Rank all time great offensive players by tiers

[falcolombardi]

Holding the highest ORTG, while playing with KD/Klay/Iggy/Livingston/Draymond, is somehow less impressive.

That being said, I don’t know how you’d rate lebron that high as some here are doing. At his peak, I’d rate him just below Harden offensively.

1-Goat tier (max 6 players)

Magic, Bird, Curry, Cousy, Shaq

These guys all changed the way the game was played, league wide. Their dominance went beyond ‘being the best at what everyone is doing’.

2-Borderline Goat (max 6 players)

Oscar Robertson, Nash, Jokic

3-All time great (max 12 players)

MJ, Harden, Kareem, Dirk, Barkley, KD

Maybe: Adrian Dantley, Gervin (haven’t seen enough to say)

Lebron by every statistical category is a GOAT tier offensive player. Even if you want to 'eye test' it, it's also very clear.

It's very clear in the RS & PS too.

I know you hate Lebron but this is very misinformed. Having MJ in the "all-time' category is also some next level comedy.

Ah, with all his scoring and assist titles and great offenses led? Oh wait, he's done none of that. He's never even been on a team that's top rated in ORTG, despite playing for super teams his whole career. "His teammates just weren't good enough", while Steve Nash leads Kurt Thomas and Raja Bell to a top rated offense... "lebron is on another level" rofl.

MJ at least has a case. Dominated in scoring, teams 1st in ORTG almost every year of the 90s, etc... however, MJ was also in his peak in the late 80s. His team wasn't doing well offensively. When Michael Jordan missed 1986, the Bulls actually improved offensively - but they got much worse defensively.

Unfortunately, a lot of people using the "eye test" have never played basketball competitively, and have no idea what good offense is... they just look at who wins and say "that's clearly the best!" That seems like the test you use.

notable super teams like the 2005-2010 cavs, 2018 cavs or 2019 lakers

dude, tone down the passive agressive attacks for real

[euroleague]

Lebron by every statistical category is a GOAT tier offensive player. Even if you want to 'eye test' it, it's also very clear.

It's very clear in the RS & PS too.

I know you hate Lebron but this is very misinformed. Having MJ in the "all-time' category is also some next level comedy.

Ah, with all his scoring and assist titles and great offenses led? Oh wait, he's done none of that. He's never even been on a team that's top rated in ORTG, despite playing for super teams his whole career. "His teammates just weren't good enough", while Steve Nash leads Kurt Thomas and Raja Bell to a top rated offense... "lebron is on another level" rofl.

MJ at least has a case. Dominated in scoring, teams 1st in ORTG almost every year of the 90s, etc... however, MJ was also in his peak in the late 80s. His team wasn't doing well offensively. When Michael Jordan missed 1986, the Bulls actually improved offensively - but they got much worse defensively.

Unfortunately, a lot of people using the "eye test" have never played basketball competitively, and have no idea what good offense is... they just look at who wins and say "that's clearly the best!" That seems like the test you use.

Lebron in comparison to Curry in the PS

Lebron (PS Peaks)
3-year PS ScoreVal-2.3
3-year PS PlayVal-2.5 (#1 all-time)
3-year Backpicks OBPM-7.3

Best 3-year PS Offense-rOrtg of 9.4


Steph (PS Peaks)
3-year PS ScoreVal-1.9
3-year PS PlayVal-1.3
3-year Backpicks OBPM-5.5

Best 3-year PS Offense lead-rOrtg of 7.5

Lebron has 5 3-YEAR STRETCHES, of a ScoreVal of 2 or higher, and this gives me further confidence in his ability as a scorer than Steph. Steph's way to make up for this would be an off-ball savant who fits more easily with players, however, I am still not certain that buoys him to Lebron level offensively. Lebron has 4 3-YEAR STRETCHES of an rORTG above 8, and generally has lead better team offenses when he runs the point.



Lebron in comparison to Magic

Looking at PS rORTG since the 60s per Backpicks, Lebron's teams have 1 spot in the top 5 and 2 spots in the top 10. Magic's Lakers (86-87) have 1 entry in the top 20.

PS offensive ratings can be noisy because of small sample sizes but depending on the range you use, it still shows Lebron leading better offenses. For example, Lebron's Cavs-Heat years topped the Magic's Lakers in 8 year PS offense. You argue the 2017 Cavs were a fluke but the 2016 Cavs had a top 10 offense of all-time for the PS (and yes they went up against good defensive teams during this stint).

According Backpicks, the 2015-17 Cavs have the 3rd best unique offensive PS stretch for relative offensive rating, and keep in mind Lebron did not have a healthy Kyrie or KLove for much of the 2015 PS. This would be any 3 year stretch of Magic's career.

To me this is noteworthy, because when we are talking greatest offensive players of all-time, a 8 year stretch is good enough to capture someone's prime while not being a long enough span to veer into the territory of longevity (which Magic lacks). Lebron could be argued to have led better offenses throughout his career. The box-score (which misses a lot) is in favor of Lebron as well.

I don't think it is ludicrous to have Lebron on either of their levels offensively.

It's ludicrous to think you are using that stat to seriously compare players offensive levels. You realize playoffs depend on conference and seeding? In the regular season, everyone plays everyone. In the playoffs, it's LeBron in some of the easiest match-ups ever....on a superteam.... ON TOP of that stat being incredibly volatile due to low game count.

The 2015 Cavs: going against the Isaiah Thomas and Evan Turner Celtics, then the Pau Gasol Bulls, and then the Jeff Teague Al Horford Hawks... put up great numbers. But, they SUCKED offensively in the Finals. Against the only good defense they faced, absolutely terrible ORTG. Shocker.

The 2016 Cavs: Andre Drummond Pistons, Jeff Teague+ Al Horford Hawks, then the DeRozan Raptors... they did well vs the first two. They also did very well vs the No Bogut, Injured Iggy, Suspended Draymond Warriors (I say that because they absolutely sucked the first 4 games, where there were no injuries/suspensions).

The 2017 Cavs: Jeff Teague + Paul George Pacers, The Choking Raptors, and ESPECIALLY the Isaiah Thomas Celtics... they killed those 3 series. All-time level stomping. Lebron Irving Love superteam beating down on Isaiah Thomas in the conference Finals - that's peak Eastern Conference from the 00s.

Does it surprise me that those 3 seasons of super-teams, in the weakest conference ever, put up ridiculous numbers? No. Does it mean anything about LeBron's offensive ability being better than "all-time" level? Also no.

Relative ORTG, when every team is playing different teams with different styles, is just absurd to think about in the playoffs. That's why I also think Magic is over-rated... worst conference I've ever seen. Offensively, though, there's no question he was head and shoulders above anything the game had ever seen.

Unfortunately, a lot of people using the "eye test" have never played basketball competitively, and have no idea what good offense is... they just look at who wins and say "that's clearly the best!" That seems like the test you use.

notable super teams like the 2005-2010 cavs, 2018 cavs or 2019 lakers

dude, tone down the passive agressive attacks for real

Yea, and all those championships he won on those teams! The incredible playoff success of the 19 Lakers and 05-10 Cavs, lol...

I don't think you know what passive aggressive means.

[Colbinii]

I see Euroleague has trolled some more younger, open minded folks.

Eventually you realize certain posters have their cemented view points and will never change said view points. It's often best to never engaged with said posters and instead interact with people who are looking to learn rather than flex their blow-up dolls.

[McBubbles]

Holding the highest ORTG, while playing with KD/Klay/Iggy/Livingston/Draymond, is somehow less impressive.

That being said, I don’t know how you’d rate lebron that high as some here are doing. At his peak, I’d rate him just below Harden offensively.

1-Goat tier (max 6 players)

Magic, Bird, Curry, Cousy, Shaq

These guys all changed the way the game was played, league wide. Their dominance went beyond ‘being the best at what everyone is doing’.

2-Borderline Goat (max 6 players)

Oscar Robertson, Nash, Jokic

3-All time great (max 12 players)

MJ, Harden, Kareem, Dirk, Barkley, KD

Maybe: Adrian Dantley, Gervin (haven’t seen enough to say)

Lebron by every statistical category is a GOAT tier offensive player. Even if you want to 'eye test' it, it's also very clear.

It's very clear in the RS & PS too.

I know you hate Lebron but this is very misinformed. Having MJ in the "all-time' category is also some next level comedy.

Ah, with all his scoring and assist titles and great offenses led? Oh wait, he's done none of that. He's never even been on a team that's top rated in ORTG, despite playing for super teams his whole career. "His teammates just weren't good enough", while Steve Nash leads Kurt Thomas and Raja Bell to a top rated offense... "lebron is on another level" rofl.

MJ at least has a case. Dominated in scoring, teams 1st in ORTG almost every year of the 90s, etc... however, MJ was also in his peak in the late 80s. His team wasn't doing well offensively. When Michael Jordan missed 1986, the Bulls actually improved offensively - but they got much worse defensively.

Unfortunately, a lot of people using the "eye test" have never played basketball competitively, and have no idea what good offense is... they just look at who wins and say "that's clearly the best!" That seems like the test you use.

1. He's done both of those things you said he didn't do ._. jfc man, this level of disregard for facts is ridiculous.

2. Let's pretend that playing a sport and understanding a sport are synonymous (they're not). Do you actually think you have a better understanding of NBA Offence because you at some point in time played not even close to NBA basketball? The hubris lmao.

[No-more-rings]

In terms of average prime offensive year

GOAT:
Future Luka Doncic/ LeBron /Jordan / Jokic / Magic/ Nash

I don't think it's fair to put someone on this list for what you predict they will be.

[ShotCreator]

Absolute primes(2-4 year stretches)

Considering the essence of how good they were, I.e no resilience, portability, etc considered:

Tier 1: Curry, Magic, Nash

Tier 2: Jordan, Bird, Jokic

Tier 3: LeBron, Harden, Shaq, Oscar

Might edit some I forgot in but that’s where I’m at

[70sFan]

Absolute primes(2-4 year stretches)

Considering the essence of how good they were, I.e no resilience, portability, etc considered:

Tier 1: Curry, Magic, Nash

Tier 2: Jordan, Bird, Jokic

Tier 3: LeBron, Harden, Shaq, Oscar

Might edit some I forgot in but that’s where I’m at

Interesting - no Jerry West? Why Harden over him?

Also, why Shaq over Kareem?

[No-more-rings]

Absolute primes(2-4 year stretches)

Considering the essence of how good they were, I.e no resilience, portability, etc considered:

Tier 1: Curry, Magic, Nash

Tier 2: Jordan, Bird, Jokic

Tier 3: LeBron, Harden, Shaq, Oscar

Might edit some I forgot in but that’s where I’m at

Interesting - no Jerry West? Why Harden over him?

Also, why Shaq over Kareem?

Harden and Lebron being in the same tier baffles me more honestly. I'm not sure there's really good evidence for it, but maybe there's something I'm not aware of.

[ShotCreator]

Absolute primes(2-4 year stretches)

Considering the essence of how good they were, I.e no resilience, portability, etc considered:

Tier 1: Curry, Magic, Nash

Tier 2: Jordan, Bird, Jokic

Tier 3: LeBron, Harden, Shaq, Oscar

Might edit some I forgot in but that’s where I’m at

Interesting - no Jerry West? Why Harden over him?

Also, why Shaq over Kareem?

Harden and Lebron being in the same tier baffles me more honestly. I'm not sure there's really good evidence for it, but maybe there's something I'm not aware of.

West was a late removal at tier 3. But I’m not sure what functional advantage he had over Harden.

Though maybe I shouldn’t have removed him.

Kareem didn’t have anywhere near the level off-ball gravity and disruption of Shaq excluding point in which they had the ball. Any raw scoring advantage Kareem had is just blown away by the fact that Shaq was a vertical nightmare on the putback/lob threat, and horizontal on the deep catch threat. Defenses would have a much easier time putting up a natural, reasonable defensive scheme against Kareem as opposed to Shaq.

And that’s gonna show up in impact in a big way. Not even something I would think much about. Kareem clearly had Shaq as a defender but offense is not even a fun discussion to me.

And as far as Harden v. LeBron. I’m not sure it would be worth my time to explain that. Like if what Harden did in the D’Antoni era didn’t go off in your brain as rare, and quite clearly something a very small percentage of players can even compare to, I’m not sure what a message board post could really do.

Averaging 40-50 at will, against double teams, for weeks and weeks, with efficiency and legitimately high level playmaking as a necessity.

When has LeBron ever seen a half court double team, for an entire game? And what year would that ever be necessary? And then would that version LeBron, not just beat the double teams, eviscerating them on peak Jordan volume and efficiency?

Really that’s prime Harden’s in a vacuum comparison. Prime Jordan, not LeBron. Really I underrated him, he should be in tier 2.

But I see Harden’s disruption and approach to offense as similar to LeBron’s with the slashing and drive and kick game. Though Harden’s isolation was probably the greatest ever due to the insane Curry-like stepback ability against any defender at-will.

Prime LeBron’s slashing game and Curry’s pull-up game. Yeah, put him right below Drexler on offense.


So maybe my brain connected them.

If I would redo my list I’d probably put Harden in tier 2 and West in tier 3.

[Black Feet]

Absolute primes(2-4 year stretches)

Considering the essence of how good they were, I.e no resilience, portability, etc considered:

Tier 1: Curry, Magic, Nash

Tier 2: Jordan, Bird, Jokic

Tier 3: LeBron, Harden, Shaq, Oscar

Might edit some I forgot in but that’s where I’m at

Interesting - no Jerry West? Why Harden over him?

Also, why Shaq over Kareem?

Harden and Lebron being in the same tier baffles me more honestly. I'm not sure there's really good evidence for it, but maybe there's something I'm not aware of.

That list was bad before even making it to tier 2, Nash continues to be overrated. the fact so many putting Jokic in after 2 great regular seasons is laughable. Harden probably isn’t even better CP3 let alone someone like Durant, and if you are putting the likes of Oscar in there then where is Wilt?

[falcolombardi]

Interesting - no Jerry West? Why Harden over him?

Also, why Shaq over Kareem?

Harden and Lebron being in the same tier baffles me more honestly. I'm not sure there's really good evidence for it, but maybe there's something I'm not aware of.

That list was bad before even making it to tier 2, Nash continues to be overrated. the fact so many putting Jokic in after 2 great regular seasons is laughable. Harden probably isn’t even better CP3 let alone someone like Durant, and if you are putting the likes of Oscar in there then where is Wilt?

what if i think chris Paul is better thsn durant

[Black Feet]

Harden and Lebron being in the same tier baffles me more honestly. I'm not sure there's really good evidence for it, but maybe there's something I'm not aware of.

That list was bad before even making it to tier 2, Nash continues to be overrated. the fact so many putting Jokic in after 2 great regular seasons is laughable. Harden probably isn’t even better CP3 let alone someone like Durant, and if you are putting the likes of Oscar in there then where is Wilt?

what if i think chris Paul is better thsn durant

then you probably rank both of them ahead of Harden lol

[LukaTheGOAT]

Interesting - no Jerry West? Why Harden over him?

Also, why Shaq over Kareem?

Harden and Lebron being in the same tier baffles me more honestly. I'm not sure there's really good evidence for it, but maybe there's something I'm not aware of.

West was a late removal at tier 3. But I’m not sure what functional advantage he had over Harden.

Though maybe I shouldn’t have removed him.

Kareem didn’t have anywhere near the level off-ball gravity and disruption of Shaq excluding point in which they had the ball. Any raw scoring advantage Kareem had is just blown away by the fact that Shaq was a vertical nightmare on the putback/lob threat, and horizontal on the deep catch threat. Defenses would have a much easier time putting up a natural, reasonable defensive scheme against Kareem as opposed to Shaq.

And that’s gonna show up in impact in a big way. Not even something I would think much about. Kareem clearly had Shaq as a defender but offense is not even a fun discussion to me.

And as far as Harden v. LeBron. I’m not sure it would be worth my time to explain that. Like if what Harden did in the D’Antoni era didn’t go off in your brain as rare, and quite clearly something a very small percentage of players can even compare to, I’m not sure what a message board post could really do.

Averaging 40-50 at will, against double teams, for weeks and weeks, with efficiency and legitimately high level playmaking as a necessity.

When has LeBron ever seen a half court double team, for an entire game? And what year would that ever be necessary? And then would that version LeBron, not just beat the double teams, eviscerating them on peak Jordan volume and efficiency?

Really that’s prime Harden’s in a vacuum comparison. Prime Jordan, not LeBron. Really I underrated him, he should be in tier 2.

But I see Harden’s disruption and approach to offense as similar to LeBron’s with the slashing and drive and kick game. Though Harden’s isolation was probably the greatest ever due to the insane Curry-like stepback ability against any defender at-will.

Prime LeBron’s slashing game and Curry’s pull-up game. Yeah, put him right below Drexler on offense.


So maybe my brain connected them.

If I would redo my list I’d probably put Harden in tier 2 and West in tier 3.

What would Harden have to do to get in tier 1 in your opinion?

[70sFan]

West was a late removal at tier 3. But I’m not sure what functional advantage he had over Harden.

Well, I'd start with West's superior midrange game, which allowed him to be far more resiliant postseason scorer than Harden. West is top 5 playoff scorer ever, Harden doesn't approach that level.

Then West has a lot of advantages related to his off-ball play. This aspect is no brainer as well.

It's fair to have Harden ahead, but West had his share of functional advantages over James.

Kareem didn’t have anywhere near the level off-ball gravity and disruption of Shaq excluding point in which they had the ball. Any raw scoring advantage Kareem had is just blown away by the fact that Shaq was a vertical nightmare on the putback/lob threat, and horizontal on the deep catch threat. Defenses would have a much easier time putting up a natural, reasonable defensive scheme against Kareem as opposed to Shaq.

From my observations, this theory doesn't add up at all. Kareem faced A LOT of defensive attention without the ball. Opposing players were often sucked into the paint by Kareem's sheer pressence. His gravity was huge, tangible thing.

Kareem also worked extremely hard on getting deep positions in the paint. He wasn't as good as Shaq at that, but he needed less to work with. By my sample of size, Kareem shot over 50% from 3-10 feet area on ridiculous volume - far more efficient than Shaq. This means that even if Kareem got the ball 2 feet further from the basket than Shaq, it wouldn't reduce his effectiveness.

Comparing them as lob threats is nearly impossible due to era differences. I'll give Shaq offensive rebounding and ability to draw fouls, but that's not enough.

And that’s gonna show up in impact in a big way. Not even something I would think much about. Kareem clearly had Shaq as a defender but offense is not even a fun discussion to me.

Again, last year I watched and tracked over 30 games of each player and I don't see any reason to say that Shaq was much superior offensive player. He was MUCH less efficient isolation scorer, less versatile passer and had lesser effective range. Unlike someone like Hakeem, Kareem didn't lack off-ball impact Shaq is known for.

[uberhikari]

Interesting - no Jerry West? Why Harden over him?

Also, why Shaq over Kareem?

Harden and Lebron being in the same tier baffles me more honestly. I'm not sure there's really good evidence for it, but maybe there's something I'm not aware of.

West was a late removal at tier 3. But I’m not sure what functional advantage he had over Harden.

Though maybe I shouldn’t have removed him.

Kareem didn’t have anywhere near the level off-ball gravity and disruption of Shaq excluding point in which they had the ball. Any raw scoring advantage Kareem had is just blown away by the fact that Shaq was a vertical nightmare on the putback/lob threat, and horizontal on the deep catch threat. Defenses would have a much easier time putting up a natural, reasonable defensive scheme against Kareem as opposed to Shaq.

And that’s gonna show up in impact in a big way. Not even something I would think much about. Kareem clearly had Shaq as a defender but offense is not even a fun discussion to me.

And as far as Harden v. LeBron. I’m not sure it would be worth my time to explain that. Like if what Harden did in the D’Antoni era didn’t go off in your brain as rare, and quite clearly something a very small percentage of players can even compare to, I’m not sure what a message board post could really do.

Averaging 40-50 at will, against double teams, for weeks and weeks, with efficiency and legitimately high level playmaking as a necessity.

When has LeBron ever seen a half court double team, for an entire game? And what year would that ever be necessary? And then would that version LeBron, not just beat the double teams, eviscerating them on peak Jordan volume and efficiency?

Really that’s prime Harden’s in a vacuum comparison. Prime Jordan, not LeBron. Really I underrated him, he should be in tier 2.

But I see Harden’s disruption and approach to offense as similar to LeBron’s with the slashing and drive and kick game. Though Harden’s isolation was probably the greatest ever due to the insane Curry-like stepback ability against any defender at-will.

Prime LeBron’s slashing game and Curry’s pull-up game. Yeah, put him right below Drexler on offense.


So maybe my brain connected them.

If I would redo my list I’d probably put Harden in tier 2 and West in tier 3.

So, James Harden is a better offensive player than Lebron and a comparable offensive player to Jordan because he gets double teamed at half court?

[NbaAllDay]

Harden and Lebron being in the same tier baffles me more honestly. I'm not sure there's really good evidence for it, but maybe there's something I'm not aware of.

West was a late removal at tier 3. But I’m not sure what functional advantage he had over Harden.

Though maybe I shouldn’t have removed him.

Kareem didn’t have anywhere near the level off-ball gravity and disruption of Shaq excluding point in which they had the ball. Any raw scoring advantage Kareem had is just blown away by the fact that Shaq was a vertical nightmare on the putback/lob threat, and horizontal on the deep catch threat. Defenses would have a much easier time putting up a natural, reasonable defensive scheme against Kareem as opposed to Shaq.

And that’s gonna show up in impact in a big way. Not even something I would think much about. Kareem clearly had Shaq as a defender but offense is not even a fun discussion to me.

And as far as Harden v. LeBron. I’m not sure it would be worth my time to explain that. Like if what Harden did in the D’Antoni era didn’t go off in your brain as rare, and quite clearly something a very small percentage of players can even compare to, I’m not sure what a message board post could really do.

Averaging 40-50 at will, against double teams, for weeks and weeks, with efficiency and legitimately high level playmaking as a necessity.

When has LeBron ever seen a half court double team, for an entire game? And what year would that ever be necessary? And then would that version LeBron, not just beat the double teams, eviscerating them on peak Jordan volume and efficiency?

Really that’s prime Harden’s in a vacuum comparison. Prime Jordan, not LeBron. Really I underrated him, he should be in tier 2.

But I see Harden’s disruption and approach to offense as similar to LeBron’s with the slashing and drive and kick game. Though Harden’s isolation was probably the greatest ever due to the insane Curry-like stepback ability against any defender at-will.

Prime LeBron’s slashing game and Curry’s pull-up game. Yeah, put him right below Drexler on offense.


So maybe my brain connected them.

If I would redo my list I’d probably put Harden in tier 2 and West in tier 3.

So, James Harden is a better offensive player than Lebron and a comparable offensive player to Jordan because he gets double teamed at half court?

Don't forget he averages 40-50 at will.

[No-more-rings]

And as far as Harden v. LeBron. I’m not sure it would be worth my time to explain that. Like if what Harden did in the D’Antoni era didn’t go off in your brain as rare, and quite clearly something a very small percentage of players can even compare to, I’m not sure what a message board post could really do.

Maybe I'm wrong but this seems to be coming off as a bit condescending. Having Harden as Lebron's equal let alone superior on offense is a hot take, you seem to be saying it like it's obvious or something. I don't know of anyone that would even agree with that.

When has LeBron ever seen a half court double team, for an entire game?

When has Harden?

And what year would that ever be necessary? And then would that version LeBron, not just beat the double teams, eviscerating them on peak Jordan volume and efficiency?

Really that’s prime Harden’s in a vacuum comparison. Prime Jordan, not LeBron. Really I underrated him, he should be in tier 2.

But I see Harden’s disruption and approach to offense as similar to LeBron’s with the slashing and drive and kick game. Though Harden’s isolation was probably the greatest ever due to the insane Curry-like stepback ability against any defender at-will.

Prime LeBron’s slashing game and Curry’s pull-up game. Yeah, put him right below Drexler on offense.

I'll just respond with the rest of this by saying, I don't know how you are ignoring that Harden was nowhere near Jordan stratosphere in the postseason.

His Houston run was impressive, but not Jordan-esque. Let's look at the postseason mainly, because honestly I couldn't care less that Harden averaged 36 ppg or whatever it was.

2017:Harden averaged 28.5 ppg on a respectable 58.3 ts%, with 8.5 assists, sounds pretty good right? Well it came at the consequence of 5.4 tov per game. Harden faced OKC which a solid defensive team, not a great one. The Spurs were the best defense in the league, though certainly a cut below what they were with Duncan and honestly they probably overachieved because on paper I have no idea how they even achieved that. I'll just say Harden didn't have a good series. I could be more forgiving if he didn't have an historically bad close out game for a superstar in history. 10 points on 2-11 shooting with 6 turnovers? That game was also without Kawhi, Houston should've ran away with that game. Don't know how you really defend all that.

2018: I thought these were playoffs where Harden actually played pretty good defense. But we're only talking offense here so I'll stick to that. I mean Harden flatly underperformed here on that end, he faced one of the worst defense in the league in the Timberwolves, and 29 ppg on 56 ts% is the best he could do? It didn't get any better from there. I know they faced 2 great defenses in that run, but i don't know how you can look at that as a Lebron or Jordan type offensive run. His ts% in that run was below league average.

2019: His offense again just dropped off significantly, against the Jazz he had a 53 ts%(league average was 56%) and 5.6 tov? Somehow I really doubt the Jazz would've done that to Lebron or Jordan lol. Yeah i know he was great against the Warriors, but also a Warriors where they were run down from 4 straight finals and KD missing in game 6. I don't mean to take that away from him at all, but i have to look at both series.

2020: Yeah no real complaints here, although I'd like to remind everyone that this year basically everyone was going nuclear in the playoffs. Freaking Anthony Davis had a 67 ts% on high volume in the playoffs, Jamal Murray had absurd scoring numbers, Donovan Mitchell had a 36 ppg/70 ts% series. Jimmy Butler of all people even put up insane numbers against the Lakers, his series was arguably even better than Harden's.

Anyway, looking at Harden's 3 or 4 year peak, I don't know how you can consider than Jordan level when Jordan was dropping 40-45 ppg series in his prime on mega efficiency without breaking a sweat.

I mean outside of 2020 and 2015, Harden's playoffs have been...inconsistent to put it fairly. And that's mainly due to his step back 3 being much less reliable in the playoffs, his game is just more predictable.

Late prime Lebron overlapped perfectly with peak Harden, let's take a look at what they did overall.

2017-2020 Harden(playoffs): 29.5/7.3/4.3 tov 42.6 fg% 57.8 ts% 6.5 OBPM

2017-2020 Lebron(playoffs): 31.5/8.6/4.1 tov 55.3 fg% 63.7 ts% 8.6 OBPM

Lebron was 35 at the end of that run too. I feel like 24 or 25 year old Lebron with his athleticism would have chewed this league up.

I'm not at all convinced that Harden was clearly better on offense than Wade or Kobe. I'd probably put his O about equal with Wade's and slightly below Kobe overall.

[kcktiny]

Kareem didn’t have anywhere near the level off-ball gravity and disruption of Shaq excluding point in which they had the ball. Any raw scoring advantage Kareem had is just blown away by the fact that Shaq was a vertical nightmare on the putback/lob threat, and horizontal on the deep catch threat. Defenses would have a much easier time putting up a natural, reasonable defensive scheme against Kareem as opposed to Shaq.

Patently false. There are full games of Jabbar on YouTube from the early 1970s, I suggest you watch some.

From my observations, this theory doesn't add up at all. Kareem faced A LOT of defensive attention without the ball. Opposing players were often sucked into the paint by Kareem's sheer presence. His gravity was huge, tangible thing.

Spot on.

From 1970-71 to 1972-73 Jabbar scored 32 pts/g shooting 57%. Other than Wilt Chamberlain shooting 62% (but scoring just 16 pts/g), no other C during those 3 seasons shot even 52%, and no other C scored more than 22 pts/g over the 3 seasons (Lanier was 2nd best at 21.7 pts/g).

All Cs other than Jabbar and Chamberlain over the 3 seasons shot a combined 45.5% on 2s.

So think about it - not only was Jabbar scoring far more than any other C, but he was shooting 11%-12% better than all other Cs combined other than Chamberlain.

His first 7 years in the league (1969-70 to 1975-76) Jabbar had 7 of the top 10 scoring seasons by a C (Bob McAdoo had the other 3), scoring between 27-35 pts/g each year. No other C during that entire 7 year stretch (other than McAdoo) scored even 25 pts/g, and only 4 times scored more than 23 pts/g.

Over those 7 seasons Jabbar averaged 30 pts/g playing 43 min/g (549 regular season games).

He was as unstoppable and dominant as a player could possibly ever be - just like Chamberlain was the first half of his career.

And this was during a time of some really good defensive Cs that Jabbar faced 5-6 times each in the regular season, like Chamberlain, Nate Thurmond, Dave Cowens, Elmore Smith, Willis Reed, Bob Lanier, Wes Unseld, and Clifford Ray.

Last season and this season (2020-21 and 2021-22) the average C shot 59% on 2s. So imagine if Rudy Gobert, who shot 69% on 2s this season and last, instead of scoring 15 pts/g like he has, scored 30+ pts/g.

That's how dominant Jabbar was.

I remember many times in the 70s Jabbar being double teamed in the post just to prevent an entry pass to him because he was such a feared offensive weapon. He was as automatic for 2 points as any player ever. I can't think of another player in the early to mid-70s that drew so much attention from the opposition, with or without the ball.

Lastly, not only did Jabbar play more per game his first decade in the league than Shaq did (41 min/g vs. 38 min/g), he played in close to 100 more regular season games.

[feyki]

OGOAT - 63/67 Oscar, 86/90 Magic, 05/10 Nash, 21 Doncic
Off Top Peaks - 15/19,21 Curry, 17/20 Harden, 06/07, 09/11 Dirk, 84/88 Bird, 21 Jokic, 73,75 Nate, 09/10,13,17/18 LBJ, 92/95 RM
OPOY - 65/72 West, 88/97 MJ, 89/91,93/94 Barkley, 14,17/19,21 KD, 06 KB, 09/10 Wade, 02/03 T-Mac, 00/02 Ray, 52/53,56/57 Arizin, 58/60 Hagan, 56/60 Pettit, 17 IT, 19/21 Lilliard, 08/09,14/16 CP, 59/64 Baylor, 72,77 KAJ, 99/02 Shaq, 83/84 AD, 53/57 Cousy, 47/52 Davies.

[Top10alltime]

Ok, well time to rank these guys.

GOAT lvl offensive players:
1. Bron
2. Steph
3. Jordan
4. Nash
5. Magic
6. Jokic
7. Oscar

ATG - GOAT offensive players:
8. Shaq
9. Kareem (interchangeable with Shaq)
10. Harden

ATG offensive players:
11. Kobe
12. CP3
13. Durant
14. J. West
15. Dirk

Fringe ATG offensive players:
16. Luka
17. Barkley
18. Wade
19. K. Malone
20. Wilt

OPOY players:
21. Bird
22. Erving
23. Miller
24. Barry
25. Shai

This is as far as I go when ranking players. For players i'll add but haven't ranked yet...

M. Malone, Embiid, Giannis, Baylor, Gervin, Hakeem, Duncan, Westbrook, AI

I don't know past this