RealGM

Both guys were Top 3 MVP candidates for a decade. That's pretty good. And won quite a few too. Obviously, neither are on KG's level defensively, but KG is not on their level offensively. Garnett had the misfortune of playing on mediocre teams in a loaded Western conference during his prime years.

Idc about accolades and team success and it sounds like you’re implying that Magic and bird are greater than KG because they got to play in championship situations longer than kg did which I find silly

But where do you rank them? (Bonus if you give me your t25 players ever)

I like this list--not because I agree with everything [I am much lower on Kobe] but because it has a lot of consistency.

Colbinii wrote:I like this list--not because I agree with everything [I am much lower on Kobe] but because it has a lot of consistency.

I am very consistent!

ceoofkobefans wrote:I’m bored so here’s my top 50 players ever. Please tell me what you would change and how you like the list I’m bored and want People to talk to me

1. LeBron James
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Michael Jordan

4. Shaquille O’Neal
5. Tim Duncan
6. Kobe Bryant
7. Hakeem Olajuwon

8. Wilt Chamberlain
9. Bill Russell

10. Kevin Garnett
11. Larry Bird
12. Magic Johnson

13. Karl Malone
14. Steph curry
15. Oscar Robertson
16. Chris Paul
17. Dirk Nowitzki
18. Jerry West
19. Kevin Durant
20. David Robinson

21. Dwyane Wade
22. Steve Nash
23. Julius Erving
24. Charles Barkley
25. James Harden

26. John Stockton
27. Patrick Ewing
28. Moses Malone
29. Scottie Pippen
30. Reggie Miller

31. Jason Kidd
32. Rick Barry
33. John Havlicek
34. Giannis Antetokoumnpo
35. Kawhi Leonard

36. Anthony Davis
37. Russell Westbrook
38. Walt Frazier
39. Dwight Howard
40. Elgin Baylor
41. Kevin McHale
42. Paul Pierce

43. Ray Allen
44. Allen Iverson
45. Gary Payton
46. Clyde Drexler
47. George Gervin
48. Isiah Thomas
49. Alonzo Mourning
50. Tracy McGrady

Kobe 6/KG 10/Curry 14/CP3 16/Giannis 34
A big span over the 5. What are your top 3 weighing factors?

ceoofkobefans wrote:Idc about accolades and team success and it sounds like you’re implying that Magic and bird are greater than KG because they got to play in championship situations longer than kg did which I find silly

But where do you rank them? (Bonus if you give me your t25 players ever)

Individual accolades don't count? So if you're on a very good team, and have individual success, no bueno. I personally don't view things as some video game where we get to pluck guys from across eras and imagine what they'd be like with a certain team or situation.

I personally have both Magic and Bird in my Top 10. But, again, to each his own.

CharityStripe34 wrote:

ceoofkobefans wrote:Idc about accolades and team success and it sounds like you’re implying that Magic and bird are greater than KG because they got to play in championship situations longer than kg did which I find silly

But where do you rank them? (Bonus if you give me your t25 players ever)

Individual accolades don't count? So if you're on a very good team, and have individual success, no bueno. I personally don't view things as some video game where we get to pluck guys from across eras and imagine what they'd be like with a certain team or situation.

I personally have both Magic and Bird in my Top 10. But, again, to each his own.

I’m looking At how good they actually are and not blaming them for not playing on championship teams or going against a better team lol that’s silly

CharityStripe34 wrote:

ceoofkobefans wrote:Idc about accolades and team success and it sounds like you’re implying that Magic and bird are greater than KG because they got to play in championship situations longer than kg did which I find silly

But where do you rank them? (Bonus if you give me your t25 players ever)

Individual accolades don't count? So if you're on a very good team, and have individual success, no bueno. I personally don't view things as some video game where we get to pluck guys from across eras and imagine what they'd be like with a certain team or situation.

I personally have both Magic and Bird in my Top 10. But, again, to each his own.

Well, it's a team sport - if you make zero attempt at seeing what individuals do within their context then what's the point? The just associate the best player with the best team (which is what people do anyway until they find something that goes against their narrative like Bill Russell).

OhayoKD wrote:

PistolPeteJR wrote:

ceoofkobefans wrote:
Where would you have him

Within the top 10 for sure. I can’t see any reason to have him out.

The reasoning for leaving him out is pretty obvious, even if you don't like the criterion

?

ceoofkobefans wrote:I’m bored so here’s my top 50 players ever. Please tell me what you would change and how you like the list I’m bored and want People to talk to me

1. LeBron James
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Michael Jordan

4. Shaquille O’Neal
5. Tim Duncan
6. Kobe Bryant
7. Hakeem Olajuwon

8. Wilt Chamberlain
9. Bill Russell

10. Kevin Garnett
11. Larry Bird
12. Magic Johnson

13. Karl Malone
14. Steph curry
15. Oscar Robertson
16. Chris Paul
17. Dirk Nowitzki
18. Jerry West
19. Kevin Durant
20. David Robinson

21. Dwyane Wade
22. Steve Nash
23. Julius Erving
24. Charles Barkley
25. James Harden

26. John Stockton
27. Patrick Ewing
28. Moses Malone
29. Scottie Pippen
30. Reggie Miller

31. Jason Kidd
32. Rick Barry
33. John Havlicek
34. Giannis Antetokoumnpo
35. Kawhi Leonard

36. Anthony Davis
37. Russell Westbrook
38. Walt Frazier
39. Dwight Howard
40. Elgin Baylor
41. Kevin McHale
42. Paul Pierce

43. Ray Allen
44. Allen Iverson
45. Gary Payton
46. Clyde Drexler
47. George Gervin
48. Isiah Thomas
49. Alonzo Mourning
50. Tracy McGrady

At a first glance, this list looks pretty similar to a Ben Taylor-esque list. Nothing wrong with that!

A few interesting placements for me -

Kobe at 6 feels high to me, but given that you're the CEO of Kobe fans, I won't contest I do feel like Kobe's statistical profile makes Kobe at 6 a tough sell, but I do acknowledge that Kobe (thanks to versatility, playoff scalability etc) is likely to be a better player than what the statistics would show.

Bill Russell - is the lower placement due to the fact that Russell played in an era that allows him to be a more dominant defender? In other words, do you look at somebody such as Garnett and think, "Russell couldn't have been that much better on defence, even though KG was a lot better on offence, so I can't place Russell a full tier or two higher?"

Erving/Moses seem lower than convention would normally dictate - is this (also) due to skillsets, or due to plus/minus data? IIRC, Erving's plus/minus profile is fairly underwhelming given his reputation (thank you Harvey Pollack!) so that does make sense, but if that's where your logic lies, I'm fairly certain Moses looked outstanding in the Sixers plus/minus data in the 80s. Not saying Moses needs to be in the top 20 or anything, but rather that it's something worth noting if that's part of your criteria.

A few of the older guys should probably be in the list, but if you choose to not rank them, that's understandable.

A couple of the younger guys seem higher than I would have thought. Kawhi, for example, had only played 576 regular season games prior to this year across 10 seasons, whilst only breaking 70 in two of them (3 if you count his rookie year playing 64/66 games). Is your list CORP based (possibly with a steeper curve than Ben's)? I feel like your list does value longevity, and Kawhi feels quite high using a longevity-based approach, but hey, that's just me. I haven't actually calculated it myself, so it's entirely possible Kawhi does deserve to be amidst such lofty company, because a healthy Kawhi is an absolute monster, but yeah, just wanted to see your thoughts.

On the whole, it's a really good list.

Oh, and *adjusts his homer spectacles* props on the friendly CP3 and Harden placements!

ceoofkobefans wrote:

CharityStripe34 wrote:

ceoofkobefans wrote:Idc about accolades and team success and it sounds like you’re implying that Magic and bird are greater than KG because they got to play in championship situations longer than kg did which I find silly

But where do you rank them? (Bonus if you give me your t25 players ever)

Individual accolades don't count? So if you're on a very good team, and have individual success, no bueno. I personally don't view things as some video game where we get to pluck guys from across eras and imagine what they'd be like with a certain team or situation.

I personally have both Magic and Bird in my Top 10. But, again, to each his own.

I’m looking At how good they actually are and not blaming them for not playing on championship teams or going against a better team lol that’s silly

No one ever blamed anyone ?

ceoofkobefans wrote:I’m bored so here’s my top 50 players ever. Please tell me what you would change and how you like the list I’m bored and want People to talk to me

1. LeBron James
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Michael Jordan

4. Shaquille O’Neal
5. Tim Duncan
6. Kobe Bryant
7. Hakeem Olajuwon

8. Wilt Chamberlain
9. Bill Russell

10. Kevin Garnett
11. Larry Bird
12. Magic Johnson

13. Karl Malone
14. Steph curry
15. Oscar Robertson
16. Chris Paul
17. Dirk Nowitzki
18. Jerry West
19. Kevin Durant
20. David Robinson

21. Dwyane Wade
22. Steve Nash
23. Julius Erving
24. Charles Barkley
25. James Harden

26. John Stockton
27. Patrick Ewing
28. Moses Malone
29. Scottie Pippen
30. Reggie Miller

31. Jason Kidd
32. Rick Barry
33. John Havlicek
34. Giannis Antetokoumnpo
35. Kawhi Leonard

36. Anthony Davis
37. Russell Westbrook
38. Walt Frazier
39. Dwight Howard
40. Elgin Baylor
41. Kevin McHale
42. Paul Pierce

43. Ray Allen
44. Allen Iverson
45. Gary Payton
46. Clyde Drexler
47. George Gervin
48. Isiah Thomas
49. Alonzo Mourning
50. Tracy McGrady

Not sure if your motive was seeking peer-approval (I can understand that). Most responders will judge it based on how closely it resembles their own, though. So compliments/criticisms hinge on how closely their criteria resembles your own.

I like my criteria. I've thought about it a fair bit; I can come present effective rhetoric for why my criteria is good/valid. Does that make it best?

That said, I think it's a decent list for the most part (especially nearer the top). That is: it's not terribly dissimilar from mine. I have the same 20 players in my top 20 at this point [if in slightly different order], and 9 of the same top 10. Within that range I'm a little lower on Kobe [and to a lesser degree Hakeem], little higher on Russell and Wilt and Magic. I'd bump Duncan up to 4th, too, and MJ just ahead of KAJ. I'm marginally higher on Dirk, too [meaningful longevity plays big in my criteria], and marginally higher on Robinson [because I feel he's a top 12(ish) peak of all-time, and he's got basically three consecutive years playing near that level].

In the 21-50 range.....
Again, I'd have a lot of the same names in this range, and often in somewhat similar positions. I'm slightly higher on Stockton [again: longevity], though oddly slightly lower on Reggie Miller [even though he was my favourite player at the time]. He's difficult to range, though, and I can certainly see the case for having him higher. Also slightly lower on Rick Barry [can't see 14 places separating him from Clyde Drexler, for example (or 10 places from Paul Pierce, for that matter)......they feel very comparable to me]. I'm somewhat lower on Russell Westbrook, too.

I suspect [at least by the time this current season finishes up] I'd have Giannis higher [probably in my top 25]. I didn't update my list after last season........34(ish) might be about right for an "as of '22" ranking.

The few guys I do NOT have in my top 50 are Alonzo Mourning, Tracy McGrady, Allen Iverson, George Gervin, and Isiah Thomas is probably just barely on the outside (to be fair: most of those guys are barely in your top 50 either).

The guys I WOULD have in there to replace them are mostly big men (it's historically a big man's game, after all):
Robert Parish [again: longevity, though I think he's a somewhat underrated player in general]
Dolph Schayes
Artis Gilmore (really similar player type and career arc to Dwight Howard, imo, but arguably with MORE individual and team accomplishments [if in a somewhat weaker era], and with BETTER longevity)
George Mikan
and especially Bob Pettit.

I browsed some replies and see you exclude 50's players [with the exception of Russell] due to lack of video/eye-test. I feel like there are some things you can take on faith and assumption, after putting together the few puzzle pieces of info we do have on Pettit......

We're talking about a guy who was 6'9", >230 lbs by the end of his career [took it upon himself to weight-train and get stronger, despite many in his era discouraging the practice], moves really well for a man that size (this much is apparent from the limited footage you've already mentioned yourself).......had a legit jump-shot [with fairly modern-looking shooting form] which he could take even out to 18-20' (this much is also apparent from the footage you refer to). Was a career 76.1% FT shooter [peaked at 82.0%], which is good for a big man even by modern standards.

He came into the league only 2 years earlier than Russell; he has NINE years that overlap with Russell [whom you have ranked #9], SEVEN years overlapping with Elgin Baylor [whom you have #40], FIVE years overlapping with Wilt [whom you have ranked #8], and FOUR years overlapping with Robertson and West [#15 and #18, respectively].
He was an All-Star all eleven seasons he played; was All-NBA 1st Team for 10 of them [2nd team the eleventh].
He was TWICE the league's MVP [one of those coming with prime Russell and prime Baylor in the league]. He has EIGHT total finishes in the top 4 in MVP voting, FIVE of those in a league that had BOTH Russell and Baylor around; THREE of them in a league that had Russell, Wilt, Robertson, West, and Baylor around.

If we look at estimated per 100 possession numbers [and rTS%] in the years he overlaps with these guys (disclaimer: yes, I realize box numbers grossly understate Russell's impact/importance).....

'57
Russell: 16.9 pts @ +0.03% rTS, 22.6 reb, 2.1 ast
Pettit: 31.2 pts @ +4.41% rTS, 18.45 reb, 2.4 ast

'58
Russell: 16.6 pts @ +1.62% rTS, 22.8 reb, 2.95 ast
Pettit: 27.3 pts @ +4.32% rTS, 19.3 reb, 2.5 ast

'59
Russell: 14.6 pts @ +3.52% rTS, 20.2 reb, 2.8 ast
Baylor: 25.4 pts @ +3.09% rTS, 15.3 reb, 4.2 ast
Pettit: 30.4 pts @ +6.18% rTS, 17.1 reb, 3.2 ast

'60
Russell: 15.1 pts @ +3.24% rTS, 19.9 reb, 3.1 ast
Wilt: 29.2 pts @ +2.93% rTS, 20.9 reb, 1.8 ast
Baylor: 28.6 pts @ +2.58% rTS, 15.85 reb, 3.35 ast
Pettit: 26.0 pts @ +4.70% rTS, 16.9 reb, 3.55 ast

'61
Russell: 13.7 pts @ -1.55% rTS, 19.3 reb, 2.8 ast
Wilt: 29.2 pts @ +4.98% rTS, 20.7 reb, 1.4 ast
West: 19.1 pts @ -0.10% rTS, 8.4 reb, 4.6 ast
Robertson: 27.9 pts @ +8.59% rTS, 9.2 reb, 8.9 ast
Baylor: 31.1 pts @ +2.91% rTS, 17.75 reb, 4.55 ast
Pettit: 26.0 pts @ +4.17% rTS, 18.9 reb, 3.2 ast

'62
Russell: 15.3 pts @ +0.99% rTS, 19.1 reb, 3.6 ast
Wilt: 38.0 pts @ +5.73% rTS, 19.4 reb, 1.8 ast
Robertson: 26.7 pts @ +7.56% rTS, 10.8 reb, 9.9 ast
West: 29.1 pts @ +4.57% rTS, 7.5 reb, 5.1 ast
Baylor: 33.6 pts @ +1.34% rTS, 16.3 reb, 4.1 ast
Pettit: 28.5 pts @ +4.38% rTS, 17.1 reb, 3.4 ast

'63
Russell: 14.1 pts @ -2.81% rTS, 19.9 reb, 3.75 ast
Wilt: 36.7 pts @ +5.75% rTS, 19.9 reb, 2.8 ast
Robertson: 25.9 pts @ +9.51% rTS, 9.6 reb, 8.7 ast
West: 28.05 pts @ +3.07% rTS, 7.2 reb, 5.8 ast
Baylor: 32.9 pts @ +2.63% rTS, 13.9 reb, 4.7 ast
Pettit: 30.1 pts @ +3.22% rTS, 16.0 reb, 3.3 ast

'64
Russell: 12.9 pts @ -2.34% rTS, 21.3 reb, 3.1 ast
Wilt: 33.3 pts @ +5.22% rTS, 20.2 reb, 4.6 ast
Robertson: 28.9 pts @ +9.12% rTS, 9.1 reb, 10.1 ast
West: 30.5 pts @ +7.67% rTS, 6.4 reb, 6.0 ast
Baylor: 27.0 pts @ +0.22% rTS, 12.7 reb, 4.7 ast
Pettit: 27.8 pts @ +5.01% rTS, 15.55 reb, 3.3 ast

'65
Russell: 12.3 pts @ -0.69% rTS, 21.0 reb, 4.6 ast
Wilt: 30.8 pts +3.40 % rTS, 20.4 reb, 3.0 ast
Robertson: 27.6 pts @ +8.25% rTS, 8.2 reb, 10.4 ast
West: 31.5 pts @ +9.35% rTS, 6.1 reb, 5.0 ast
Baylor: 27.7 pts @ -1.63% rTS, 13.1 reb, 3.9 ast
Pettit (his final season): 26.7 pts @ +3.15% rTS, 14.8 reb, 3.0 ast


You look at all of the above, and cannot guestimate an roughly appropriate spot for him in the top 50 (when the LOWEST rank of the other five guys is #40 [the other four all in the top 20])?

trex_8063 wrote:
Not sure if your motive was seeking peer-approval (I can understand that). Most responders will judge it based on how closely it resembles their own, though. So compliments/criticisms hinge on how closely their criteria resembles your own.

Wasn’t really looking for approval I know this forum makes their lists differently than i do for the most part (biggest Difference being the valuation of accolades) I was just bored and wanted to talk to people and felt nothing is better at getting people to talk Than the ol’ reliable all time list (which it did!) I’m glad this many people were interested in the list.

trex_8063 wrote:
That said, I think it's a decent list for the most part (especially nearer the top). That is: it's not terribly dissimilar from mine. I have the same 20 players in my top 20 at this point [if in slightly different order], and 9 of the same top 10. Within that range I'm a little lower on Kobe [and to a lesser degree Hakeem], little higher on Russell and Wilt and Magic. I'd bump Duncan up to 4th, too, and MJ just ahead of KAJ. I'm marginally higher on Dirk, too [meaningful longevity plays big in my criteria], and marginally higher on Robinson [because I feel he's a top 12(ish) peak of all-time, and he's got basically three consecutive years playing near that level].

Yes I think most people in this forum have Br in the 4-6 range and bean in the 11-15 range so I knew most would disagree there but Duncan is usually my 4 but i have become lower on old man Duncan lately and decided to give the nod to Shaq today (Shaq TD and Kobe are pretty close for me)

Kareem and MJ are interchangeable for me just chose Kareem since I love me some longevity

The whole 13-20 range for me is super close but I like Oscar over Dirk p4p and I think they’re very close longevity wise (Oscar could be argued over in that regard) so I put Oscar over Dirk.

Drob is someone I’ve become lower on recently because his longevity isn’t great and I have his peak more in the fringe t15 range than the fringe t10 but I can see him at 17-19 somewhat easily

trex_8063 wrote:
In the 21-50 range.....
Again, I'd have a lot of the same names in this range, and often in somewhat similar positions. I'm slightly higher on Stockton [again: longevity], though oddly slightly lower on Reggie Miller [even though he was my favourite player at the time]. He's difficult to range, though, and I can certainly see the case for having him higher. Also slightly lower on Rick Barry [can't see 14 places separating him from Clyde Drexler, for example (or 10 places from Paul Pierce, for that matter)......they feel very comparable to me]. I'm somewhat lower on Russell Westbrook, too.

I could see Stockton over harden and maybe Barkley for longevity purposes but I think harden and Chuck are solid mvp peaks with very good longevity so I’m giving them the nod

Why not? I think he’s gotta good edge on them peak wise and Barry was playing at a high level for about 12 years which is really tough for His era so I think his longevity is better than them as well. That 30s range is pretty contested so I could see him at like 35ish

I suspect [at least by the time this current season finishes up] I'd have Giannis higher [probably in my top 25]. I didn't update my list after last season........34(ish) might be about right for an "as of '22" ranking.

trex_8063 wrote: The few guys I do NOT have in my top 50 are Alonzo Mourning, Tracy McGrady, Allen Iverson, George Gervin, and Isiah Thomas is probably just barely on the outside (to be fair: most of those guys are barely in your top 50 either)

Do you have pre shot clock guys on your list? If so that’s prolly the disparity there (I chose to leave off schayes Mikan Pettit Cousy etc because there’s so little film and data on them it doesn’t seem fair to try and compare them to everyone else)

trex_8063 wrote: The guys I WOULD have in there to replace them are mostly big men (it's historically a big man's game, after all):
Robert Parish [again: longevity, though I think he's a somewhat underrated player in general]
Dolph Schayes
Artis Gilmore (really similar player type and career arc to Dwight Howard, imo, but arguably with MORE individual and team accomplishments [if in a somewhat weaker era], and with BETTER longevity)
George Mikan

And especially Bob Pettit

Ah! So you do have oldies on there that IS the disparity! To be fair Artis Gilmore was my first guy out and I very strongly considered him on my list. Robert parish that high is interesting. He usually pops up for me around the late 60s to late 70s but if a gun was put to my head and I had to make imo my most accurate t75 list he would probably be 72?

trex_8063 wrote: I browsed some replies and see you exclude 50's players [with the exception of Russell] due to lack of video/eye-test. I feel like there are some things you can take on faith and assumption, after putting together the few puzzle pieces of info we do have on Pettit......

Yea I just don’t like being so unsure on a guy we know so little about and have no way of knowing much other than like newspaper articles which idk how much I trust the takes of the people writing them whether based on honesty or iq.

We're talking about a guy who was 6'9", >230 lbs by the end of his career [took it upon himself to weight-train and get stronger, despite many in his era discouraging the practice], moves really well for a man that size (this much is apparent from the limited footage you've already mentioned yourself).......had a legit jump-shot [with fairly modern-looking shooting form] which he could take even out to 18-20' (this much is also apparent from the footage you refer to). Was a career 76.1% FT shooter [peaked at 82.0%], which is good for a big man even by modern standards.

He came into the league only 2 years earlier than Russell; he has NINE years that overlap with Russell [whom you have ranked #9], SEVEN years overlapping with Elgin Baylor [whom you have #40], FIVE years overlapping with Wilt [whom you have ranked #8], and FOUR years overlapping with Robertson and West [#15 and #18, respectively].
He was an All-Star all eleven seasons he played; was All-NBA 1st Team for 10 of them [2nd team the eleventh].
He was TWICE the league's MVP [one of those coming with prime Russell and prime Baylor in the league]. He has EIGHT total finishes in the top 4 in MVP voting, FIVE of those in a league that had BOTH Russell and Baylor around; THREE of them in a league that had Russell, Wilt, Robertson, West, and Baylor around.

If we look at estimated per 100 possession numbers [and rTS%] in the years he overlaps with these guys (disclaimer: yes, I realize box numbers grossly understate Russell's impact/importance).....

'57
Russell: 16.9 pts @ +0.03% rTS, 22.6 reb, 2.1 ast
Pettit: 31.2 pts @ +4.41% rTS, 18.45 reb, 2.4 ast

'58
Russell: 16.6 pts @ +1.62% rTS, 22.8 reb, 2.95 ast
Pettit: 27.3 pts @ +4.32% rTS, 19.3 reb, 2.5 ast

'59
Russell: 14.6 pts @ +3.52% rTS, 20.2 reb, 2.8 ast
Baylor: 25.4 pts @ +3.09% rTS, 15.3 reb, 4.2 ast
Pettit: 30.4 pts @ +6.18% rTS, 17.1 reb, 3.2 ast

'60
Russell: 15.1 pts @ +3.24% rTS, 19.9 reb, 3.1 ast
Wilt: 29.2 pts @ +2.93% rTS, 20.9 reb, 1.8 ast
Baylor: 28.6 pts @ +2.58% rTS, 15.85 reb, 3.35 ast
Pettit: 26.0 pts @ +4.70% rTS, 16.9 reb, 3.55 ast

'61
Russell: 13.7 pts @ -1.55% rTS, 19.3 reb, 2.8 ast
Wilt: 29.2 pts @ +4.98% rTS, 20.7 reb, 1.4 ast
West: 19.1 pts @ -0.10% rTS, 8.4 reb, 4.6 ast
Robertson: 27.9 pts @ +8.59% rTS, 9.2 reb, 8.9 ast
Baylor: 31.1 pts @ +2.91% rTS, 17.75 reb, 4.55 ast
Pettit: 26.0 pts @ +4.17% rTS, 18.9 reb, 3.2 ast

'62
Russell: 15.3 pts @ +0.99% rTS, 19.1 reb, 3.6 ast
Wilt: 38.0 pts @ +5.73% rTS, 19.4 reb, 1.8 ast
Robertson: 26.7 pts @ +7.56% rTS, 10.8 reb, 9.9 ast
West: 29.1 pts @ +4.57% rTS, 7.5 reb, 5.1 ast
Baylor: 33.6 pts @ +1.34% rTS, 16.3 reb, 4.1 ast
Pettit: 28.5 pts @ +4.38% rTS, 17.1 reb, 3.4 ast

'63
Russell: 14.1 pts @ -2.81% rTS, 19.9 reb, 3.75 ast
Wilt: 36.7 pts @ +5.75% rTS, 19.9 reb, 2.8 ast
Robertson: 25.9 pts @ +9.51% rTS, 9.6 reb, 8.7 ast
West: 28.05 pts @ +3.07% rTS, 7.2 reb, 5.8 ast
Baylor: 32.9 pts @ +2.63% rTS, 13.9 reb, 4.7 ast
Pettit: 30.1 pts @ +3.22% rTS, 16.0 reb, 3.3 ast

'64
Russell: 12.9 pts @ -2.34% rTS, 21.3 reb, 3.1 ast
Wilt: 33.3 pts @ +5.22% rTS, 20.2 reb, 4.6 ast
Robertson: 28.9 pts @ +9.12% rTS, 9.1 reb, 10.1 ast
West: 30.5 pts @ +7.67% rTS, 6.4 reb, 6.0 ast
Baylor: 27.0 pts @ +0.22% rTS, 12.7 reb, 4.7 ast
Pettit: 27.8 pts @ +5.01% rTS, 15.55 reb, 3.3 ast

'65
Russell: 12.3 pts @ -0.69% rTS, 21.0 reb, 4.6 ast
Wilt: 30.8 pts +3.40 % rTS, 20.4 reb, 3.0 ast
Robertson: 27.6 pts @ +8.25% rTS, 8.2 reb, 10.4 ast
West: 31.5 pts @ +9.35% rTS, 6.1 reb, 5.0 ast
Baylor: 27.7 pts @ -1.63% rTS, 13.1 reb, 3.9 ast
Pettit (his final season): 26.7 pts @ +3.15% rTS, 14.8 reb, 3.0 ast

trex_8063 wrote: You look at all of the above, and cannot guestimate an roughly appropriate spot for him in the top 50 (when the LOWEST rank of the other five guys is #40 [the other four all in the top 20])?

If you forced me to rank Pettit he would probably pop up in the late 20s to early 30s so there’s that

The issue with Pettit is less with when he played and more of the fact that there’s literally no film on him

When 70sFan breaks into the vault and starts uploading Significant amounts of Pettit film onto YT or Patreon I will certainly watch it and evaluate him based on it! (Same with schayes and Cousy who were starting to get more film of)

Poor Russ never gets his due

You don’t think 35 is high enough for Russ? I personally think that’s as high as he can get

mj
lebron
kaj
wilt
magic
bird
giannis (and quickly moving up)
russell
shaq
curry
hakeem
durant
duncan
dwade
kobe
chuck
malone
robinson
kg
stockton
jokic (and quickly rising)

that's my top 21 and i'll stop there

SeattleJazzFan wrote:mj
lebron
kaj
wilt
magic
bird
giannis (and quickly moving up)
russell
shaq
curry
hakeem
durant
duncan
dwade
kobe
chuck
malone
robinson
kg
stockton
jokic (and quickly rising)

that's my top 21 and i'll stop there

Is this in order??

PistolPeteJR wrote:

OhayoKD wrote:

PistolPeteJR wrote:
Within the top 10 for sure. I can’t see any reason to have him out.

The reasoning for leaving him out is pretty obvious, even if you don't like the criterion

?

l o n g e v i t y

CharityStripe34 wrote:

ceoofkobefans wrote:Idc about accolades and team success and it sounds like you’re implying that Magic and bird are greater than KG because they got to play in championship situations longer than kg did which I find silly

But where do you rank them? (Bonus if you give me your t25 players ever)

Individual accolades don't count? So if you're on a very good team, and have individual success, no bueno. I personally don't view things as some video game where we get to pluck guys from across eras and imagine what they'd be like with a certain team or situation.

I personally have both Magic and Bird in my Top 10. But, again, to each his own.

You don't need to engage in hypotheticals. You just need to not use "win a ring" as an arbitrary cut-off for whether "what a player does" should be considered. Isolating the individual player and "what they did", 2004 isn't hard to argue as a better peak than magic or bird's and then kg has a significant longevity advantage. As far as "what they did" over the course of their careers, KG probably contributed more to winning accumulatively.

Perfectly fine to disagree, but its hardly "lol-worthy" to zero-in on the basketball

ceoofkobefans wrote:You don’t think 35 is high enough for Russ? I personally think that’s as high as he can get

I meant Bill Russell