Is being a shameless foul baiter a requirement at this point?

[The4thHorseman]

Luka is the biggest foul baiter, he also complains the most. He complains to the officials when a defender's pinky finger touches his skin.

SGA and Brunson are on their own level when it comes to foul baiting. Luka isn't even close to them

And yes, being a shameless foul baiter is heavily rewarded.

Brunson is barely in the top 10 in FTA with a little over 6 a game. He drives to the basket a lot and gets contact. Saying he's in the top tier of guys who routinely fakes contact is an extreme exaggeration on your part. If it's blatantly true, then certainly someone's put together a video full of evidence that it's factually true he constantly gets calls when no foul was committed.

[slick_watts]

nothing shameful about getting to the line. some guys are better at doing it than others. it's a skill and talent.

[Calvin Klein]

I will never understand why the NBA so desperately wants flopping to be a major part of the game

they care most for big stats, so they need the most points possible. That way they get to post new records and video game numbers every day on social media. And if they don't get it, they just combine numbers from different players

[dhsilv2]

Head snap back, arms flailing, falling over legs swirling like a propeller. Complete with primal scream. Get back up. FTs. Repeat. Don't forget to hook the defender's arm to make like he's hindering you and complain to refs about it.

SGA doesn't really do any of that and people say he is a foul baiter. Maybe hooking the defender's arms.

SGA 100% will flop. But he doesn't flop as much as people wanting to claim either. He mostly does get legit fouled and his game is designed to draw contact. The net result is he gets a LOT of free throws. Most are legit fouls...now we can debate if offensive players should be seeking contact which is the confusing part of this thread.

flopping

vs

foul hunting

They're two completely different things being lumped in together here.

[og15]

It's easy to say "don't reward flopping", but officials being able to accurately determine if an action is a full-on flop or selling the contact or a legitimate movement in real time is another story. If they started emphasizing it that would inevitably lead to inconsistencies (we've seen a bit of that with flopping technicals) which people would rightfully gripe about. You could start reviewing more plays but people would complain about that too.

If I can do it on TV in real time they have no excuse

But you can't. Stop it. You think you can because you have a bias. "OMG, of course that is a flop!"

Anthony Edwards is sitting courtside and admit he got the call wrong and apologize for screaming at the refs.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/_SE9lD-c75o

This is actually pretty funny, and of course we are all not as good refs as we think we are, and there's angles and vision and all that related to making calls. I do love making calls from my tv view and slow motion and calling out the refs for not getting it though, dummies

[G R E Y]

SGA doesn't really do any of that and people say he is a foul baiter. Maybe hooking the defender's arms.

SGA 100% will flop. But he doesn't flop as much as people wanting to claim either. He mostly does get legit fouled and his game is designed to draw contact. The net result is he gets a LOT of free throws. Most are legit fouls...now we can debate if offensive players should be seeking contact which is the confusing part of this thread.

flopping

vs

foul hunting

They're two completely different things being lumped in together here.

If most were legit fouls, would all that baiting be necessary? He certainly resorts to it when a defender stays with him and needs the extra cheat to get a call. Flopping and foul hunting are not completely different. They're two types of ref manipulation, you can maybe argue about degree, not kind. He's skilled enough to get by most defenders. League really needs to clamp down on the **** head snap back and O players jumping into defenders and arm hooks on drives.

[dhsilv2]

SGA 100% will flop. But he doesn't flop as much as people wanting to claim either. He mostly does get legit fouled and his game is designed to draw contact. The net result is he gets a LOT of free throws. Most are legit fouls...now we can debate if offensive players should be seeking contact which is the confusing part of this thread.

flopping

vs

foul hunting

They're two completely different things being lumped in together here.

If most were legit fouls, would all that baiting be necessary? He certainly resorts to it when a defender stays with him and needs the extra cheat to get a call. Flopping and foul hunting are not completely different. They're two types of ref manipulation, you can maybe argue about degree, not kind. He's skilled enough to get by most defenders. League really needs to clamp down on the **** head snap back and O players jumping into defenders and arm hooks on drives.

Again, I'm not sure what people mean by "baiting". The head snap to me is a flop and I'd consider that baiting. I don't think he does that a lot. He does do it, i want to be clear I'm not saying it's not a part of his game. The hooking however is where I'm not so sure that's "baiting". That's an offensive player forcing a call when a defender goes off balance. Now, I'm open to calling that an offensive foul personally. But that's an offensive player trying to create fouls which to me isn't the same thing.

Now if you think baiting is trying to get a defender into fouling you. Then ok..the head kick isn't baiting and the hooking is. And then, I'll grant you that SGA foul baits in the sense he's looking to get fouled, but it's legal. Perhaps as others have said, it's not ethical or within the nature of the game.

[dhsilv2]

If I can do it on TV in real time they have no excuse

But you can't. Stop it. You think you can because you have a bias. "OMG, of course that is a flop!"

Anthony Edwards is sitting courtside and admit he got the call wrong and apologize for screaming at the refs.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/_SE9lD-c75o

This is actually pretty funny, and of course we are all not as good refs as we think we are, and there's angles and vision and all that related to making calls. I do love making calls from my tv view and slow motion and calling out the refs for not getting it though, dummies

I always do wonder what angles they think the refs have. With 10 guys + other refs out there, you can't expect the guys to always get a clean look at the foul. Meanwhile we have amazing angles from the tv lol.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Yes, "Ethical hoops" loses you points, that's how the game is officiated.

I like rooting for ethical hoopers. But it's going to end up in a season-ending loss almost every time.

That's just the way the NBA is...

Anthony Edwards is popular with the masses in part because he seems pretty authentic. He whines about fouls but doesn't grift for them.

He's improved his game in some new way every season. This year, he's ducking in for more post-ups. MEH. I've been saying for three years that he's leaving at least 2 - 4 points on the court by not learning how to grift. I think the Timberwolves should hire yet another coach (why not have 35 coaches at this point!) just to teach him how to grift? That's 2 - 4 points every game and takes a 50-win team closer to 60 wins. There's not a more effective way to make up that many points...

[cupcakesnake]

Head snap back, arms flailing, falling over legs swirling like a propeller. Complete with primal scream. Get back up. FTs. Repeat. Don't forget to hook the defender's arm to make like he's hindering you and complain to refs about it.

These are the foul baiting moves, yes, but they don't get you far when you aren't creating advantages against your defender or putting the defender in difficult situations. No one gets a foul call by standing there and snapping their head back. If you can get your defender off-balance, force them into recovery where they're committing a borderline blocking foul, and then snap your head back, now you're starting to get calls.

People can't just decide to become "foul merchants". Every player that gets a ton of calls has a reason they can put some icing on their cake. Shai is probably the shiftiest, lowest to the ground player of all-time, and put his defender in all kinds of awkward positions while they live in constant fear of his near automatic pull up in the midrange. Prime Harden was able to get downhill at will, and was so strong with the ball doing it. Healthy Embiid's defenders can't guard his pull up and his first step at the same time (though Embiid is the guy I found the most infuriating with how many possessions he used to fall and embellish contact.)

Giddey doesn't get by guys with a first step, and has no real athletic advantages to exploit. Jokic is kind of similar. If you can't generate separation and cause the defense to overcompensate, it's hard to generate a crazy amount of fouls.

But standing there and snapping a head back isn't the reference point, right? Like that's never the context. And it isn't even putting a defender off balance. Plenty of clips from a subsequent video I posted show SGA bested by a defender in terms of keeping up with SGA with quick feet, body upright, not reaching in not allowing a driving lane, or staying at his hip, and then SGA resorts to **** egregious foul baiting. He does put defenders out of position, that's true, but foul baiting isn't some free pass reward for doing it. Whether he bests a defender or not, foul baiting is gross. I wish it weren't rewarded by league officials.

I think SGA is indeed a foul baiter, but the "free throw merchant" discourse has blown things out of proportion. Every game SGA might have 1 or 2 plays that look like blatant foul baiting, but fans now react to every single foul SGA draws like it's another war crime. He's a really hard player to guard, and that's the main reason he draws fouls. His ability to change directions horizontally is an all-time rare ability. Combined with the pull up, he's an impossible cover and defending him is going to put you in all kinds of awkward positions. The foul baiting is the icing, not the cake, and I agree the icing is unsavory.

I'm not saying SGA doesn't foul bait, but I do think the focus on it has gotten way out of hand and it's dominating the discussion on one of the best scoring guards we've ever seen. People act like he's some all-time outlier free throw guy, when in reality he's just solid in an all-time context (34th all-time with similar free throw rates to Anthony Davis, World B. Free, Dwyane Wade, and Dominique Wilkins).

[cupcakesnake]

Yes, "Ethical hoops" loses you points, that's how the game is officiated.

I like rooting for ethical hoopers. But it's going to end up in a season-ending loss almost every time.

That's just the way the NBA is...

Anthony Edwards is popular with the masses in part because he seems pretty authentic. He whines about fouls but doesn't grift for them.

He's improved his game in some new way every season. This year, he's ducking in for more post-ups. MEH. I've been saying for three years that he's leaving at least 2 - 4 points on the court by not learning how to grift. I think the Timberwolves should hire yet another coach (why not have 35 coaches at this point!) just to teach him how to grift? That's 2 - 4 points every game and takes a 50-win team closer to 60 wins. There's not a more effective way to make up that many points...

I don't think the path to Ant getting more free throw is more grifting, it's less sidestepping on finishes and more midrange bully ball. His free throw merchant mentor should be Dwyane Wade, not SGA.

Ant could be generating more free throw on his drives, but the rest of his game isn't the kind of stuff that's high volume foul stuff. The man shoots a mega ton of threes, and likes to attack opens spaces for pull ups. He's not pounding the ball into his man like Luka, and he's not forcing contact off the dribble like SGA.

[GeorgeSears]

Harden was doing this like 8 years ago.

[NyKnicks1714]

Harden was doing this like 8 years ago.

Part of that though is the skill of being able to put defenders in a position where they're forced to foul him. It's not just a matter of flopping for calls. That's a part of it, but there's legitimate skill involved too.

[Goon]

doncic is really really bad too

While he can be really bad, he also has that "strength" whistle though, like Jokic, LeBron and similar strong players, that often get clobbered on drives with no foul called. Anytime I see Luka I see both worlds, some weak fouls called, and a lot of no-calls when he got absolutely smacked and would throw SGA to the 5th row.

I love Luka's game, but he is definitely one of the most egregious foul baiter out there. The constant lean forward shots, hanging shots screaming for a foul...

I agree, thats why I wrote I see both worlds. The jumping into defenders while airborn really irks me. Won't even start about the screams. But its what the NBA has produces with its rules or how they enforce it. I don't see anything close in FIBA basketball because they don't reward it half as much.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Yes, "Ethical hoops" loses you points, that's how the game is officiated.

I like rooting for ethical hoopers. But it's going to end up in a season-ending loss almost every time.

That's just the way the NBA is...

Anthony Edwards is popular with the masses in part because he seems pretty authentic. He whines about fouls but doesn't grift for them.

He's improved his game in some new way every season. This year, he's ducking in for more post-ups. MEH. I've been saying for three years that he's leaving at least 2 - 4 points on the court by not learning how to grift. I think the Timberwolves should hire yet another coach (why not have 35 coaches at this point!) just to teach him how to grift? That's 2 - 4 points every game and takes a 50-win team closer to 60 wins. There's not a more effective way to make up that many points...

I don't think the path to Ant getting more free throw is more grifting, it's less sidestepping on finishes and more midrange bully ball. His free throw merchant mentor should be Dwyane Wade, not SGA.

Ant could be generating more free throw on his drives, but the rest of his game isn't the kind of stuff that's high volume foul stuff. The man shoots a mega ton of threes, and likes to attack opens spaces for pull ups. He's not pounding the ball into his man like Luka, and he's not forcing contact off the dribble like SGA.

To be fair, I don't know if D. Wade makes the impact in 2025 that he did in 2006. The game is officiated differently... at the time Wade's game fit the NBA's point of emphasis.

20 years later, there's a different way to get the line a couple more times per game. And that's being smart about initiating contact. Edwards flailing a couple of times per game when he feels contact would get him those 2 - 4 extra points. Guaranteed.

There are other ways as you cite. Why not do both?

[Statlanta]

No you can make up the point difference from selling your soul, by being a better passer, a better shooter, a better defender or a better rebounder.