Top 10 Bulls of the post dynasty era

[DuckIII]

On Lavine, he's pretty clearly a uniquely and elitely talented basketball player even by NBA standards. I have him 3rd, but in a completely different tier (all to himself) than not just Rose, but Butler as well. In Butler's case, at his peak performance for the Bulls he was comparable as a scorer to Lavine while also being one of the very best defensive wings in the NBA. Its not really much of a contest when you consider the entirety of what winning players do to, well, win.

The Rose argument is kinda easy to deal with. Strat truly is the only person who would take the position that the best post-Dynasty Bull has been Lavine. Why debate that? I love Lavine, but its a preposterous premise and the cherry-picked arguments required to support it simply further confirm the counterpoint.

Teams won't even trade for Lavine. Teams were terrified of Rose and would have gladly given kingmaker trade packages to get him.

And yet you can't tell me what Rose did better. The Bulls traded Rose and Holiday for Robin Lopez, Jerian Grant and Jose Calderon and had to throw in a pick to do that. I don't believe Calderon ever played a minute. I'm sure if you want to trade Lavine, Craig and a draft pick for the equivalent of Robin Lopez teams will line up.

Why would I recommend not debating with the nonsense that only you purport to believe, and then take the bait and debate you myself? Enjoy your opinion.

[Stratmaster]

On Lavine, he's pretty clearly a uniquely and elitely talented basketball player even by NBA standards. I have him 3rd, but in a completely different tier (all to himself) than not just Rose, but Butler as well. In Butler's case, at his peak performance for the Bulls he was comparable as a scorer to Lavine while also being one of the very best defensive wings in the NBA. Its not really much of a contest when you consider the entirety of what winning players do to, well, win.

The Rose argument is kinda easy to deal with. Strat truly is the only person who would take the position that the best post-Dynasty Bull has been Lavine. Why debate that? I love Lavine, but its a preposterous premise and the cherry-picked arguments required to support it simply further confirm the counterpoint.

Teams won't even trade for Lavine. Teams were terrified of Rose and would have gladly given kingmaker trade packages to get him.

And yet you can't tell me what Rose did better. The Bulls traded Rose and Holiday for Robin Lopez, Jerian Grant and Jose Calderon and had to throw in a pick to do that. I don't believe Calderon ever played a minute. I'm sure if you want to trade Lavine, Craig and a draft pick for the equivalent of Robin Lopez teams will line up.

Why would I recommend not debating with the nonsense that only you purport to believe, and then take the bait and debate you myself? Enjoy your opinion.

Gee thanks.

If you didn't want to debate it with me. Maybe you shouldn't have... well... debated it. Which is exactly what you did. I don't remember mentioning your name.

[NZB2323]

From a strictly talent perspective, of course. Let me ask it a different way. What talents did Rose have that Lavine doesn't do just as well.

Passing? Probably.

What does Lavine do better? Shooting. From all 3 levels.

Defending one on one.

Everything else. Pretty much even.

Which skill is most important?

I highly doubt Lavine could have done with Rose did in his MVP season with his starting center and power forward out for a good portion of the season. Even Kurt Thomas who was the backup center was out for a bit which allowed asik to get playing time and develop pretty good as a rookie.

You're avoiding the question. As is everyone else clutching their pearls because someone dare to compare Rose to anyone.

You didn’t respond to my last post and now are accusing other members and “everyone else” of avoiding the question.

[Stratmaster]

I highly doubt Lavine could have done with Rose did in his MVP season with his starting center and power forward out for a good portion of the season. Even Kurt Thomas who was the backup center was out for a bit which allowed asik to get playing time and develop pretty good as a rookie.

You're avoiding the question. As is everyone else clutching their pearls because someone dare to compare Rose to anyone.

You didn’t respond to my last post and now are accusing other members and “everyone else” of avoiding the question.

You don't understand the difference between not seeing a post and therefore not responding, versus responding but not addressing the point?

[Stratmaster]

Is the ability to stay healthy a talent? Is defensive awareness a talent? Is developing chemistry with your teammates a talent? Is making the playoffs a talent?

It’s not like Joakim Noah and Kirk Hinrich were always on teams that were a lot more talented than the teams that Lavine has been on.

This is Lavine’s 8th year on the Bulls and he’s won 1 playoff game.

If he’s so talented why can’t he make the playoffs more? Why can’t he play better in the playoffs? Why can’t he win playoff games?

There's no point discussing this with you. You move the goalpost with every response. You really are going with "Rose was healthier as a Bull than Lavine"? Really?

And yes. Rose and Noah were always on better teams lol. But the debate was who was more talented. Rose or Lavine. It really isn't even that close.

You also asked a couple posts back if the Bulls had Rose this season instead of Lavine would they be better. The answer is obviously no, if for no other reason than the league is a 3 point shooting league now and Rose was a poor 3 point shooter where Zach is elite.

There is no universe where Rose was better defensively than Lavine. Rose couldn't play anyone straight up.

Developing chemistry with teammates?

You're just being ridiculous now.

The word talent doesn’t appear in the OP. He talked about how good players were relative to the rest of the league. Derrick Rose won MVP. Noah made the all-NBA 1st teams

Noah was 4th in MVP voting in 2014, not the most talented team. The 2004-2006 Bulls and 2014 Bulls were not the most talented teams.

And yes, Rose was much better at defense, and would routinely outplay elite point guards head to head. Zach Lavine has had a negative DBPM every year of his career, whereas Rose was +6.8 his MVP year, and Rose played in 81, 78, and 81 games his first 3 seasons. There’s been 2 seasons where Lavine has played 65 games with us and he had a negative +/- in both of them.

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And Rose today would be surrounded by 4 3 point shooters, not Noah, Gibson, Deng, and Bogans.

Zach is like JR Smith. He has skills but he isn’t an elite player.

It seems to me that you’re the one moving the goalposts. You say Zach is more talented for today’s game because he’s a better 3 point shooter, but then he has worse teammates, even though they’re much better 3 point shooters than what Rose’s teammates were and Rose never got to benefit from that spacing.

Is Zach Lavine also more talented than Bill Russell and Kareem because they didn’t shoot 3s?

No one was talking about Noah. You understand that a player on a losing team rarely, if ever, gets MVP votes, right?
We aren't talking about 1 year of their career
Who Rose would be surrounded by doesn't change which is the more talented player,

Here you go. I don't know why I am spending the time. Rose was fantastic. I loved him. But he was just a bit overrated. Lavine is grossly underrated. So who are the greatest Bulls post dynasty era? Lavine has played exactly 1 more game as a Bull than Rose.Here are the top 10 Bulls lists of all time that I could find that have either Rose or Lavine on them and their rankings:

FG Made: Lavine 3466 (7) Rose (9)
3pt FG: Lavine 1101 (1) Rose 350 (N/A)
FT Made: Lavine 1796 (10) Rose 1447 (N/A)
Assists: Rose 2516 (5) Lavine 1765 (N/A) (note that Rose is listed as PG 94% of the time, Lavine 8% FWIW)
Turnovers: Rose 1186 (6th most) Lavine 1178 (7th most)
TO%: Rose 13.3% Lavine 12.5%
Points: Lavine 9829 (6th) Rose 8001 (N/A)
PPG: Lavine 24.1 (3rd) Rose 19.7 (9th)
2PT FG%: Lavine .528 (10) Rose .478 (N/A)
PER: Lavine 19.1 (10) Rose 18.3 (N/A)
TRUE%: Lavine .595 (6) Rose .519 (N/A)
EFG% Lavine .549 (4) Rose .474 (N/A)
USG% Lavine 29.2 (2) Rose 28.2 (4)
OBox +/- Lavine 3.0 (5) Rose 2.7 (8)
VORP Rose 13.8 (9) Lavine 13.6 (10)
PTS/36 Lavine 25.2 (2) Rose 20.3 (10)

Some non-top 10 numbers:
TS% Lavine .595 (N/A) Rose .519
FT% Lavine 83.5 Rose 81.3
Rebounds Lavine 1900 Rose 1489
Steals Lavine 377 Rose 328
Blocks Rose 155 Lavine 143
FG% Lavine .474 Rose .448
3pt% Lavine .388 Rose .302

To your thought that Rose was better penetrating and scoring at the rim:
Shooting % 0-3 feet: Lavine .666 (32% of his shots) Rose .568 (31.4% of his shots)
And as we saw above, Lavine gets to the FT line more than Rose did.

Impact stats, with Rose playing on a much better team:
WS/48? Rose .0106 Lavine .0102
Box +/- Lavine 1.9 Rose 1.8
VORP Rose 13.8 (9) Lavine 13.6 (10) (as mentioned above)

As far as defense, Zach has more combined blocks and steal; more steals...less blocks. The rest of defensive metrics are complete junk and that is acknowledged by most everyone.

I get that there are a lot of Rolse fanboys because of the team's success, and that there are a lot of people who dismiss Zach because he has always had a bad or mediocre team around him. If you want to make the argument that Rose was still slightly better defensively in his career as a Bull, I don't necessarily agree but it is a reasonable argument. If you want to make the argument that Rose's best season was better than any single season Zach has had. Again reasonable and I really haven't analyzed Zach's best season vs. Rose's MVP season. I can tell you that if the Bulls team record had been the same as this Bulls team Rose wouldn't have been in the MVP discussion.

The offensive numbers aren't even close. Zach is on 14 of the 15 top 10 lists I could find. Rose is on 6 of them. And again, they have played almost the exact same number of games. There are only 2 categories Rose bests Lavine at, and in one the difference is miniscule.

Lavine is a better shooter, a better finisher at the rim, a better 3 point shooter, better in midrange, a better rebounder (as he should be, he is a couple inches taller), and commits less turnovers (although that difference is very small) on higher usage.

Rose only really excels over Lavine in the assist category (as he should, he played almost exclusively as a PG).

[NZB2323]

There's no point discussing this with you. You move the goalpost with every response. You really are going with "Rose was healthier as a Bull than Lavine"? Really?

And yes. Rose and Noah were always on better teams lol. But the debate was who was more talented. Rose or Lavine. It really isn't even that close.

You also asked a couple posts back if the Bulls had Rose this season instead of Lavine would they be better. The answer is obviously no, if for no other reason than the league is a 3 point shooting league now and Rose was a poor 3 point shooter where Zach is elite.

There is no universe where Rose was better defensively than Lavine. Rose couldn't play anyone straight up.

Developing chemistry with teammates?

You're just being ridiculous now.

The word talent doesn’t appear in the OP. He talked about how good players were relative to the rest of the league. Derrick Rose won MVP. Noah made the all-NBA 1st teams

Noah was 4th in MVP voting in 2014, not the most talented team. The 2004-2006 Bulls and 2014 Bulls were not the most talented teams.

And yes, Rose was much better at defense, and would routinely outplay elite point guards head to head. Zach Lavine has had a negative DBPM every year of his career, whereas Rose was +6.8 his MVP year, and Rose played in 81, 78, and 81 games his first 3 seasons. There’s been 2 seasons where Lavine has played 65 games with us and he had a negative +/- in both of them.

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And Rose today would be surrounded by 4 3 point shooters, not Noah, Gibson, Deng, and Bogans.

Zach is like JR Smith. He has skills but he isn’t an elite player.

It seems to me that you’re the one moving the goalposts. You say Zach is more talented for today’s game because he’s a better 3 point shooter, but then he has worse teammates, even though they’re much better 3 point shooters than what Rose’s teammates were and Rose never got to benefit from that spacing.

Is Zach Lavine also more talented than Bill Russell and Kareem because they didn’t shoot 3s?

No one was talking about Noah. You understand that a player on a losing team rarely, if ever, gets MVP votes, right?
We aren't talking about 1 year of their career
Who Rose would be surrounded by doesn't change which is the more talented player,

Here you go. I don't know why I am spending the time. Rose was fantastic. I loved him. But he was just a bit overrated. Lavine is grossly underrated. So who are the greatest Bulls post dynasty era? Lavine has played exactly 1 more game as a Bull than Rose.Here are the top 10 Bulls lists of all time that I could find that have either Rose or Lavine on them and their rankings:

FG Made: Lavine 3466 (7) Rose (9)
3pt FG: Lavine 1101 (1) Rose 350 (N/A)
FT Made: Lavine 1796 (10) Rose 1447 (N/A)
Assists: Rose 2516 (5) Lavine 1765 (N/A) (note that Rose is listed as PG 94% of the time, Lavine 8% FWIW)
Turnovers: Rose 1186 (6th most) Lavine 1178 (7th most)
TO%: Rose 13.3% Lavine 12.5%
Points: Lavine 9829 (6th) Rose 8001 (N/A)
PPG: Lavine 24.1 (3rd) Rose 19.7 (9th)
2PT FG%: Lavine .528 (10) Rose .478 (N/A)
PER: Lavine 19.1 (10) Rose 18.3 (N/A)
TRUE%: Lavine .595 (6) Rose .519 (N/A)
EFG% Lavine .549 (4) Rose .474 (N/A)
USG% Lavine 29.2 (2) Rose 28.2 (4)
OBox +/- Lavine 3.0 (5) Rose 2.7 (8)
VORP Rose 13.8 (9) Lavine 13.6 (10)
PTS/36 Lavine 25.2 (2) Rose 20.3 (10)

Some non-top 10 numbers:
TS% Lavine .595 (N/A) Rose .519
FT% Lavine 83.5 Rose 81.3
Rebounds Lavine 1900 Rose 1489
Steals Lavine 377 Rose 328
Blocks Rose 155 Lavine 143
FG% Lavine .474 Rose .448
3pt% Lavine .388 Rose .302

To your thought that Rose was better penetrating and scoring at the rim:
Shooting % 0-3 feet: Lavine .666 (32% of his shots) Rose .568 (31.4% of his shots)
And as we saw above, Lavine gets to the FT line more than Rose did.

Impact stats, with Rose playing on a much better team:
WS/48? Rose .0106 Lavine .0102
Box +/- Lavine 1.9 Rose 1.8
VORP Rose 13.8 (9) Lavine 13.6 (10) (as mentioned above)

As far as defense, Zach has more combined blocks and steal; more steals...less blocks. The rest of defensive metrics are complete junk and that is acknowledged by most everyone.

I get that there are a lot of Rolse fanboys because of the team's success, and that there are a lot of people who dismiss Zach because he has always had a bad or mediocre team around him. If you want to make the argument that Rose was still slightly better defensively in his career as a Bull, I don't necessarily agree but it is a reasonable argument. If you want to make the argument that Rose's best season was better than any single season Zach has had. Again reasonable and I really haven't analyzed Zach's best season vs. Rose's MVP season. I can tell you that if the Bulls team record had been the same as this Bulls team Rose wouldn't have been in the MVP discussion.

The offensive numbers aren't even close. Zach is on 14 of the 15 top 10 lists I could find. Rose is on 6 of them. And again, they have played almost the exact same number of games. There are only 2 categories Rose bests Lavine at, and in one the difference is miniscule.

Lavine is a better shooter, a better finisher at the rim, a better 3 point shooter, better in midrange, a better rebounder (as he should be, he is a couple inches taller), and commits less turnovers (although that difference is very small) on higher usage.

Rose only really excels over Lavine in the assist category (as he should, he played almost exclusively as a PG).

Lots of people here have Noah and Butler and Rose ranked ahead of Lavine.

You want to talk about impact stats and how everyone is "avoiding the question," yet you just stopped responding to @ThetheGOATRises007 when he lists the impact stats:

Even looking at ESPN's RAPM, Rose placed top 10 twice. LaVine was never close to that.

Looking at EPM, Raptor, etc. LaVine was never top 10 in a single season. Even this current season, I don't even think he's top 25 or close to it.

Rose's ORAPM was 2nd in 2010-2011 season only behind Manu and he was even slightly ahead of LeBron.

Rose's ORAPM was 2nd in the 2011-2012 season on a limited sample size(not as many games played as others) and only LeBron in his absolute prime was ahead of him.

And I'm supposed to believe LaVine is more talented than him. Give me a break. I like LaVine too and I think he's harshly judged, but he's nowhere near our most talented player since MJ.

I told you his impact metrics during his MVP and subsequent season dwarf LaVine's

You ignored it

But we won't see eye to eye if you think LaVine is the most talented Bulls player post MJ

That's an egregious stance to take

I gave you 2 impact stats. I gave you the scoring and efficiency numbers. You have given nothing but your opinion. You "told me" his impact stats dwarf Lavines? You haven't given a single one.

Again. Name something Rose did better than Lavine does.

Rose is better than LaVine for winning basketball games. That's all I care about. You already tried to argue LaVine played with lesser offensive players than Rose which is laughable. I mean just laughable.

You can literally go look up the impact stats. I can't even believe you're trying to argue LaVine is more talented than Rose....

Rose's BPM his 2 best seasons destroy LaVine's. His WS hit 13.8 his MVP season. LaVine's never been close to that. Much higher PER in his 2 best seasons.

LaVine is our most talented player since Jordan, but we've been a treadmill team during his time here. It does not compute.

And you're the only person on this board(or any Bulls fandom page) who thinks LaVine is our most talented player since Jordan.

Do you really think if you swapped Rose from 2010-2011 with LaVine now, we'd still be a sub .500 team?

Or the Bulls then wouldn't get much worse? If so, just wow...

So if we go by prime, Rose was miles ahead his MVP season per impact metrics. If you want cumulative impact metrics from the Bulls.

If you go by WS all time for the Bulls Deng is 6th, Noah is 7th, Butler is 8th, and Lavine isn't top 10.

If you go by BPM Butler is 4th, Noah is 8th, and Lavine isn't top 10.

If you go by VORP Noah is 4th, Deng is 5th, Butler is 6th, Rose is 9th, and Lavine is 10th.

Rose didn't get to play with 4 guys who could shoot 3s. Often times he played with 0 players who shoot 3s.

He's better at penetrating, passing, and defense. Where is it aklowedged that defensive impact stats are complete junk and blocks and steals are the only way to measure it? Blocking a game winning shot in a playoff game doesn't count? Does Lavine only making the playoffs once and playing poorly not count? If we were to look at playoff impact metrics for the Chicago Bulls, Lavine isn't making the top 10 and probably doesn't make the top 100.

I know you need teammates, but this is Zach's 8th year with us and he's won 1 playoff game.

Joakim Noah won a playoff series in 2013 with Nate Robinson and Marco Belinelli. Zach couldn't win 2 playoff games with Vuc and Derozan.

Deng won a playoff series in 2007 with Kirk Hinirch and Ben Gordon. Zach couldn't win 2 playoff games with Vuc and Derozan.

Rose pushed the Celtics to 7 games with John Salmons and Ben Gordon. Zach couldn't win 2 playoff games with Vuc and Derozan.

In 2017 Butler had a 30 year old Rondo and a 35 year old Dwayne Wade. Are they better than Vuc and Derozan?

We can compare some playoff runs:

2022 Lavine: 19, 6, and 5, 55.3 TS%, 13.8 PER
2011 Rose: 27, 8, and 4, 49.9 TS%, 22.5 PER
2010 Noah: 15, 13, and 3, 60.3 TS%, 20.2 PER
2015 Butler: 23, 6, and 3, 56.2 TS%, 20.8 PER
2007 Deng: 22, 9, and 2, 57.5 TS%, 21.7 PER

The 1 time Lavine made the playoffs with us, both DeRozan and Vuc outplayed him in the playoffs, but somehow he's the most talented Bull since 1998 and it's not his fault he can't make the playoffs, play well in the playoffs, or win playoff games because he doesn't play with any good players except the 2 that outplayed him in the playoffs, and have had better playoff runs in their careers. If Vuc and Derozan aren't any good, then why couldn't "the most talented Bull since Jordan" outplay them in the playoffs?

[dougthonus]

1. Lavine
2. Rose
3. Noah
4. Butler
5. Deng
6. DDR
7. Hinrich
8. Vuc

That's as far as my list goes. The rest of the top 20 you could put in a hat and draw names.

It is based on the OP definition of talent as compared to the rest of the league. It does not factor in the quality of teammates/team and I am only considering the years they were Bulls. Not their entire career.

Prior to this year, Vuc has been in the bottom 2 in net rating every year among rotation players. His statistical output has been absolutely god awful in two of his 3.5 years and average in 1. I have no idea how this guy gets above your "draw names out of a hat" group, but someone like Javonte Green or DJJ had a more positive impact than Vuc on wins and losses up until this half season where he's now playing extremely well.

[Red8911]

1. Rose
2.Jimmy
3. Noah
4. DeRozan
5. Kirk
6. Ben Gordon
7. Deng
8. Gasol
9. Zach
10. Vucevic

Boozer, Brand,Jalen Rose, Chandler can be top 10 as well.

[Stratmaster]

The word talent doesn’t appear in the OP. He talked about how good players were relative to the rest of the league. Derrick Rose won MVP. Noah made the all-NBA 1st teams

Noah was 4th in MVP voting in 2014, not the most talented team. The 2004-2006 Bulls and 2014 Bulls were not the most talented teams.

And yes, Rose was much better at defense, and would routinely outplay elite point guards head to head. Zach Lavine has had a negative DBPM every year of his career, whereas Rose was +6.8 his MVP year, and Rose played in 81, 78, and 81 games his first 3 seasons. There’s been 2 seasons where Lavine has played 65 games with us and he had a negative +/- in both of them.

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And Rose today would be surrounded by 4 3 point shooters, not Noah, Gibson, Deng, and Bogans.

Zach is like JR Smith. He has skills but he isn’t an elite player.

It seems to me that you’re the one moving the goalposts. You say Zach is more talented for today’s game because he’s a better 3 point shooter, but then he has worse teammates, even though they’re much better 3 point shooters than what Rose’s teammates were and Rose never got to benefit from that spacing.

Is Zach Lavine also more talented than Bill Russell and Kareem because they didn’t shoot 3s?

No one was talking about Noah. You understand that a player on a losing team rarely, if ever, gets MVP votes, right?
We aren't talking about 1 year of their career
Who Rose would be surrounded by doesn't change which is the more talented player,

Here you go. I don't know why I am spending the time. Rose was fantastic. I loved him. But he was just a bit overrated. Lavine is grossly underrated. So who are the greatest Bulls post dynasty era? Lavine has played exactly 1 more game as a Bull than Rose.Here are the top 10 Bulls lists of all time that I could find that have either Rose or Lavine on them and their rankings:

FG Made: Lavine 3466 (7) Rose (9)
3pt FG: Lavine 1101 (1) Rose 350 (N/A)
FT Made: Lavine 1796 (10) Rose 1447 (N/A)
Assists: Rose 2516 (5) Lavine 1765 (N/A) (note that Rose is listed as PG 94% of the time, Lavine 8% FWIW)
Turnovers: Rose 1186 (6th most) Lavine 1178 (7th most)
TO%: Rose 13.3% Lavine 12.5%
Points: Lavine 9829 (6th) Rose 8001 (N/A)
PPG: Lavine 24.1 (3rd) Rose 19.7 (9th)
2PT FG%: Lavine .528 (10) Rose .478 (N/A)
PER: Lavine 19.1 (10) Rose 18.3 (N/A)
TRUE%: Lavine .595 (6) Rose .519 (N/A)
EFG% Lavine .549 (4) Rose .474 (N/A)
USG% Lavine 29.2 (2) Rose 28.2 (4)
OBox +/- Lavine 3.0 (5) Rose 2.7 (8)
VORP Rose 13.8 (9) Lavine 13.6 (10)
PTS/36 Lavine 25.2 (2) Rose 20.3 (10)

Some non-top 10 numbers:
TS% Lavine .595 (N/A) Rose .519
FT% Lavine 83.5 Rose 81.3
Rebounds Lavine 1900 Rose 1489
Steals Lavine 377 Rose 328
Blocks Rose 155 Lavine 143
FG% Lavine .474 Rose .448
3pt% Lavine .388 Rose .302

To your thought that Rose was better penetrating and scoring at the rim:
Shooting % 0-3 feet: Lavine .666 (32% of his shots) Rose .568 (31.4% of his shots)
And as we saw above, Lavine gets to the FT line more than Rose did.

Impact stats, with Rose playing on a much better team:
WS/48? Rose .0106 Lavine .0102
Box +/- Lavine 1.9 Rose 1.8
VORP Rose 13.8 (9) Lavine 13.6 (10) (as mentioned above)

As far as defense, Zach has more combined blocks and steal; more steals...less blocks. The rest of defensive metrics are complete junk and that is acknowledged by most everyone.

I get that there are a lot of Rolse fanboys because of the team's success, and that there are a lot of people who dismiss Zach because he has always had a bad or mediocre team around him. If you want to make the argument that Rose was still slightly better defensively in his career as a Bull, I don't necessarily agree but it is a reasonable argument. If you want to make the argument that Rose's best season was better than any single season Zach has had. Again reasonable and I really haven't analyzed Zach's best season vs. Rose's MVP season. I can tell you that if the Bulls team record had been the same as this Bulls team Rose wouldn't have been in the MVP discussion.

The offensive numbers aren't even close. Zach is on 14 of the 15 top 10 lists I could find. Rose is on 6 of them. And again, they have played almost the exact same number of games. There are only 2 categories Rose bests Lavine at, and in one the difference is miniscule.

Lavine is a better shooter, a better finisher at the rim, a better 3 point shooter, better in midrange, a better rebounder (as he should be, he is a couple inches taller), and commits less turnovers (although that difference is very small) on higher usage.

Rose only really excels over Lavine in the assist category (as he should, he played almost exclusively as a PG).

Lots of people here have Noah and Butler and Rose ranked ahead of Lavine.

You want to talk about impact stats and how everyone is "avoiding the question," yet you just stopped responding to @ThetheGOATRises007 when he lists the impact stats:

Even looking at ESPN's RAPM, Rose placed top 10 twice. LaVine was never close to that.

Looking at EPM, Raptor, etc. LaVine was never top 10 in a single season. Even this current season, I don't even think he's top 25 or close to it.

Rose's ORAPM was 2nd in 2010-2011 season only behind Manu and he was even slightly ahead of LeBron.

Rose's ORAPM was 2nd in the 2011-2012 season on a limited sample size(not as many games played as others) and only LeBron in his absolute prime was ahead of him.

And I'm supposed to believe LaVine is more talented than him. Give me a break. I like LaVine too and I think he's harshly judged, but he's nowhere near our most talented player since MJ.

I gave you 2 impact stats. I gave you the scoring and efficiency numbers. You have given nothing but your opinion. You "told me" his impact stats dwarf Lavines? You haven't given a single one.

Again. Name something Rose did better than Lavine does.

Rose is better than LaVine for winning basketball games. That's all I care about. You already tried to argue LaVine played with lesser offensive players than Rose which is laughable. I mean just laughable.

You can literally go look up the impact stats. I can't even believe you're trying to argue LaVine is more talented than Rose....

Rose's BPM his 2 best seasons destroy LaVine's. His WS hit 13.8 his MVP season. LaVine's never been close to that. Much higher PER in his 2 best seasons.

LaVine is our most talented player since Jordan, but we've been a treadmill team during his time here. It does not compute.

And you're the only person on this board(or any Bulls fandom page) who thinks LaVine is our most talented player since Jordan.

Do you really think if you swapped Rose from 2010-2011 with LaVine now, we'd still be a sub .500 team?

Or the Bulls then wouldn't get much worse? If so, just wow...

So if we go by prime, Rose was miles ahead his MVP season per impact metrics. If you want cumulative impact metrics from the Bulls.

If you go by WS all time for the Bulls Deng is 6th, Noah is 7th, Butler is 8th, and Lavine isn't top 10.

If you go by BPM Butler is 4th, Noah is 8th, and Lavine isn't top 10.

If you go by VORP Noah is 4th, Deng is 5th, Butler is 6th, Rose is 9th, and Lavine is 10th.

Rose didn't get to play with 4 guys who could shoot 3s. Often times he played with 0 players who shoot 3s.

He's better at penetrating, passing, and defense. Where is it aklowedged that defensive impact stats are complete junk and blocks and steals are the only way to measure it? Blocking a game winning shot in a playoff game doesn't count? Does Lavine only making the playoffs once and playing poorly not count? If we were to look at playoff impact metrics for the Chicago Bulls, Lavine isn't making the top 10 and probably doesn't make the top 100.

I know you need teammates, but this is Zach's 8th year with us and he's won 1 playoff game.

Joakim Noah won a playoff series in 2013 with Nate Robinson and Marco Belinelli. Zach couldn't win 2 playoff games with Vuc and Derozan.

Deng won a playoff series in 2007 with Kirk Hinirch and Ben Gordon. Zach couldn't win 2 playoff games with Vuc and Derozan.

Rose pushed the Celtics to 7 games with John Salmons and Ben Gordon. Zach couldn't win 2 playoff games with Vuc and Derozan.

In 2017 Butler had a 30 year old Rondo and a 35 year old Dwayne Wade. Are they better than Vuc and Derozan?

We can compare some playoff runs:

2022 Lavine: 19, 6, and 5, 55.3 TS%, 13.8 PER
2011 Rose: 27, 8, and 4, 49.9 TS%, 22.5 PER
2010 Noah: 15, 13, and 3, 60.3 TS%, 20.2 PER
2015 Butler: 23, 6, and 3, 56.2 TS%, 20.8 PER
2007 Deng: 22, 9, and 2, 57.5 TS%, 21.7 PER

The 1 time Lavine made the playoffs with us, both DeRozan and Vuc outplayed him in the playoffs, but somehow he's the most talented Bull since 1998 and it's not his fault he can't make the playoffs, play well in the playoffs, or win playoff games because he doesn't play with any good players except the 2 that outplayed him in the playoffs, and have had better playoff runs in their careers. If Vuc and Derozan aren't any good, then why couldn't "the most talented Bull since Jordan" outplay them in the playoffs?

Describe how your quoted impact stats are calculated and why it makes sense to use them comparing numbers from the league in 2009 to 2025. They are calculated by starting with acknowledged bad data and then trying to manipulate it to make it good data. Garbage in and garbage out.

I was discussing Rose. Not Noah. But no objective analysis would list Noah as a better basketball player than Lavine. That is lunacy. Basically what you are trying to say is everyone who played on the Rose/Noah Bulls is better than everyone who played during the Lavine area because "playoffs, playoffs, playoffs".

Basically your argument is "a bunch of other message board posters like Rose better so that means he is better". Followed by playoffs, playoffs, playoffs when you know the 2 teams aren't comparable in overall talent. You know that the Bulls teams Rose was on only won 2 playoff series; both in the same season.

[Stratmaster]

1. Lavine
2. Rose
3. Noah
4. Butler
5. Deng
6. DDR
7. Hinrich
8. Vuc

That's as far as my list goes. The rest of the top 20 you could put in a hat and draw names.

It is based on the OP definition of talent as compared to the rest of the league. It does not factor in the quality of teammates/team and I am only considering the years they were Bulls. Not their entire career.

Prior to this year, Vuc has been in the bottom 2 in net rating every year among rotation players. His statistical output has been absolutely god awful in two of his 3.5 years and average in 1. I have no idea how this guy gets above your "draw names out of a hat" group, but someone like Javonte Green or DJJ had a more positive impact than Vuc on wins and losses up until this half season where he's now playing extremely well.

I said best talent. I didn't say positive impact. And lets face it, the Bulls haven't had much talent since the dynasty other than the Rose/Noah teams, Zach and Demar. You don't have to be very good to be on the top 10 talent list.

[Stratmaster]

In the Lavine/Rose debate it is interesting that there are 8 total Rose era Bulls who made the lists, most of them regularly. There are 3 from the Lavine era. Yet some people debating on Rose's behalf keep insinuating Zach Lavine should have somehow carried the Bulls to the playoffs by himself, and acting like Rose did it all on his own. 1 even saying that Rose had it tougher because he didn't have 3 point shooters around him.

[dougthonus]

I said best talent. I didn't say positive impact. And lets face it, the Bulls haven't had much talent since the dynasty other than the Rose/Noah teams, Zach and Demar. You don't have to be very good to be on the top 10 talent list.

What does talent mean if it doesn't create meaningful results (like efficient shooting, scoring, defense, something else). If you only want to talk about skills without the ability to utilize those skills to create positive impact, there are probably a great number of guys that are far more talented than NBA players but simply lack the athleticism/size to utilize their talents in the NBA.

[Red8911]

In the Lavine/Rose debate it is interesting that there are 8 total Rose era Bulls who made the lists, most of them regularly. There are 3 from the Lavine era. Yet some people debating on Rose's behalf keep insinuating Zach Lavine should have somehow carried the Bulls to the playoffs by himself, and acting like Rose did it all on his own. 1 even saying that Rose had it tougher because he didn't have 3 point shooters around him.

The MVP Rose did actually carry his team that’s why he was MVP that season. Zach was never in that level to be able to do that.

Post ACL Rose is out of this conversation, he was never the same after that . Zach at least came back from his injury like nothing happened.

The 2-3 year Rose though was on another level compared to Zach at any point of his career.

[League Circles]

1. Lavine
2. Rose
3. Noah
4. Butler
5. Deng
6. DDR
7. Hinrich
8. Vuc

That's as far as my list goes. The rest of the top 20 you could put in a hat and draw names.

It is based on the OP definition of talent as compared to the rest of the league. It does not factor in the quality of teammates/team and I am only considering the years they were Bulls. Not their entire career.

LaVine is not more talented than Rose.

LaVine isn't even a top 10 talent in the league.

Rose was a consensus top 10 talent and likely top 5 talent.

We aren't comparing them to the other players in the league at the time. Name something you think Rose did better than Lavine does.

Lavine scored 1700 more points than Rose in the same number of games as a Bull. He is a better shooter, and a better 3 point shooter. Lavine is a better rebounder. Rose gets an edge on assists but was never a huge assist guy, and lets face it he had better offensive players around him to make shots.

Rose's best TS% with the Bulls was .550. Rose shot under 45% from the field and 30% from 3. Rose certainly wasn't a better defender.

EDIT: before someone says it. Rose had a higher turnover percentage than Lavine, and they both averaged 2.9 per game.

I respect your opinion and don't think it's that crazy based on my stated criteria, but IMO Rose was a way better dribble penetrator than Zach (and in fact the best in the league at that time and one of the very best ever), which put tremendous pressure on defenses. Also, Rose definitely had worse offensive teammates IMO than Zach.

Rose was also a way better defender than Zach, though Zach is significantly improved this year so far.

[League Circles]

Playoff wins wasn't the topic. It was talent. You have to have a good team to get to the playoffs.

Is the ability to stay healthy a talent? Is defensive awareness a talent? Is developing chemistry with your teammates a talent? Is making the playoffs a talent?

It’s not like Joakim Noah and Kirk Hinrich were always on teams that were a lot more talented than the teams that Lavine has been on.

This is Lavine’s 8th year on the Bulls and he’s won 1 playoff game.

If he’s so talented why can’t he make the playoffs more? Why can’t he play better in the playoffs? Why can’t he win playoff games?

There's no point discussing this with you. You move the goalpost with every response. You really are going with "Rose was healthier as a Bull than Lavine"? Really?

And yes. Rose and Noah were always on better teams lol. But the debate was who was more talented. Rose or Lavine. It really isn't even that close.

You also asked a couple posts back if the Bulls had Rose this season instead of Lavine would they be better. The answer is obviously no, if for no other reason than the league is a 3 point shooting league now and Rose was a poor 3 point shooter where Zach is elite.

There is no universe where Rose was better defensively than Lavine. Rose couldn't play anyone straight up.

Developing chemistry with teammates?

You're just being ridiculous now.

Lmfao Rose pre injury with Thibbs was nearly as good of a defender at the 1 position as there was in the league. Excellent defender for a couple years.

[NZB2323]

No one was talking about Noah. You understand that a player on a losing team rarely, if ever, gets MVP votes, right?
We aren't talking about 1 year of their career
Who Rose would be surrounded by doesn't change which is the more talented player,

Here you go. I don't know why I am spending the time. Rose was fantastic. I loved him. But he was just a bit overrated. Lavine is grossly underrated. So who are the greatest Bulls post dynasty era? Lavine has played exactly 1 more game as a Bull than Rose.Here are the top 10 Bulls lists of all time that I could find that have either Rose or Lavine on them and their rankings:

FG Made: Lavine 3466 (7) Rose (9)
3pt FG: Lavine 1101 (1) Rose 350 (N/A)
FT Made: Lavine 1796 (10) Rose 1447 (N/A)
Assists: Rose 2516 (5) Lavine 1765 (N/A) (note that Rose is listed as PG 94% of the time, Lavine 8% FWIW)
Turnovers: Rose 1186 (6th most) Lavine 1178 (7th most)
TO%: Rose 13.3% Lavine 12.5%
Points: Lavine 9829 (6th) Rose 8001 (N/A)
PPG: Lavine 24.1 (3rd) Rose 19.7 (9th)
2PT FG%: Lavine .528 (10) Rose .478 (N/A)
PER: Lavine 19.1 (10) Rose 18.3 (N/A)
TRUE%: Lavine .595 (6) Rose .519 (N/A)
EFG% Lavine .549 (4) Rose .474 (N/A)
USG% Lavine 29.2 (2) Rose 28.2 (4)
OBox +/- Lavine 3.0 (5) Rose 2.7 (8)
VORP Rose 13.8 (9) Lavine 13.6 (10)
PTS/36 Lavine 25.2 (2) Rose 20.3 (10)

Some non-top 10 numbers:
TS% Lavine .595 (N/A) Rose .519
FT% Lavine 83.5 Rose 81.3
Rebounds Lavine 1900 Rose 1489
Steals Lavine 377 Rose 328
Blocks Rose 155 Lavine 143
FG% Lavine .474 Rose .448
3pt% Lavine .388 Rose .302

To your thought that Rose was better penetrating and scoring at the rim:
Shooting % 0-3 feet: Lavine .666 (32% of his shots) Rose .568 (31.4% of his shots)
And as we saw above, Lavine gets to the FT line more than Rose did.

Impact stats, with Rose playing on a much better team:
WS/48? Rose .0106 Lavine .0102
Box +/- Lavine 1.9 Rose 1.8
VORP Rose 13.8 (9) Lavine 13.6 (10) (as mentioned above)

As far as defense, Zach has more combined blocks and steal; more steals...less blocks. The rest of defensive metrics are complete junk and that is acknowledged by most everyone.

I get that there are a lot of Rolse fanboys because of the team's success, and that there are a lot of people who dismiss Zach because he has always had a bad or mediocre team around him. If you want to make the argument that Rose was still slightly better defensively in his career as a Bull, I don't necessarily agree but it is a reasonable argument. If you want to make the argument that Rose's best season was better than any single season Zach has had. Again reasonable and I really haven't analyzed Zach's best season vs. Rose's MVP season. I can tell you that if the Bulls team record had been the same as this Bulls team Rose wouldn't have been in the MVP discussion.

The offensive numbers aren't even close. Zach is on 14 of the 15 top 10 lists I could find. Rose is on 6 of them. And again, they have played almost the exact same number of games. There are only 2 categories Rose bests Lavine at, and in one the difference is miniscule.

Lavine is a better shooter, a better finisher at the rim, a better 3 point shooter, better in midrange, a better rebounder (as he should be, he is a couple inches taller), and commits less turnovers (although that difference is very small) on higher usage.

Rose only really excels over Lavine in the assist category (as he should, he played almost exclusively as a PG).

Lots of people here have Noah and Butler and Rose ranked ahead of Lavine.

You want to talk about impact stats and how everyone is "avoiding the question," yet you just stopped responding to @ThetheGOATRises007 when he lists the impact stats:

Even looking at ESPN's RAPM, Rose placed top 10 twice. LaVine was never close to that.

Looking at EPM, Raptor, etc. LaVine was never top 10 in a single season. Even this current season, I don't even think he's top 25 or close to it.

Rose's ORAPM was 2nd in 2010-2011 season only behind Manu and he was even slightly ahead of LeBron.

Rose's ORAPM was 2nd in the 2011-2012 season on a limited sample size(not as many games played as others) and only LeBron in his absolute prime was ahead of him.

And I'm supposed to believe LaVine is more talented than him. Give me a break. I like LaVine too and I think he's harshly judged, but he's nowhere near our most talented player since MJ.

Rose is better than LaVine for winning basketball games. That's all I care about. You already tried to argue LaVine played with lesser offensive players than Rose which is laughable. I mean just laughable.

You can literally go look up the impact stats. I can't even believe you're trying to argue LaVine is more talented than Rose....

Rose's BPM his 2 best seasons destroy LaVine's. His WS hit 13.8 his MVP season. LaVine's never been close to that. Much higher PER in his 2 best seasons.

LaVine is our most talented player since Jordan, but we've been a treadmill team during his time here. It does not compute.

And you're the only person on this board(or any Bulls fandom page) who thinks LaVine is our most talented player since Jordan.

Do you really think if you swapped Rose from 2010-2011 with LaVine now, we'd still be a sub .500 team?

Or the Bulls then wouldn't get much worse? If so, just wow...

So if we go by prime, Rose was miles ahead his MVP season per impact metrics. If you want cumulative impact metrics from the Bulls.

If you go by WS all time for the Bulls Deng is 6th, Noah is 7th, Butler is 8th, and Lavine isn't top 10.

If you go by BPM Butler is 4th, Noah is 8th, and Lavine isn't top 10.

If you go by VORP Noah is 4th, Deng is 5th, Butler is 6th, Rose is 9th, and Lavine is 10th.

Rose didn't get to play with 4 guys who could shoot 3s. Often times he played with 0 players who shoot 3s.

He's better at penetrating, passing, and defense. Where is it aklowedged that defensive impact stats are complete junk and blocks and steals are the only way to measure it? Blocking a game winning shot in a playoff game doesn't count? Does Lavine only making the playoffs once and playing poorly not count? If we were to look at playoff impact metrics for the Chicago Bulls, Lavine isn't making the top 10 and probably doesn't make the top 100.

I know you need teammates, but this is Zach's 8th year with us and he's won 1 playoff game.

Joakim Noah won a playoff series in 2013 with Nate Robinson and Marco Belinelli. Zach couldn't win 2 playoff games with Vuc and Derozan.

Deng won a playoff series in 2007 with Kirk Hinirch and Ben Gordon. Zach couldn't win 2 playoff games with Vuc and Derozan.

Rose pushed the Celtics to 7 games with John Salmons and Ben Gordon. Zach couldn't win 2 playoff games with Vuc and Derozan.

In 2017 Butler had a 30 year old Rondo and a 35 year old Dwayne Wade. Are they better than Vuc and Derozan?

We can compare some playoff runs:

2022 Lavine: 19, 6, and 5, 55.3 TS%, 13.8 PER
2011 Rose: 27, 8, and 4, 49.9 TS%, 22.5 PER
2010 Noah: 15, 13, and 3, 60.3 TS%, 20.2 PER
2015 Butler: 23, 6, and 3, 56.2 TS%, 20.8 PER
2007 Deng: 22, 9, and 2, 57.5 TS%, 21.7 PER

The 1 time Lavine made the playoffs with us, both DeRozan and Vuc outplayed him in the playoffs, but somehow he's the most talented Bull since 1998 and it's not his fault he can't make the playoffs, play well in the playoffs, or win playoff games because he doesn't play with any good players except the 2 that outplayed him in the playoffs, and have had better playoff runs in their careers. If Vuc and Derozan aren't any good, then why couldn't "the most talented Bull since Jordan" outplay them in the playoffs?

Describe how your quoted impact stats are calculated and why it makes sense to use them comparing numbers from the league in 2009 to 2025. They are calculated by starting with acknowledged bad data and then trying to manipulate it to make it good data. Garbage in and garbage out.

I was discussing Rose. Not Noah. But no objective analysis would list Noah as a better basketball player than Lavine. That is lunacy. Basically what you are trying to say is everyone who played on the Rose/Noah Bulls is better than everyone who played during the Lavine area because "playoffs, playoffs, playoffs".

Basically your argument is "a bunch of other message board posters like Rose better so that means he is better". Followed by playoffs, playoffs, playoffs when you know the 2 teams aren't comparable in overall talen t. You know that Rose only was

So you can use impact stats but other people can't? You can use blocks and steals to measure how good someone is at defense but other people can't? Where is it acknowledged that it starts with bad data? These stats are created by professional statisticians.

This is how Win Shares, which is a stat that you used, is calculated:

Offensive Rating
In Dean's words, "Individual offensive rating is the number of points produced by a player per hundred total individual possessions. In other words, 'How many points is a player likely to generate when he tries?'"

The basic building blocks of the Offensive Rating calculation are Individual Total Possessions and Individual Points Produced. The formula for Total Possessions is broken down into four components: Scoring Possessions, Missed FG Possessions, Missed FT Possessions, and Turnovers.

The Scoring Possessions formula is by far the most complex:

ScPoss = (FG_Part + AST_Part + FT_Part) * (1 - (Team_ORB / Team_Scoring_Poss) * Team_ORB_Weight * Team_Play%) + ORB_Part
where:

FG_Part = FGM * (1 - 0.5 * ((PTS - FTM) / (2 * FGA)) * qAST)
qAST = ((MP / (Team_MP / 5)) * (1.14 * ((Team_AST - AST) / Team_FGM))) + ((((Team_AST / Team_MP) * MP * 5 - AST) / ((Team_FGM / Team_MP) * MP * 5 - FGM)) * (1 - (MP / (Team_MP / 5))))
AST_Part = 0.5 * (((Team_PTS - Team_FTM) - (PTS - FTM)) / (2 * (Team_FGA - FGA))) * AST
FT_Part = (1-(1-(FTM/FTA))^2)*0.4*FTA
Team_Scoring_Poss = Team_FGM + (1 - (1 - (Team_FTM / Team_FTA))^2) * Team_FTA * 0.4
Team_ORB_Weight = ((1 - Team_ORB%) * Team_Play%) / ((1 - Team_ORB%) * Team_Play% + Team_ORB% * (1 - Team_Play%))
Team_ORB% = Team_ORB / (Team_ORB + (Opponent_TRB - Opponent_ORB))
Team_Play% = Team_Scoring_Poss / (Team_FGA + Team_FTA * 0.4 + Team_TOV)
ORB_Part = ORB * Team_ORB_Weight * Team_Play%
Missed FG and Missed FT Possessions are calculated as follows:

FGxPoss = (FGA - FGM) * (1 - 1.07 * Team_ORB%)
FTxPoss = ((1 - (FTM / FTA))^2) * 0.4 * FTA
Total Possessions are then computed like so:

TotPoss = ScPoss + FGxPoss + FTxPoss + TOV
Now, Individual Points Produced must also be calculated:

PProd = (PProd_FG_Part + PProd_AST_Part + FTM) * (1 - (Team_ORB / Team_Scoring_Poss) * Team_ORB_Weight * Team_Play%) + PProd_ORB_Part
where:

PProd_FG_Part = 2 * (FGM + 0.5 * 3PM) * (1 - 0.5 * ((PTS - FTM) / (2 * FGA)) * qAST)
PProd_AST_Part = 2 * ((Team_FGM - FGM + 0.5 * (Team_3PM - 3PM)) / (Team_FGM - FGM)) * 0.5 * (((Team_PTS - Team_FTM) - (PTS - FTM)) / (2 * (Team_FGA - FGA))) * AST
PProd_ORB_Part = ORB * Team_ORB_Weight * Team_Play% * (Team_PTS / (Team_FGM + (1 - (1 - (Team_FTM / Team_FTA))^2) * 0.4 * Team_FTA))
After all of that, we can finally calculate the player's individual Offensive Rating:

ORtg = 100 * (PProd / TotPoss)
As a side note, we can also calculate what Oliver calls Floor Percentage, which answers the question, "What percentage of the time that a player wants to score does he actually score?":

Floor% = ScPoss / TotPoss
The difference between Offensive Rating and Floor Percentage, Oliver notes, is the average number of Points Produced per Scoring Possession. "Though [Shaquille O'Neal] may have a high floor percentage," Oliver writes, "his poor foul shooting means that he has a lot of one-point possessions, bringing his offensive rating down a bit. Good three-point shooters like Reggie Miller, who may not have the highest floor percentage, will have higher offensive ratings."

Defensive Rating
Just as Oliver's Offensive Rating represents points produced by the player per 100 possessions consumed, his Defensive Rating estimates how many points the player allowed per 100 possessions he individually faced while on the court.

The core of the Defensive Rating calculation is the concept of the individual Defensive Stop. Stops take into account the instances of a player ending an opposing possession that are tracked in the boxscore (blocks, steals, and defensive rebounds), in addition to an estimate for the number of forced turnovers and forced misses by the player which aren't captured by steals and blocks.

The formula for Stops is:

Stops = Stops1 + Stops2
where:

Stops1 = STL + BLK * FMwt * (1 - 1.07 * DOR%) + DRB * (1 - FMwt)
FMwt (Forced Miss weight) = (DFG% * (1 - DOR%)) / (DFG% * (1 - DOR%) + (1 - DFG%) * DOR%)
DOR% = Opponent_ORB / (Opponent_ORB + Team_DRB)
DFG% = Opponent_FGM / Opponent_FGA
Stops2 = (((Opponent_FGA - Opponent_FGM - Team_BLK) / Team_MP) * FMwt * (1 - 1.07 * DOR%) + ((Opponent_TOV - Team_STL) / Team_MP)) * MP + (PF / Team_PF) * 0.4 * Opponent_FTA * (1 - (Opponent_FTM / Opponent_FTA))^2
Also necessary is the calculation of Stop%, which is the rate at which a player forces a defensive stop as a percentage of individual possessions faced (essentially the inverse of Floor%, but for defenders):

Stop% = (Stops * Opponent_MP) / (Team_Possessions * MP)
With those numbers in hand, individual Defensive Rating can be computed:

DRtg = Team_Defensive_Rating + 0.2 * (100 * D_Pts_per_ScPoss * (1 - Stop%) - Team_Defensive_Rating)
where:

Team_Defensive_Rating = 100 * (Opponent_PTS / Team_Possessions)
D_Pts_per_ScPoss = Opponent_PTS / (Opponent_FGM + (1 - (1 - (Opponent_FTM / Opponent_FTA))^2) * Opponent_FTA*0.4)
Notes:

In a later chapter of Basketball on Paper, Oliver emphasized that Offensive Ratings shouldn't be viewed in a vacuum. Introducing a concept he called "Skill Curves", he acknowledged that a player's ORtg needed to be judged in conjunction with his Usage Rate, a measure of how big a role the player fills in his team's offense. The bigger the role, the more difficult it is to maintain a high ORtg; the smaller the role, the easier it is to be highly efficient. Because of this, Oliver stressed that a player's ORtg should primarily be compared to those of other players in a similar role.

Out of necessity (owing to a lack of defensive data in the basic boxscore), individual Defensive Ratings are heavily influenced by the team's defensive efficiency. They assume that all teammates are equally good (per minute) at forcing non-steal turnovers and non-block misses, as well as assuming that all teammates face the same number of total possessions per minute.

Perhaps as a byproduct, big men tend to have the best Defensive Ratings (although Oliver notes that history's best defensive teams were generally anchored by dominant defensive big men, suggesting that those types of players are the most important to a team's defensive success). A corollary to this is that excellent perimeter defenders who don't steal the ball a lot — for instance, Joe Dumars or Doug Christie — are underrated defensively by DRtg, and are prone to look only as good as their team's overall defense performs.

This is how VORP, which is a stat that you used, is calculated:

Value over Replacement Player (VORP) converts the BPM rate into an estimate of each player's overall contribution to the team, measured vs. what a theoretical "replacement player" would provide, where the "replacement player" is defined as a player on minimum salary or not a normal member of a team's rotation.

So, to calculate VORP, the formula is simply: [BPM – (-2.0)] * (% of minutes played)*(team games/82). This yields the number of points the player is producing over a replacement player, per 100 TEAM possessions over an entire season.

BPM is calculated off of Box Score stats.

RAPTOR is calculated by combining a variety of data points including box score stats, play-by-play data, player tracking data, and on/off court analysis to determine a player's overall impact on offense and defense, relative to a league-average player.

The 2011 Bulls are a better supporting cast than what Lavine has had, but what about the 2009, 2007, 2014, and 2017?

Rose, Butler, Deng, and Noah are all much better defensive players than Lavine. The biggest weakness these advanced stats that you're so critical of is they do a poor job of measuring defensive impact.

Rose has a game winning block in a playoff game. He's played excellent defense when it mattered the most.

Is JR Smith more talented than Dennis Rodman because he's better at shooting 3s? Joakim Noah won DPOTY, was all-NBA 1st team, 4th in MVP voting, led the Bulls in assists as a center, and played 80 games for us in 2014. In 2013 Rose, Deng, and Hinrich were injured and Noah beat Brook Lopez, Deron Williams, and Joe Johnson with an old Boozer, Nate Robinson, Marco Belinelli, and a young Butler. Noah over Lavine isn't lunacy, just like how Rodman over JR Smith isn't lunacy.

If Lavine is so talented, why didn't he play better in the playoffs? Why can't he make the playoffs more? Why can't he win more playoff games? Why do Vuc and Derozan have more playoff wins without him than with him? Why can't we trade him? Why aren’t his impact stats better? It seems to me that you're the one avoiding questions.

My argument is not that other posters like Rose better, I never said that. You've continuously misrepresented what other people have been saying in this thread. You say people are "avoiding the question" as to what Rose is better at when we've said passing, defense, penetration, impact metrics, making the playoffs, playing well in the playoffs, winning playoff games, ect.

[nitetrain8603]

1. Rose
2. Butler
3. Noah
4. Gasol
5. Gordon
6. LaVine
7. DeRozan
8. Deng
9. Boozer
10. Thibs

[NZB2323]

In the Lavine/Rose debate it is interesting that there are 8 total Rose era Bulls who made the lists, most of them regularly. There are 3 from the Lavine era. Yet some people debating on Rose's behalf keep insinuating Zach Lavine should have somehow carried the Bulls to the playoffs by himself, and acting like Rose did it all on his own. 1 even saying that Rose had it tougher because he didn't have 3 point shooters around him.

How many of those guys were in their prime when Rose was in his prime?

Rose was past his prime when he played with Butler who wasn't in his prime yet.

Noah's prime was 2013-2014, when Rose was injured.

When the Bulls got Pau Gasol Rose was past his prime.

The Bulls won 33 games before getting Rose, and then didn't resign Ben Gordon. He didn't have a stacked roster in 2009 or 2010. And Rose didn't just make the playoffs in 2011. He led the Bulls to the best record in the league and the ECF.

Noah led us to the playoffs while Rose was injured, after Deng was traded, while Butler was a baby, and before we got Gasol. He also led us to a playoff series win while Rose, Hinrich, and Deng were injured and Butler was a baby.

Vuc made the playoffs in 2019 and 2020 without Lavine and without a stacked roster, and has only made the playoffs once with Lavine. Derozan made the playoffs 6 years in a row before joining Lavine and only made it once with him. Both Derozan and Vuc have performed better in the playoffs than Lavine.

[HomoSapien]

1. Thibs
2. Rose
3. Butler
4. Noah
5. DeRozan
6. Gordon
7. Deng
8. LaVine
9. Gasol
10. Hinrich

Rereading the OP's definition, I guess Brand is on this list and probably in that top 5 or 6. If we're factoring in success + longevity then I guess he falls off.

[panthermark]

I think Stat makes an excellent point. All of the rebuttals have been "well, your opinion is wrong".

I think Rose was more forceful and intimidating, but "talent" wise, I don't know. Rose had a crazy speed/strength/athleticism combo that was unmatched, but as a PG (as far as PG skills go), he wasn't amazing. He also had limited 3 point range.

I mean, we watched a team without Rose make it to the play-offs and even win a series.

Rose was a better version of John Wall. Does anyone think John Wall was "talented" or more on the side of "physically gifted"?

Put current Lavine on the 2012-13 roster (when Rose didn't play). Thibs coaching Kirk, Lavine, Deng, Boozer, Noah with Taj, Butler and Nate off the bench? That team wins at least 55 games and goes deep into the offs.