Killian Hayes is Really...Bad

[shangrila]

I always thought it was bizarre that he shot so much better off of pull ups than spot ups.

[johanliebert]

Love how 90% of you haven't really watched his game much or don't really know basketball but are so opiniated on him. Has it been pretty? Of course not but he's pretty much gotten off to the same start Lonzo Ball had, without a pretty serious hip injury that kept him out significant amount of time in his rookie season and a head coach that keeps him on a very tight string. Lonzo Ball got the opportunity to play through his mistakes and got the confidence from his coach to still be aggressive....meanwhile, Killian is fighting for minutes over Cory freaking Joseph. It also sucks that Killian is really a PnR guard at this point in his career but his center that he plays with is undersized, average athlete, and literally can't set a proper pick to save his life and is a very little pop threat at this point. A ton of great passes that Killian has made to open teammates have come up empty because they're shooting very poorly as well.

The good- he's a really good defender for his age (had 5 steals last night) and will continue to improve on that end. With his size, he should be a Lonzo Ball type defender with more experience. His catch & shoot isn't that bad either, he looks good when he's balanced. Looking at his free throw percentage, there is reason to believe with more work he'll improve as a better catch & shooter.
Last year he was really left dominant but he's able to get anywhere he wants on the floor early on, so that's an improvement. The offense will come when he's next to Cade and his teammates start hitting shots....it'll open the floor up. It'll also be a huge + if the team acquires a legit lob threat at some point in the future. It'll really help both Killian and Cade's game.

He's not James Harden or anything like that like we heard during the draft but if he becomes Lonzo Ball 2.0 we'll have a very nice fit next to Cade & Bey.

You said that as if Corey Joseph’s a scrub lol. Lonzo’s a much better athlete he’ll never defend like him.

[bstein14]

Piston first rounders

Year, Round, Pick
2020 1 7 Killian Hayes France ratiopharm Ulm (Germany)
2020 1 16 Isaiah Stewart United States Washington
2019 1 15 Sekou Doumbouya France Limoges CSP
2017 1 12 Luke Kennard United States Duke
2016 1 18 Henry Ellenson United States Marquette
2015 1 8 Stanley Johnson United States Arizona
2013 1 8 Kentavious Caldwell-Pope United States Georgia
2012 1 9 Andre Drummond United States Connecticut
2011 1 8 Brandon Knight United States Kentucky
2010 1 7 Greg Monroe United States Georgetown
2009 1 15 Austin Daye United States Gonzaga
2008 1 29 D. J. White United States Indiana
2007 1 15 Rodney Stuckey United States Eastern Washington
2007 1 27 Arron Afflalo United States UCLA
2005 1 26 Jason Maxiell United States Cincinnati
2003 1 2 Darko Miličić Serbia and Montenegro Hemofarm Vršac (Serbia and Montenegro and Adriatic League)
2003 1 25 Carlos Delfino Argentina Skipper Bologna (Italy)
2002 1 23 Tayshaun Prince United States Kentucky
2001 1 9 Rodney White United States Charlotte
2000 1 14 Mateen Cleaves United States Michigan State
1998 1 11 Bonzi Wells United States Ball State
1997 1 19 Scot Pollard United States Kansas
1996 1 26 Jerome Williams United States Georgetown
1995 1 18 Theo Ratliff United States Wyoming
1995 1 19 Randolph Childress United States Wake Forest
1994 1 3 Grant Hill United States Duke
1993 1 10 Lindsey Hunter United States Jackson State
1993 1 11 Allan Houston United States Tennessee
1992 1 19 Don MacLean United States UCLA

Oh … dear

Holy cow that’s a quarter century of brutally poor drafting.

But amazingly they've won a championship and had 6 straight conferences finals appearances from 2003 to 2008 during that stretch. Just goes to show you that Joe Dumars had one of the most impressive GM jobs of all time to sign Ben Wallace as a FA, draft Tayshaun Prince, Sign Billups to an MLE deal as a free agent, trade Stackhouse for Richard Hamilton, trade 2 future firsts for Sheed, and fill the the bench with the right role players.

[BlazersBroncos]

I loved his feel in the PNR coming out. Not sure what has happened, but he certainly looks like a bad player so far.

The guy he really reminds me of is Frank. Another overrated athlete that had elite size for a PG.

[chilluminati]

Oh … dear

Holy cow that’s a quarter century of brutally poor drafting.

But amazingly they've won a championship and had 6 straight conferences finals appearances from 2003 to 2008 during that stretch. Just goes to show you that Joe Dumars had one of the most impressive GM jobs of all time to sign Ben Wallace as a FA, draft Tayshaun Prince, Sign Billups to an MLE deal as a free agent, trade Stackhouse for Richard Hamilton, trade 2 future firsts for Sheed, and fill the the bench with the right role players.

Yessir! Joe D did a great job of giving Ben Wallace a chance, and trading Stack for Rip. We sign Chauncey, and make the trade for Sheed. It all happened within a 2-3 year span of rapid success where the dominos all fell in the right directions.

Outside of this ... it hasn't been pretty for Joe. His signings after the championship were notoriously poor, but the teams drafting was even worse. The inability to accept a full rebuild is why our draft picks have been historically buns.

If you look at all of our draft picks by position from 2006 on up, they were clearly trying to emulate their championship squad. Tayshaun was our SF? Draft Austin Daye. Chauncey is our PG? Get another big body playmaker like Stuckey. Every big we draft? undersized "work horse" type players like Ben (they NEVER turn out like him though) or big white dudes who shoot 3's like Okur. It really felt like they just never wanted to embrace a full rebuild, and kept chasing the mold of our 2004 team.

And due to not being able to accept a full rebuild, they squandered literally every bit of potential out of our draft picks. People tend to forget that we had a young Dinwiddie and Middleton, but unfortunately we've been a developmental hellscape, damning most young players careers that end up in Detroit.

The Troy Weaver era so far has given us some hope though. The full rebuild has happened and is still in the process. We finally landed a #1 pick and got a bit of hope in Cade, just by finally accepting a rebuild.

[bwgood77]

Piston first rounders

Year, Round, Pick
2020 1 7 Killian Hayes France ratiopharm Ulm (Germany)
2020 1 16 Isaiah Stewart United States Washington
2019 1 15 Sekou Doumbouya France Limoges CSP
2017 1 12 Luke Kennard United States Duke
2016 1 18 Henry Ellenson United States Marquette
2015 1 8 Stanley Johnson United States Arizona
2013 1 8 Kentavious Caldwell-Pope United States Georgia
2012 1 9 Andre Drummond United States Connecticut
2011 1 8 Brandon Knight United States Kentucky
2010 1 7 Greg Monroe United States Georgetown
2009 1 15 Austin Daye United States Gonzaga
2008 1 29 D. J. White United States Indiana
2007 1 15 Rodney Stuckey United States Eastern Washington
2007 1 27 Arron Afflalo United States UCLA
2005 1 26 Jason Maxiell United States Cincinnati
2003 1 2 Darko Miličić Serbia and Montenegro Hemofarm Vršac (Serbia and Montenegro and Adriatic League)
2003 1 25 Carlos Delfino Argentina Skipper Bologna (Italy)
2002 1 23 Tayshaun Prince United States Kentucky
2001 1 9 Rodney White United States Charlotte
2000 1 14 Mateen Cleaves United States Michigan State
1998 1 11 Bonzi Wells United States Ball State
1997 1 19 Scot Pollard United States Kansas
1996 1 26 Jerome Williams United States Georgetown
1995 1 18 Theo Ratliff United States Wyoming
1995 1 19 Randolph Childress United States Wake Forest
1994 1 3 Grant Hill United States Duke
1993 1 10 Lindsey Hunter United States Jackson State
1993 1 11 Allan Houston United States Tennessee
1992 1 19 Don MacLean United States UCLA

So the Pistons haven't drafted an star player since Grant Hill almost 30 years ago?

This is an near unbreakable curse placed on the prospects of Cade.

Saddiq Bey looked good last year. Didn't Stewart as well? Not sure if those were first rounders but at least one probably was.

[meekrab]

That drafted Khris Middleton and gave him away to Milwaukee for nothing.

They traded him for Brandon Jennings who they traded for Tobias Harris who they traded for Blake Griffin who made an all star team for the Pistons. But yeah that initial trade looks terrible.

[bwgood77]

They drafted Khris Middleton and gave him away to Milwaukee for nothing.

Wasn't he kind of just a throw in to the HUGE top 8 player swap of Brandon Jennings and Brandon Knight?

[Bologna Smasher]

I think he'll be fine once he gets more comfortable and gets a more consistent role. Do think the Pistons should be bringing him off the bench right now, but that's going to interfere with the tank. His defense is already better than it was projected to be, so that's a plus.

The Pistons drafted him knowing he was going to be a big time project, so I don't think they're giving up on him yet. Hard telling if he'll ever reach initial expectations, but he should start taking a look at someone like Marcus Smart, who he can pattern his game off of right now if he puts in the work.

[bstein14]

They drafted Khris Middleton and gave him away to Milwaukee for nothing.

Wasn't he kind of just a throw in to the HUGE top 8 player swap of Brandon Jennings and Brandon Knight?

Yeah, but Jennings was a free agent and Detroit had cap space to sign him outright. Maybe he was the cherry to get Milwaukee to take Knight but in reality Middleton likely wasn't a reason the trade would or wouldn't happen.

[celticfan42487]

That's too bad, I really loved him as a prospect and thought he could be very valuable.

Everyone is looking for someone that can do the PG role well enough but be big enough to not get endlessly targeted in pick and roll when the playoffs start and teams start playing for real (slash abusing a weakness endlessly every single play).

[floppymoose]

If have good team defense, having the other team trying to target one player in pnr doesnt work.

Never make your offense predictable against a good defense.

[chilluminati]

I do hope that he stays healthy and gets better though, and hopefully we send him down to the G-League once we've figured out that Killian and Cade probably won't work. But by god they're trying to make this experiment work though ...

[basketballRob]

He needs to keep learning and playing.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM Forums mobile app

[DTP]

Love how 90% of you haven't really watched his game much or don't really know basketball but are so opiniated on him. Has it been pretty? Of course not but he's pretty much gotten off to the same start Lonzo Ball had, without a pretty serious hip injury that kept him out significant amount of time in his rookie season and a head coach that keeps him on a very tight string. Lonzo Ball got the opportunity to play through his mistakes and got the confidence from his coach to still be aggressive....meanwhile, Killian is fighting for minutes over Cory freaking Joseph. It also sucks that Killian is really a PnR guard at this point in his career but his center that he plays with is undersized, average athlete, and literally can't set a proper pick to save his life and is a very little pop threat at this point. A ton of great passes that Killian has made to open teammates have come up empty because they're shooting very poorly as well.

The good- he's a really good defender for his age (had 5 steals last night) and will continue to improve on that end. With his size, he should be a Lonzo Ball type defender with more experience. His catch & shoot isn't that bad either, he looks good when he's balanced. Looking at his free throw percentage, there is reason to believe with more work he'll improve as a better catch & shooter.
Last year he was really left dominant but he's able to get anywhere he wants on the floor early on, so that's an improvement. The offense will come when he's next to Cade and his teammates start hitting shots....it'll open the floor up. It'll also be a huge + if the team acquires a legit lob threat at some point in the future. It'll really help both Killian and Cade's game.

He's not James Harden or anything like that like we heard during the draft but if he becomes Lonzo Ball 2.0 we'll have a very nice fit next to Cade & Bey.

You said that as if Corey Joseph’s a scrub lol. Lonzo’s a much better athlete he’ll never defend like him.

Lakers played a bad rookie Lonzo Ball over the likes of Lou Williams and Jordan Clarkson. Compared to them, Joseph is a scrub but I'm not trying to be disrespectful. Joseph is 30 years old and his game isn't necessarily fun to watch.....there's no reason that I would want to watch him getting minutes over Hayes for this team. Joseph has also had a pretty bad start to the season but has a much longer leash than Killian despite.

Lonzo may be a better athlete, I'll agree but Killian is already pretty damn good. His biggest knock defensively is fighting over screens.

[Young Stapler]

Piston first rounders

Year, Round, Pick
2020 1 7 Killian Hayes France ratiopharm Ulm (Germany)
2020 1 16 Isaiah Stewart United States Washington
2019 1 15 Sekou Doumbouya France Limoges CSP
2017 1 12 Luke Kennard United States Duke
2016 1 18 Henry Ellenson United States Marquette
2015 1 8 Stanley Johnson United States Arizona
2013 1 8 Kentavious Caldwell-Pope United States Georgia
2012 1 9 Andre Drummond United States Connecticut
2011 1 8 Brandon Knight United States Kentucky
2010 1 7 Greg Monroe United States Georgetown
2009 1 15 Austin Daye United States Gonzaga
2008 1 29 D. J. White United States Indiana
2007 1 15 Rodney Stuckey United States Eastern Washington
2007 1 27 Arron Afflalo United States UCLA
2005 1 26 Jason Maxiell United States Cincinnati
2003 1 2 Darko Miličić Serbia and Montenegro Hemofarm Vršac (Serbia and Montenegro and Adriatic League)
2003 1 25 Carlos Delfino Argentina Skipper Bologna (Italy)
2002 1 23 Tayshaun Prince United States Kentucky
2001 1 9 Rodney White United States Charlotte
2000 1 14 Mateen Cleaves United States Michigan State
1998 1 11 Bonzi Wells United States Ball State
1997 1 19 Scot Pollard United States Kansas
1996 1 26 Jerome Williams United States Georgetown
1995 1 18 Theo Ratliff United States Wyoming
1995 1 19 Randolph Childress United States Wake Forest
1994 1 3 Grant Hill United States Duke
1993 1 10 Lindsey Hunter United States Jackson State
1993 1 11 Allan Houston United States Tennessee
1992 1 19 Don MacLean United States UCLA

Damn I forgot about Mateen Cleaves yeah that clearly didnt work out

[Snakebites]

Piston first rounders

Year, Round, Pick
2020 1 7 Killian Hayes France ratiopharm Ulm (Germany)
2020 1 16 Isaiah Stewart United States Washington
2019 1 15 Sekou Doumbouya France Limoges CSP
2017 1 12 Luke Kennard United States Duke
2016 1 18 Henry Ellenson United States Marquette
2015 1 8 Stanley Johnson United States Arizona
2013 1 8 Kentavious Caldwell-Pope United States Georgia
2012 1 9 Andre Drummond United States Connecticut
2011 1 8 Brandon Knight United States Kentucky
2010 1 7 Greg Monroe United States Georgetown
2009 1 15 Austin Daye United States Gonzaga
2008 1 29 D. J. White United States Indiana
2007 1 15 Rodney Stuckey United States Eastern Washington
2007 1 27 Arron Afflalo United States UCLA
2005 1 26 Jason Maxiell United States Cincinnati
2003 1 2 Darko Miličić Serbia and Montenegro Hemofarm Vršac (Serbia and Montenegro and Adriatic League)
2003 1 25 Carlos Delfino Argentina Skipper Bologna (Italy)
2002 1 23 Tayshaun Prince United States Kentucky
2001 1 9 Rodney White United States Charlotte
2000 1 14 Mateen Cleaves United States Michigan State
1998 1 11 Bonzi Wells United States Ball State
1997 1 19 Scot Pollard United States Kansas
1996 1 26 Jerome Williams United States Georgetown
1995 1 18 Theo Ratliff United States Wyoming
1995 1 19 Randolph Childress United States Wake Forest
1994 1 3 Grant Hill United States Duke
1993 1 10 Lindsey Hunter United States Jackson State
1993 1 11 Allan Houston United States Tennessee
1992 1 19 Don MacLean United States UCLA

So the Pistons haven't drafted an star player since Grant Hill almost 30 years ago?

This is an near unbreakable curse placed on the prospects of Cade.

Saddiq Bey looked good last year. Didn't Stewart as well? Not sure if those were first rounders but at least one probably was.

If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times. The BIGGEST issue with the Pistons is our failure to add value to our team through the draft. The bad signings, dubious trades, poor cap management, it's all a problem, but it could be overcome if we drafted better.

In the last 30 years we've drafted TWO players who became all stars with the team. One of them was Grant Hill. The other was...sigh, Andre Drummond. You might have even forgotten he made an All Star team. I certainly wouldn't blame you.

And yes, Bey and Stewart look nice this year, both potential starters. But the main event from last year (Hayes) looks like a total flop.

[whitehops]

i've said much about killian hayes on the pistons forum but i haven't talked about him here so...

i know we're a rebuilding team but i would be willing to bet actual money that there isn't a single player in the league more undeserving of the minutes they get. i understand young players on growing teams get a little more leeway but hayes has at no point shown potential of being an average NBA player, let alone a good one. he puts absolutely zero pressure on opposing defenses because he has no go-to move to score and is unable to get to the rim (and can't finish the odd time he gets there). after being borderline the most inefficient rotation player in the league last season he's so far been the second least efficient player in the league this season.

what's worse is that he has confidence issues, so the team (both coach and vets) consistently have to keep his head up. this makes it difficult because sending him to the g league would be best so he can (hopefully) start to see some success but the demotion might break him.

i don't know what the outcome will be but i'm sure it won't be positive. hayes should 100% not be seeing NBA minutes right now and i wonder how long the other players are going to put up with it. he's getting more minutes than isaiah stewart ffs and we're already super thin at center.

[bstein14]

i've said much about killian hayes on the pistons forum but i haven't talked about him here so...

i know we're a rebuilding team but i would be willing to bet actual money that there isn't a single player in the league more undeserving of the minutes they get. i understand young players on growing teams get a little more leeway but hayes has at no point shown potential of being an average NBA player, let alone a good one. he puts absolutely zero pressure on opposing defenses because he has no go-to move to score and is unable to get to the rim (and can't finish the odd time he gets there). after being borderline the most inefficient rotation player in the league last season he's so far been the second least efficient player in the league this season.

what's worse is that he has confidence issues, so the team (both coach and vets) consistently have to keep his head up. this makes it difficult because sending him to the g league would be best so he can (hopefully) start to see some success but the demotion might break him.

i don't know what the outcome will be but i'm sure it won't be positive. hayes should 100% not be seeing NBA minutes right now and i wonder how long the other players are going to put up with it. he's getting more minutes than isaiah stewart ffs and we're already super thin at center.

Very true about not deserving the minutes and because he was going against starters day one and not anywhere ready he very much seems to get down on himself. Sure he's a nice guy but he doesn't seem to have what it takes to be an NBA player. It also almost feels like if he gets sent down you send him with Garza and Pickett so he doesn't feel singled out.

If he wasn't a Weaver draft pick I think he wouldn't have gotten his 3rd year option picked up. He isn't going to be worth anything close to $5.5 million next season. Probably the biggest downside is that his lack of offense is going to make things harder on Cade.... and all the minutes he is getting is preventing Saben Lee from getting time he needs to develop his game and Saben is clearly the more likely NBA player in 2 to 3 years from now.

[JLiv]

Hopefully this thread will be bump worthy in a couple of years. I give it a 34% chance. Killian has definitely struggled on offense in most of his 30ish games, but we all knew the guy was a raw talent. Also had an injury that could be career ending. The deck was stacked against him, but now it’s his job the turn the tables. I’m comfortable watching him play 25+ minutes a night for the rest of the season before my grace ends.