Truth or False: James Harden is currently a top 10 player again?

[NBA4Lyfe]

He's playing very well but not top 10. There are a lot of elite players right now. Sometimes I think a guy must be top 10 and then I count them out and there are more "top 10 players" than spots in the actual top 10 haha.

it just seems like people ignore the advanced stats when it comes to harden, and i dont know why

like harden is still probably the most double teamed player in the league

https://nbacourtoptix.nba.com/en/metrics/double-teams

18th in VORP, 18th in WS, 14th in BPM, 10th in WS/48, 18th in PER, 8th in RPM, 31st in RPM WINS...

He's missed a lot of games. His box metrics don't make a case for top 10. The real plus minus stuff is likely too small a sample with him to get much. The general view is his defense is terrible this year.

Nobody is ignore stats with Harden.

You are using games played stats

How about mine

5th in total raptor, 10th in win shares per 48, 9th in epm and 8th in rpm

[eyriq]

Top 30 I'd say. To put a specific number on it I'd say 24th, sandwiched between Porzingis and Sabonis.

[NBA4Lyfe]

He has finally surpassed Melton as our 2nd best player, I think he is just top 20-ish though.

Harden is 5th in total raptor

Watch at what happens when hardens stats are qualify eligible. He will probably be ranked higher than embiid on bbref nba mvp tracker

[NBA4Lyfe]

Top 30 I'd say. To put a specific number on it I'd say 24th, sandwiched between Porzingis and Sabonis.

Do you have stats on your side to make your argument

Because I have stats to make mine

[dhsilv2]

it just seems like people ignore the advanced stats when it comes to harden, and i dont know why

like harden is still probably the most double teamed player in the league

https://nbacourtoptix.nba.com/en/metrics/double-teams

18th in VORP, 18th in WS, 14th in BPM, 10th in WS/48, 18th in PER, 8th in RPM, 31st in RPM WINS...

He's missed a lot of games. His box metrics don't make a case for top 10. The real plus minus stuff is likely too small a sample with him to get much. The general view is his defense is terrible this year.

Nobody is ignore stats with Harden.

You are using games played stats

How about mine

5th in total raptor, 10th in win shares per 48, 9th in epm and 8th in rpm

Games played are a huge part of who people rank in their top 10. You're trying to start with an answer you want to get to and not using the data to inform you.

[NBA4Lyfe]

That stat doesn't really pass the eye test to me. I'd be curious on what they use as their criteria for a double team. Presumably a lot of standard pick and roll coverages (anything but a switch) end up qualifying based on the numbers they have.

I think that's a little different then say, Embiid, who frequently gets doubled the second he catches the ball inside of the 3 point line.

Teams aren't throwing 2 guys at Harden just to get the ball out of his hands.

See this kind of response is what I’m talking about. You see the stat but because it doesn’t fit your narrative you don’t accept it. This is why harden is not a 3 time mvp and hasn’t made all nba in 3 years. This bias among certain or most nba voters hurts players like harden in the long run. And cost them potential supermax contracts

What narrative would that be? I watch him play every game. I wouldn't say he gets doubled anywhere near as frequently as Embiid, so I'm questioning what they consider a double team. Their criteria seems extremely loose based on the percentages they have for most of those guys.

but the numbers say he DOES, so it doesnt matter what you "THINK", i dont blame you though, nba voters moved the goalpost on harden for years to rob him of accolades

[NBA4Lyfe]

Jokic was the best player on the floor in the playoffs last year. His team lost...but his was spectacular.

STOP Jokic was literally taken off the court late in the 4th quarter of multiple playoff games because Poole and curry we’re destroying him on switches

Playoffs don’t matter in context to mvp and all nba selections

How many centers does Curry not destroy in switches? He dropped 40 on elite Celtics defense in the finals.

curry isnt the only guard that torches jokic, harden used to do it for years

but thats not what im making this thread about, im talking about harden potentially purusing legal action if he is robbed of an all nba team this year and robbing him of an age 33 plus supermax

[eyriq]

Top 30 I'd say. To put a specific number on it I'd say 24th, sandwiched between Porzingis and Sabonis.

Do you have stats on your side to make your argument

Because I have stats to make mine

One approach is to use some box score stats, whether from per game, per 100 possessions, or advanced data sets. After centering and scaling you can weight those stats and take a combination to create an index of box score effectiveness if you will. That is the approach I used here.

I prefer RPM and RAPTOR, etc, so I love your approach, it's just hard to get this dataset.

Looking at it another way I see him in the top 10, at #9, between Durant and Curry. Sabonis is 3rd and Butler 5th, with Joker #1.

Seems that Harden is showing insane intangibles this year.

[dygaction]

No he's not. There's a lot of guys who's are having great seasons. Here's the players I think are clearly better than Harden.

1 Giannis
2. Luka
3. Jokic
4. Joel Emiid
5. Jayson Tatum
6. Kevin Durant
7. Stephen Curry
8. JA Morant
9. Zion Williamson
10. Damian Lilliard
11. Donovan Mitchell

Players that are closer to his level, but a bit better than him

12. Devin Brooker
13. Paul George
14. Pascal Siakam
15. Jimmy Butler
16. Jaylen Brown


So this would put Harden around the 17-22 range. In range of someone like Tyrese Halliburton, Demar Derozan, Kyrie Irving, Luari Markkanen etc. He's playing much better than he did last season, where he looked washed. However there's too many players who's having great seasons.

SGA should be somewhere. LeBron and AD when healthy are at least as good as if not better than Harden.

[NBA4Lyfe]

Top 30 I'd say. To put a specific number on it I'd say 24th, sandwiched between Porzingis and Sabonis.

Do you have stats on your side to make your argument

Because I have stats to make mine

One approach is to use some box score stats, whether from per game, per 100 possessions, or advanced data sets. After centering and scaling you can weight those stats and take a combination to create an index of box score effectiveness if you will. That is the approach I used here.

I prefer RPM and RAPTOR, etc, so I love your approach, it's just hard to get this dataset.

Looking at it another way I see him in the top 10, at #9, between Durant and Curry. Sabonis is 3rd and Butler 5th, with Joker #1.

Seems that Harden is showing insane intangibles this year.

per game is why i prefer rpm, epm, and raptor as well

[youngcrev]

See this kind of response is what I’m talking about. You see the stat but because it doesn’t fit your narrative you don’t accept it. This is why harden is not a 3 time mvp and hasn’t made all nba in 3 years. This bias among certain or most nba voters hurts players like harden in the long run. And cost them potential supermax contracts

What narrative would that be? I watch him play every game. I wouldn't say he gets doubled anywhere near as frequently as Embiid, so I'm questioning what they consider a double team. Their criteria seems extremely loose based on the percentages they have for most of those guys.

but the numbers say he DOES, so it doesnt matter what you "THINK", i dont blame you though, nba voters moved the goalpost on harden for years to rob him of accolades

I forgot I'm on the general board where reading comprehension isn't a strong suit and people just have preloaded responses.

What do you consider a double team? What is the criteria that they use?

Seems subjective to me, but maybe I'm crazy. Me questioning the stat has very little to do with Harden and very much to do with the very generous percentages they have for all of those guys.

[dhsilv2]

Do you have stats on your side to make your argument

Because I have stats to make mine

One approach is to use some box score stats, whether from per game, per 100 possessions, or advanced data sets. After centering and scaling you can weight those stats and take a combination to create an index of box score effectiveness if you will. That is the approach I used here.

I prefer RPM and RAPTOR, etc, so I love your approach, it's just hard to get this dataset.

Looking at it another way I see him in the top 10, at #9, between Durant and Curry. Sabonis is 3rd and Butler 5th, with Joker #1.

Seems that Harden is showing insane intangibles this year.

per game is why i prefer rpm, epm, and raptor as well

None of those metrics are per game...

[rocketsfan100]

Top 12 to 17. I do think by season’s end he will be borderline top 10. He is averaging 23 points 13 assists 8 boards since he came back from injury. Just on this back to back games he averaged 27 points 13 assist 7 .

[ForeverTFC]

Most folks aren’t even putting him in the all-star game. How is top 10 even a discussion? I’m surprised he even got 15% of the votes here.

[rocketsfan100]

Most folks aren’t even putting him in the all-star game. How is top 10 even a discussion? I’m surprised he even got 15% of the votes here.

He is third in guards in the eastern conference voting. He is well and truly going to be in the all star game. Do a bit research. He is only behind Kyrie and Mitchell. Ahead of Brunson and Jaylen Brown

[scrabbarista]

No he's not. There's a lot of guys who's are having great seasons. Here's the players I think are clearly better than Harden.

1 Giannis
2. Luka
3. Jokic
4. Joel Emiid
5. Jayson Tatum
6. Kevin Durant
7. Stephen Curry
8. JA Morant
9. Zion Williamson
10. Damian Lilliard
11. Donovan Mitchell

Players that are closer to his level, but a bit better than him

12. Devin Brooker
13. Paul George
14. Pascal Siakam
15. Jimmy Butler
16. Jaylen Brown


So this would put Harden around the 17-22 range. In range of someone like Tyrese Halliburton, Demar Derozan, Kyrie Irving, Luari Markkanen etc. He's playing much better than he did last season, where he looked washed. However there's too many players who's having great seasons.

Don't take this personally. I'm just going to use your post to think out loud. I crossed out the guys who are injured right now. Markannen, Doncic, and possibly Morant have also all missed their most recent games.

I'd say only the top 7 on your list are 100% unquestionably better players than Harden. I'll give you 8-12, Butler, Brown, and Haliburton. Markannen's a maybe, but I'll give it to Harden. That makes 15 guys over Harden, with five of them injured. That would put Harden at somewhere between 11th and 16th. [EDIT: Plus SGA leaves Harden at 12th-17th.]

So, no, OP, I guess not quite. There's still hope he can get there by the end of the postseason, though. (Nobody @ me about Harden and the playoffs. Y'all know what I mean.)

[ForeverTFC]

Most folks aren’t even putting him in the all-star game. How is top 10 even a discussion? I’m surprised he even got 15% of the votes here.

He is third in guards in the eastern conference voting. He is well and truly going to be in the all star game. Do a bit research. He is only behind Kyrie and Mitchell. Ahead of Brunson and Jaylen Brown

Fan voting is your argument? Ha! Look at the media ballots from the good analysts. He’s not on them.

Giannis, Luka, Embiid, Tatum, Brown, Ja, Curry, Jokic, Mitchell, Durant. There’s 10 for you and Harden isn’t even close to being next. Do a bit of research.

[rocketsfan100]

Most folks aren’t even putting him in the all-star game. How is top 10 even a discussion? I’m surprised he even got 15% of the votes here.

He is third in guards in the eastern conference voting. He is well and truly going to be in the all star game. Do a bit research. He is only behind Kyrie and Mitchell. Ahead of Brunson and Jaylen Brown

Fan voting is your argument? Ha! Look at the media ballots from the good analysts. He’s not on them.

Giannis, Luka, Embiid, Tatum, Brown, Ja, Curry, Jokic, Mitchell, Durant. There’s 10 for you and Harden isn’t even close to being next. Do a bit of research.

You said folks are not voting him into the all star game and the fact is they are. It’s a fan vote. That’s how all star games are done. As for the media harden has never been liked by them. The fact he only got one MVP during 2015 to 2020 when he was a top 3 player almost every year says it all. I never said he is too 10 but he is at worst top 15

[NBA4Lyfe]

Most folks aren’t even putting him in the all-star game. How is top 10 even a discussion? I’m surprised he even got 15% of the votes here.

because they hate harden, harden has more career vorp, more win shares, winshares per 48 and a higher career bpm than steph curry despite starting his first 3 seasons on the bench. But nobody would know that just based on narrative

also how can curry be miles ahead of harden this year, when curry has only played 29 games and harden has only played 28 lol Harden is having the better year while curry is contuining the tailoff

[facothomas22]

No he's not. There's a lot of guys who's are having great seasons. Here's the players I think are clearly better than Harden.

1 Giannis
2. Luka
3. Jokic
4. Joel Emiid
5. Jayson Tatum
6. Kevin Durant
7. Stephen Curry
8. JA Morant
9. Zion Williamson
10. Damian Lilliard
11. Donovan Mitchell

Players that are closer to his level, but a bit better than him

12. Devin Brooker
13. Paul George
14. Pascal Siakam
15. Jimmy Butler
16. Jaylen Brown


So this would put Harden around the 17-22 range. In range of someone like Tyrese Halliburton, Demar Derozan, Kyrie Irving, Luari Markkanen etc. He's playing much better than he did last season, where he looked washed. However there's too many players who's having great seasons.

SGA should be somewhere. LeBron and AD when healthy are at least as good as if not better than Harden.

I forgot to include SGA. My mistake. He's is around the 8-11 range. So that makes James Harden in the 18-23rd range. Far as Lebron, he is simply padding his stats on a losing team. There's a reason I didn't include him.