The benefits of a good coach and young players

[mjkvol]

The root of the issue is losing on purpose and then overvaluing the players intended to "rescue" the franchise.

If you don't lose on purpose, you're far less likely to overvalue any player. Losing on purpose creates a tremendous need to satisfy the fanbase with the players obtained in that process. Those players simply MUST pan out, and the franchise simply MUST play well with them. The fanbase is essentially experiencing a situation that could be stated "you sold us on losing on purpose [i.e., "trust the process"] -- now where are the results?" Under no other circumstances is there that kind of tremendous pressure to succeed with players obtained.

The lesson here is not to engage in a prolonged period of tanking, because there is no guarantee the players obtained will rectify the situation, and there's a better than usual chance you'll overvalue those players and send your franchise the direction this one's gone.

Even by your standards this is simply ridiculous.

The lesson here is never allow the league to decide who will run your organization. Period.

[Negrodamus]

The good (and bad) news of that is Jimmy Butler had an entire career of Joel Embiid playoff performances prior to going to Miami. Wasn't until he was 30 that he turned it up to the next level; even then, he was a complete dud in 2020-2021 playoffs.

Love Jimmy but he legit got outscored by Brynn Forbes just a few years ago lol

The above posts make the mistake of thinking that production is what's inspirational.

Effort is what's inspirational, whether it results in production or not.

Embiid and Harden are short on effort all too often when it matters. Butler is never short on effort.

All that effort and Jimmy never made it out of the second round until he went to the Heat. Perhaps Embiid will become more "inspirational" when he hits 30 years old.

[Ferry Avenue]

The good (and bad) news of that is Jimmy Butler had an entire career of Joel Embiid playoff performances prior to going to Miami. Wasn't until he was 30 that he turned it up to the next level; even then, he was a complete dud in 2020-2021 playoffs.

Love Jimmy but he legit got outscored by Brynn Forbes just a few years ago lol

The above posts make the mistake of thinking that production is what's inspirational.

Effort is what's inspirational, whether it results in production or not.

Embiid and Harden are short on effort all too often when it matters. Butler is never short on effort.

All that effort and Jimmy never made it out of the second round until he went to the Heat. Perhaps Embiid will become more "inspirational" when he hits 30 years old.

You mean when he became recognized as his team's leader? What a coincidence. Embiid unfortunately is already in that position.

[Negrodamus]

The above posts make the mistake of thinking that production is what's inspirational.

Effort is what's inspirational, whether it results in production or not.

Embiid and Harden are short on effort all too often when it matters. Butler is never short on effort.

All that effort and Jimmy never made it out of the second round until he went to the Heat. Perhaps Embiid will become more "inspirational" when he hits 30 years old.

You mean when he became recognized as his team's leader? What a coincidence. Embiid unfortunately is already in that position.

No, I mean when he was 25-27 and was the undisputed leader of the Bulls before floated around the league for two stops because he was a "locker room cancer" who will never win anything. I'm sure you ate up, and psychoanalyzed, that narrative too.

[Ferry Avenue]

The root of the issue is losing on purpose and then overvaluing the players intended to "rescue" the franchise.

If you don't lose on purpose, you're far less likely to overvalue any player. Losing on purpose creates a tremendous need to satisfy the fanbase with the players obtained in that process. Those players simply MUST pan out, and the franchise simply MUST play well with them. The fanbase is essentially experiencing a situation that could be stated "you sold us on losing on purpose [i.e., "trust the process"] -- now where are the results?" Under no other circumstances is there that kind of tremendous pressure to succeed with players obtained.

The lesson here is not to engage in a prolonged period of tanking, because there is no guarantee the players obtained will rectify the situation, and there's a better than usual chance you'll overvalue those players and send your franchise the direction this one's gone.

Even by your standards this is simply ridiculous.

The lesson here is never allow the league to decide who will run your organization. Period.

The person running the organization isn't responsible for the low effort/drive of Ben Simmons and Joel Embiid in the name of the team as opposed to their personal pursuits (money/lifestyle or MVP). That's a function of their own characteristics and an organizational situation/dynamic that overvalues and coddles them in an attempt to make good on "the process," thus giving them low accountability.

The value ascribed to players by the organization should be entirely a function of their value in reality, not a function of the need of the organization to satisfy a fanbase that was sold on an idea that losing on purpose would produce a championship.

[mjkvol]

The root of the issue is losing on purpose and then overvaluing the players intended to "rescue" the franchise.

If you don't lose on purpose, you're far less likely to overvalue any player. Losing on purpose creates a tremendous need to satisfy the fanbase with the players obtained in that process. Those players simply MUST pan out, and the franchise simply MUST play well with them. The fanbase is essentially experiencing a situation that could be stated "you sold us on losing on purpose [i.e., "trust the process"] -- now where are the results?" Under no other circumstances is there that kind of tremendous pressure to succeed with players obtained.

The lesson here is not to engage in a prolonged period of tanking, because there is no guarantee the players obtained will rectify the situation, and there's a better than usual chance you'll overvalue those players and send your franchise the direction this one's gone.

Even by your standards this is simply ridiculous.

The lesson here is never allow the league to decide who will run your organization. Period.

The person running the organization isn't responsible for the low effort/drive of Ben Simmons and Joel Embiid in the name of the team as opposed to their personal pursuits (money/lifestyle or MVP). That's a function of their own characteristics and an organizational situation/dynamic that overvalues and coddles them in an attempt to make good on "the process," thus giving them low accountability.

The value ascribed to players by the organization should be entirely a function of their value in reality, not a function of the need of the organization to satisfy a fanbase that was sold on an idea that losing on purpose would produce a championship.

The idea that the value ascribed to Simmons, Embiid, or anyone else acquired here is anything other than what the organization felt their value were as players is one that is in your imagination only.

You constantly base this kind of silly gobbledygook on absolutely zero fact and 100% on fitting whatever agenda you clearly have.

[Ferry Avenue]

All that effort and Jimmy never made it out of the second round until he went to the Heat. Perhaps Embiid will become more "inspirational" when he hits 30 years old.

You mean when he became recognized as his team's leader? What a coincidence. Embiid unfortunately is already in that position.

No, I mean when he was 25-27 and was the undisputed leader of the Bulls before floated around the league for two stops because he was a "locker room cancer" who will never win anything. I'm sure you ate up, and psychoanalyzed, that narrative too.

I suspect he was overshadowed by Derrick Rose and Dwyane Wade for that status on those teams. Hardly undisputed, and certainly not at the ages of 25-27 with those players involved.

[Ferry Avenue]

Even by your standards this is simply ridiculous.

The lesson here is never allow the league to decide who will run your organization. Period.

The person running the organization isn't responsible for the low effort/drive of Ben Simmons and Joel Embiid in the name of the team as opposed to their personal pursuits (money/lifestyle or MVP). That's a function of their own characteristics and an organizational situation/dynamic that overvalues and coddles them in an attempt to make good on "the process," thus giving them low accountability.

The value ascribed to players by the organization should be entirely a function of their value in reality, not a function of the need of the organization to satisfy a fanbase that was sold on an idea that losing on purpose would produce a championship.

The idea that the value ascribed to Simmons, Embiid, or anyone else acquired here is anything other than what the organization felt their value were as players is one that is in your imagination only.

You constantly base this kind of silly gobbledygook on absolutely zero fact and 100% on fitting whatever agenda you clearly have.

The only agenda I see here is the one comprised of you following me around and claiming every one of my posts you respond to is somehow incorrect, regardless of the topic.

[Mik317]

or maybe just maybe...there is more that goes into it than just wanting it more?

It is important to have toughness when things are going south and to be mentally strong to win it all. No one is saying that at all. YOU however place too much weight on that over other factors that also are important.

Jimmy also recently was about to fight his coach. The Heat were a 8th seed this year. And as stated it took Jimmy a while to get to this level of success. It coinciding with going from 3 poorly ran organizations to one of the best can't be a coincidence either.

Again no one is saying Jo and Harden aren't at fault for our failure. They sucked in game 7 and parts of game 6. That was killer. HOWEVER, both also contributed to the series going 7 as well....positively mind you. PERHAPS it is possible that with some tweaks to the other aspects of the sport, that one could overcome said mental weakness? Giannis is probably one of the hardest working dudes in the world... but he didn't win **** until the team fixed the few issues via adding Jrue and some scheme changes. Jokic is in the finals, I don't think he wanted it any less last year than he does now...the difference being Murray is back to form and the team around him hides his flaws as a player and enhances his strengths.

again perhaps Jo is just not built for it as a leader...but even then I'd chalk that more up to his position and approach offensively on the court more than any thing else. Him and Harden's games are based off of eating possessions and tough shot making. Both of which grinds out a game and when its not on...it looks terrible and like they aren't playing hard. Harden is a lost cause because thats how he has played forever and he doesn't make up for it elsewhere...I still believe that Biid can adjust if only because is position doesn't mandate on ball reps. I think that is more interesting to discuss than rounds of armchair psychology about dudes we don't know lol.

Again perhaps, he just aint that guy so to speak and that would be a bummer but I think there are other ways to approach it even in that scenario.

and again this thread is about young players and we are here rehashing the same ole "he sucks doe" nonsense

[Negrodamus]

You mean when he became recognized as his team's leader? What a coincidence. Embiid unfortunately is already in that position.

No, I mean when he was 25-27 and was the undisputed leader of the Bulls before floated around the league for two stops because he was a "locker room cancer" who will never win anything. I'm sure you ate up, and psychoanalyzed, that narrative too.

I suspect he was overshadowed by Derrick Rose and Dwyane Wade for that status on those teams. Hardly undisputed, and certainly not at the ages of 25-27 with those players involved.

To be expected, but this is no longer a serious conversation. Speculation that the husk of Derrick Rose and 35 year old Dwyane Wade on his first season with the Bulls were the leaders. Got it. Literally can't argue with that.

[mjkvol]

The person running the organization isn't responsible for the low effort/drive of Ben Simmons and Joel Embiid in the name of the team as opposed to their personal pursuits (money/lifestyle or MVP). That's a function of their own characteristics and an organizational situation/dynamic that overvalues and coddles them in an attempt to make good on "the process," thus giving them low accountability.

The value ascribed to players by the organization should be entirely a function of their value in reality, not a function of the need of the organization to satisfy a fanbase that was sold on an idea that losing on purpose would produce a championship.

The idea that the value ascribed to Simmons, Embiid, or anyone else acquired here is anything other than what the organization felt their value were as players is one that is in your imagination only.

You constantly base this kind of silly gobbledygook on absolutely zero fact and 100% on fitting whatever agenda you clearly have.

The only agenda I see here is the one comprised of you following me around and claiming every one of my posts you respond to is somehow incorrect, regardless of the topic.

Fine. Just one time how about providing even a shred of actual evidence or fact for your silly assertions? You say there was a need to "satisfy the fan base" that went into the Simmons and Embiid selections? Show one semblance of evidence of such an assertion.

[HotelVitale]

Culture is everything especially in sports. You’d be surprised how much politics/nepotism and cynical nature runs through each organisation.

Pat Riley and Spo are ATG’s in their own right they don’t f around and run the tightest of ships. We are basically the opposite of the Heat from top to bottom lol

It will never happen and it’s purely a fantasy thing but if the Sixers where run by the majority of fans ala Bayern Munich we’ve already had a championship by now. No seriously some of the posters here have crazy takes myself included... still better than what this FO has come up for over half a decade. And over half a decade in sports is literally an eternity in the scheme of things.

There was more or less just one full calendar year of catastrophic moves the FO made, BC and B-B share the blame. Fultz trade, Butler trade then walking, Tobias trade then max, Horford signing, Zhaire Smith trade. Blew pretty much all of our considerable assets and left us capped out without a second star, and ready to be f’d when Simmons fell apart. We walked out of that series of moves minus 5 1st rd picks (and a cheap Covington who was worth at least one more) and with Tobias on a giant contract. And Seth curry and Danny Green for a minute too I guess (yay!).

I’m not a huge Morey guy but I think he’s competent and that he and most GMs probably wouldn’t have done any of those moves, let alone all of them. So I don’t think it makes sense to sideswipe the ‘FO’ as a whole. Process was well set up, Morey’s made the roster make more sense. But that year was just a brutal stretch and we’re walking through the wreckage now. Gotta be both lucky and good to field a champ team and we were both pretty unlucky and pretty crap after the Process set the table.

100% agree well said. The only caveat I’d add is we ourselves made the luck as worse as possible. The biggest head scratcher to me wasn’t the Fultz/Simmons debacle it was the Bridges scenario. We needed a wing and a PG and it was the worst possible time to double down on a project. The timeline made no sense then as it does now. Yeah Ben made Shai look redundant in the sense that the FO was sticking to the wrong gun which was proven to be wrong but that’s happened before but Bridges? Didn’t understand it then still don’t now. Ready made and ready to go with a pro game, homegrown the whole works.

Tin foil but whatever I seriously think there’s some sour things going on away from the public eye. There’s still sour grapes in the org imho.

At the very least we’d be 2/5 on the starting positions long term instead of 1/5.

Well my counter to that would be that I was actually working at Villanova at the time and watched a lot of Bridges, and I loved him as a college player but didn’t think he was a guaranteed solid starter in the NBA—let alone what he was on PHX (probably the best 3D guy ever), let alone what he’s become this year. I think it’s just a hindsight take to think that everyone could’ve penciled him in as a major cog in the machine at draft time; to my eyes he was a really good but flawed 3D prospect, and those guys fail or disappoint a lot.

I also think we got a terrific return—the issue is just that we drafted a rough prospect with one pick and then traded the other in the Tobias deal. Zhaire Smith and 30% of the right to max Tobias Harris is an awful return for a prospect like Bridges, even if two picks in the teens for a #10 isn’t bad.

[Ferry Avenue]

The idea that the value ascribed to Simmons, Embiid, or anyone else acquired here is anything other than what the organization felt their value were as players is one that is in your imagination only.

You constantly base this kind of silly gobbledygook on absolutely zero fact and 100% on fitting whatever agenda you clearly have.

The only agenda I see here is the one comprised of you following me around and claiming every one of my posts you respond to is somehow incorrect, regardless of the topic.

Fine. Just one time how about providing even a shred of actual evidence or fact for your silly assertions? You say there was a need to "satisfy the fan base" that went into the Simmons and Embiid selections? Show one semblance of evidence of such an assertion.

Deductive reasoning. If you're asking the fanbase to tolerate a significant period of intentional losing so you can obtain the players necessary to win a championship, certainly then those players obtained MUST be good enough to. It's the only way to save face as an organization. You can't very well lose on purpose and then pick players you recognize as duds with the high draft picks generated.

Why do you think Ben Simmons was prioritized over Jimmy Butler when it was clear Butler was the better and more important player? Simmons was a "process" piece -- he was perhaps the crown jewel of that effort and was hence overvalued.

And if the team isn't listening to trade offers for Embiid this offseason the same dynamic will be at play. As long as Embiid remains and the team provides at least the illusion of hope for a championship with him, the process hasn't "yet" failed.

[mjkvol]

The only agenda I see here is the one comprised of you following me around and claiming every one of my posts you respond to is somehow incorrect, regardless of the topic.

Fine. Just one time how about providing even a shred of actual evidence or fact for your silly assertions? You say there was a need to "satisfy the fan base" that went into the Simmons and Embiid selections? Show one semblance of evidence of such an assertion.

Deductive reasoning. If you're asking the fanbase to tolerate a significant period of intentional losing so you can obtain the players necessary to win a championship, certainly then those players obtained MUST be good enough to. It's the only way to save face as an organization. You can't very well lose on purpose and then pick players you recognize as duds with the high draft picks generated.

Why do you think Ben Simmons was prioritized over Jimmy Butler when it was clear Butler was the better and more important player? Simmons was a "process" piece -- he was perhaps the crown jewel of that effort and was hence overvalued.

And if the team isn't listening to trade offers for Embiid this offseason the same dynamic will be at play. As long as Embiid remains and the team provides at least the illusion of hope for a championship with him, the process hasn't "yet" failed.

Or perhaps it's because Butler was considered by many around the league as a royal pain in the ass, and Simmons was still seen as the future PG here. Before he got to Miami, what had Butler accomplished in the playoffs? Maybe the Sixers weren't prepared to jettison a coach and young core piece for a guy here for a couple of months. I'm not saying it was the right call, but I guarantee the fact that he was a "process piece" wasn't a factor in the decision. Hinkie was the Process, and he was long gone.

And just maybe it isn't good business or basketball sense to trade the face of your franchise coming off a career year where he won the MVP, and it's a known fact that those trades never bring back close to equal value. All this Embiid stuff wouldn't even be a discussion right now if Tatum didn't go crazy down the stretch of game 6.

Deductive reasoning? Listen, if you ever read Conan Doyle, you would know that Holmes used facts and evidence in his deductive reasoning. You use none at all, just your bizarre amateur psychology that you apply to every single scenario.

[Bum Adebayo]

Mentality and character is key and HUGE in importance, but many americans only care about the talent.

[Ferry Avenue]

Fine. Just one time how about providing even a shred of actual evidence or fact for your silly assertions? You say there was a need to "satisfy the fan base" that went into the Simmons and Embiid selections? Show one semblance of evidence of such an assertion.

Deductive reasoning. If you're asking the fanbase to tolerate a significant period of intentional losing so you can obtain the players necessary to win a championship, certainly then those players obtained MUST be good enough to. It's the only way to save face as an organization. You can't very well lose on purpose and then pick players you recognize as duds with the high draft picks generated.

Why do you think Ben Simmons was prioritized over Jimmy Butler when it was clear Butler was the better and more important player? Simmons was a "process" piece -- he was perhaps the crown jewel of that effort and was hence overvalued.

And if the team isn't listening to trade offers for Embiid this offseason the same dynamic will be at play. As long as Embiid remains and the team provides at least the illusion of hope for a championship with him, the process hasn't "yet" failed.

Or perhaps it's because Butler was considered by many around the league as a royal pain in the ass, and Simmons was still seen as the future PG here. Before he got to Miami, what had Butler accomplished in the playoffs? Maybe the Sixers weren't prepared to jettison a coach and young core piece for a guy here for a couple of months. I'm not saying it was the right call, but I guarantee the fact that he was a "process piece" wasn't a factor in the decision. Hinkie was the Process, and he was long gone.

And just maybe it isn't good business or basketball sense to trade the face of your franchise coming off a career year where he won the MVP, and it's a known fact that those trades never bring back close to equal value. All this Embiid stuff wouldn't even be a discussion right now if Tatum didn't go crazy down the stretch of game 6.

Deductive reasoning? Listen, if you ever read Conan Doyle, you would know that Holmes used facts and evidence in his deductive reasoning. You use none at all, just your bizarre amateur psychology that you apply to every single scenario.

Despite that Hinkie was gone the fanbase wasn't holding the organization any less accountable for making good on "the process" and certainly the organization knew that. The fanbase is holding the organization accountable for that to this day.

When you sell the fanbase on the idea that losing on purpose will result in a championship, the only way to keep butts in the seats from then on is to sell the idea that the players obtained in that process are capable of winning a championship. That can easily involve an overvaluing of those players.

[Jailblazers7]

Our front office being bad during the Colangelo & Brand years has nothing to do with “the process”. They were bad at their jobs all on their own.

If you want to argue that a culture of losing was established & that’s why Joel is now a big fat loser, then fine I’m willing to entertain that thought. But blaming the awful track record of our previous front office on “the process” and the fanbase is ridiculous.

[Mik317]

Jo didn’t even play during those years. Once he did we started to win until he got hurt and then have made the playoffs every year since lol

He’s coddled not because he is the last bastion of the process but because he’s our best player lol….that’s how the league works

Jimmy threatened to punch Spo… if Haywood Highsmith did that his ass would be playing in Guam. That’s how things go in the nba for better or for worse

[mjkvol]

Despite that Hinkie was gone the fanbase wasn't holding the organization any less accountable for making good on "the process" and certainly the organization knew that. The fanbase is holding the organization accountable for that to this day.

When you sell the fanbase on the idea that losing on purpose will result in a championship, the only way to keep butts in the seats from then on is to sell the idea that the players obtained in that process are capable of winning a championship. That can easily involve an overvaluing of those players.

So the "deductive reasoning" is that fans are such idiots that they'll buy into what management says as opposed to what they see with their own eyes, and that the front office of a billion dollar professional sports organization is making personnel decisions 4-5 years after the fact based on actions taken by a completely different front office. Right.

I tried, but like Negrodamus said, there's really no point. You make rash assertions about every topic, never using facts or real tangible evidence, but instead your own silly brand of armchair psychology. Have a nice night.

[Ferry Avenue]

Despite that Hinkie was gone the fanbase wasn't holding the organization any less accountable for making good on "the process" and certainly the organization knew that. The fanbase is holding the organization accountable for that to this day.

When you sell the fanbase on the idea that losing on purpose will result in a championship, the only way to keep butts in the seats from then on is to sell the idea that the players obtained in that process are capable of winning a championship. That can easily involve an overvaluing of those players.

So the "deductive reasoning" is that fans are such idiots that they'll buy into what management says as opposed to what they see with their own eyes, and that the front office of a billion dollar professional sports organization is making personnel decisions 4-5 years after the fact based on actions taken by a completely different front office. Right.

I tried, but like Negrodamus said, there's really no point. You make rash assertions about every topic, never using facts or real tangible evidence, but instead your own silly brand of armchair psychology. Have a nice night.

The brand of armchair psychology I'm employing is called human nature. You oughta study up on it sometime.