How Far Does This All-Defensive Team Go?

[DaPessimist]

I love defense, but great offense beats great defense.

Definitely a playoff team, but they get bounced as soon as they run into one of the top teams, who both play great defense and have superstar offensive talent.

[picc]

Jimmy Butler takes teams to the playoffs

Jimmy Butler and Bam already works

Lonzo can do the same role Kyle Lowry does right now for Miami

Caruso already works perfectly with Lonzo

Alex Caruso won't be stretching the floor much but he'll be cutting and setting screens which will help Jimmy and Bam go to work.

Draymond is the odd man out but he has such a high BBIQ he'd probably make it work with a ton of screen setting and off ball movement and facilitation.

This team is a solid second round exit but they're the kind of team no one wants to face cause they'll put you to work every single possession.

Who is solidly going to best them though? The Nets, maybe? But they’re an iso team, which plays right into this teams hands with 5 switchable isolation defenders. Who else? The Wizards and Bucks?

Is that really a guarantee?

[picc]

swap simmons for caruso and you're cooking

No.

[Commodor]

Bulls are 5th in defensive rating.

https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/defense/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1

I was looking at adjusted drtg below which had them at 11 before they adjusted for their beat down of the hapless magic last night. Has them at 8 now.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2022_ratings.html

Ranked 5th in unadjusted. The Bulls have been better than top 10 all season until two bad losses to the Pacers and Rockets. Their defense is much better than you give them credit for. And Caruso and Lonzo Ball are key contributors to that defense.

Personally I’ve only seen a couple national TV games and didn’t deep dive their game so I won’t pretend to be an expert. That was just the stat I used in my earlier comment.

But when the Rockets and Pacers are giving you bad losses & Curry goes for 40 on 62.5% & 53.% from 3 in 3 quarters, a game which I attended live, that is a fair indicator that “all-defensive” may be a bit of a stretch. Curry is Lonzo & Caruso’s exact assignment and he destroyed them. He’s great but I’ve seen many players try more admirably.

And I do like Caruso’s defense. I take more offense on Lonzo, who people have been desperately trying to give undue props since he got in the league. He consistently fails to live up to those props, although it does seem his shot has developed, I’ll give him that.

[Commodor]

I love defense, but great offense beats great defense.

Definitely a playoff team, but they get bounced as soon as they run into one of the top teams, who both play great defense and have superstar offensive talent.

Duncan & the Spurs would like to remind you how well the 6 second Suns performed when their historic offense ran into a good defense.

[junot111]

I love defense, but great offense beats great defense.

Definitely a playoff team, but they get bounced as soon as they run into one of the top teams, who both play great defense and have superstar offensive talent.

Duncan & the Spurs would like to remind you how well the 6 second Suns performed when their historic offense ran into a good defense.

Great individual offense surrounded by good role players > Great defense > Great team offense

[junot111]

I would love to see a team like this. They're all high elite defensive players and high IQ players that can pass at each position. Their offense might stall in crunch time and the playoffs but they would run most teams out the gym in the regular season just by scoring from opportunities created by their defense.

[HoopsterJones]

I was looking at adjusted drtg below which had them at 11 before they adjusted for their beat down of the hapless magic last night. Has them at 8 now.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2022_ratings.html

Ranked 5th in unadjusted. The Bulls have been better than top 10 all season until two bad losses to the Pacers and Rockets. Their defense is much better than you give them credit for. And Caruso and Lonzo Ball are key contributors to that defense.

Personally I’ve only seen a couple national TV games and didn’t deep dive their game so I won’t pretend to be an expert. That was just the stat I used in my earlier comment.

But when the Rockets and Pacers are giving you bad losses & Curry goes for 40 on 62.5% & 53.% from 3 in 3 quarters, a game which I attended live, that is a fair indicator that “all-defensive” may be a bit of a stretch. Curry is Lonzo & Caruso’s exact assignment and he destroyed them. He’s great but I’ve seen many players try more admirably.

And I do like Caruso’s defense. I take more offense on Lonzo, who people have been desperately trying to give undue props since he got in the league. He consistently fails to live up to those props, although it does seem his shot has developed, I’ll give him that.

Caruso was out due to injury against the Pacers and his defensive intensity was definitely missed. The Bulls would’ve still lost with Caruso but not as badly IMO.

[theFireBlanket]

Lets say a GM puts together a team of

Bam Adebayo
Draymond Green
Jimmy Butler
Lonzo Ball
Alex Caruso

Assume an average bench.

Does this team compete for a championship, even with their offensive limitations?

Is this just a better heat team? Huge upgrade at pf and slightly worse at guard. Probably a pesky second round team.

The Heat are arguably the best team in the east right now. An upgraded version of them is a monster.

[Commodor]

I love defense, but great offense beats great defense.

Definitely a playoff team, but they get bounced as soon as they run into one of the top teams, who both play great defense and have superstar offensive talent.

Duncan & the Spurs would like to remind you how well the 6 second Suns performed when their historic offense ran into a good defense.

Great individual offense surrounded by good role players > Great defense > Great team offense

I mean Nash was an MVP purely on his offense. Stoudamire, Shawn Marion & Joe Johnson were all brilliant on offense. Hard to say any of them were not “great”.

[benhillboy]

I’d kick a lot of ass coaching that team. Love Caruso but gimme CP3 please. Pretty please.

[Saints14]

I think coaching really matters on that team. It's all-defense but also all-passing. I think the offense could be OK in a creative scheme

[Sebastian]

I take more offense on Lonzo, who people have been desperately trying to give undue props since he got in the league. He consistently fails to live up to those props, although it does seem his shot has developed, I’ll give him that.

If you're hating on Lonzo this year then you're simply not watching him play. He's been the #3 player on one of the best teams in the East. He's a 3 and D PG who does his job really, really well.

[a8bil]

Some curious choices for this "all-defensive" team...that said, you have some shooting and you definitely have some playmaking, so I'm thinking that unless they run into GSW, they have a clear path to the finals.

[Commodor]

If you're hating on Lonzo this year then you're simply not watching him play. He's been the #3 player on one of the best teams in the East. He's a 3 and D PG who does his job really, really well.

I’m saying he’s not making the all-defensive team.

[a8bil]

If you're hating on Lonzo this year then you're simply not watching him play. He's been the #3 player on one of the best teams in the East. He's a 3 and D PG who does his job really, really well.

The Bulls are doing well and Lonzo is playing his part...but for your non-Bull/non-Ball fan, Lonzo has a long way to go to live up to his hype, including posts like yours. When I read the lineup...my first reaction was "one of these things is not likely the other." Be happy he's developed into a solid NBA starting PG. it wasn't looking like he'ld even achieve that after his first few years.

[Sebastian]

If you're hating on Lonzo this year then you're simply not watching him play. He's been the #3 player on one of the best teams in the East. He's a 3 and D PG who does his job really, really well.

The Bulls are doing well and Lonzo is playing his part...but for your non-Bull/non-Ball fan, Lonzo has a long way to go to live up to his hype, including posts like yours. When I read the lineup...my first reaction was "one of these things is not likely the other." Be happy he's developed into a solid NBA starting PG. it wasn't looking like he'ld even achieve that after his first few years.

The Lonzo hype died after he left LA. He’s become a really good player, And at this point I would argue that he is actually underrated because the areas of the game he impacts aren’t flashy and as a result hater posts like yours pop up from time to time. Legitimate top-tier defense, over 40% from three on heavy volume, and a very good facilitator, especially on the fast break where he is borderline elite. No one has talked about him like a superstar or someone with superstar potential since his Laker days. More often since then he was talked about as a bust. But when you look at what he’s turned into and where he ranks in his draft class as well as overall in the league this year, he is absolutely due a lot of props for turning into a solid player. He’s hammered out the weaknesses he had when he entered the league and he’s smart enough that he almost never tries to do something out of his skill set. Honestly I’m not sure what a better version of Lonzo would be compared to what we’re seeing now. Maybe eventually he becomes a better halfcourt playmaker, but other than that the guy is scratching his ceiling, which is rare for any player. So again, props due.

[SimonFish]

I guess we can click the report button on Commodor's post for derailing discussion.

Anyway, as a starting point, flashback to the Bulls 2017 season: https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/2017.html

They ran a starting lineup of:
Rondo
Wade
Jimmy
Taj
Robin Lopez
similar to OP's team which has terrible spacing, and that Bulls team was a first round exit team.

Now of course OP's team is much better on both offensive and defensive ends. The fact that Lonzo is shooting 43% from 3s also helps a bit. I can see them making the conference finals at least.

[Commodor]

If you're hating on Lonzo this year then you're simply not watching him play. He's been the #3 player on one of the best teams in the East. He's a 3 and D PG who does his job really, really well.

The Bulls are doing well and Lonzo is playing his part...but for your non-Bull/non-Ball fan, Lonzo has a long way to go to live up to his hype, including posts like yours. When I read the lineup...my first reaction was "one of these things is not likely the other." Be happy he's developed into a solid NBA starting PG. it wasn't looking like he'ld even achieve that after his first few years.

The Lonzo hype died after he left LA. He’s become a really good player, And at this point I would argue that he is actually underrated because the areas of the game he impacts aren’t flashy and as a result hater posts like yours pop up from time to time. Legitimate top-tier defense, over 40% from three on heavy volume, and a very good facilitator, especially on the fast break where he is borderline elite. No one has talked about him like a superstar or someone with superstar potential since his Laker days. More often since then he was talked about as a bust. But when you look at what he’s turned into and where he ranks in his draft class as well as overall in the league this year, he is absolutely due a lot of props for turning into a solid player. He’s hammered out the weaknesses he had when he entered the league and he’s smart enough that he almost never tries to do something out of his skill set. Honestly I’m not sure what a better version of Lonzo would be compared to what we’re seeing now. Maybe eventually he becomes a better halfcourt playmaker, but other than that the guy is scratching his ceiling, which is rare for any player. So again, props due.

I’m again confused?

Props for “reaching his ceiling” which is maybe 4th best on his current team which consists of no super stars? 21 games into the season?

Or never having achieved a winning season and 4 consistent underwhelming years of stat performance?

Or that he wasn’t as big of a disappointment as Fultz? Because Tatum, Mitchell, Bam, Fox, Isaac, Collins & OG are all clearly better than him in his own draft class.

Or that he is not in the top 30 for drtg or dbpm but somehow elite this year on defense?

Sure.

Props.

[Commodor]

Big ups to commodor for focusing on semantics that dont matter at all.

I asked you for clarification. You responded snarkily.

All you had to title this was “how does this defensive team do”.

No one forced you to use the literal title for top tier defensive player in the league at a position.

Which the rest of the comments seem to agree with me is not appropriate for the guards you listed.