Peak Harden closer to peak Derozan or Jordan?

[YogurtProducer]

I would say Derozan. I never saw Harden as best player in the league material, He was maybe best offensive player in the league for 1 or 2 years, which is amazing, but his overall impact wasn't top 3 in the league ever IMO.

MJ averaged 35 ppg and won DPOY, i mean, yeah.

We gonna act like Harden didn’t average 36ppg one year…?

That wasn't a real 36 ppg gtfo with that. Convert that to 89 and remove ghost points maybe it's about 25ppg

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So demars actual points in 89 terms is what? 16ppg?

Harden averaged 36ppg when the league averaged 111. Jordan averaged 37ppg when the league averaged 110. Harden did it in 3 less minutes per game.

[jc23]

we talking just regular season right?

[GeorgeSears]

Harden probably should have 2-3 MVPs right now: 2017-2018, 2018-2019, for sure, and I would argue 2019-2020 as well.

He looked like a shell of himself last season, but don't forget the historically great 3-year stretch he had that no one will likely replicate.

[Drakeem]

Clearly MJ... Think of it this way... There is a chance that the Warriors defeat the "Jordan" Rockets like they did with Harden, but there is no way the DeRozan Rockets are even fighting the Warriors in the first place.

Peak Harden was a beast, even if his defence was suspect. But DD is just not close to the caliber of Harden, Harden is closer to the caliber of Jordan.

Ding ding ding. DeRozan is so far behind these other two that it's not worth having the conversation.

[formula 400]

peak harden is like peak mj???? wtf????????!!!

MJ WAS THE BADDEST MAN EVER ON THE PLANET, peak harden on the 90s bulls doesn't win a damn thing. LOL WTF

[bebopdeluxe]

Is this a troll post?

DeRozan's best WS season (2015-16) was a 9.9. Harden had a 5-year stretch (2014-15 to 2018-19) where he AVERAGED 15 WS per season.

DeRozan was a 3 VORP player. Harden was an EIGHT VORP player.

The Harden hate on this board knows no bounds.

[bebopdeluxe]

We gonna act like Harden didn’t average 36ppg one year…?

That wasn't a real 36 ppg gtfo with that. Convert that to 89 and remove ghost points maybe it's about 25ppg

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That... isnt how that works. What an awful take.

I wouldn't even respond to that take. I just put the guy on "ignore" so I don't have to see his takes anymore.

[FreeThrowLine]

It's a strange comparison and that's not to take a shot (no pun intended) at any of the players, but there's too many differences for me to see the point in making a comparison

Defense

1 guy is considered elite in defensive IQ, effort and results
The other 2 are considered below average in all those categories

Offense

All 3 are in the top of the league however they go about it in a very different way
1 guy shoots a LOT of 3's
The other 2 barely rely/relied on 3's

1 guy uses a lot of dribble moves to isolate his defender and then get them off balance reaching so he can drive past them OR step back
The other 2 work more in the mid-range and use footwork/pump fakes to get their defender off balance

It would make more sense if the question was formatted to compare DD/Kobe/Jordan

[NBA4Lyfe]

If MJ is 99 then peak Harden was about 78 and DeRozan 60. He's closer to DeRozan.

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you dont know what you are talking about

harden just had a season that was a down year but steve nash won mvp over prime kobe and young lebron with those numbers

[NBA4Lyfe]

We gonna act like Harden didn’t average 36ppg one year…?

That wasn't a real 36 ppg gtfo with that. Convert that to 89 and remove ghost points maybe it's about 25ppg

Sent from my SM-S908W using RealGM mobile app

So demars actual points in 89 terms is what? 16ppg?

Harden averaged 36ppg when the league averaged 111. Jordan averaged 37ppg when the league averaged 110. Harden did it in 3 less minutes per game.

harden also broke ben taylors per 75 scoring metric in 2019

Watch on YouTube

[Jfh20]

so sick of people puttin harden near MJ and Wade... like just stop

[SecondTake]

That wasn't a real 36 ppg gtfo with that. Convert that to 89 and remove ghost points maybe it's about 25ppg

Sent from my SM-S908W using RealGM mobile app

That... isnt how that works. What an awful take.

I wouldn't even respond to that take. I just put the guy on "ignore" so I don't have to see his takes anymore.

Nice bringing cancel culture to a forum where the whole point of to have discussions with people of different viewpoints.

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[SecondTake]

If MJ is 99 then peak Harden was about 78 and DeRozan 60. He's closer to DeRozan.

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you dont know what you are talking about

harden just had a season that was a down year but steve nash won mvp over prime kobe and young lebron with those numbers

I'm not saying prime garden wasn't great. I would have LeBron an 90 and kaj a 89 and I consider then the second and third best players ever. There's an enormous Gulf between MJ and everyone else though and that's why harden isn't close

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[bebopdeluxe]

It's a strange comparison and that's not to take a shot (no pun intended) at any of the players, but there's too many differences for me to see the point in making a comparison

Defense

1 guy is considered elite in defensive IQ, effort and results
The other 2 are considered below average in all those categories

Offense

All 3 are in the top of the league however they go about it in a very different way
1 guy shoots a LOT of 3's
The other 2 barely rely/relied on 3's

1 guy uses a lot of dribble moves to isolate his defender and then get them off balance reaching so he can drive past them OR step back
The other 2 work more in the mid-range and use footwork/pump fakes to get their defender off balance

It would make more sense if the question was formatted to compare DD/Kobe/Jordan

While I recognize that some defensive metrics are less than perfect, DeMar DeRozan - with the exception of his 0.1 DBPM in 2018-19 - has been a negative DBPM player EVERY SEASON OF HIS CAREER. His career DBPM is -0.8. That's bad.

Conversely, James Harden has been a positive DBPM player EVERY SEASON OF HIS CAREER. His career DBPM is 0.9.

Demar DeRozan has 22.9 career defensive Win Shares. James Harden has 37.5 career defensive Win Shares.

I am not suggesting that Harden has been screwed out of any All-Defense nods, but - at least based on some advanced metrics - he has been a significantly better - or DeRozan has been a significantly worse - defensive player.

I mean, what is it with this forum? I get it. People HATE Harden. They hate his flopping. They hate how he forced his way off of teams. However, James Harden had a 5 to 7 year stretch where not only was he the best offensive player in basketball, but as some posters have pointed out, his 3-year BPM stretch of over 10 is historical in nature - equal to prime KD, and with only Jordan and LeBron above them.

DeMar DeRozan? Really?

Every time I think the GB has had a thread where I say, "this is THE all-time clown thread", there is another level to be unlocked.

[YogurtProducer]

It's a strange comparison and that's not to take a shot (no pun intended) at any of the players, but there's too many differences for me to see the point in making a comparison

Defense

1 guy is considered elite in defensive IQ, effort and results
The other 2 are considered below average in all those categories

Offense

All 3 are in the top of the league however they go about it in a very different way
1 guy shoots a LOT of 3's
The other 2 barely rely/relied on 3's

1 guy uses a lot of dribble moves to isolate his defender and then get them off balance reaching so he can drive past them OR step back
The other 2 work more in the mid-range and use footwork/pump fakes to get their defender off balance

It would make more sense if the question was formatted to compare DD/Kobe/Jordan

MJ/Harden are on a different stratosphere than Demar scoring the basketball. Derozan is also on another level of horrible defensively.

[bebopdeluxe]

That... isnt how that works. What an awful take.

I wouldn't even respond to that take. I just put the guy on "ignore" so I don't have to see his takes anymore.

Nice bringing cancel culture to a forum where the whole point of to have discussions with people of different viewpoints.

Sent from my SM-S908W using RealGM mobile app

There is a reason for the "ignore" function on the GB. It is so I can choose to ignore people with ridiculous takes.

Bye.

[LarsV8]

There is like 3 players ever in the discussion with Offensive Peak Harden.

[ODanseTron]

Tough question. Harden is not even close to Jordan's level, but he is also a good bit better than DeRozan. Outside of this monster season DeRozan just had, he's basically been all-star level, never a top 5 MVP level superstar. If you had to rate them Jordan would get a rating of 100, Harden 92, DeRozan 84 or so.

[FreeThrowLine]

It's a strange comparison and that's not to take a shot (no pun intended) at any of the players, but there's too many differences for me to see the point in making a comparison

Defense

1 guy is considered elite in defensive IQ, effort and results
The other 2 are considered below average in all those categories

Offense

All 3 are in the top of the league however they go about it in a very different way
1 guy shoots a LOT of 3's
The other 2 barely rely/relied on 3's

1 guy uses a lot of dribble moves to isolate his defender and then get them off balance reaching so he can drive past them OR step back
The other 2 work more in the mid-range and use footwork/pump fakes to get their defender off balance

It would make more sense if the question was formatted to compare DD/Kobe/Jordan

While I recognize that some defensive metrics are less than perfect, DeMar DeRozan - with the exception of his 0.1 DBPM in 2018-19 - has been a negative DBPM player EVERY SEASON OF HIS CAREER. His career DBPM is -0.8. That's bad.

Conversely, James Harden has been a positive DBPM player EVERY SEASON OF HIS CAREER. His career DBPM is 0.9.

Demar DeRozan has 22.9 career defensive Win Shares. James Harden has 37.5 career defensive Win Shares.

I am not suggesting that Harden has been screwed out of any All-Defense nods, but - at least based on some advanced metrics - he has been a significantly better - or DeRozan has been a significantly worse - defensive player.

I mean, what is it with this forum? I get it. People HATE Harden. They hate his flopping. They hate how he forced his way off of teams. However, James Harden had a 5 to 7 year stretch where not only was he the best offensive player in basketball, but as some posters have pointed out, his 3-year BPM stretch of over 10 is historical in nature - equal to prime KD, and with only Jordan and LeBron above them.

DeMar DeRozan? Really?

Every time I think the GB has had a thread where I say, "this is THE all-time clown thread", there is another level to be unlocked.

I have no idea what you're on about, because you clearly haven't understood the purpose of my post

1. Nowhere did I say DD is a better basketball player than Harden
2. You call pull any bs stat you like that tries to convince people that Harden is an above average defensive player, but he's not

My point, which I thought was very clear, was that it makes no sense to compare players that have a very different style of play and somehow you turned it into something else in your mind and had a hissy fit

[FreeThrowLine]

It's a strange comparison and that's not to take a shot (no pun intended) at any of the players, but there's too many differences for me to see the point in making a comparison

Defense

1 guy is considered elite in defensive IQ, effort and results
The other 2 are considered below average in all those categories

Offense

All 3 are in the top of the league however they go about it in a very different way
1 guy shoots a LOT of 3's
The other 2 barely rely/relied on 3's

1 guy uses a lot of dribble moves to isolate his defender and then get them off balance reaching so he can drive past them OR step back
The other 2 work more in the mid-range and use footwork/pump fakes to get their defender off balance

It would make more sense if the question was formatted to compare DD/Kobe/Jordan

MJ/Harden are on a different stratosphere than Demar scoring the basketball. Derozan is also on another level of horrible defensively.

1. Both DD and Harden are below average defenders
2. My post is referring to the pointlessness of the players chosen due to the stylistic differences in their games