RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #32 (Scottie Pippen)

[trex_8063]

Worth noting though that Havlicek not only was shooting a much higher volume some of those years but more importantly imo is that he turned up his scoring quite a bit in the playoffs and his efficiency. From the 67-74 playoffs(minus 70 & 71 because Boston missed them) he averaged over 26ppg on over 52% ts(including 27.1 on 53.5% during the 74 title run). That is impressive and more so given the era. So that to me is one of the deal breakers between them along with the intangibles. Because tbh, Pippen was seen as sort of mentally weak or flaky for much of his career. It wasn't a major thing but it was there while Hondo is a guy who took over as a primary scorer and leader and playmaker during that time and wins more rings. Plus I think Havlicek has him on longevity(11x all nba).

The higher volume is, to a large extent, a result of higher pace. The Celtics played at a very fast pace and the era Havlicek played in corresponds to the fastest paced era in NBA history. As for playoff efficiency, looking at their whole careers, the efficiency differential is still .526 to .498; as I said, Havlicek in the early part of his career was pretty inefficient.

Yeah, I'll chime in on the bolded (and the question in general).
Definitely can't use raw numbers with the difference in pace [though also can't use raw TS%]. Anyway...

Havlicek was never shooting at "much higher volume" [than Pippen], at least in terms of rate. The highest rate of scoring he EVER had was in '67, with an estimated 26.4 pts/100 possession (that was on +0.64% rTS, playing 32.1 mpg).
Pippen's got SIX seasons [the averaging more than 26.4 pts/100 (peaking at 30.0 in '94), averaging >36 mpg in all of them.

One can point out that higher shooting %'s [in Pippen's era] mean higher pts/100 [so Havlicek may be shooting larger volume without actually scoring larger volume]. And this is true, though not to the degree where it can be said he's shooting "much" higher volume:
In terms of true shooting attempts, his highest TSA/100 possessions was in '65, averaging 27.9 TSA/100. It's barely ahead of Pippen's highest ['94: 27.6]. And fwiw, that 27.9 in '65 came while shooting a fairly horrid -3.79% rTS.
Havlicek's 2nd-highest TSA/100 was in '66 [26.8], which came on an equally bad -3.64% rTS.
Also worth noting that in NEITHER of these years was he yet averaging even 31 mpg.
The only other seasons averaging >25 TSA/100 were the aforementioned '67, and '64 [averaging >25 TSA/100 (in 32.3 mpg, and @ -2.13% rTS)].
Note all his highest volume/rate shooting years were actually relatively early on, and while he was playing smaller minutes. All his HUGE minute seasons in the early-mid 70s were averaging <25 TSA/100.

Outside of '94, Pippen's got FOUR other seasons averaging >25 TSA/100, btw.

In short, there's no relevant difference in their shooting volume. There is, however, notable difference in their shooting efficiency. Below is Hondo's rTS% by year:

'63: -1.36
'64: -2.13
'65: -3.79
'66: -3.64
'67: +0.64
'68: -1.22
'69: -3.12
'70: +2.18
'71: +1.26
'72: +0.78
'73: +0.41
'74: -0.7
'75: +0.3
'76: +0.4
'77: -1.6
'78: -2.0

Only 7 of 16 are positive, only two of those by +1 or more, and peaking at only +2.2%.
By comparison, here are Pippen's by year:
'88: -4.9
'89: -1.3
'90: -0.9
'91: +2.7
'92: +2.4
'93: -2.6
'94: +1.6
'95: +1.6
'96: +1.9
'97: +1.8
'98: +0.9
'99: +1.9
'00: +1.0
'01: +2.3
'02: -2.3
'03: +0.1
'04: -6.8 (this was in a grand total of 412 minutes, btw)

^^^11 of 17 are positive, NINE of those by +1 or more, and peaking at +2.7%. Although his lowest marks are lower than Havlicek's, both of those were in the small-volume bookends of his career.


In terms of playmaking, off-the-cuff (based on what I've seen), I'd have given a very small edge to Pippen......I've just looked and was actually a little surprised that the gap in assist rate is so apparent:
Pippen's got a CAREER average of 7.8 ast/100.
Havlicek doesn't have a single season that matches that.......his career best is in '72 with an estimated 6.9 ast/100 (admittedly in an utterly monstrous league-leading 45.1 mpg).

Regarding pen's comment about Havlicek being turnover-prone.......I'm not entirely sure that's true [or at least to the degree that it's relevant in a comparison to Scottie Pippen].
I often like to turn to my own Modified TOV% for this, particular when looking at players of same/similar position and similar(ish) roles [which a Pippen/Havlicek comparison fits that to a T].
Pippen's career [rs] mTOV% is 9.17% (which is not all that good; not the worst I've got for wings, but slightly poor).

Havlicek's mTOV% in '78 [the one and only season of his career the NBA kept the stat officially] was 8.80%.
And in my game log project I'd logged about 5 games worth of Havlicek [ranging from '63 to '71], and in those his mTOV% is actually a very nice 6.90%.
I've seen other games of his from the 70s [that I haven't got around to logging], and my impression from those was NOT that he was turnover-prone, fwiw.
Take all of this for what it's worth; I suspect you may have formed a possibly misleading opinion based on a very limited sample, though.

Rebounding also has to be a solid edge to Pippen: his career reb/100 is 9.5: again a mark that Havlicek does not have a single season that matches. His career-best [by far, actually] was his rookie year, averaging an estimated 9.15 reb/100 (in just 27.5 mpg).

And defensively I'm comfortably siding with Pippen as better. I love Havlicek's motor, but he otherwise just did not have the physical tools that Pippen had (the length, strength, leaping ability) to be either as versatile or as effective as a help defender as Scottie was.


All these things kinda add up. I don't think Pippen was WAY better than Havlicek [**relative to their respective peers] in any aspect of the game......but I do think he was **at least as good, if not a little better at everything**.

**And this is relative to their professional peers.......which is relevant as I feel the competition in the 90s [and circa] was better than that of the 60s/70s.

And I mean, Pippen's got most of the legacy points that Havlicek has, too [in terms of rings, accolades, etc].


If not for Havlicek's superior longevity/durability and ability to play larger minutes, I don't think I'd even have him with a dozen places of Pippen. It's that consistency [and maybe a little the impression that he's a better teammate] that even brings him close.

At any rate, that's why I rank Pippen higher.

[Cavsfansince84]

In terms of playmaking, off-the-cuff (based on what I've seen), I'd have given a very small edge to Pippen......I've just looked and was actually a little surprised that the gap in assist rate is so apparent:
Pippen's got a CAREER average of 7.8 ast/100.
Havlicek doesn't have a single season that matches that.......his career best is in '72 with an estimated 6.9 ast/100 (admittedly in an utterly monstrous league-leading 45.1 mpg).

Regarding pen's comment about Havlicek being turnover-prone.......I'm not entirely sure that's true [or at least to the degree that it's relevant in a comparison to Scottie Pippen].
I often like to turn to my own Modified TOV% for this, particular when looking at players of same/similar position and similar(ish) roles [which a Pippen/Havlicek comparison fits that to a T].
Pippen's career [rs] mTOV% is 9.17% (which is not all that good; not the worst I've got for wings, but slightly poor).

Havlicek's mTOV% in '78 [the one and only season of his career the NBA kept the stat officially] was 8.80%.
And in my game log project I'd logged about 5 games worth of Havlicek [ranging from '63 to '71], and in those his mTOV% is actually a very nice 6.90%.
I've seen other games of his from the 70s [that I haven't got around to logging], and my impression from those was NOT that he was turnover-prone, fwiw.
Take all of this for what it's worth; I suspect you may have formed a possibly misleading opinion based on a very limited sample, though.

Rebounding also has to be a solid edge to Pippen: his career reb/100 is 9.5: again a mark that Havlicek does not have a single season that matches. His career-best [by far, actually] was his rookie year, averaging an estimated 9.15 reb/100 (in just 27.5 mpg).

And defensively I'm comfortably siding with Pippen as better. I love Havlicek's motor, but he otherwise just did not have the physical tools that Pippen had (the length, strength, leaping ability) to be either as versatile or as effective as a help defender as Scottie was.


All these things kinda add up. I don't think Pippen was WAY better than Havlicek [**relative to their respective peers] in any aspect of the game......but I do think he was **at least as good, if not a little better at everything**.

**And this is relative to their professional peers.......which is relevant as I feel the competition in the 90s [and circa] was better than that of the 60s/70s.

And I mean, Pippen's got most of the legacy points that Havlicek has, too [in terms of rings, accolades, etc].


If not for Havlicek's superior longevity/durability and ability to play larger minutes, I don't think I'd even have him with a dozen places of Pippen. It's that consistency [and maybe a little the impression that he's a better teammate] that even brings him close.

At any rate, that's why I rank Pippen higher.

My only issue with minimizing the volume shooting via pace/minutes is that I think that's part of the equation just as it would be when discussing someone like Manu. I also brought up how Hondo''s scoring/efficiency tended to go up in the playoffs when he was the primary scorer. Honestly I have them very close but I think Hondo's overall resume/capabilities are slightly more impressive. I don't think Pippen could have led teams in teh 70's the way that Hondo did and before anyone brings up 94 I think that was a bit of an outlier given you had Phil there with the triangle and whatnot while Hondo developed basically a whole new team around him with a new hc.

[Doctor MJ]

Below is Hondo's rTS% by year:

'63: -1.36
'64: -2.13
'65: -3.79
'66: -3.64
'67: +0.64
'68: -1.22
'69: -3.12
'70: +2.18
'71: +1.26
'72: +0.78
'73: +0.41
'74: -0.7
'75: +0.3
'76: +0.4
'77: -1.6
'78: -2.0

Only 7 of 16 are positive, only two of those by +1 or more, and peaking at only +2.2%.
By comparison, here are Pippen's by year:
'88: -4.9
'89: -1.3
'90: -0.9
'91: +2.7
'92: +2.4
'93: -2.6
'94: +1.6
'95: +1.6
'96: +1.9
'97: +1.8
'98: +0.9
'99: +1.9
'00: +1.0
'01: +2.3
'02: -2.3
'03: +0.1
'04: -6.8 (this was in a grand total of 412 minutes, btw)

^^^11 of 17 are positive, NINE of those by +1 or more, and peaking at +2.7%. Although his lowest marks are lower than Havlicek's, both of those were in the small-volume bookends of his career.

So good post just generally and appreciate you breaking down these numbers. But I've looked at Hondo's numbers like this too and I see a trend that to me is significant.

His rTS% went up at a very specific point: When Russell retired.

I'm a big Russell supporter, but something I've come to acknowledge is that the team was using a strategy that was oriented toward optimizing defense even if it clearly came with an offensive cost. For this reason, while I'll go to the mat arguing that Cousy is highly overrated due to people not realizing it was really just the defense that was winning games, I will say I tend to be pretty forgiving of the shooting efficiency of Russell's teammates.

And I specifically believe Havlicek's numbers here an example of how things could have been different with different strategy.

I look at later Hondo, and I see a guy who seems pretty comparable to Pippen despite having considerably more miles on him. Then I look backward at early Hondo and think "Ah, he probably could have been doing that the whole time, but you can't argue with the chips."

[trex_8063]

So good post just generally and appreciate you breaking down these numbers. But I've looked at Hondo's numbers like this too and I see a trend that to me is significant.

His rTS% went up at a very specific point: When Russell retired.

I'm a big Russell supporter, but something I've come to acknowledge is that the team was using a strategy that was oriented toward optimizing defense even if it clearly came with an offensive cost. For this reason, while I'll go to the mat arguing that Cousy is highly overrated due to people not realizing it was really just the defense that was winning games, I will say I tend to be pretty forgiving of the shooting efficiency of Russell's teammates.

And I specifically believe Havlicek's numbers here an example of how things could have been different with different strategy.

I look at later Hondo, and I see a guy who seems pretty comparable to Pippen despite having considerably more miles on him. Then I look backward at early Hondo and think "Ah, he probably could have been doing that the whole time, but you can't argue with the chips."

fwiw, I totally agree with the bolded portion......I hope you [and everyone else] remembers this when Bob Cousy comes into the foreground of the discussion.

[trex_8063]

Thru post #44:

Scottie Pippen - 3 (Clyde Frazier, Magic Is Magic, trex_8063)
Elgin Baylor - 3 (Dr Positivity, Hal14, penbeast0)
Kawhi Leonard - 2 (Dutchball97, ZeppelinPage)
John Havlicek - 2 (Cavsfansince84, DQuinn1575)
Reggie Miller - 1 (Doctor MJ)


OK, let's see if we can settle this one.....
ONly 11 votes, so just 6 required for a majority. We'll eliminate Miller first, which transfers a vote to Havlicek....

Pippen - 3
Baylor - 3
Havlicek - 3
Leonard - 2

So Kawhi is next up; this transfers one vote each to Baylor and Pippen....

Pippen - 4
Baylor - 4
Havlicek - 3

So Hondo is axed next, which transfers two votes to Pippen, one to Baylor....

Pippen - 6
Baylor - 5

So we have a narrow majority for Pip. I'll get the next up shortly......

Spoiler:

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[quote=”sansterre”].[/quote]

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[Joao Saraiva]

I still have a lot of interest in this project but just changed home today. Lots of things to do. When things calm down I will be back. I'd put Kawih here followed by Pippen.

[Cavsfansince84]

Below is Hondo's rTS% by year:

'63: -1.36
'64: -2.13
'65: -3.79
'66: -3.64
'67: +0.64
'68: -1.22
'69: -3.12
'70: +2.18
'71: +1.26
'72: +0.78
'73: +0.41
'74: -0.7
'75: +0.3
'76: +0.4
'77: -1.6
'78: -2.0

Only 7 of 16 are positive, only two of those by +1 or more, and peaking at only +2.2%.
By comparison, here are Pippen's by year:
'88: -4.9
'89: -1.3
'90: -0.9
'91: +2.7
'92: +2.4
'93: -2.6
'94: +1.6
'95: +1.6
'96: +1.9
'97: +1.8
'98: +0.9
'99: +1.9
'00: +1.0
'01: +2.3
'02: -2.3
'03: +0.1
'04: -6.8 (this was in a grand total of 412 minutes, btw)

^^^11 of 17 are positive, NINE of those by +1 or more, and peaking at +2.7%. Although his lowest marks are lower than Havlicek's, both of those were in the small-volume bookends of his career.

So good post just generally and appreciate you breaking down these numbers. But I've looked at Hondo's numbers like this too and I see a trend that to me is significant.

His rTS% went up at a very specific point: When Russell retired.

I'm a big Russell supporter, but something I've come to acknowledge is that the team was using a strategy that was oriented toward optimizing defense even if it clearly came with an offensive cost. For this reason, while I'll go to the mat arguing that Cousy is highly overrated due to people not realizing it was really just the defense that was winning games, I will say I tend to be pretty forgiving of the shooting efficiency of Russell's teammates.

And I specifically believe Havlicek's numbers here an example of how things could have been different with different strategy.

I look at later Hondo, and I see a guy who seems pretty comparable to Pippen despite having considerably more miles on him. Then I look backward at early Hondo and think "Ah, he probably could have been doing that the whole time, but you can't argue with the chips."

The other thing to consider is that I see Hondo's best/prime seasons as the 67-75 years and in those years his efficiency is fine so I have trouble penalizing him as much for what I see as his non prime years.

[Hal14]

Well I rank them Baylor, Hondo, Barry then Pippen. All 4 pretty close and all 4 are definitely top 35 players of all time IMO. Ironic that the guy I have ranked last out of the group, gets voted in first in this poll. Either I don't know what I'm talking about, or this is a case of recency bias - since Pippen came into the league roughly 20 years after Barry.