Post Mortem 2023-24

[JujitsuFlip]

Watch on YouTube

Media day with Koby

Summary of things that caught my ear:

1. Big thank you to JB for helping the team through the rebuild.

2. Can't discuss the Mitchell contract but enjoyed the exit interview. Lots of talk of the future and Mitchell being happy in Cleveland.

3. Pushes back against the fit issues, believes the net rating is really good. Likes the net rating of Allen+ Mobley. He doesn't see major roster changes, data speaks to the core being really good. Wants to find small changes to boost the tweak. Looks at the team as a young team with a lot of potential.

4. Coaching search is very specific compared to 5 years ago. Splitting time for the search with the drafted related things going on.

5. Talks about difficulty of developing a top draft pick with winning at the highest level. Loves giving them playoff experience this early in their career.

6. Niang discussed he felt like he could have been better. koby believes Strus is much better basketball player than when we acquired him.

7. Thinking about how much wear and tear is being put on players during the season. NBA cup intensity, post season intensity. Talked about injuries. Injuries made them realize they do have some depth.

8. Having a coach before the draft is probably too aggressive.

3. As some of us suspected, Koby will probably have to be the next one let go. However, maybe a new coach makes 2 small scoring guards and 2 bigs who don't shoot work. The main thing is Klutch can not taint Garland and Allen can get over the teammate ridicule. If the core 4 is here next season, maybe a new coach can convince Mobley or Allen to come off the bench. Maybe Garland needs to get on that Tristan regimen so he can look like swole 46 year old Bibby.

5. I wouldn't call #20 a "top" pick but i think getting the pick right is important since the Jazz control our next 5 drafts after this one.

8. Well, that sucks because free agency is only a few days after that. So the new coach is gonna have basically no say on the construction of the team.

We'll have to judge Koby by his actions not his words, because the press conference was just trying to calm any fires still burning since the season ended. That being said, sticking with what we have and adding a coach with some ideas of how to work with it is a pretty good approach compared to ... selling off assets for 50 cents on the dollar to just get a more modern lineup.

One interesting point I read lately was that Brook Lopez started his transition from post-up big to 3pt bomber under Kenny Atkinson. Lopez went from 14 attempts to 387 under Atkinson which is like going from Allen to Niang volume in a season. Lopez started out 1-7 but the Nets didn't have to wait long as he shot almost 40% in November. So, who knows, but consistent volume is going to make consistent shooting more likely.

I suppose the idea here is JBB couldn't really develop our two bigs or our two guards to be better offensively than they were individually, but if a new coach wants to continue with them, hopefully there will be an actual plan we try to follow.

Allen's value is really high right now, so at minimum he would return equal value. It would probably be selling low if Rich Paul forces Garland out but we sold low on Kyrie too.

The only issue I have with that comp is Allen already played under Kenny for 3 seasons and still never got to a respectable volume or efficiency. Furthermore, BroLo has a nice midrange game those first 8 seasons before he started shooting 3s. Allen has always scored from 10 feet and in, mostly 3 feet and in.

I wouldn't say jb couldn't, he just never tried. He was very content running that iso and high PnR playground style offense.

Also, why I hate how long Koby is gonna drag this search out. The new coach isn't gonna have a choice but to use w.e roster is in place. The draft will for sure be done and potetinally the meat & potatoes of free agency too. The new coach I guess could ask for a trade if one is out there in mid July but mostly it will kinda be here is the roster, work your magic.

[jbk1234]

3. As some of us suspected, Koby will probably have to be the next one let go. However, maybe a new coach makes 2 small scoring guards and 2 bigs who don't shoot work. The main thing is Klutch can not taint Garland and Allen can get over the teammate ridicule. If the core 4 is here next season, maybe a new coach can convince Mobley or Allen to come off the bench. Maybe Garland needs to get on that Tristan regimen so he can look like swole 46 year old Bibby.

5. I wouldn't call #20 a "top" pick but i think getting the pick right is important since the Jazz control our next 5 drafts after this one.

8. Well, that sucks because free agency is only a few days after that. So the new coach is gonna have basically no say on the construction of the team.

We'll have to judge Koby by his actions not his words, because the press conference was just trying to calm any fires still burning since the season ended. That being said, sticking with what we have and adding a coach with some ideas of how to work with it is a pretty good approach compared to ... selling off assets for 50 cents on the dollar to just get a more modern lineup.

One interesting point I read lately was that Brook Lopez started his transition from post-up big to 3pt bomber under Kenny Atkinson. Lopez went from 14 attempts to 387 under Atkinson which is like going from Allen to Niang volume in a season. Lopez started out 1-7 but the Nets didn't have to wait long as he shot almost 40% in November. So, who knows, but consistent volume is going to make consistent shooting more likely.

I suppose the idea here is JBB couldn't really develop our two bigs or our two guards to be better offensively than they were individually, but if a new coach wants to continue with them, hopefully there will be an actual plan we try to follow.

Allen's value is really high right now, so at minimum he would return equal value. It would probably be selling low if Rich Paul forces Garland out but we sold low on Kyrie too.

The only issue I have with that comp is Allen already played under Kenny for 3 seasons and still never got to a respectable volume or efficiency. Furthermore, BroLo has a nice midrange game those first 8 seasons before he started shooting 3s. Allen has always scored from 10 feet and in, mostly 3 feet and in.

I wouldn't say jb couldn't, he just never tried. He was very content running that iso and high PnR playground style offense.

Also, why I hate how long Koby is gonna drag this search out. The new coach isn't gonna have a choice but to use w.e roster is in place. The draft will for sure be done and potetinally the meat & potatoes of free agency too. The new coach I guess could ask for a trade if one is out there in mid July but mostly it will kinda be here is the roster, work your magic.

When you're hired to coach an ascending team that made it to the second round of the playoffs, you usually don't get to come in and insist that they turn the roster over. You're hired to coach.

[JujitsuFlip]

We'll have to judge Koby by his actions not his words, because the press conference was just trying to calm any fires still burning since the season ended. That being said, sticking with what we have and adding a coach with some ideas of how to work with it is a pretty good approach compared to ... selling off assets for 50 cents on the dollar to just get a more modern lineup.

One interesting point I read lately was that Brook Lopez started his transition from post-up big to 3pt bomber under Kenny Atkinson. Lopez went from 14 attempts to 387 under Atkinson which is like going from Allen to Niang volume in a season. Lopez started out 1-7 but the Nets didn't have to wait long as he shot almost 40% in November. So, who knows, but consistent volume is going to make consistent shooting more likely.

I suppose the idea here is JBB couldn't really develop our two bigs or our two guards to be better offensively than they were individually, but if a new coach wants to continue with them, hopefully there will be an actual plan we try to follow.

Allen's value is really high right now, so at minimum he would return equal value. It would probably be selling low if Rich Paul forces Garland out but we sold low on Kyrie too.

The only issue I have with that comp is Allen already played under Kenny for 3 seasons and still never got to a respectable volume or efficiency. Furthermore, BroLo has a nice midrange game those first 8 seasons before he started shooting 3s. Allen has always scored from 10 feet and in, mostly 3 feet and in.

I wouldn't say jb couldn't, he just never tried. He was very content running that iso and high PnR playground style offense.

Also, why I hate how long Koby is gonna drag this search out. The new coach isn't gonna have a choice but to use w.e roster is in place. The draft will for sure be done and potetinally the meat & potatoes of free agency too. The new coach I guess could ask for a trade if one is out there in mid July but mostly it will kinda be here is the roster, work your magic.

When you're hired to coach an ascending team that made it to the second round of the playoffs, you usually don't get to come in and insist that they turn the roster over. You're hired to coach.

The players or their agents might insist on that, so it would be nice to know what the new coach wanted to draft, sign, and trade for... To fit his/her system. Assuming he/she has a system.

[JonFromVA]

We'll have to judge Koby by his actions not his words, because the press conference was just trying to calm any fires still burning since the season ended. That being said, sticking with what we have and adding a coach with some ideas of how to work with it is a pretty good approach compared to ... selling off assets for 50 cents on the dollar to just get a more modern lineup.

One interesting point I read lately was that Brook Lopez started his transition from post-up big to 3pt bomber under Kenny Atkinson. Lopez went from 14 attempts to 387 under Atkinson which is like going from Allen to Niang volume in a season. Lopez started out 1-7 but the Nets didn't have to wait long as he shot almost 40% in November. So, who knows, but consistent volume is going to make consistent shooting more likely.

I suppose the idea here is JBB couldn't really develop our two bigs or our two guards to be better offensively than they were individually, but if a new coach wants to continue with them, hopefully there will be an actual plan we try to follow.

Allen's value is really high right now, so at minimum he would return equal value. It would probably be selling low if Rich Paul forces Garland out but we sold low on Kyrie too.

The only issue I have with that comp is Allen already played under Kenny for 3 seasons and still never got to a respectable volume or efficiency. Furthermore, BroLo has a nice midrange game those first 8 seasons before he started shooting 3s. Allen has always scored from 10 feet and in, mostly 3 feet and in.

I wouldn't say jb couldn't, he just never tried. He was very content running that iso and high PnR playground style offense.

Also, why I hate how long Koby is gonna drag this search out. The new coach isn't gonna have a choice but to use w.e roster is in place. The draft will for sure be done and potetinally the meat & potatoes of free agency too. The new coach I guess could ask for a trade if one is out there in mid July but mostly it will kinda be here is the roster, work your magic.

When you're hired to coach an ascending team that made it to the second round of the playoffs, you usually don't get to come in and insist that they turn the roster over. You're hired to coach.

Only a desperate coach will take a job he doesn't feel he can succeed in ... we need to listen to the pitches and decide how to best fit the coach and personnel or we will just waste more seasons.

[jbk1234]

Allen's value is really high right now, so at minimum he would return equal value. It would probably be selling low if Rich Paul forces Garland out but we sold low on Kyrie too.

The only issue I have with that comp is Allen already played under Kenny for 3 seasons and still never got to a respectable volume or efficiency. Furthermore, BroLo has a nice midrange game those first 8 seasons before he started shooting 3s. Allen has always scored from 10 feet and in, mostly 3 feet and in.

I wouldn't say jb couldn't, he just never tried. He was very content running that iso and high PnR playground style offense.

Also, why I hate how long Koby is gonna drag this search out. The new coach isn't gonna have a choice but to use w.e roster is in place. The draft will for sure be done and potetinally the meat & potatoes of free agency too. The new coach I guess could ask for a trade if one is out there in mid July but mostly it will kinda be here is the roster, work your magic.

When you're hired to coach an ascending team that made it to the second round of the playoffs, you usually don't get to come in and insist that they turn the roster over. You're hired to coach.

Only a desperate coach will take a job he doesn't feel he can succeed in ... we need to listen to the pitches and decide how to best fit the coach and personnel or we will just waste more seasons.

I don't disagree with any of that. It's just that if the candidate starts telling you to trade really good players for meh guys due to fit, he's probably not the right candidate

[JonFromVA]

When you're hired to coach an ascending team that made it to the second round of the playoffs, you usually don't get to come in and insist that they turn the roster over. You're hired to coach.

Only a desperate coach will take a job he doesn't feel he can succeed in ... we need to listen to the pitches and decide how to best fit the coach and personnel or we will just waste more seasons.

I don't disagree with any of that. It's just that if the candidate starts telling you to trade really good players for meh guys due to fit, he's probably not the right candidate

Sure, both sides need to come together on something like this, but it'd be an act of faith to take the job before the roster was re-aligned.

And some of the candidates will be desperate....

[JujitsuFlip]

When you're hired to coach an ascending team that made it to the second round of the playoffs, you usually don't get to come in and insist that they turn the roster over. You're hired to coach.

Only a desperate coach will take a job he doesn't feel he can succeed in ... we need to listen to the pitches and decide how to best fit the coach and personnel or we will just waste more seasons.

I don't disagree with any of that. It's just that if the candidate starts telling you to trade really good players for meh guys due to fit, he's probably not the right candidate

I mean... You can take that hardline stance but at the end of the day the Cavs still have 2 defensive bigs who can't shoot and 2 undersized offensive minded guards who are defensive liabilities.

No amount of coaching is gonna make Allen shoot, see Ben Simmons.

No amount of coaching is gonna make Garland a good defender, see Mo Williams.

[ijspeelman]

Only a desperate coach will take a job he doesn't feel he can succeed in ... we need to listen to the pitches and decide how to best fit the coach and personnel or we will just waste more seasons.

I don't disagree with any of that. It's just that if the candidate starts telling you to trade really good players for meh guys due to fit, he's probably not the right candidate

I mean... You can take that hardline stance but at the end of the day the Cavs still have 2 defensive bigs who can't shoot and 2 undersized offensive minded guards who are defensive liabilities.

No amount of coaching is gonna make Allen shoot, see Ben Simmons.

No amount of coaching is gonna make Garland a good defender, see Mo Williams.

Steph Curry was made a good defender by focusing solely on team defense. Warriors really don't let him get on-ball in competitive games if they don't have to and he makes the opponent pay by being smart off-ball. I think we could see something similar with Garland where I do think he has a knack for playing passing lanes. May need to get a bit better reading the close-out and/or switches tho

[JonFromVA]

I don't disagree with any of that. It's just that if the candidate starts telling you to trade really good players for meh guys due to fit, he's probably not the right candidate

I mean... You can take that hardline stance but at the end of the day the Cavs still have 2 defensive bigs who can't shoot and 2 undersized offensive minded guards who are defensive liabilities.

No amount of coaching is gonna make Allen shoot, see Ben Simmons.

No amount of coaching is gonna make Garland a good defender, see Mo Williams.

Steph Curry was made a good defender by focusing solely on team defense. Warriors really don't let him get on-ball in competitive games if they don't have to and he makes the opponent pay by being smart off-ball. I think we could see something similar with Garland where I do think he has a knack for playing passing lanes. May need to get a bit better reading the close-out and/or switches tho

The Warriors brought in Mike Brown who installed a number of options to their basic switching defense so team's couldn't pick on Steph as easily. We already have our defensive coach and it didn't look like he had an answer. Our lack of length and girth in general has been problematic against our last 3 playoff opponents.

So, even off the ball ... it's pretty awful when Darius or Sam is our weak side help defender trying to protect the paint, but not that much better when it's Max, Isaac, Caris, George, etc.

It's really untenable if when the playoffs roll around the refs are going to let both sides elbow and shove. It becomes a different game and even quick foot work and proper positioning won't mean a thing.

[toooskies]

Darius Garland has defensive limitations but I think the place where his defensive weakness shows the most is in the bench units where you try to play Merrill and Niang with him and only one of Allen/Mobley. He's honestly fine in lineups with Mitchell because those are usually with two bigs.

Mitchell is short but not really undersized on defense because he has a strong lower body, a big wingspan, and the athleticism to jump with his man on threes or at the rim. He's not getting posted up or shot over much unless it's Tatum or Banchero who would shoot over most guys playing SG.

[JujitsuFlip]

https://www.si.com/nba/cavaliers/news/march-madness-phenom-has-workout-with-cavaliers-01hz3hz042ng

I wouldn't take him with #20 but can always buy a 2nd rounder. I watched some of his tournament games, i think he would be a much needed addition to the team. Keeping his weight down would probably be his biggest challenge. He is a great passer from the post and actually has a decent post game. Speed of the NBA may prove too much for him but a low risk move.

[JonFromVA]

https://www.si.com/nba/cavaliers/news/march-madness-phenom-has-workout-with-cavaliers-01hz3hz042ng

I wouldn't take him with #20 but can always buy a 2nd rounder. I watched some of his tournament games, i think he would be a much needed addition to the team. Keeping his weight down would probably be his biggest challenge. He is a great passer from the post and actually has a decent post game. Speed of the NBA may prove too much for him but a low risk move.

How far do you think Zach Edey (the guy that eliminated him) will actually fall?

[toooskies]

https://www.si.com/nba/cavaliers/news/march-madness-phenom-has-workout-with-cavaliers-01hz3hz042ng

I wouldn't take him with #20 but can always buy a 2nd rounder. I watched some of his tournament games, i think he would be a much needed addition to the team. Keeping his weight down would probably be his biggest challenge. He is a great passer from the post and actually has a decent post game. Speed of the NBA may prove too much for him but a low risk move.

How far do you think Zach Edey (the guy that eliminated him) will actually fall?

Edey could go anywhere from the lottery to the late 1st round. I wouldn't hate drafting him if we traded Allen, we still need a big dude against the big centers of the league.

We're definitely in a position to take best player available at #20 given the potential changes we could have on the roster rather than looking for a perfect fit for our weaknesses, but Tristan DaSilva, Johnny Furphy, Tyler Smith are right in our range as big wings. DaRon Holmes too.

At guard, Devin Carter as a player looks a lot like White/Hart profiled as in college-- the best rebounder and defender of the three. He'd interest me in a backcourt rotation.

Wouldn't mind Filipowski or McCain if they slide. Kel'el Ware is another big with some shooting touch.

Ryan Dunn is the best defensive wing in the draft and is an ideal cutter that we've been lacking. Not much of a shooter, but an option if we move a big.

Target-rich environment at #20, so I wouldn't mind trading down and picking up another pick in the draft. Maybe #20 and a future 2nd to the Knicks for #24, #25? #20 for Utah's #29 and #32?

[JujitsuFlip]

https://www.si.com/nba/cavaliers/news/march-madness-phenom-has-workout-with-cavaliers-01hz3hz042ng

I wouldn't take him with #20 but can always buy a 2nd rounder. I watched some of his tournament games, i think he would be a much needed addition to the team. Keeping his weight down would probably be his biggest challenge. He is a great passer from the post and actually has a decent post game. Speed of the NBA may prove too much for him but a low risk move.

How far do you think Zach Edey (the guy that eliminated him) will actually fall?

I'm not sure, doubt he is on the board by the time we draft. How high he could go is anyone's guess. It is hard to teach 7'4" but idk if he projects to be an elite rim protector in the NBA. Our very own Tristan Thompson averaged more BPG at Texas than any of Edey's college seasons. Edey also can't shoot, similar to the Allen archetype in that regard.

[jbk1234]

Cavs are reportedly not interested in moving any of the core four according to opposing teams.

https://sports.yahoo.com/why-isaiah-hartenstein-could-be-the-best-big-man-available-on-the-market-134657059.html

[toooskies]

Cavs are reportedly not interested in moving any of the core four according to opposing teams.

https://sports.yahoo.com/why-isaiah-hartenstein-could-be-the-best-big-man-available-on-the-market-134657059.html

Source: Koby Altman's public press conference

[JujitsuFlip]

https://www.si.com/nba/cavaliers/news/march-madness-phenom-has-workout-with-cavaliers-01hz3hz042ng

I wouldn't take him with #20 but can always buy a 2nd rounder. I watched some of his tournament games, i think he would be a much needed addition to the team. Keeping his weight down would probably be his biggest challenge. He is a great passer from the post and actually has a decent post game. Speed of the NBA may prove too much for him but a low risk move.

How far do you think Zach Edey (the guy that eliminated him) will actually fall?

Edey could go anywhere from the lottery to the late 1st round. I wouldn't hate drafting him if we traded Allen, we still need a big dude against the big centers of the league.

We're definitely in a position to take best player available at #20 given the potential changes we could have on the roster rather than looking for a perfect fit for our weaknesses, but Tristan DaSilva, Johnny Furphy, Tyler Smith are right in our range as big wings. DaRon Holmes too.

At guard, Devin Carter as a player looks a lot like White/Hart profiled as in college-- the best rebounder and defender of the three. He'd interest me in a backcourt rotation.

Wouldn't mind Filipowski or McCain if they slide. Kel'el Ware is another big with some shooting touch.

Ryan Dunn is the best defensive wing in the draft and is an ideal cutter that we've been lacking. Not much of a shooter, but an option if we move a big.

Target-rich environment at #20, so I wouldn't mind trading down and picking up another pick in the draft. Maybe #20 and a future 2nd to the Knicks for #24, #25? #20 for Utah's #29 and #32?

I actually like the idea of a 2 for 1 type trade, especially if the Cavs don't absolutely love any of the prospects when on the clock at 20.

[jbk1234]

Cavs are reportedly not interested in moving any of the core four according to opposing teams.

https://sports.yahoo.com/why-isaiah-hartenstein-could-be-the-best-big-man-available-on-the-market-134657059.html

Source: Koby Altman's public press conference

If you click on the link, it sounds like this is coming from other teams. Now, maybe those teams are making lowball offers and the Cavs are simply shutting down discussions as a result.

[ijspeelman]

Cavs are reportedly not interested in moving any of the core four according to opposing teams.

https://sports.yahoo.com/why-isaiah-hartenstein-could-be-the-best-big-man-available-on-the-market-134657059.html

Source: Koby Altman's public press conference

If you click on the link, it sounds like this is coming from other teams. Now, maybe those teams are making lowball offers and the Cavs are simply shutting down discussions as a result.

or this is just a tactic to increase trade value for these guys to make it seem like a much better offer is needed to make us even listen

[jbk1234]

Source: Koby Altman's public press conference

If you click on the link, it sounds like this is coming from other teams. Now, maybe those teams are making lowball offers and the Cavs are simply shutting down discussions as a result.

or this is just a tactic to increase trade value for these guys to make it seem like a much better offer is needed to make us even listen

It could be a mixture of both e.g., they're genuinely not eager to break up the team, they're open to the right offer, and they're not interested in listening to bad ones.