Did Russell Westbrook ruin the value of the triple double?

[Loneshot]

I don't think many fans care about much during the regular season. We have had so many amazing regular season performers who either do not make the playoffs or fail to be the same player once the playoffs come. Now it's more about if players can maintain their high level of play during the playoffs, then we are impressed.

[Blame Rasho]

No he didn’t.

When he got that triple double season it was an unbelievable achievement.

In overall inflation of stats this season in no way ruins what triple double signify we just have to acknowledge that it might be easier to do it in this and upcoming seasons.

[Michael Jackson]

A 6 foot 4 “guard” should not be averaging 10 rebounds a game.

A guard responsibility generally involves being the lead out for outlet passes by the center

So it was by design okc coaches to have Russell stay back when the ball is shot. Also obviously more 3 pointers means more balls bouncing away from the paint means more rebounds for perimeter players.

1) Russ is a great rebounder for a guard.

2) Adams could have been a generationally great rebounder, but sacrificed his own stats to box out and let Westbrook grab boards.

Also the way teams play is different. They don’t crash the offensive glass like they used to, as getting back on D for fast breaks is more priority. This has allowed guards in general to get more rebounds. It’s not just the big men down there now in position. As mentioned guys like Adams or Lopez will actually block out so the team is more apt to get rebounds.

[MavsDirk41]

Not sure Westbrook "ruined" the value of the triple double, he just normalized it to the point that if you aren't outdoing the bar he set, no one cares.

That, and this era is more inflated than the one Westbrook was playing in just 5 years ago. Its not just triple doubles. No one cares when dudes are dropping 40/50 points either. Everything is inflated.

This. Kyrie dropped 48 the other night and not a peep. Tatum dropped 51 last week and nothing. Luka gets a triple double almost weekly and nothing. Triple doubles are nice but you play to win a championship, not indiviual stats.

[Mickey8]

Watch on YouTube

Isiah Thomas knows who is posting up legit triple doubles.

[Bank Shot]

Nah. Just like with other achievements, it's being cheapened by today's playstyle. With so many teams going heliocentric, a triple-double is often just did X have a good rebounding night/get some extra uncontested rebounds.

[kuclas]

Nah. Just like with other achievements, it's being cheapened by today's playstyle. With so many teams going heliocentric, a triple-double is often just did X have a good rebounding night/get some extra uncontested rebounds.

Triple doubles increasing are like nfl quarterbacks completing at least 65% of their passes these days

In the old days of the 1960s/1970s. Only 1-2 quarterbacks would complete more than 60%. But now say a guy like baker mayfield (who was almost out of the nfl). He completed 62% of his passes in 2021 and that was only the worst completion percentage in the entire nfl. He was ranked 30th of all nfl quarterbacks for 2021. No wonder why he couldn’t find a team to play for in 2022 and was released before catching on with another team.

So various factors account for nfl qb completion rates (more shorter passes which helps jack up the numbers) along with more talented wide receivers catching difficult balls.

So the same reasoning can be applied to the nba.

More assists cause shooters are better.

Like a drop off handoff to a Steph curry or even jj reddick who nails a 3 point shot with zero spacing. That counts as assists even though dropping off the ball to then really isn’t even a real assist in my opinion.

[OfficialRef]

Yep. And he ruined the MVP too when it became more about stats+ narrative rather than actual on-court impact.

[Letsgokings]

Oh yeah big time but it wasn't just him. Adam silver helped kill off cool nba stats years ago.

[GreatWhiteStiff]

getting a trip dub is great for your team, just like scoring 40. but like scoring 40, theres a good way and a bad way to do it.

if anything, russ brought nuance to the triple double, since people dont think about it as some obviously incredible thing anymore

This. I'd call it a "winning triple double" vs a "stat padding triple double".

Westbrook had a tremendous win % when he trip doubles.

[JonFromVA]

The shortest guy on the floor isn't typically gifted the rebounds, just like the tallest guy is rarely gifted the assists on a team. Once those "rules" were broken the accomplishment was cheapened.

[dhsilv2]

The change the heliocentric offense did so....

[JN61]

Even after Wizards season Westbrook had something like 70%+ winning rate with triple double game... In OKC in his prime it was almost 80%. Stop using front loaded words and buying into cheap bad narratives.

[JN61]

getting a trip dub is great for your team, just like scoring 40. but like scoring 40, theres a good way and a bad way to do it.

if anything, russ brought nuance to the triple double, since people dont think about it as some obviously incredible thing anymore

This. I'd call it a "winning triple double" vs a "stat padding triple double".

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/russell-westbrook-triple-double-win-percentage

It's still all time great winning rate even after few years of being on terrible teams. Well even in 2017 that team supporting casts was one of the weakest in playoff team on 2010s.

So get that lazy weak narrative out of here.

[JN61]

No. Westbrook getting triple doubles on the Thunder was highly correlated with the team winning the game. It was still a valuable achievement.

What ruined it is exposure. Westbrook got triple doubles so often that it was no longer special because of how often it occurred. Humans naturally appreciate things less when they experience them more. It has nothing to do with Westbrook or basketball it's more of a human psychological phenomenon.

Basically the reason why you no longer care about triple doubles is the same reason that eating ice cream or going to a theme park is no longer as exciting as it used to be when you were a kid. You've been there and done that before so your brain no longer hits you with as much dopamine. That's all it is.

It's also worth noting that his winning rate hasn't been bad even after that:

With Rockets: 5-3: 62.5%
With Wizards: 22-16 57.9%
With Lakers: 7-7 50%

And these are the team records without Westbrook having the TD:
With Rockets: 39-25 60.9%
With Wizards: 12-22 35.3%
With Lakers: 48-67 41.7%

And when Westbrook didn't play records were:
7-7 50%
4-3 57.1%
2-5 28.6%

Wizards were basically dreadful without Westbrook playing near MVP level towards end of the season (he was their best player and they had like 2/3rd best record in the league last 30 something games). And both Lakers and Wizards teams were injure plagued. With Rockets we see least amount of benefit he had with them but on other hand sample size was so small because he was just scoring guard that season. And there is always some luck factor and noise with small sample sizes regardless what it is in these cases. But this all shows how adaptive he has been thorough his career. He does what he is asked to and regardless of the big time player, every time they get TD their team is doing really well. With Westbrook we have seen all time great winning % when he has one. I'm sure Lukas and Jokic have really great record as well.

Though I'm sure some small brained individual comes to answer this post why he doesn't get TD every game if it leads to winning.

[JN61]

I’m looking forward to hearing about how todays players have ruined the value of shooting 50/40/90

Nah. These forums love shooting over anything else. Nothing else matters but the 3s and FTs.

[hardenASG13]

More triple doubles "ruined" the perception of triple doubles. Of course we also acknowledge that there's nothing inherently special about getting to double digits, it's just that we like numbers that look certain ways. For example Harden averaged 29/8/11 in 16-17, would he have had more impact or the season have been better if he averaged 29/10/11? Unlikely, and most likely Capela would just average fewer rebounds and help Harden a bit to get more boards. BUT, it would have been hyped up morev because it's not usually done, that's just life.

This. I'd call it a "winning triple double" vs a "stat padding triple double".

Westbrooks teams have won 75% of the games he's had a triple double. He was a winning player his whole career in OKC, which was essentially his prime. He played with unmatched energy and athletics and dominated games, got in the mix for every rebound and broke down defenses all night with no spacing and slow centers on his roster.

And there are many ways that this makes sense. Westbrook controlled the majority of playmaking.

The more the opponent misses, the more opportunities for defensive rebounds, and the better his teammates shoot and finish, the more opportunities for assists. Also, the better they are doing in a game, the more he can be like, "okay, we're winning, let me focus on dishing out to get assists", etc

So it makes sense that the games where he's getting all those things are going to be the games where the team is doing better.

That's not how it went at all, but nice revisionist history. Russell attacked all game long, looking to make plays for his team. They needed him to shoot, and create, alot, because aside from KD they never really had guys who could. Plus their offense was Russ and KD taking turns in iso, since they never had a post/lob threat (think perkins) and often had a guy in the corner who was a worse 3 point shooter than your typical High school wing (think Roberson, who also couldn't dribble a ball when guarded or attempt a pull up, but that defense though!)

Russ went after every rebound, got huge offensive rebounds all the time, tipped balls to keep them alive, etc. He wasn't out there padding stats, he just played aggressive from the jump.

[ty 4191]

getting a trip dub is great for your team, just like scoring 40. but like scoring 40, theres a good way and a bad way to do it.

if anything, russ brought nuance to the triple double, since people dont think about it as some obviously incredible thing anymore

This. I'd call it a "winning triple double" vs a "stat padding triple double".

Westbrook had a tremendous win % when he trip doubles.

During Westbrook's tenure with each franchise when he has had a triple double:
-Lakers: 7-7 (55-74 record overall)
-Wizards: 23-15 (34-38 overall)
-Rockets: 5-3 (44-28 overall)
-Thunder: 110-28 (.797), (538-348 overall: .607)

That's a 145-53 (.730) when Russ has had a triple double vs. his teams' overall record of 671-488 (.579).

Nuggets are 14-0 when Jokic has a triple double this season. All time, 75-21 (.781) when he puts one up.

Triple doubles really help win games!!

[JN61]

This. I'd call it a "winning triple double" vs a "stat padding triple double".

Westbrook had a tremendous win % when he trip doubles.

During Westbrook's tenure with each franchise when he has had a triple double:
-Lakers: 7-7 (55-74 record overall)
-Wizards: 23-15 (34-38 overall)
-Rockets: 5-3 (44-28 overall)
-Thunder: 110-28 (.797), (538-348 overall: .607)

That's a 145-53 (.730) when Russ has had a triple double vs. his team's overall record of 671-488 (.579).

Nuggets are 14-0 when Jokic has a triple double this season. All time, 75-21 (.781) when he puts one up.

Triple doubles really help win games!!

And as Westbrook put it; the hardest part of TD are the assists. Other ones you can control far more than assists where a lot comes down to players making them. On a good 3 point shooting team its far easier than poor one as well where you have to work to create easy plays for your teammates who can't shoot. So I don't know what level of thinking people go through when they don't think stat correlates with Ws. When your teammates are able to hit the shot you are most likely going to win the game.

[og15]

More triple doubles "ruined" the perception of triple doubles. Of course we also acknowledge that there's nothing inherently special about getting to double digits, it's just that we like numbers that look certain ways. For example Harden averaged 29/8/11 in 16-17, would he have had more impact or the season have been better if he averaged 29/10/11? Unlikely, and most likely Capela would just average fewer rebounds and help Harden a bit to get more boards. BUT, it would have been hyped up morev because it's not usually done, that's just life.

Westbrooks teams have won 75% of the games he's had a triple double. He was a winning player his whole career in OKC, which was essentially his prime. He played with unmatched energy and athletics and dominated games, got in the mix for every rebound and broke down defenses all night with no spacing and slow centers on his roster.

And there are many ways that this makes sense. Westbrook controlled the majority of playmaking.

The more the opponent misses, the more opportunities for defensive rebounds, and the better his teammates shoot and finish, the more opportunities for assists. Also, the better they are doing in a game, the more he can be like, "okay, we're winning, let me focus on dishing out to get assists", etc

So it makes sense that the games where he's getting all those things are going to be the games where the team is doing better.

That's not how it went at all, but nice revisionist history. Russell attacked all game long, looking to make plays for his team. They needed him to shoot, and create, alot, because aside from KD they never really had guys who could. Plus their offense was Russ and KD taking turns in iso, since they never had a post/lob threat (think perkins) and often had a guy in the corner who was a worse 3 point shooter than your typical High school wing (think Roberson, who also couldn't dribble a ball when guarded or attempt a pull up, but that defense though!)

Russ went after every rebound, got huge offensive rebounds all the time, tipped balls to keep them alive, etc. He wasn't out there padding stats, he just played aggressive from the jump.

I don't really know what you are trying to say here or how you are reading my post. Westbrook can always score points, Westbrook can grab rebounds. In order for him to get assists, his teammates have to make shots. Games where his teammates make shots, his team is more likely to win. Games where his teammates make shots will also be the games that his assists are high. Games where his team is up, he won't feel the burden to "carry the team on his back", those games he can also look to be more of a facilitator at certain points in the game. Players like to let their teammates "eat" too so everyone can be happy.

You'll realize that there was no correlation between Westbrook getting 4 or 5 offensive rebounds and wins or getting 0 offensive rebounds and losing. They were 9-5 when he had 0 offensive rebounds (on of those games they only played the starters half the game at the end of the season and they lost). They were 1-4 when he got 5+ offensive rebounds and 3-4 when he got 4+ offensive rebounds.

So yes, it makes sense. If his teammates are making shots, two things will happen, 1) he will get more assists, 2) they are more likely to win, those will correlate. Secondly, if the opponent is missing more, which means their defense is playing better, he is more likely to get more defensive rebounds and be in double digits on rebounds. There's nothing complicated here. Westbrook was controlling the offense, so it makes sense.

The Mavs this season are 13-5 when Doncic has 10+ assists, they are 3-6 when he has 6 or less. Last season they were 16-2 when he had 11+ assists and 20-7 when he had 10+ assists. The 16-17 Rockets were 18-6 when Harden had 13+ assists and 2-5 when he had <8 assists. When you play heliocentric, higher assists from your main guy relative to his norm will correlate with wins, because assists require teammates to make shots, and teammates making shots generally means your offense overall is playing well. There's nothing magical about it, it's just common sense.