Are the Timberwolves a top 6 team in the West?

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Yes
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No
49
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Total votes: 87

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Re: Are the Timberwolves a top 6 team in the West? 

Post#41 » by cupcakesnake » Mon Nov 25, 2024 8:11 pm

bledredwine wrote:I'm disappointed in Edwards' lack of improvement.

I really thought that he'd make a leap this year, but he looks similar to last year.


He's made a leap, just not the one we were hoping for. Everyone who has watched Ant (even people who just tuned in for his playoff run) wanted him to make a playmaking leap. Turn some of those deadly drives into passing reads that generate easy offense for his team. It's what superstars need to do to be elite offensive anchors.

Instead, Ant has leveled up as a shooter. He's been wicked effective at it. Like... so far this season he's been probably the most dangerous long range shooter in the league. #2 in 3-point field goal attemtps, shooting 44%. Only Curry is anywhere near that combo of volume and efficiency. It's cool and all, but only so dangerous if can't combine it with better playmaking. Also he's unlikely to sustain quite this level of shooting. It's gonna come down soon (or worse, what happens if he goes cold for a long stretch?). He's never gotten to the rim so little in his life. His assists are down, but his turnovers are the same. The defense hasn't meaningfully improved and looks worse with a worse backline behind him.
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Re: Are the Timberwolves a top 6 team in the West? 

Post#42 » by jasonxxx102 » Mon Nov 25, 2024 8:13 pm

I don't think Ant is mature enough as a person to be the leader of a contending team. Whenever times get tough he just gets mad and lashes out.

Maybe that strategy can work in some cases but it's not working for the Wolves.

On top of that he's just not a good enough play maker to be the full time offensive engine.
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Re: Are the Timberwolves a top 6 team in the West? 

Post#43 » by facothomas22 » Mon Nov 25, 2024 8:28 pm

It's hard for me to guess where the Timberwolves will be at. Julius Randle has been fine this year and I'm expecting Donte to get better. I do think they are missing the offensive output from KAT and they simply don't look as dominant. When I look at the Western Conference, the Thunder,Mavericks and Warriors(surprisingly)are looking like some of the better team in the NBA . I don't see the Tinberwolves in that range of teams. Lets view teams that can realistically be in the 4-6 seed range . The Nuggets have Nikola Jokic and their depth is just good enough to keep away from the play-in range. The Suns when healthy are clearly a top 5 team in the West and are likely better than the Timberwolves. The Clippers despite of having no clear cut star are looking a playoff team due to how strong their depth is. The same can also be said for the Rockets. I do think the Timberwolves good enough they should be able to avoid being a 9-10 or worse team. I think they will be fighting with teams the Suns,Rockets and Clippers for the 6th seed at seasons end.
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Re: Are the Timberwolves a top 6 team in the West? 

Post#44 » by cgf » Tue Nov 26, 2024 3:03 am

Moose wrote:
cgf wrote:
Moose wrote:The Knicks defense has been bad.

The Twolves were right to pair Towns with a defensive big. Not sure if the Knicks will do that though.

Also, Bridges has not been good on either side of the ball. OG has been better at defending the top guards in teams vs Bridges who seemingly gets burned often now.

I would say the Bridges return is more of a concern than KAT.

But not sure the Knicks will make the lineup/rotation adjustments (more KAT at the 4, for example) to optimize their players.

As for the Twolves, I think they need to surround Randle with as many shooters as possible. I'm not sure if their current situation fits with him.


Some of us said from the start that we expected Towns to start next to Robinson or Achiuwa, sooner or later, and I don’t think we’ve seen anything that changes that.

That’s why I’m still hoping we can use Dadiet + WSH FRP to upgrade Sims to Kessler by the deadline :lol:


As for Minny, I don’t see their roster as that different from ours last season except their shooters just aren’t hitting their shots enough yet and their passing/defense betrays that they didn’t get a training camp in after the trade.

Julius
Donte
Dynamic lead guard - Ant / Brunson
Non shooting rim protector - Rudy / Mitch
Long wing stopper - McDaniels / Anunoby
undersized bench energy wing - NAW / Hart
Young PG just breaking in - Dillingham / McBride
Elite bench big - Naz / iHart

A lot of the same ingredients are there, they just don’t have chemistry yet and Ant needs to learn to be more of a PG…though it’s not like Jalen created a ton more than Ant does.


As a Knicks fan, I would like to see KAT to the 4 and either Hart or Bridges off the bench (currently Bridges).


Yeah we could play a little more like they did last year and they could play a bit more like we did.
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Re: Are the Timberwolves a top 6 team in the West? 

Post#45 » by Edrees » Tue Nov 26, 2024 3:05 am

One game will probably seperate top 6 and top 8 this year. You're asking me to predict exactly how many games wolves will win down to 1 game which is hard. I said no but i think they will only fall shy 1 or 2 games from being top 6.
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Re: Are the Timberwolves a top 6 team in the West? 

Post#46 » by Klomp » Tue Nov 26, 2024 7:19 pm

Here's the thing.

Last year, there was a clear three teams at the top of the West in the regular season, followed by a tier of 7 teams that had minimal separation.

So we made a substantial trade on the heels of training camp, and we took a slight step back as a result. But that step back was enough to drop us into that clustered tier. So it maybe looks like a greater fall than it actually was, just because that cluster creates such a wide range of possibilities.

But I think the important thing was that Minnesota didn't do the trade with a focus on the 2024-25 season. This is a 5-year outlook, I'd say. With Towns on the books, the franchise was likely landlocked. They would be forced to either trade away their expiring role players for pennies on the dollar or let them walk in free agency for no return. We already saw an example of this months earlier in free agency, with Anderson unable to be retained. That would only continue over the next few years had the Towns trade not happened. Naz Reid. Nickeil Alexander-Walker. Rudy Gobert probably would not have been extended. There's four players out of an 8.5-man rotation that would be gone within a year, had the trade not happened. What are you left with then? Ask the Denver Nuggets. They've made an identical drop this season, yet their only recourse going forward is.....what exactly?
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Re: Are the Timberwolves a top 6 team in the West? 

Post#47 » by JJtheBricklayer » Tue Nov 26, 2024 7:29 pm

they are fringe top 6... but they arent a serious team, the trade was money motivated and they are undoubtedly worse off.

if Randle and Goebert are your 2nd and 3rd best players... I feel bad for wolves fans, you guys are gonna be a 4-8 seed the next few years but wont be actual title contenders.

bad ownership strikes again
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Re: Are the Timberwolves a top 6 team in the West? 

Post#48 » by slick_watts » Tue Nov 26, 2024 8:21 pm

i'm surprised the loss of kyle anderson isn't mentioned more. i think the wolves are missing some veteran leadership on the team that sort of held them together last year. conley is turning into sawdust finally and slow-mo is gone. a lot of knuckleheads on that squad that need some guide rails.
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Re: Are the Timberwolves a top 6 team in the West? 

Post#49 » by karmew32 » Tue Nov 26, 2024 8:33 pm

Klomp wrote:Ask the Denver Nuggets. They've made an identical drop this season, yet their only recourse going forward is.....what exactly?

Their recourse is to cope by crying into their 2023 title banner.
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Re: Are the Timberwolves a top 6 team in the West? 

Post#50 » by Catchall » Tue Nov 26, 2024 8:58 pm

It might depend on how healthy Phoenix and Golden State stay this year. OKC and Denver will likely finish ahead of them. Dallas probably too. Memphis and Houston are wildcards. There might also be a scenario where the 4th and 8th seed are only separated by 3 or 4 games.
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Re: Are the Timberwolves a top 6 team in the West? 

Post#51 » by 165bows » Tue Nov 26, 2024 9:02 pm

cupcakesnake wrote:
bledredwine wrote:I'm disappointed in Edwards' lack of improvement.

I really thought that he'd make a leap this year, but he looks similar to last year.


He's made a leap, just not the one we were hoping for. Everyone who has watched Ant (even people who just tuned in for his playoff run) wanted him to make a playmaking leap. Turn some of those deadly drives into passing reads that generate easy offense for his team. It's what superstars need to do to be elite offensive anchors.

Instead, Ant has leveled up as a shooter. He's been wicked effective at it. Like... so far this season he's been probably the most dangerous long range shooter in the league. #2 in 3-point field goal attemtps, shooting 44%. Only Curry is anywhere near that combo of volume and efficiency. It's cool and all, but only so dangerous if can't combine it with better playmaking. Also he's unlikely to sustain quite this level of shooting. It's gonna come down soon (or worse, what happens if he goes cold for a long stretch?). He's never gotten to the rim so little in his life. His assists are down, but his turnovers are the same. The defense hasn't meaningfully improved and looks worse with a worse backline behind him.

Playmaking comes later imo. Obviously small sample size but Tatum for example has increased his assist/36 rate more this season at 26 than his his past four years put together.
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Re: Are the Timberwolves a top 6 team in the West? 

Post#52 » by cupcakesnake » Tue Nov 26, 2024 9:36 pm

165bows wrote:
cupcakesnake wrote:
bledredwine wrote:I'm disappointed in Edwards' lack of improvement.

I really thought that he'd make a leap this year, but he looks similar to last year.


He's made a leap, just not the one we were hoping for. Everyone who has watched Ant (even people who just tuned in for his playoff run) wanted him to make a playmaking leap. Turn some of those deadly drives into passing reads that generate easy offense for his team. It's what superstars need to do to be elite offensive anchors.

Instead, Ant has leveled up as a shooter. He's been wicked effective at it. Like... so far this season he's been probably the most dangerous long range shooter in the league. #2 in 3-point field goal attemtps, shooting 44%. Only Curry is anywhere near that combo of volume and efficiency. It's cool and all, but only so dangerous if can't combine it with better playmaking. Also he's unlikely to sustain quite this level of shooting. It's gonna come down soon (or worse, what happens if he goes cold for a long stretch?). He's never gotten to the rim so little in his life. His assists are down, but his turnovers are the same. The defense hasn't meaningfully improved and looks worse with a worse backline behind him.

Playmaking comes later imo. Obviously small sample size but Tatum for example has increased his assist/36 rate more this season at 26 than his his past four years put together.


But it doesn't always come. Every player is different. Tons of guys develop playmaking through on ball reps and experience. Ant was on a good trajectory, but this season has been disappointing because it feels he's regressed.

His instincts are that of a consciousless gunner. That gives him the super power needed to hit tough shots against good defenses, but it prevents him from learning to hunt better shots. It's the Kobe dilemma.

Tatum actually looked like a solid decision maker in a medium sized role from day 1. Then he regressed a little and fell too in love with his mediocre pull game. He eventually found his drive and kick game in the context of Boston's offense. I think Tatum is good, not great. The assists are up, but he's not an amazing passer in terms of reads or passing bag. He is however, a totally functional playmaker in the context of Boston's five out offense. They depend on him, and he delivers. His drives attract the most attention, and he knows how to punish those help defenders.

Compared to Ant though... Tatum looks like Tim frck Duncan. Tatum learned that there are better shots than a contested pull up, and worked to hunt them. Ant still thinks every shot he takes is amazing. Sometimes they are amazing, but there's a lot of disapointing possessions in there.

I do wonder a little what they'd look like swapped. Ant driving in all that spacing, supported by very smart boys in Jrue, White, Horford etc. How would Tatum look trying to do point forward stuff with Gobert, Randle, and McDaniels in the way. I still think Tatum is just a flat out better decision maker, but the dramatic difference in offensive environment feel stark.
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Re: Are the Timberwolves a top 6 team in the West? 

Post#53 » by brutalitops » Tue Nov 26, 2024 9:48 pm

Not right now. We are having a huge issue with the downgrade at PF and while NAW has been great, Conley has struggled with his shot and NAW doesn't raise the team like Conley did.
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Re: Are the Timberwolves a top 6 team in the West? 

Post#54 » by mkot » Tue Nov 26, 2024 9:51 pm

karmew32 wrote:
Klomp wrote:Ask the Denver Nuggets. They've made an identical drop this season, yet their only recourse going forward is.....what exactly?

Their recourse is to cope by crying into their 2023 title banner.


Exactly.

It just makes very little sense for them to decide to take a step back (I know it's a financial decision) when they were as close as they have ever been. They have the flexibility of what? They are trading KAT to keep Reid and McDaniels anyway so they aren't trading them. What values does Randle yield in the trade market realistically? I thought they could become a more versatile against most matchups with the addition of Randle and DDV but turns out KAT is the culture guy in this group and is the bridge connecting Gobert and the rest of the guys. Also losing Kyle Anderson is losing another playmaker and adult on this team which is lacking when Conley is not on the court. Not sure what's going on with DDV, I agreed that he is a dawg on the perimeter but I always think he gamble too much and it's actually not very good 1on1. He wanted to start and have a bigger role on the Knicks team then got traded and still not starting, not sure if the coaching staff and he can figure this out.

The Raptor game last week was the lowest of the low, but the Boston game was actually encouraging that they did fight back after down as big as 20pts. The new CBA forces alot of West teams to take one or two step back so like some had said they are still in the 2nd tier behind OKC and with Chet's injury who knows.
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Re: Are the Timberwolves a top 6 team in the West? 

Post#55 » by Black star » Tue Nov 26, 2024 10:11 pm

cupcakesnake wrote:
bledredwine wrote:I'm disappointed in Edwards' lack of improvement.

I really thought that he'd make a leap this year, but he looks similar to last year.


He's made a leap, just not the one we were hoping for. Everyone who has watched Ant (even people who just tuned in for his playoff run) wanted him to make a playmaking leap. Turn some of those deadly drives into passing reads that generate easy offense for his team. It's what superstars need to do to be elite offensive anchors.

His playmaking isn't elite but I would argue it is serviceable as far as a shooting guard is concerned. He was averaging 6 assists in the playoffs last year although he has definitely taken a step in the wrong direction so far this regular season.

The biggest issue he needs to fix is his free throw rate. If you look at pretty much every superstar level shooting guards they use the hyper efficiency of the free throw as a major foundation of their game. Even Kobe, who was more of a jump shooter than a slasher, was still consistently at 7+ fta a game at minimum. Edwards is all the way down at 4.3 this season. If he's ever going to make a superstar leap it's going to be when he learns to get to the line more consistently.
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Re: Are the Timberwolves a top 6 team in the West? 

Post#56 » by Dan33185 » Tue Nov 26, 2024 10:13 pm

Pains me to say this, but no. I was hopeful when the Towns trade happened, because I understood the financial reasons for it. But, it's really screwed this team up, and I don't know it it's fixable this year.
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Re: Are the Timberwolves a top 6 team in the West? 

Post#57 » by cupcakesnake » Tue Nov 26, 2024 11:33 pm

Black star wrote:
cupcakesnake wrote:
bledredwine wrote:I'm disappointed in Edwards' lack of improvement.

I really thought that he'd make a leap this year, but he looks similar to last year.


He's made a leap, just not the one we were hoping for. Everyone who has watched Ant (even people who just tuned in for his playoff run) wanted him to make a playmaking leap. Turn some of those deadly drives into passing reads that generate easy offense for his team. It's what superstars need to do to be elite offensive anchors.

His playmaking isn't elite but I would argue it is serviceable as far as a shooting guard is concerned. He was averaging 6 assists in the playoffs last year although he has definitely taken a step in the wrong direction so far this regular season.

The biggest issue he needs to fix is his free throw rate. If you look at pretty much every superstar level shooting guards they use the hyper efficiency of the free throw as a major foundation of their game. Even Kobe, who was more of a jump shooter than a slasher, was still consistently at 7+ fta a game at minimum. Edwards is all the way down at 4.3 this season. If he's ever going to make a superstar leap it's going to be when he learns to get to the line more consistently.


In the playoffs he finally started hitting the corner shooter, and even that simple read felt like it unlocked so much. Our offense in the playoffs was entirely built of Ant drives next to KAT spacing.

The thing is... he's not driving this year. 15 drives per 36 last year, down to 11. 5.6 rim attempts down to 3.9. Elite efficiency on drives reduced closer to average. Rim fg% down 10%. Part of it is KAT's spacing is gone, and there are less interior passers making Gobert into a weapon instead of an obstacle. The free throws you're mentioning are another indicator of the driving game not really happening at the level it probably needs to be at.

Some of this is team construction issues, but Ant shouldn't need perfect conditions to give us strong rim pressure and playmaking. It should be the difference between good and elite, rather than him falling to average at a lot of stuff we can't afford him to be average at.
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Re: Are the Timberwolves a top 6 team in the West? 

Post#58 » by benhillboy » Wed Nov 27, 2024 12:15 am

cupcakesnake wrote:
bledredwine wrote:I'm disappointed in Edwards' lack of improvement.

I really thought that he'd make a leap this year, but he looks similar to last year.


He's made a leap, just not the one we were hoping for. Everyone who has watched Ant (even people who just tuned in for his playoff run) wanted him to make a playmaking leap. Turn some of those deadly drives into passing reads that generate easy offense for his team. It's what superstars need to do to be elite offensive anchors.

Instead, Ant has leveled up as a shooter. He's been wicked effective at it. Like... so far this season he's been probably the most dangerous long range shooter in the league. #2 in 3-point field goal attemtps, shooting 44%. Only Curry is anywhere near that combo of volume and efficiency. It's cool and all, but only so dangerous if can't combine it with better playmaking. Also he's unlikely to sustain quite this level of shooting. It's gonna come down soon (or worse, what happens if he goes cold for a long stretch?). He's never gotten to the rim so little in his life. His assists are down, but his turnovers are the same. The defense hasn't meaningfully improved and looks worse with a worse backline behind him.

It’s crystal clear to me Ant is trying to coast through the regular season (and the 15+ years of max NBA pay he’s hoping for) to minimize the possibility of injury. NBA players in general are already over the taxing nature of three point rotations on defense. He already knows the incremental stress he places on his lower extremities from the height and landing of his jump shot alone. Very smart on his part, but awful for fans who know full well he can dribble drive attack most defenders at will and log way more max effort defensive possessions than he is.

As far as the three point barrage I think he truly believes he can finish the season taking 11-12 at .415, he has a little wiggle room now lol. He had some horribly flat ones in the last game but his form is so beautiful I’ll go along with him on this ride to see if he can accomplish such lofty volume + efficiency goals. No one outside Steph’s close friend & family circle thought he’d revolutionize the game, I’m all for outlandish dreams.

As far as his playmaking, ho hum. I’ll turn on Ja instead if I wanna see the most entertaining combination of high flying athleticism coupled with heady initiation and use of driving gravity to facilitate team ball movement. Don Mitch to a slightly lesser extent: he’s not converting dunks into layups in midair with regularity lol. If Ant isn’t very comfortable in screen ball handler roles by now I can’t see his overall playmaking taking that jump like you referenced with Tatum. Players who assume key role player positions early in their careers just naturally add major facets to their games more smoothly due to their wider perspective (PG-13, Jimmy, Kawhi, Brunson, and SGA the best examples off top). Tatum’s main 2 tasks as a rookie were to be rock solid off ball defensively and timely foul shot forcing (I think the murdeous corner three point shooting was a revelation to the Celts). The playmaking, shooting range, low activity yet high impact defensive roving, and hellish playoff rebounding were gradually, and expertly, built over time save for his little wannabe Kobe phase. Ant was told he was the man from day one.

If and when they get to the playoffs I fully expect the same guy we saw most of last season’s tournament who forces the paint to frantically collapse for about 15-20 possessions and press full court for about 5-7. Is he gonna kick it to NAW or bounce/ lob/ shovel to Gobert remains to be seen. Conley’s drop off and the loss of Kyle’s floor IQ does amplify his shortcomings in that area a significant amount.
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Re: Are the Timberwolves a top 6 team in the West? 

Post#59 » by Klomp » Wed Nov 27, 2024 1:01 am

cupcakesnake wrote:The thing is... he's not driving this year. 15 drives per 36 last year, down to 11. 5.6 rim attempts down to 3.9. Elite efficiency on drives reduced closer to average. Rim fg% down 10%. Part of it is KAT's spacing is gone, and there are less interior passers making Gobert into a weapon instead of an obstacle. The free throws you're mentioning are another indicator of the driving game not really happening at the level it probably needs to be at.

The refs just don't give him respect on the drives. I'd argue he 3s are more efficient than continuing to drive into defenses and get no calls.

Also, I think there's something to Julius doing more ballhandling than Towns did. Edwards is more of a play finisher than a play creator now, at least early in this transition.
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Re: Are the Timberwolves a top 6 team in the West? 

Post#60 » by Riot Randolph » Wed Nov 27, 2024 2:56 am

cgf wrote:Wolves will be better once they gel, Knicks shot themselves in the foot and are now banking on Mitchell Robinson staying healthy to save them...

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