Ben Simmons Thread #2 (“Don’t make me contact Howard” Edition)

[jpatrick]

I think that deal is just about what it’ll be if a Wolves/Simmons trade takes place. Beasley, Beverly, McDaniels, and three FRPs. Maybe Bolmaro instead of McDaniels or a pick.

Maybe it’s Windhorst saying we don’t have the assets to acquire Simmons without Ant/KAT, but I’m becoming more pessimistic we acquire Simmons. The biggest thing giving me hope is that Rosas hasn’t acquired a starting level PF. I know some disagree, but if we’re don’t even make the play-in game, I think he’s out. It’s hard for me to believe he’d risk his career on Vanderbilt playing 35 minutes a night.

[shrink]

You're not much of a Simmons fan so it's going to be too rich for your blood. For people who are Simmons fans they realize that will be what it will cost to get it done. The two factions in this debate.

I am a Simmons fan and depending on offer, I want to walk from the potential deal. Look elsewhere.

Player I would watch closely is Isaac. Let him come back and prove his health. Yes, if healthy first part of season, he raises his trade value (considerably). But Magic on paper match up better with what Wolves have to offer. They are a non playoff team, not looking to win-now around a Embiid. The offer should not include McDaniels and would be matching expiring contract (Prince), plus probably same or less picks required to acquire Simmons.

Would you say you're MUCH a Simmons fan? I'm a bigger than most Simmons fan and of course there are prices too rich for my blood also. However, I think the offer proposed by MPLSWolves is probably the minimum it will take to get it done and I'd be willing to pay that price. Now that price wasn't just too rich for Baseline's blood it was far too rich for Baseline's blood so I think my belief that he isn't MUCH of a Simmons fan is reasonable.

I’ve let this slide many time, but I’m tired of hearing this argument, “if you won’t pay more, you’re not much of a fan.”

If you’re a fan of ham sandwiches, will you pay me $30 for my sandwich? If not, are you no longer a fan of ham sandwiches?

Everything has a price each person is willing to pay. That isn’t based on fandom, that’s based on perceived worth. If you perceive $30 is worth it, you may be a fan, but someone who will only pay $20 can also be a fan - maybe even a more reasonable fan. In fact, from my perspective, you’re a fan of overpaying to get Simmons, and should call it that.

[KGdaBom]

I am a Simmons fan and depending on offer, I want to walk from the potential deal. Look elsewhere.

Player I would watch closely is Isaac. Let him come back and prove his health. Yes, if healthy first part of season, he raises his trade value (considerably). But Magic on paper match up better with what Wolves have to offer. They are a non playoff team, not looking to win-now around a Embiid. The offer should not include McDaniels and would be matching expiring contract (Prince), plus probably same or less picks required to acquire Simmons.

Would you say you're MUCH a Simmons fan? I'm a bigger than most Simmons fan and of course there are prices too rich for my blood also. However, I think the offer proposed by MPLSWolves is probably the minimum it will take to get it done and I'd be willing to pay that price. Now that price wasn't just too rich for Baseline's blood it was far too rich for Baseline's blood so I think my belief that he isn't MUCH of a Simmons fan is reasonable.

I’ve let this slide many time, but I’m tired of hearing this argument, “if you won’t pay more, you’re not much of a fan.”

If you’re a fan of ham sandwiches, will you pay me $30 for my sandwich?

Everything has a price each person is willing to pay. That isn’t based on fandom, that’s based on perceived worth. If you perceive $30 is worth it, you may be a fan, but someone who will only pay $20 can also be a fan - even a more reasonable fan.

Shrink you haven't let anything slide. I specifically said there are prices that are too much for even the biggest fans of Simmons. I think I'm in the above average fan of Simmons category and I think you are in the least fans of Simmons category. Judging by your posts I get the impression that you believe he is damaged goods, extremely mentally weak and you almost wouldn't take him at any trade price because you just believe it's not worth paying the contract. Am I far off?

I think the price proposed by MPLSwolves is what it will take to get it done and possibly even more. It is very reasonable to conclude that if that price is FAR TOO RICH for Baseline's blood he isn't a comparatively big fan of Simmons.

[shrink]

You’ve been making this correlation between price and fandom for a few weeks now, and every time you have said it, it’s like fingernails on a blackboard to the economist in me.

Price is not fandom. Since you reiterated it in your response, re-read my post.

[KGdaBom]

You’ve been making this correlation between price and fandom for a few weeks now, and every time you have said it, it’s like fingernails on a blackboard to the economist in me.

Price is not fandom. Since you reiterated it in your response, re-read my post.

I read your post just fine and totally understood it.
The price a person is willing to pay is very related to how good they believe the product to be. I for example don't like onions so any food prepared with onions won't be worth even a nickel to me. Somebody who loves onions would probably pay $20 or more for a 16oz ribeye steak with sauteed onions. Price and fandom are related.

[shrink]

I’m a big Jaden McDaniels fan. I wouldn’t pay him $40 mil a year yet if legal.

That doesn’t mean I’m less of a fan than a maniac who would.

[KGdaBom]

I’m a big Jaden McDaniels fan. I wouldn’t pay him $40 mil a year yet if legal.

That doesn’t mean I’m less of a fan than a maniac who would.

But if you thought McDaniels was a better player than Kevin Durant you would pay him $40 million if that is what it took for us to keep him.
So please stop making ridiculous analogies. When I say fan I'm using it in the form of fan of his skills. If you're a big enough fan of someone's skills you are willing to pay more than someone who is not a big fan of a players skills.

[Baseline81]

Shrink you haven't let anything slide. I specifically said there are prices that are too much for even the biggest fans. I think the price proposed by MPLSwolves is what it will take to get it done and possibly even more. It is very reasonable to conclude that if that price is FAR TOO RICH for Baseline's blood he isn't a comparatively big fan of Simmons.

Hate to disappoint, but I am a fan of Simmons. Like others, I can see why he'd mesh well with Towns. In fact, when the Wolves held the 2020 first overall pick, I was a proponent of trading it for such a player.

But just as shrink pointed out, there is a price I'm unwilling to pay. And clearly, the league, as of this moment, feels the same. What team has been willing to deal three first round picks for Simmons?

[KGdaBom]

Shrink you haven't let anything slide. I specifically said there are prices that are too much for even the biggest fans. I think the price proposed by MPLSwolves is what it will take to get it done and possibly even more. It is very reasonable to conclude that if that price is FAR TOO RICH for Baseline's blood he isn't a comparatively big fan of Simmons.

Hate to disappoint, but I am a fan of Simmons. Like others, I can see why he'd mesh well with Towns. In fact, when the Wolves held the 2020 first overall pick, I was a proponent for trading it for such a player.

But just as shrink pointed out, there is a price I'm unwilling to pay. And clearly, the league, as of this moment, feels the same. What team have you read or heard been willing to deal three first round picks for Simmons?

You said far too rich for your blood. Not too rich. So if it's FAR TOO MUCH, I have to believe you wouldn't offer more than one FRP in that deal. You are not comparatively a big fan of Simmons game and that's OK. Shrink seems to think based on his salary he is a liability and not an asset.

Don't try to play it both ways.

As for offers nobody knows what offers have been made so that's a question that can't be answered by anybody other than Mr. Morey.

[jpatrick]

I think KG is right. It’s not a fan or not a fan. It’s how big of a fan you are. Maybe fan is the wrong word, it’s how much of an impact you think he’ll make.

I’m a huge fan. I’m a sucker for connective players like him that make others better with low usage. I was also probably LaMelos biggest fan predraft. I would easily make that proposed trade with three picks.

Conversely, I’m also a fan of Myles Turner. Doesn’t mean I’d offer anything similar to that package for him.

[shrink]

I’m a big Jaden McDaniels fan. I wouldn’t pay him $40 mil a year yet if legal.

That doesn’t mean I’m less of a fan than a maniac who would.

But if you thought McDaniels was a better player than Kevin Durant you would pay him $40 million if that is what it took for us to keep him.
So please stop making ridiculous analogies. When I say fan I'm using it in the form of fan of his skills. If you're a big enough fan of someone's skills you are willing to pay more than someone who is not a big fan of a players skills.

You are still not getting it.

So, using your words, I would not be a big enough fan of McDaniels skills, as the maniac who would pay $40?

Is that fandom, or is that reasonableness?

[shrink]

The other issue at play in these high MIN poster offers is the idea that multiple other teams are offering high prices. Some people are so scared about getting outbid for Simmons that they’ll sell the farm, and mortgage the next farm too.

Why are these people so sure that there are these high offers out there for him? We don’t know much of anything since Morey heard Simmons refuses to play, and then Dame is also staying put. Do we have any evidence what any of these other offers are?

Simmons does not plan to play another game in PHI. Yes, Morey can just hold onto him, for four years if he wants. But he also wants the Sixers to compete, and if he doesn’t trade him for something, he’s put a $32 mil hole in his team’s production. If PHI is 8-10 going into December, how happy are PHI fans going to be? How happy will Embiid be?

[SO_MONEY]

The other issue at play in these high MIN poster offers is the idea that multiple other teams are offering high prices. Some people are so scared about getting outbid for Simmons that they’ll sell the farm, and mortgage the next farm too.

Why are these people so sure that there are these high offers out there for him? We don’t know much of anything since Morey heard Simmons refuses to play, and then Dame is also staying put. Do we have any evidence what any of these other offers are?

Simmons does not plan to play another game in PHI. Yes, Morey can just hold onto him, for four years if he wants. But he also wants the Sixers to compete, and if he doesn’t trade him for something, he’s put a $32 mil hole in his team’s production. If PHI is 8-10 going into December, how happy are PHI fans going to be? How happy will Embiid be?

I put out the question of what teams and offers from them exist in response to these really weird higher offers. No one would answer...

I think their offers are more a reflection of their personal perception of Simmons instead of the market.

[KGdaBom]

I’m a big Jaden McDaniels fan. I wouldn’t pay him $40 mil a year yet if legal.

That doesn’t mean I’m less of a fan than a maniac who would.

But if you thought McDaniels was a better player than Kevin Durant you would pay him $40 million if that is what it took for us to keep him.
So please stop making ridiculous analogies. When I say fan I'm using it in the form of fan of his skills. If you're a big enough fan of someone's skills you are willing to pay more than someone who is not a big fan of a players skills.

You are still not getting it.

So, using your words, I would not be a big enough fan of McDaniels skills, as the maniac who would pay $40?

Is that fandom, or is that reasonableness?

You would not be a big enough fan of McDaniel's skills. If you thought he was better than Durant and $40 million is what it took to keep him you would be in favor of it. In this scenario where he is better than Durant it wouldn't take a maniac to offer him $40 million a year. A quite reasonable person would.

[KGdaBom]

The other issue at play in these high MIN poster offers is the idea that multiple other teams are offering high prices. Some people are so scared about getting outbid for Simmons that they’ll sell the farm, and mortgage the next farm too.

Why are these people so sure that there are these high offers out there for him? We don’t know much of anything since Morey heard Simmons refuses to play, and then Dame is also staying put. Do we have any evidence what any of these other offers are?

Simmons does not plan to play another game in PHI. Yes, Morey can just hold onto him, for four years if he wants. But he also wants the Sixers to compete, and if he doesn’t trade him for something, he’s put a $32 mil hole in his team’s production. If PHI is 8-10 going into December, how happy are PHI fans going to be? How happy will Embiid be?

IMO there are not many high offers being proposed. I have found a couple to be TOO RICH FOR MY BLOOD. Since you feel he is a liability rather than an asset based on his contract you will look at almost any proposed offer as too much. Once again it all comes down to how one views his skills.

[Klomp]

Can we stop with the "how big a fan are you" arguments? They clearly lead nowhere. You both said your piece. Move on.

[KGdaBom]

Can we stop with the "how big a fan are you" arguments? They clearly lead nowhere. You both said your piece. Move on.

Klomp I have clarified that very well. I'm talking about what the person thinks about the players skills. Not how much of a rah rah sis boom bah fan that person is.
How much a person is willing to offer for player X should be directly correlated to how good player X is perceived by that person to be.

[Klomp]

Can we stop with the "how big a fan are you" arguments? They clearly lead nowhere. You both said your piece. Move on.

Klomp I have clarified that very well. I'm talking about what the person thinks about the players skills. Not how much of a rah rah sis boom bah fan that person is.

Right but leave out the "you don't value him" arguments. Try to focus more on what you're arguing over who you're arguing with. Let's try to keep these threads open.

[Merc_Porto]

I think officially Philly refused to trade Simmons for Brogdon and a 1st or something like that. They are also very negative about getting McCollum for Ben and in both cases, especially the CJ I totally get why.
So, why they would accept an offer where the best asset would be McDaniels?

If that was the price, even with DLO in the mix a deal would have been made a long time ago.

Again, the key here is really to find that 3rd team where to send McDaniels (prospect) + picks and probably dump DLO (match salaries) to get that star to join Embiid in Philly.

Toronto would have been perfect but then Lowry decided to go to Miami.

[KGdaBom]

Can we stop with the "how big a fan are you" arguments? They clearly lead nowhere. You both said your piece. Move on.

Klomp I have clarified that very well. I'm talking about what the person thinks about the players skills. Not how much of a rah rah sis boom bah fan that person is.

Right but leave out the "you don't value him" arguments. Try to focus more on what you're arguing over who you're arguing with. Let's try to keep these threads open.

If a person doesn't appreciate the players skills enough to pay for them they don't value him very much. That is simply logical. It has nothing to do with WHO I'm discussing the player with. It has to do with what we're discussing. Hopefully we're not arguing.