Was Muggsy Bogues the best player in the world?

[Lalouie]

[niQ]

Will there ever be another 5'3 NBA player?

[ChuckChilly]

Will there ever be another 5'3 NBA player?

I think there could be, but it would be tough combating the notion that he could survive in the league. Hell, people thought Trae Young would fail because of his size, and he's 6'1 in shoes. But Earl Boykins managed to have a 13 year career at 5'5. He was a different kind of player though. Led the nation in scoring in college I believe.

One thing I will say is that Muggsy definitely benefited from being able to hand check on defense. I'm not sure how much of a defensive hound he would be without being to do that consistently.

[druggas]

I think Spud Webb was more amazing than Muggsy. When he and Dominique went toe to toe at the dunk contest, it was the best dunk contest I've ever watched!

[First Step]

dont think chess is that strongly associated with IQ tho

Sorry to tell you but it’s the opposite. The top 30 grandmasters in the world has by far the highest IQ recorded for any profession. Basically genius level intellect that’s just for raw IQ (IQ is the best indicator we have for career success in fields with high IQs general to the population doctors, lawyers, scientists etc. but I digress).

Makes sense humans have a tipping point on mathematics when taking lines of play. They can stretch it further then everybody else but pales in comparison to a Chess Machine where a 20th line is very simple but for a greatest chess players ever that’s basically a mystery the numbers of lines would fill up a whole post.

One of the most impressive things is when Kasparov beat Deep Blue and Lee Sedol won a game with Alpha Go decades later (very interesting docu on AL learning which is far superior than us). Dubbed the “GOD” move whereby the machine didn’t account for the 1/10,000 move and thus turning the game on its head. In the interview Sedol just said it felt right and didn’t think about it. Up to a point we definelty don’t have the computational power to think that far ahead.

Used to be emulation from an inferior source (us)
Then to machine learning from machine
Now to self learning and vs other game machines
Or machine vs machine with their own biases on learning involved.

Cool part about it is humans now learn from machines and not the other way around. Now lines of play that would make normal humans have migraines and the best in the world make it understandable. They actually do the heavy lifting now on gamestates. I think from memory it’s about six steps mostly covered for after opening play. There’s an unimaginable number of variations but that is also covered well by the machine and historicity on backlogs that leads to essentially similar board states. It’s revolutionary now in Chess because the game is trending towards more “opening kind of play” because a huge X number, and much more lines of play has been accounted for.

Insane part about it is that Magnus Carlsen the GOAT probably remembers most of the lines he’s ever come across and read. He can play 50+ average men blindfolded and would beat everyone one of them pretty comfortably. That’s a genius and then some.

For Muggsy it’ll be more like a less talented Mighty Mouse Johnson being able to contend (no where near being the best) at welterweight which is absurd in of itself.

Physically an anomaly in the NBA probably the rarest case on record but it doesn’t have much to do with IQ but I get the op’s statement.

Based on what?
I know Nakamura (arguably best blitz player) did a MENSA test, and he scored an extremely average 103... even complained about not having enough time.
That's one of the best chess players alive, and arguably the fastest thinker in the sport.
Bang on average IQ.

Chess =/= IQ

Edit: Nakamura tested 102, not 103.

Basketball =/= Height, either. However, you won't find too many dumb people who are also very skilled at chess, and you won't find too many short people in the NBA.

[Hoop Heavy]

Didn't Smith say "pound for pound, the best player in the world" or something like that?

Would you rather have three Muggsies or one Zion?

Not "pound for pound" ... but "inch for inch" ... yeah maybe he's the best ... in the conversation anyway

[nikster]

Sorry to tell you but it’s the opposite. The top 30 grandmasters in the world has by far the highest IQ recorded for any profession. Basically genius level intellect that’s just for raw IQ (IQ is the best indicator we have for career success in fields with high IQs general to the population doctors, lawyers, scientists etc. but I digress).

Makes sense humans have a tipping point on mathematics when taking lines of play. They can stretch it further then everybody else but pales in comparison to a Chess Machine where a 20th line is very simple but for a greatest chess players ever that’s basically a mystery the numbers of lines would fill up a whole post.

One of the most impressive things is when Kasparov beat Deep Blue and Lee Sedol won a game with Alpha Go decades later (very interesting docu on AL learning which is far superior than us). Dubbed the “GOD” move whereby the machine didn’t account for the 1/10,000 move and thus turning the game on its head. In the interview Sedol just said it felt right and didn’t think about it. Up to a point we definelty don’t have the computational power to think that far ahead.

Used to be emulation from an inferior source (us)
Then to machine learning from machine
Now to self learning and vs other game machines
Or machine vs machine with their own biases on learning involved.

Cool part about it is humans now learn from machines and not the other way around. Now lines of play that would make normal humans have migraines and the best in the world make it understandable. They actually do the heavy lifting now on gamestates. I think from memory it’s about six steps mostly covered for after opening play. There’s an unimaginable number of variations but that is also covered well by the machine and historicity on backlogs that leads to essentially similar board states. It’s revolutionary now in Chess because the game is trending towards more “opening kind of play” because a huge X number, and much more lines of play has been accounted for.

Insane part about it is that Magnus Carlsen the GOAT probably remembers most of the lines he’s ever come across and read. He can play 50+ average men blindfolded and would beat everyone one of them pretty comfortably. That’s a genius and then some.

For Muggsy it’ll be more like a less talented Mighty Mouse Johnson being able to contend (no where near being the best) at welterweight which is absurd in of itself.

Physically an anomaly in the NBA probably the rarest case on record but it doesn’t have much to do with IQ but I get the op’s statement.

Based on what?
I know Nakamura (arguably best blitz player) did a MENSA test, and he scored an extremely average 103... even complained about not having enough time.
That's one of the best chess players alive, and arguably the fastest thinker in the sport.
Bang on average IQ.

Chess =/= IQ

Edit: Nakamura tested 102, not 103.

Basketball =/= Height, either. However, you won't find too many dumb people who are also very skilled at chess, and you won't find too many short people in the NBA.

Virtually all nba players are 90th percentile in height, the average nba player is like 99.5th percentile. The shortest players currently in the NBA are listed at 5'10, which means there are zero players at or below average height (5'9 in US and the global average of 5'7). No way you find that kind of distribution of IQ in chess.

Nakamura as one of the greats has an average IQ. That'd be equivalent of an MVP candidate being 5'9. Has never happened in NBA history

[First Step]

Based on what?
I know Nakamura (arguably best blitz player) did a MENSA test, and he scored an extremely average 103... even complained about not having enough time.
That's one of the best chess players alive, and arguably the fastest thinker in the sport.
Bang on average IQ.

Chess =/= IQ

Edit: Nakamura tested 102, not 103.

Basketball =/= Height, either. However, you won't find too many dumb people who are also very skilled at chess, and you won't find too many short people in the NBA.

Virtually all nba players are 90th percentile in height, the average nba player is like 99.5th percentile. The shortest players currently in the NBA are listed at 5'10, which means there are zero players at or below average height (5'9 in US and the global average of 5'7). No way you find that kind of distribution of IQ in chess.

Nakamura as one of the greats has an average IQ. That'd be equivalent of an MVP candidate being 5'9. Has never happened in NBA history

Iverson won MVP at 6'0"(closer to 5'11" in reality), so I'm not sure it's impossible. And virtually all the grandmaster chess players are going to be intellectual people. Chess at that level is extremely complex, and no ordinary pigeon brain is going to be able to beat a grandmaster chess player. And outliers do exist.

[Maxthirty]

I'm the best chess player in the world when you adjust for IQ.

dont think chess is that strongly associated with IQ tho

Well it definitely is associated.

If you had to take a guess of who would win a game of chess between someone with a genius IQ or someone with a bottom 1% IQ… who ya got?

[DCasey91]

Yeah he didn’t mention Carlsen, Kasparov, Polgar, Topalov, Karpov etc etc.

It’s like saying a mechanic is really just an average one at fixing a car.

They have unbelievable brain power/capacity/mental focus/memory. If that’s not a sign of high intelligence than I don’t know what is

IQ tests can be shoddy at best, intelligence not so much. A common theme is IQ tests get out of control at younger ages because a prodigious gifted kid is like being in a room with Superman and the rest of us even very very intelligent people are like cavemen. Because they have rapid almost exponential learning/development curves and then it smoothes out later on.

[FreeThrowLine]

Didn't Smith say "pound for pound, the best player in the world" or something like that?

Would you rather have three Muggsies or one Zion?

Comparing the shortest player in history to the fatest is probably a bad example

Firstly it's 'fattest' and secondly Zion is nowhere near the fattest player in NBA history. Have you heard of Kevin Duckworth, Mike Sweetney or Oliver Miller? Countless other players that had nowhere near the amount of muscle Zion has like Eddy Curry, Sean May, Greg Ostertag, Glen Davis, Jerome James and so many more

[FreeThrowLine]

Watch on YouTube

[JXL]

Didn't Smith say "pound for pound, the best player in the world" or something like that?

Would you rather have three Muggsies or one Zion?

1 Zion could eat 3 Muggsies.

[nikster]

I'm the best chess player in the world when you adjust for IQ.

dont think chess is that strongly associated with IQ tho

Well it definitely is associated.

If you had to take a guess of who would win a game of chess between someone with a genius IQ or someone with a bottom 1% IQ… who ya got?

Feel free to provide something showing association, but from the studies I've seen its weak to non-existant. just because it uses the mind does not mean IQ is associated.

The bottom 1% is mentally disabled, so yeah I would talk the genius. Not a really insightful question tho

[Maxthirty]

dont think chess is that strongly associated with IQ tho

Well it definitely is associated.

If you had to take a guess of who would win a game of chess between someone with a genius IQ or someone with a bottom 1% IQ… who ya got?

Feel free to provide something showing association, but from the studies I've seen its weak to non-existant. just because it uses the mind does not mean IQ is associated.

The bottom 1% is mentally disabled, so yeah I would talk the genius. Not a really insightful question tho

If you can’t see how they’re associated… I have a feeling you might be bad at chess.

[ChuckChilly]

Watch on YouTube

I forgot about this scene. Hilarious

[tbhawksfan1]

Didn't Smith say "pound for pound, the best player in the world" or something like that?

Would you rather have three Muggsies or one Zion?

Comparing the shortest player in history to the fatest is probably a bad example

Firstly it's 'fattest' and secondly Zion is nowhere near the fattest player in NBA history. Have you heard of Kevin Duckworth, Mike Sweetney or Oliver Miller? Countless other players that had nowhere near the amount of muscle Zion has like Eddy Curry, Sean May, Greg Ostertag, Glen Davis, Jerome James and so many more

I know, but it would of been less funny to say 8th fattest person

[FreeThrowLine]

Comparing the shortest player in history to the fatest is probably a bad example

Firstly it's 'fattest' and secondly Zion is nowhere near the fattest player in NBA history. Have you heard of Kevin Duckworth, Mike Sweetney or Oliver Miller? Countless other players that had nowhere near the amount of muscle Zion has like Eddy Curry, Sean May, Greg Ostertag, Glen Davis, Jerome James and so many more

I know, but it would of been less funny to say 8th fattest person

I doubt he’s in the top 20 let alone top 10 as far as body fat %

Also there’s nothing funny about making fun of people’s weight

[tbhawksfan1]

Firstly it's 'fattest' and secondly Zion is nowhere near the fattest player in NBA history. Have you heard of Kevin Duckworth, Mike Sweetney or Oliver Miller? Countless other players that had nowhere near the amount of muscle Zion has like Eddy Curry, Sean May, Greg Ostertag, Glen Davis, Jerome James and so many more

I know, but it would of been less funny to say 8th fattest person

I doubt he’s in the top 20 let alone top 10 as far as body fat %

Also there’s nothing funny about making fun of people’s weight

You must not have seen that video of Zion waddleing around on the court. That is some funny....