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CobraCommander wrote:

D.Brasco wrote:

Dupp wrote:I remember lebron doing it in the finals other than that it’s usually all star game. Can think of a Kobe and tmac one but I think they were in the all start game.

In the first clip it looks like Lebron travels before he dribbles - am I losing my mind but isn’t he taking a ton Of steps before he even starts the ally op ??

He’s still dribbling when he does that. Takes two steps after his dribble

So smart using this loophole, not allowed in FIBA games by the way.

Definitely one of the uglier off-the-backboard self dunk.

floppymoose wrote:He switched pivots at the very end and traveled.

It's not a travel call till the original pivot foot lands.

Everybody is debating if there should have been a travel call while I’m questioning if Tatum should have been called for a foul.

boycottlettuce wrote:

floppymoose wrote:He switched pivots at the very end and traveled.

For some reason, the NBA doesn't call this type of travel anymore, like at all. I don't know when that transition occured...maybe 5 years ago. But the rule used to be enforced all the time: get stuck, pivot, pump fake, pivot, then jump off of 2 feet. Kobe Bryant was great at this skill. But lately, everyone is traveling and moving closer to the basket or further away from the defender after being stuck by using that extra pivot switch and jumping off 1 foot, and it's just not getting called. It's just a dumb, pro-offense type rule bending.

It's not a travel. When on pivot foot it's basically considered a first step. By the textbook you are allowed a second step which is what he does.
Pivot foot, pivot all you want, then second step BUT you have to throw the ball before the pivot foot touches the floor again (pass or shoot).
So you either can pivot then take a normal step like Giannis does here (meaning his pivot foot leaves the floor) or you can pivot and jump with your two feet. Both are 2 steps and not 3.

What makes it so weird is that officiating is absolutely not consistent on this specific move. Sometime it's executed perfectly and they call a travel for some reason and on another occasion a player will take 2 full steps after pivot foot and the officials will not blow the whistle...

In the official rules (https://official.nba.com/rule-no-10-violations-and-penalties/) , see "Section XIII. d ": If a player, with the ball in his possession, raises his pivot foot off the floor, he must pass or shoot before his pivot foot returns to the floor. If he drops the ball while in the air, he may not be the first to touch the ball.

BadaBoom wrote:

boycottlettuce wrote:

floppymoose wrote:He switched pivots at the very end and traveled.

For some reason, the NBA doesn't call this type of travel anymore, like at all. I don't know when that transition occured...maybe 5 years ago. But the rule used to be enforced all the time: get stuck, pivot, pump fake, pivot, then jump off of 2 feet. Kobe Bryant was great at this skill. But lately, everyone is traveling and moving closer to the basket or further away from the defender after being stuck by using that extra pivot switch and jumping off 1 foot, and it's just not getting called. It's just a dumb, pro-offense type rule bending.

It's not a travel. When on pivot foot it's basically considered a first step. By the textbook you are allowed a second step which is what he does.
Pivot foot, pivot all you want, then second step BUT you have to throw the ball before the pivot foot touches the floor again (pass or shoot).
So you either can pivot then take a normal step like Giannis does here (meaning his pivot foot leaves the floor) or you can pivot and jump with your two feet. Both are 2 steps and not 3.

What makes it so weird is that officiating is absolutely not consistent on this specific move. Sometime it's executed perfectly and they call a travel for some reason and on another occasion a player will take 2 full steps after pivot foot and the officials will not blow the whistle...

In the official rules (https://official.nba.com/rule-no-10-violations-and-penalties/) , see "Section XIII. d ": If a player, with the ball in his possession, raises his pivot foot off the floor, he must pass or shoot before his pivot foot returns to the floor. If he drops the ball while in the air, he may not be the first to touch the ball.

I think the meaning of rule is different.
When you raise the pivot foot with a jump it is not travel if you throw the ball in the air before the pivot foot returns to the floor.
I think it is not legal if you take one more step(not a jump) using the other foot.
So, this is traveling because he does not jump with the pivot foot but takes another step with the other foot.
These are fundamentals rules for FIBA basketball, I don't know if it has changed lately

floppymoose wrote:He switched pivots at the very end and traveled.

Pivot foot resets once the ball is in the air. It's not one continuous move, it's two moves.

vagelis wrote:

BadaBoom wrote:

boycottlettuce wrote:
For some reason, the NBA doesn't call this type of travel anymore, like at all. I don't know when that transition occured...maybe 5 years ago. But the rule used to be enforced all the time: get stuck, pivot, pump fake, pivot, then jump off of 2 feet. Kobe Bryant was great at this skill. But lately, everyone is traveling and moving closer to the basket or further away from the defender after being stuck by using that extra pivot switch and jumping off 1 foot, and it's just not getting called. It's just a dumb, pro-offense type rule bending.

It's not a travel. When on pivot foot it's basically considered a first step. By the textbook you are allowed a second step which is what he does.
Pivot foot, pivot all you want, then second step BUT you have to throw the ball before the pivot foot touches the floor again (pass or shoot).
So you either can pivot then take a normal step like Giannis does here (meaning his pivot foot leaves the floor) or you can pivot and jump with your two feet. Both are 2 steps and not 3.

What makes it so weird is that officiating is absolutely not consistent on this specific move. Sometime it's executed perfectly and they call a travel for some reason and on another occasion a player will take 2 full steps after pivot foot and the officials will not blow the whistle...

In the official rules (https://official.nba.com/rule-no-10-violations-and-penalties/) , see "Section XIII. d ": If a player, with the ball in his possession, raises his pivot foot off the floor, he must pass or shoot before his pivot foot returns to the floor. If he drops the ball while in the air, he may not be the first to touch the ball.

I think the meaning of rule is different.
When you raise the pivot foot with a jump it is not travel if you throw the ball in the air before the pivot foot returns to the floor.
I think it is not legal if you take one more step(not a jump) using the other foot.
So, this is traveling because he does not jump with the pivot foot but takes another step with the other foot.
These are fundamentals rules for FIBA basketball, I don't know if it has changed lately

I think it's rather the opposite. In FIBA basketball the "normal" step after the pivot foot part is very much allowed and you see it more (though self-backboard pass without touching the rim is not allowed).
It's a basic fundamental that is taught a lot in europe. Somehow in the US it seams not to be the case as this particular play confuses a lot of people (even NBA refs).

I guess that the should clearly specify in the rulebook if a clean step is allowed after raising pivot foot or if it's clearly a penalty. If you read the rule it's not specified so it's kind of a grey zone, hence the different opinions on this and the lack of consistent officiating (which must be very frustrating as a player).

Dupp wrote:

CobraCommander wrote:

D.Brasco wrote:

In the first clip it looks like Lebron travels before he dribbles - am I losing my mind but isn’t he taking a ton Of steps before he even starts the ally op ??

He’s still dribbling when he does that. Takes two steps after his dribble

The taking 3 steps in between the ball touching the court between dribbles is always a mind **** - it’s legal but it always looks off to me.

txusto wrote:So smart using this loophole, not allowed in FIBA games by the way.

FIBA referee manager says not a travel

Plossum wrote:Not a travel. You’re allowed to lift the pivot foot, you just can’t reestablish it on the court.

I get that, but then he throws it to the backboard so he does reestablish it and continue the play. This is different from T-Mac and I honestly still don't know it it counts as travel or not.

timdunkit wrote:

floppymoose wrote:He switched pivots at the very end and traveled.

It's not a travel call till the original pivot foot lands.

Which does

BadaBoom wrote:It's not a travel. When on pivot foot it's basically considered a first step. By the textbook you are allowed a second step which is what he does.
Pivot foot, pivot all you want, then second step BUT you have to throw the ball before the pivot foot touches the floor again (pass or shoot).
So you either can pivot then take a normal step like Giannis does here (meaning his pivot foot leaves the floor) or you can pivot and jump with your two feet. Both are 2 steps and not 3.

What makes it so weird is that officiating is absolutely not consistent on this specific move. Sometime it's executed perfectly and they call a travel for some reason and on another occasion a player will take 2 full steps after pivot foot and the officials will not blow the whistle...

In the official rules (https://official.nba.com/rule-no-10-violations-and-penalties/) , see "Section XIII. d ": If a player, with the ball in his possession, raises his pivot foot off the floor, he must pass or shoot before his pivot foot returns to the floor. If he drops the ball while in the air, he may not be the first to touch the ball.

Well he WAS the first to touch it. Now what does the backboard count as??

this shouldn't be allowed. this is not a basketball move.

vagelis wrote:

BadaBoom wrote:

boycottlettuce wrote:
For some reason, the NBA doesn't call this type of travel anymore, like at all. I don't know when that transition occured...maybe 5 years ago. But the rule used to be enforced all the time: get stuck, pivot, pump fake, pivot, then jump off of 2 feet. Kobe Bryant was great at this skill. But lately, everyone is traveling and moving closer to the basket or further away from the defender after being stuck by using that extra pivot switch and jumping off 1 foot, and it's just not getting called. It's just a dumb, pro-offense type rule bending.

It's not a travel. When on pivot foot it's basically considered a first step. By the textbook you are allowed a second step which is what he does.
Pivot foot, pivot all you want, then second step BUT you have to throw the ball before the pivot foot touches the floor again (pass or shoot).
So you either can pivot then take a normal step like Giannis does here (meaning his pivot foot leaves the floor) or you can pivot and jump with your two feet. Both are 2 steps and not 3.

What makes it so weird is that officiating is absolutely not consistent on this specific move. Sometime it's executed perfectly and they call a travel for some reason and on another occasion a player will take 2 full steps after pivot foot and the officials will not blow the whistle...

In the official rules (https://official.nba.com/rule-no-10-violations-and-penalties/) , see "Section XIII. d ": If a player, with the ball in his possession, raises his pivot foot off the floor, he must pass or shoot before his pivot foot returns to the floor. If he drops the ball while in the air, he may not be the first to touch the ball.

I think the meaning of rule is different.
When you raise the pivot foot with a jump it is not travel if you throw the ball in the air before the pivot foot returns to the floor.
I think it is not legal if you take one more step(not a jump) using the other foot.
So, this is traveling because he does not jump with the pivot foot but takes another step with the other foot.
These are fundamentals rules for FIBA basketball, I don't know if it has changed lately

Absolutely not a travel, in any organization, at any time. You can step onto your non-pivot foot, lift your pivot foot and stand there like a flamingo on your non-pivot foot for as long as you want. You just have to pass or shoot before the pivot foot touches the floor again.

This is not switching pivot feet. A pivot foot means you can step in any direction and as many times as you want with your other foot, as long as the pivot foot remains stationary. When you step onto the non-pivot foot, you can't do that. You have to keep the pivot foot off the floor until you pass or shoot. The non-pivot foot doesn't become a pivot foot just because you are standing on it and lift the pivot foot. If you step onto the non-pivot foot, lift the pivot foot and then put the pivot back down, without shooting or passing, that's when it becomes a traveling violation.

This has ALWAYS been the case. Here's a video of Kareem doing a bunch of no-dribble sky hooks. In every one, he establishes a pivot foot then steps onto the opposite foot, lifting the pivot foot and swinging the pivot-foot leg in the air before shooting:


The WNBA's DeWanna Bonner is a master of this type of step through:



FIBA training video:


Ohio State High School referee training video. See the case at 4:53 in the video (4.44.3 Situation C). It shows stepping onto non-pivot foot, lifting the pivot foot and doing the flamingo standing on the non-pivot foot:


BTW, Jevon Carter tried this same footwork earlier in the game when matched up with Al Horford, with somewhat less successful results.

txusto wrote:So smart using this loophole, not allowed in FIBA games by the way.

Are you sure about the FIBA rule? I've never seen anyone attempt it in a FIBA game. I can remember 1 or 2 occasions where I went up in traffic, was out of control, threw up a layup that went too high and passed the rim without touching it, but then I chased the ball and turned it into a self alley oop. Was never called as a travel, but maybe that's because it came after a legit shot attempt. But I know that the airball travel rules are different over here compared to in the US.

Wait, can you lift your pivot foot and stand there like a flamingo? I thought you needed to start the motion of a pass or shot.

I don't honestly understand why this play is legal... The backboard means nothing right? If the ball hits it, there is no change of possession, no new shot clock etc... Why is it then allowed for player to throw it, make steps, and catch it again? If they threw it in the air and did the same it would be a travel.

Not saying it's not an awesome move, but i don't understand why it's not allowed.

Can anyone explain this to me?

THere's a Kobe one in the western conference finals but Giannis' dunk is a lot more vicious.