Hoopshype's "20 Greatest PFs ever" list

[maxpower8888]

I think both Dirk and Charles Barkley should be above KG, and also Chris Bosh got snubbed.

[timO]

Green? wtf?

Should be higher, I agree.

sure a career 9-7-5 scrub legit top 3

[Scalabrine]

They have Pettit and McHale way too low. Dirk was nowhere near as good as them.

I mean just off longevity alone Dirk is WAY better, but even his per possession numbers are better pretty much across the board!

[NZB2323]

Tim Duncan played 63% of his career minutes at center and only 36% of his minutes at power forward. Pau Gasol played 69% of his minutes at center, and only 31% at power forward. Why do these guys count as power forwards and not centers?

[Jadoogar]

Green? wtf?

People seriously underrate Draymond. Look at what he's doing with GSW's defense right now.
He basically created the small ball center role.

[-Sammy-]

I heard Kevin Love is better than 99% of these guys

Yeah, I Redick somewhere, too.

[Eric Bieniemy]

Tim Duncan played 63% of his career minutes at center and only 36% of his minutes at power forward. Pau Gasol played 69% of his minutes at center, and only 31% at power forward. Why do these guys count as power forwards and not centers?

Because people are single-minded.

Coach Pop even acknowledged that Duncan has ALWAYS been a center.

It seems the same positional discrepancy has occurred with Larry Bird, who, to me, without verifying, appeared to have played mostly at PF throughout his career.

[NZB2323]

They have Pettit and McHale way too low. Dirk was nowhere near as good as them.

Dirk: 1 MVP, 1 Finals MVP, 14x all-star, 4x all-NBA 1st team, 5x all-NBA 2nd team, 6th all time in points, 27th all time in rebounds.

McHale: 0 MVPs, 0 Finals MVPs, 7x all-star, 1x all-NBA 1st team, 0x all-NBA 2nd team, 93rd all time in points, 114th all time in rebounds.

Yes, McHale has more defensive teams and more championships, but Dirk never played with a player nearly as good as Larry Bird, or had a supporting cast as good as McHale and Bird had, and all the other categories mean more than defensive teams.

[AussieBuck]

Larry Bird should be one.

Yeah swap him in for Timmy and move Malone down a few rungs and it looks good.

[-Sammy-]

Tim Duncan played 63% of his career minutes at center and only 36% of his minutes at power forward. Pau Gasol played 69% of his minutes at center, and only 31% at power forward. Why do these guys count as power forwards and not centers?

It's helpful to consider that in the years Duncan was 'more' of a center than a PF, it was because he primarily played as a forward on offense and a center on defense. That skews those BB-Ref percentages greatly.

For his career, his FG attempts split pretty evenly among shots at the rim (>three feet), the paint (3-10 feet), and ranged shots (10-23 feet). That kind of spread and versatility is characteristic of a PF.

As a defender, he spent most of his time under and near the basket; he played out more in his younger years, when he had the springy legs and lateral speed to do so, but his primary duties were at/near the basket.

In my opinion, it's better to think of his positioning this way: for the first nine years of his career, he was a PF who switched to the center role sometimes on D; for the last 10, he was more of a two-way center.

But even if we only take the first nine years of his career under consideration, his resume (four rings, three FVMPs, two MVPs) still dwarfs any other power forwards, so he still gets the top spot.

[TheLand13]

Are they hoping Bosh responds, since hes retired and he has replied to disrespectful stuff before?

I mean, how else do you explain putting a guy like Bobby Jones, who averaged 14 and 9 in his peak, and 12 and 6 over his career?

If you want to pay homage to the people of the past, do so. But don't make a mockery of it in hopes for clicks (Hoopshype, not OP).

Bobby Jones was one of the greatest defenders at the PF of all time.

[NZB2323]

Tim Duncan played 63% of his career minutes at center and only 36% of his minutes at power forward. Pau Gasol played 69% of his minutes at center, and only 31% at power forward. Why do these guys count as power forwards and not centers?

Because people are single-minded.

Coach Pop even acknowledged that Duncan has ALWAYS been a center.

It seems the same positional discrepancy has occurred with Larry Bird, who, to me, without verifying, appeared to have played mostly at PF throughout his career.

Play-by-Play data for the NBA started in the 96-97 season, so we don't have stats on how many minutes Bird played at each position. I believe he mainly played Small Forward because they had McHale at Power Forward and Robert Parish at Center, but if Bird played today I believe he would absolutely be a 3-point shooting/playmaking 4.

But if we're going to count player who played some time at power forward, do we also count Lebron and Durant as Power Forwards? Gasol has played 2% more of his career minutes at Power Forward than Durant has.

[NZB2323]

Tim Duncan played 63% of his career minutes at center and only 36% of his minutes at power forward. Pau Gasol played 69% of his minutes at center, and only 31% at power forward. Why do these guys count as power forwards and not centers?

It's helpful to consider that in the years Duncan was 'more' of a center than a PF, it was because he primarily played as a forward on offense and a center on defense. That skews those BB-Ref percentages greatly.

For his career, his FG attempts split pretty evenly among shots at the rim (>three feet), the paint (3-10 feet), and ranged shots (10-23 feet). That kind of spread and versatility is characteristic of a PF.

As a defender, he spent most of his time under and near the basket; he played out more in his younger years, when he had the springy legs and lateral speed to do so, but his primary duties were at/near the basket.

In my opinion, it's better to think of his positioning this way: for the first nine years of his career, he was a PF who switched to the center role sometimes on D; for the last 10, he was more of a two-way center.

But even if we only take the first nine years of his career under consideration, his resume (four rings, three FVMPs, two MVPs) still dwarfs any other power forwards, so he still gets the top spot.

In 2013, 2014, and 2018 Lebron played more minutes at power forward, and Durant played more minutes at power forward from 2017-2021. Should they be on the list?

And what about Pau Gasol? Why does he count as a power forward and not a center? I get that he played power forward(just like Duncan) when the team had a center, but then do we count Hakeem as a power forward from when he played with Ralph Sampson? Hakeem could shoot ranged shots, just like Duncan and Gasol.

[-Sammy-]

Tim Duncan played 63% of his career minutes at center and only 36% of his minutes at power forward. Pau Gasol played 69% of his minutes at center, and only 31% at power forward. Why do these guys count as power forwards and not centers?

It's helpful to consider that in the years Duncan was 'more' of a center than a PF, it was because he primarily played as a forward on offense and a center on defense. That skews those BB-Ref percentages greatly.

For his career, his FG attempts split pretty evenly among shots at the rim (>three feet), the paint (3-10 feet), and ranged shots (10-23 feet). That kind of spread and versatility is characteristic of a PF.

As a defender, he spent most of his time under and near the basket; he played out more in his younger years, when he had the springy legs and lateral speed to do so, but his primary duties were at/near the basket.

In my opinion, it's better to think of his positioning this way: for the first nine years of his career, he was a PF who switched to the center role sometimes on D; for the last 10, he was more of a two-way center.

But even if we only take the first nine years of his career under consideration, his resume (four rings, three FVMPs, two MVPs) still dwarfs any other power forwards, so he still gets the top spot.

In 2013, 2014, and 2018 Lebron played more minutes at power forward, and Durant played more minutes at power forward from 2017-2021. Should they be on the list?

And what about Pau Gasol? Why does he count as a power forward and not a center? I get that he played power forward(just like Duncan) when the team had a center, but then do we count Hakeem as a power forward from when he played with Ralph Sampson? Hakeem could shoot ranged shots, just like Duncan and Gasol.

I can't speak to Gasol, as I'm not familiar enough with the minutiae of his career to analyze it. But considering the James and Durant stuff speaks to the problem with locking any of these guys into one position and insisting that they can only be evaluated at that one position.

But as I said, the BB-Ref percentage data you cited is misleading because it obfuscates the fact that most of Duncan's career was spent playing offense at one position and defense at another.

Basketball is just too fluid a game to be so restrictive-- the fact that one can make an argument for James as a PF or a PG bears this out. This is why categorical player rankings based on position almost never work.

[Reeko]

Giannis should be #3 and McHale #8.

[bbalnation]

Are they hoping Bosh responds, since hes retired and he has replied to disrespectful stuff before?

I mean, how else do you explain putting a guy like Bobby Jones, who averaged 14 and 9 in his peak, and 12 and 6 over his career?

If you want to pay homage to the people of the past, do so. But don't make a mockery of it in hopes for clicks (Hoopshype, not OP).

Bobby Jones was one of the greatest defenders at the PF of all time.

I commend Bill Russell's defense because it produced championships, or at least long term winning. Defense wins championships after all, especially as a big man, where you can be an anchor in those days. And especially if you're gonna make a top 20 all time list over Chris Bosh and other Power Forward Greats.

Nicknamed "the Secretary of Defense", Jones won an NBA championship with the 76ers in 1983, was a 4-time NBA All-Star, an 8-time member of the NBA All-Defensive Team, and was the NBA Sixth Man of the Year in 1983.

This is laughable.

[Eric Bieniemy]

Tim Duncan played 63% of his career minutes at center and only 36% of his minutes at power forward. Pau Gasol played 69% of his minutes at center, and only 31% at power forward. Why do these guys count as power forwards and not centers?

Because people are single-minded.

Coach Pop even acknowledged that Duncan has ALWAYS been a center.

It seems the same positional discrepancy has occurred with Larry Bird, who, to me, without verifying, appeared to have played mostly at PF throughout his career.

Play-by-Play data for the NBA started in the 96-97 season, so we don't have stats on how many minutes Bird played at each position. I believe he mainly played Small Forward because they had McHale at Power Forward and Robert Parish at Center, but if Bird played today I believe he would absolutely be a 3-point shooting/playmaking 4.

But if we're going to count player who played some time at power forward, do we also count Lebron and Durant as Power Forwards? Gasol has played 2% more of his career minutes at Power Forward than Durant has.

I don't think James has played most of his minutes at PF, so no to him.

Durant, absolutely.

If I'm wrong about Bird, so be it, but I don't think I am.

It's not about emotional attachments. It's about the position that these guys played.

With the exception of PG, a player's position is defined by who they guard, especially in the man-to-man defense era. A point guard is defined by who brings the ball up the court the most on the team. For example, Scottie Pippen, to me was a PG, and so is Draymond Green ... Stephen Curry is more of a SG.

[FreeThrowLine]

The disrespect for Barkley continues

[Snakebites]

No need to get into positional semantics here- if they say Duncan is a power forward and Bird isn’t I’m good with that even though both COULD go the other way.

I personally prefer KG and Dirk to Malone.

The rest I can nitpick spots but I think it’s a pretty good overall list.

[Meat]

dray way to high, McHale way too low