manfred

[Fairview4Life]

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[SharoneWright]

https://www.nj.com/yankees/2020/01/mlb-rumors-carlos-beltrans-niece-says-astros-jose-altuve-alex-bregman-wore-devices-that-buzzed-as-part-of-sign-stealing-scandal.html

LOL. Houston has Altuve at 29M for 5 more years. Good luck.

[spykelee]

We gonna see a lifetime ban for Cora? Is that outta the realm?

Sent from my LG-H873 using RealGM mobile app

[HangTime]

Allow all the Astros minor leauge players be eligible for replacements for the 2020 draft.
So, When a team is on the clock, they can forfeit thier pick, and take a player from the Astros minor leauge system.

[Black Watch]

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[Fairview4Life]

Well yeah, all we have are comments on twitter and suspicious behaviour, you can’t really substantiate it now.

[Black Watch]

Well yeah, all we have are comments on twitter and suspicious behaviour, you can’t really substantiate it now.

Huh?

An actual investigation took place, dude. These videos and screenshots prove nothing.

MLB reviewed 76,000 emails with regard to the allegations against the Astros. The league completed 60 interviews. In their sleuthing, they looked into wearable devices and found no evidence.

[Black Watch]

On another note: We don't yet know the results of the investigation into Boston's cheating during the 2018 postseason, but they'll probably come out before the end of the month, otherwise it'd be too close to spring training and they don't want this following the sport into the season.

Keep in mind that MLB monitors the replay room during the postseason, so it's going to be interesting to find out how the Red Sox got around that. The press conference the owners held when Cora was let go featured one key phrase repeated over and over again: ‘We ask our fans to reserve judgment until Major League Baseball finishes their investigation.’ John Henry even said that it is ‘unfortunate that we cannot comment on the investigation.’

Unfortunate? Does that mean the owners (who have to be privy to some of what is being found in the ongoing investigation) expect a lesser punishment, when everybody is expecting the same or worse than Houston?

[SharoneWright]

Amazing that MLB found their preferred outcome on wearable devices.

I'm not gonna check my brain at the door.

And oh, I never realized what kind of an idiot Alex Bregman is.

[Black Watch]

This is MLB's full report, for those interested: MLB Full Report Link Here