Decision making during our "rebuild" has been shockingly terrible. Review of timeline + path forward

[DelAbbot]

TWO called out these bad FO decisions when they happened and we got so much flak.

I don't have Bobby's perfect hair but I would have built a much better team over the last 4 years than him. Masai got paid top 5 executive and did nothing to correct Bobby's bad moves

[PushDaRock]

Barnes haters & Fred lovers love to sit and can't wait to pounce when there is an opportunity.

I can appreciate skepticism and hesitation. I am myself far from Barnes' biggest fan in terms of ROI on that draft pick. Hindsight's 20/20 and all that, and we're finding ways to make him work for us. I think the biggest complaint is simply that he isn't a superstar. But we've been asking him to be something he's not the entire time he's been on the team, diametrically opposite what his scouting reports all said, and given that, he's actually done pretty well.

And yeah, he needs some structure and a certain role in which to thrive, like basically all non-superstars. And people struggle to appreciate players who aren't dominant scoring forces, so it's hard for a lot of people to get that wrapped around their minds, that he's still a plus-EV type of guy.

It's not Barnes' fault we have no frontcourt depth, or that RJ's out, or that BI has been dropping off sharply while we over-isolate him, or that we have no bench production of merit (especially with how Darko is approaching CMB), etc, etc.

We "should" all know, this isn't the roster going forward. No one is untouchable. We ARE going to be trying a consolidation trade.

If only for tax purposes, for sure. And hopefully to improve the team.

It's 100% painful at times to wait and watch flaws so glaring. But the "hope" was a healthy team along with some development from the youth, could increase not only the win total, but players values for future trades. And WHEN HEALTHY(the team), Barnes was looking like an All Star as was BI. RJ was RJ. Shead was looking fantastic, etc...

Yeah, when the team was actually on the floor, it was looking just fine. Not dominant, but not bad for the first year after a tanking season. Not bad at all.

We've been struggling, but we have critical pieces missing, so evaluation of the team while we're riddled with injuries and the like must always have some degree of patience as a filter. And, of course, understanding of how the team works. We KNOW Barnes isn't suddenly going to become an efficient 25 ppg guy, so pissing and moaning that he isn't every time we find ourselves in a struggling situation is just wasted energy, for sure.

Yup.

I just wish people would be honest. Yes Barnes has had bad games since RJ and Yak have been out/hurt. But he has also had very good games.

Hell, since RJ has been out(15 games) Barnes has averaged:

19.0, 8.2, 5.2, 1.0, 1.3, 57.7%TS-last 15 games
19.3, 8.0. 5.0, 1.6, 1.3, 58.2%TS-season

Almost exact same stats....especially with his 3pt shooting has been at 29.6% in those 15 games. He hasn't had that to boost his numbers like earlier in the season.

So same stats AND he is being asked to do more defensively with Yak out/hurt.

If you're missing 19 points per game from the lineup, who is supposed to replace the scoring?

I would argue it should be your highest paid players and your top scoring options need to scale up their production. Role players stepping up is secondary to that. Ingram's done a bit more scoring without RJ, while Scottie and IQ haven't stepped up their production at all.

[mdenny]

Barnes haters & Fred lovers love to sit and can't wait to pounce when there is an opportunity.

I can appreciate skepticism and hesitation. I am myself far from Barnes' biggest fan in terms of ROI on that draft pick. Hindsight's 20/20 and all that, and we're finding ways to make him work for us. I think the biggest complaint is simply that he isn't a superstar. But we've been asking him to be something he's not the entire time he's been on the team, diametrically opposite what his scouting reports all said, and given that, he's actually done pretty well.

And yeah, he needs some structure and a certain role in which to thrive, like basically all non-superstars. And people struggle to appreciate players who aren't dominant scoring forces, so it's hard for a lot of people to get that wrapped around their minds, that he's still a plus-EV type of guy.

It's not Barnes' fault we have no frontcourt depth, or that RJ's out, or that BI has been dropping off sharply while we over-isolate him, or that we have no bench production of merit (especially with how Darko is approaching CMB), etc, etc.

We "should" all know, this isn't the roster going forward. No one is untouchable. We ARE going to be trying a consolidation trade.

If only for tax purposes, for sure. And hopefully to improve the team.

It's 100% painful at times to wait and watch flaws so glaring. But the "hope" was a healthy team along with some development from the youth, could increase not only the win total, but players values for future trades. And WHEN HEALTHY(the team), Barnes was looking like an All Star as was BI. RJ was RJ. Shead was looking fantastic, etc...

Yeah, when the team was actually on the floor, it was looking just fine. Not dominant, but not bad for the first year after a tanking season. Not bad at all.

We've been struggling, but we have critical pieces missing, so evaluation of the team while we're riddled with injuries and the like must always have some degree of patience as a filter. And, of course, understanding of how the team works. We KNOW Barnes isn't suddenly going to become an efficient 25 ppg guy, so pissing and moaning that he isn't every time we find ourselves in a struggling situation is just wasted energy, for sure.

This is just more incessant catering to Barnes. The reason we got IQ is because we thought Barnes would be the primary playmaker on offense. So that our point guard would be moreso a shooting threat than he would be an assist guy.

But now IQ is being criticized for not being a good playmaker because we found out last season that Barnes was not gonna thrive as a primary playmaker.

We built this team based on a whole bunch of assumptions about Barnes. And then as barnes continues to fall short in all those expectations....the rest of the team gets criticized and Barnes floats on by.

Barnes can't be expected to be the primary initiator.....even though we designed the team based on that and everyone was screaming "give him the keys".

Barnes can't be expected to apply rim pressure because that's "not his game".

Barnes can't be expected to cover Payton Prichard AND perform well on the offensive end lol. (That one was rich)

We're running out of things to "expect" from Barnes. But noone is gonna admit that they totally over-hyped this guy. They're just gonna set the bar lower and lower. Meanwhile....the team was built based on all the hype which turned out to be wrong.

I knew that IQ was gonna get thrown under the bus this year because Barnes did not become the player everyone was claiming he would once he was "finally" given the chance. The pattern is so predictable now. IQ has had a really tough season so far. But we should remember that he is coming up short in the EXACT facets of the game that everyone was saying Scotty would do. We didn't get him to be a traditional point guard because we had Barnes who was gonna be a top 10 player who runs the offense. And now we're hating on IQ because he isnt a traditional PG instead of admitting that it was BARNES who came up short.

[Clutch0z24]

Bobby/Masai have made so many boneheaded moves post championship its almost like they lost passion after winning the title and losing Kawhi....I get it you just won a title and lost the player that got you there which would be demoralizing...

But so many mistakes that both deserve to be fired ....You can't fire Masai and hold onto Bobby thinking things will change ....Bobby might be more of the problem because maybe Masai let him make more decisions post title as well...

I can appreciate the team thinking they were still close to contending given this timeline:

2019: Championship
2020: 53 wins (lost in 2nd round, 7 games)
2021: Tampa Tank
2022: 48 wins (lost 1st round, 6 games; Barnes wins ROY)

So what happened in 2023?

It all makes sense if you accept what FVV said about the team's financial situation and pending sale. Rogers announced that they were going to buy BCE's stake in the team just before the 2024 season. I imagine that they would have tried to tighten up spending a least a year prior and the sale wasn't finalized until the end of the 2025 season.

I think the OG trade was pretty good but the Pascal trade returns were disappointing. It makes sense if the front office was financially restrained though. They probably weren't going to be allowed to extend both but more importantly they probably weren't allowed to take on a significant contract commitment in a trade for Pascal.

The draft is a crap shoot so "we could have drafted this guy" arguments don't mean much.

As far as Ingram, team success is largely based on the talent level at the top of your roster. If the team wanted to get competitive they needed more talent to go with Scottie and Ingram was an immediate solution vs. hoping to get lucky in the draft, possibly waiting 2 years for development that never happens. I'm quite happy with the Ingram acquisition and the team was looking very promising before RJ went down. I think an Ingram-Barnes team can follow the trajectory of the Lowry-DeRozan teams, ultimately with an ECF competitive ceiling without an MVP on the roster.

The information FVV provided really sheds some light on how/why some decisions would have been made. I'm not as pessimistic as some because we could just as easily not have guys like Ingram and Barnes, which for sure would leave us toiling in the lottery for years hoping to hit on an All-Star+ talent. Not nearly as easy or likely as people seem to think.

The best teams in the NBA all have one thing in common....They are good at playing the drafting game....Thats where the actual good GMs should earn their big $$$ from because majority of the good teams you see today were teams that made the right draft picks or actually tried to tank the right way to get the best draft picks possible

Rockets=Years of playing the draft game
T-Wolves=Got some draft picks right and won when they got Edwards
OKC=Got Shai in a trade but have made the right draft picks since to surround him with the best talent
Spurs=Tanked well for a few years and made the right draft picks since
Pistons=Got Cade via the draft and have made some good picks since then leading to actually having a good enough team (At least they are young and good)

Also the good franchises use the draft capital they aquire to make moves with draft picks to make trades because front offices also tend to over value draft picks so you are also able to pick and choose when a good trade comes along (Like the 2026 Pelicans FRP offer that came to us last season that Bobby Foolishly passed on)

Raptors before going into the dumps were so good because we were up there with the elite of the elites when it came to the drafting game...Powell/FVV/OG/Siakam Now we are in the dumps because we have been slacking in the drafts and made multiple errors...

Yeah it can be a crap shoot but for an actual good scouting department and an elite GM they know what to look for when drafting....Its a big part of the NBA and always has been....The right draft pick in the right draft has changed franchises fortunes since the dawn of time...

[mdenny]

Bobby/Masai have made so many boneheaded moves post championship its almost like they lost passion after winning the title and losing Kawhi....I get it you just won a title and lost the player that got you there which would be demoralizing...

But so many mistakes that both deserve to be fired ....You can't fire Masai and hold onto Bobby thinking things will change ....Bobby might be more of the problem because maybe Masai let him make more decisions post title as well...

I can appreciate the team thinking they were still close to contending given this timeline:

2019: Championship
2020: 53 wins (lost in 2nd round, 7 games)
2021: Tampa Tank
2022: 48 wins (lost 1st round, 6 games; Barnes wins ROY)

So what happened in 2023?

It all makes sense if you accept what FVV said about the team's financial situation and pending sale. Rogers announced that they were going to buy BCE's stake in the team just before the 2024 season. I imagine that they would have tried to tighten up spending a least a year prior and the sale wasn't finalized until the end of the 2025 season.

I think the OG trade was pretty good but the Pascal trade returns were disappointing. It makes sense if the front office was financially restrained though. They probably weren't going to be allowed to extend both but more importantly they probably weren't allowed to take on a significant contract commitment in a trade for Pascal.

The draft is a crap shoot so "we could have drafted this guy" arguments don't mean much.

As far as Ingram, team success is largely based on the talent level at the top of your roster. If the team wanted to get competitive they needed more talent to go with Scottie and Ingram was an immediate solution vs. hoping to get lucky in the draft, possibly waiting 2 years for development that never happens. I'm quite happy with the Ingram acquisition and the team was looking very promising before RJ went down. I think an Ingram-Barnes team can follow the trajectory of the Lowry-DeRozan teams, ultimately with an ECF competitive ceiling without an MVP on the roster.

The information FVV provided really sheds some light on how/why some decisions would have been made. I'm not as pessimistic as some because we could just as easily not have guys like Ingram and Barnes, which for sure would leave us toiling in the lottery for years hoping to hit on an All-Star+ talent. Not nearly as easy or likely as people seem to think.

The best teams in the NBA all have one thing in common....They are good at playing the drafting game....Thats where the actual good GMs should earn their big $$$ from because majority of the good teams you see today were teams that made the right draft picks or actually tried to tank the right way to get the best draft picks possible

Rockets=Years of playing the draft game
T-Wolves=Got some draft picks right and won when they got Edwards
OKC=Got Shai in a trade but have made the right draft picks since to surround him with the best talent
Spurs=Tanked well for a few years and made the right draft picks since
Pistons=Got Cade via the draft and have made some good picks since then leading to actually having a good enough team (At least they are young and good)

Also the good franchises use the draft capital they aquire to make moves with draft picks to make trades because front offices also tend to over value draft picks so you are also able to pick and choose when a good trade comes along (Like the 2026 Pelicans FRP offer that came to us last season that Bobby Foolishly passed on)

Raptors before going into the dumps were so good because we were up there with the elite of the elites when it came to the drafting game...Powell/FVV/OG/Siakam Now we are in the dumps because we have been slacking in the drafts and made multiple errors...

Yeah it can be a crap shoot but for an actual good scouting department and an elite GM they know what to look for when drafting....Its a big part of the NBA and always has been....The right draft pick in the right draft has changed franchises fortunes since the dawn of time...

I agree with you. The number one reason we won the chip was our performance in the draft. During those years leading up to 2019. That's what put that team over the top. But it's just really easy to criticize drafting performance in hindsight. Even our best drafting years had an element of luck to it.

Blackjack might be a good analogy because yes, skill is involved.....but for any given hand, luck is the biggest factor. The best blackjack player in the world can lose a hand to a 12 year old. That's not true for other games like Chess. So there's only so much time you can spend judging it.

Devlin recently made reference to the Milwaukee Bucks history of inept drafting and i went to check it out. Giannis is the LAST prospect that they resigned/extended past his rookie contract. Which is crazy lol. Now THAT team is really bad at drafting. Imagine drafting 10 Gradey Dicks over the course of a decade.

There is NO team that doesn't draft a Gradey Dick here and there. It has to be part of the valuation of picks. And it's the exact reason why ppl tend to overvalue FRPs. They inherently come with ALOT of risk.

[Clutch0z24]

I can appreciate the team thinking they were still close to contending given this timeline:

2019: Championship
2020: 53 wins (lost in 2nd round, 7 games)
2021: Tampa Tank
2022: 48 wins (lost 1st round, 6 games; Barnes wins ROY)

So what happened in 2023?

It all makes sense if you accept what FVV said about the team's financial situation and pending sale. Rogers announced that they were going to buy BCE's stake in the team just before the 2024 season. I imagine that they would have tried to tighten up spending a least a year prior and the sale wasn't finalized until the end of the 2025 season.

I think the OG trade was pretty good but the Pascal trade returns were disappointing. It makes sense if the front office was financially restrained though. They probably weren't going to be allowed to extend both but more importantly they probably weren't allowed to take on a significant contract commitment in a trade for Pascal.

The draft is a crap shoot so "we could have drafted this guy" arguments don't mean much.

As far as Ingram, team success is largely based on the talent level at the top of your roster. If the team wanted to get competitive they needed more talent to go with Scottie and Ingram was an immediate solution vs. hoping to get lucky in the draft, possibly waiting 2 years for development that never happens. I'm quite happy with the Ingram acquisition and the team was looking very promising before RJ went down. I think an Ingram-Barnes team can follow the trajectory of the Lowry-DeRozan teams, ultimately with an ECF competitive ceiling without an MVP on the roster.

The information FVV provided really sheds some light on how/why some decisions would have been made. I'm not as pessimistic as some because we could just as easily not have guys like Ingram and Barnes, which for sure would leave us toiling in the lottery for years hoping to hit on an All-Star+ talent. Not nearly as easy or likely as people seem to think.

The best teams in the NBA all have one thing in common....They are good at playing the drafting game....Thats where the actual good GMs should earn their big $$$ from because majority of the good teams you see today were teams that made the right draft picks or actually tried to tank the right way to get the best draft picks possible

Rockets=Years of playing the draft game
T-Wolves=Got some draft picks right and won when they got Edwards
OKC=Got Shai in a trade but have made the right draft picks since to surround him with the best talent
Spurs=Tanked well for a few years and made the right draft picks since
Pistons=Got Cade via the draft and have made some good picks since then leading to actually having a good enough team (At least they are young and good)

Also the good franchises use the draft capital they aquire to make moves with draft picks to make trades because front offices also tend to over value draft picks so you are also able to pick and choose when a good trade comes along (Like the 2026 Pelicans FRP offer that came to us last season that Bobby Foolishly passed on)

Raptors before going into the dumps were so good because we were up there with the elite of the elites when it came to the drafting game...Powell/FVV/OG/Siakam Now we are in the dumps because we have been slacking in the drafts and made multiple errors...

Yeah it can be a crap shoot but for an actual good scouting department and an elite GM they know what to look for when drafting....Its a big part of the NBA and always has been....The right draft pick in the right draft has changed franchises fortunes since the dawn of time...

I agree with you. The number one reason we won the chip was our performance in the draft. During those years leading up to 2019. That's what put that team over the top. But it's just really easy to criticize drafting performance in hindsight. Even our best drafting years had an element of luck to it.

Blackjack might be a good analogy because yes, skill is involved.....but for any given hand, luck is the biggest factor. The best blackjack player in the world can lose a hand to a 12 year old. That's not true for other games like Chess. So there's only so much time you can spend judging it.

Devlin recently made reference to the Milwaukee Bucks history of inept drafting and i went to check it out. Giannis is the LAST prospect that they resigned/extended past his rookie contract. Which is crazy lol. Now THAT team is really bad at drafting. Imagine drafting 10 Gradey Dicks over the course of a decade.

There is NO team that doesn't draft a Gradey Dick here and there. It has to be part of the valuation of picks. And it's the exact reason why ppl tend to overvalue FRPs. They inherently come with ALOT of risk.

Yeah how i look at it is.....You play the drafting game till you eventually win....Because actually winning can have such a big impact on your fortunes that its worth the risk.....If anything you are at least accumulating assets along the way that could be used in the right trades as well....Also what many of the great front offices have in common they trade a player that has value for future draft picks....So they control other teams picks as well....Tends to be a formula to use as well...

Just having a stockpile of good young assets that have "Potential" is good for your franchise....Thats how Lakers traded for AD when they got LeBron and one of the reasons the Spurs are one of the favorites to get Giannis if he asks out....

Just having high draft picks has value in itself....Thats why i think playing the draft for a little bit has very little risk vs the potential rewards it can garner you if you play it the right way....And yeah all draft classes are not equal....Some have very minimal talents some have franchise altering players....Thats why its also good to pick and choose which draft you play in...

[Grew]

Should have traded Fred, instead they traded for Jak. Here we are.

[Tha Cynic]

The biggest issue has been our drafting and young players not developing (along with ignoring a big man and point guard) and the complaint is that we didn’t tank soon enough?

This team’s strategy with who they draft and how they scout and how they develop has been very bad. We should have at least a couple of very good rotation players by now and that hasn’t happened. You can’t tank every year and hope you end up with a top 3 pick.

The second issue is not addressing needs - a big man an PG.

Fix these and this team is fine. The issue isn’t not tanking but their blatant disregard for how to build a balanced roster and how important a Centre and PG are. It be down help when you also hire a development coach and you have nothing to show any positive development over 2 1/2 seasons

We are lacking so much size, simply adding a 3rd stringer like Koloko will turn our negative lineups into positive. We’re basically giving away games because of it

[C_Money]

Bobby just signed an extension. Does anybody know how long it was?

[ConSarnit]

Here’s my theory: MLSE won’t let us tank.

-Masai publicly saying “play-in for what?” yet still made the Poeltl trade

-the closest real tank year was in Tampa where our record had little impact on attendance

-have only tanked AFTER the season had already gone sideways

-other years where we have been terrible from the get go were due to our vast history of FO incompetence. These were not concerted tank years, we just sucked because the FO sucked

MLSE is a corporation that only cares about money. The Raptors don’t have the same luxury as the Leafs where if they tank they can still be assured the fandom will show up.

I’d say it’s highly unlikely MLSE will ever let us carry out a multi-year tank. If we ever find ourselves drafting in the top 5 multiple years in a row it’s likely because our management is incompetent and not out of a designed tank/rebuild.

[StopitLeo]

I agree with you. The number one reason we won the chip was our performance in the draft. During those years leading up to 2019. That's what put that team over the top. But it's just really easy to criticize drafting performance in hindsight. Even our best drafting years had an element of luck to it.

Blackjack might be a good analogy because yes, skill is involved.....but for any given hand, luck is the biggest factor. The best blackjack player in the world can lose a hand to a 12 year old. That's not true for other games like Chess. So there's only so much time you can spend judging it.

Devlin recently made reference to the Milwaukee Bucks history of inept drafting and i went to check it out. Giannis is the LAST prospect that they resigned/extended past his rookie contract. Which is crazy lol. Now THAT team is really bad at drafting. Imagine drafting 10 Gradey Dicks over the course of a decade.

There is NO team that doesn't draft a Gradey Dick here and there. It has to be part of the valuation of picks. And it's the exact reason why ppl tend to overvalue FRPs. They inherently come with ALOT of risk.

Leading up to 2019 the team had a ridiculous run of success in the draft, with players greatly out performing what you would have expected based on where they were (or were not) drafted. Delon, Jak, Pascal, OG, Fred, Norm (I know he was technically drafted by the Bucks)...They drafted 5 starting quality players and a solid bench guy. This was not normal. Nobody imagined Pascal or Fred would become the players they did.

The best/worst example of how "the draft game" is hardly a recipe for success is the Sixers. They tanked into two #1 and two #3 picks over 4 years, with guys who were All-NBA/All-Defense and even MVP. They made the playoffs for 7 years in a row but never made it out of the 2nd round.

People way overvalue first round picks. Anthony Edwards could just have easily been James Wiseman, who a good drafting team selected.

[sidsid]

I'll give this to the team compete guys. I think they wanted a coherent vision (which the original "vision 6'9" was at least that); a well built team. It's why most fans were resigned to a Wemby tank as the deadline approached.

That the FO didn't want to pay Siakam what he wanted makes clear that they no longer thought about that, and were in "let's make the playoffs" desperation mode of the retooling cycle.

There's no coherent vision that includes trading for Jak when you have Siakam or Barnes on the team. The Bucks moved heaven and earth to replace their aging spacing C with another one, because it's a necessity in the modern NBA. I know Turner probably was likely going for more, but you already gave up a limited protection pick in a bad draft, whats lowering it more for a player that'll actually fit in the playoffs really changing?

It's because making the playoffs is all that really mattered at the time. The OG trade with RJ not fitting in the playoffs is also more of that panicked spackling type of trade. Making the playoffs will more than likely happen this year so hurray I guess. Mission accomplished.

[ConSarnit]

The best teams in the NBA all have one thing in common....They are good at playing the drafting game....Thats where the actual good GMs should earn their big $$$ from because majority of the good teams you see today were teams that made the right draft picks or actually tried to tank the right way to get the best draft picks possible

Rockets=Years of playing the draft game
T-Wolves=Got some draft picks right and won when they got Edwards
OKC=Got Shai in a trade but have made the right draft picks since to surround him with the best talent
Spurs=Tanked well for a few years and made the right draft picks since
Pistons=Got Cade via the draft and have made some good picks since then leading to actually having a good enough team (At least they are young and good)

Also the good franchises use the draft capital they aquire to make moves with draft picks to make trades because front offices also tend to over value draft picks so you are also able to pick and choose when a good trade comes along (Like the 2026 Pelicans FRP offer that came to us last season that Bobby Foolishly passed on)

Raptors before going into the dumps were so good because we were up there with the elite of the elites when it came to the drafting game...Powell/FVV/OG/Siakam Now we are in the dumps because we have been slacking in the drafts and made multiple errors...

Yeah it can be a crap shoot but for an actual good scouting department and an elite GM they know what to look for when drafting....Its a big part of the NBA and always has been....The right draft pick in the right draft has changed franchises fortunes since the dawn of time...

I agree with you. The number one reason we won the chip was our performance in the draft. During those years leading up to 2019. That's what put that team over the top. But it's just really easy to criticize drafting performance in hindsight. Even our best drafting years had an element of luck to it.

Blackjack might be a good analogy because yes, skill is involved.....but for any given hand, luck is the biggest factor. The best blackjack player in the world can lose a hand to a 12 year old. That's not true for other games like Chess. So there's only so much time you can spend judging it.

Devlin recently made reference to the Milwaukee Bucks history of inept drafting and i went to check it out. Giannis is the LAST prospect that they resigned/extended past his rookie contract. Which is crazy lol. Now THAT team is really bad at drafting. Imagine drafting 10 Gradey Dicks over the course of a decade.

There is NO team that doesn't draft a Gradey Dick here and there. It has to be part of the valuation of picks. And it's the exact reason why ppl tend to overvalue FRPs. They inherently come with ALOT of risk.

Yeah how i look at it is.....You play the drafting game till you eventually win....Because actually winning can have such a big impact on your fortunes that its worth the risk.....If anything you are at least accumulating assets along the way that could be used in the right trades as well....Also what many of the great front offices have in common they trade a player that has value for future draft picks....So they control other teams picks as well....Tends to be a formula to use as well...

Just having a stockpile of good young assets that have "Potential" is good for your franchise....Thats how Lakers traded for AD when they got LeBron and one of the reasons the Spurs are one of the favorites to get Giannis if he asks out....

Just having high draft picks has value in itself....Thats why i think playing the draft for a little bit has very little risk vs the potential rewards it can garner you if you play it the right way....And yeah all draft classes are not equal....Some have very minimal talents some have franchise altering players....Thats why its also good to pick and choose which draft you play in...

The blueprint is there. You give yourself multiple bites at the apple by drafting high with your own picks and taking swings with picks acquire from trading away your previous core (what we should have done with Siakam/OG/FVV).

HOU missed on Green with the 2nd overall pick. Used the surplus 1sts to trade for Sengun in the same draft.

DET drafted Ivey with their own pick. Used their surplus picks to trade for Duren.

OKC drafted Chet (their own pick) and JDub (Clippers pick) in ‘22.

No one hits on every pick. But when you stockpile surplus picks you improve your odds of hitting. Where are HOU and DET if they don’t have those extras picks?

It’s what makes the last few years so frustrating. Missing the playoffs 3 straight years and drafting 13th, 19th and 9th. Terrible. No high draft picks. No surplus picks to take chances. Just bad management.

[mdenny]

I agree with you. The number one reason we won the chip was our performance in the draft. During those years leading up to 2019. That's what put that team over the top. But it's just really easy to criticize drafting performance in hindsight. Even our best drafting years had an element of luck to it.

Blackjack might be a good analogy because yes, skill is involved.....but for any given hand, luck is the biggest factor. The best blackjack player in the world can lose a hand to a 12 year old. That's not true for other games like Chess. So there's only so much time you can spend judging it.

Devlin recently made reference to the Milwaukee Bucks history of inept drafting and i went to check it out. Giannis is the LAST prospect that they resigned/extended past his rookie contract. Which is crazy lol. Now THAT team is really bad at drafting. Imagine drafting 10 Gradey Dicks over the course of a decade.

There is NO team that doesn't draft a Gradey Dick here and there. It has to be part of the valuation of picks. And it's the exact reason why ppl tend to overvalue FRPs. They inherently come with ALOT of risk.

Leading up to 2019 the team had a ridiculous run of success in the draft, with players greatly out performing what you would have expected based on where they were (or were not) drafted. Delon, Jak, Pascal, OG, Fred, Norm (I know he was technically drafted by the Bucks)...They drafted 5 starting quality players and a solid bench guy. This was not normal. Nobody imagined Pascal or Fred would become the players they did.

The best/worst example of how "the draft game" is hardly a recipe for success is the Sixers. They tanked into two #1 and two #3 picks over 4 years, with guys who were All-NBA/All-Defense and even MVP. They made the playoffs for 7 years in a row but never made it out of the 2nd round.

People way overvalue first round picks. Anthony Edwards could just have easily been James Wiseman, who a good drafting team selected.

Agreed on all counts. We had a 3 or 4 year run where we were one of the best drafting FOs in the modern era and it may have spoiled the fanbase a bit. Created a misperception of how easy it is. Fred, norm, og, siakam - all of whom FAR exceeded expected outcomes while even Delon and Poetl were solid too. That just doesn't happen normally.

This iteration has one big move to make which is gonna decide everything. I'm convinced that we are eventually gonna consolidate for a flawed star. Have no idea who it will be.....

And that move is gonna be the real deciding factor. Either that flawed star thrives with us or we put the nail in the coffin for this iteration of the team. I was really pessimistic about this iteration of the team during the summer. But the first 20 games proved me wrong so now i'm a little more hesitant in thinking the next big move will fail. But if it does fail....then i think it becomes firesale time for this iteration and we start over again.

Ppl don't like to hear about flawed stars because it's easy to get caught up on recent history. But the whole point is to have the vision wherein the guy turns it around. So names like AD and Lamelo and Trae and Jah is what we're looking at. There will be a couple more added to that list in the next couple months.

[VanWest82]

We’re currently the 4th seed despite missing two of our starters for basically half the season.

[Clutch0z24]

We’re currently the 4th seed despite missing two of our starters for basically half the season.

Its not about seeding in legit prolly the worst Eastern Conference ever....Its not about our record of W/L ....If you actually believe this current team as is will be a good team in the playoffs you are lying to yourself....

We have so many glaring flaws its impossible to believe that our "Record of beating up on tanking teams or struggling teams" is something to brag about....

[VanWest82]

We’re currently the 4th seed despite missing two of our starters for basically half the season.

Its not about seeding in legit prolly the worst Eastern Conference ever....Its not about our record of W/L ....If you actually believe this current team as is will be a good team in the playoffs you are lying to yourself....

We have so many glaring flaws its impossible to believe that our "Record of beating up on tanking teams or struggling teams" is something to brag about....

All that means is we chose to compete at an opportune time. Good bet.

Also, our contracts are structured such that we effectively have an out after next year when RJ and BI come up, so if it isn’t working we can just trade let them expire, trade Scottie and rebuild at that point.

[kingz3290]

Said it many times, our problem is Barnes, he does not worth his contract. Lack of skill and shooting, yet, hardly improved.

How we build around him? Trade for 1st and 2nd options, trade for rim protector and lock down defender, and what else he needs to do? High level energy glue guy should not pay near-max.

Barnes will benefit monetarily from being in the right place (Toronto) at the right time. We had to pay him the way we did out of necessity (franchise perception).

His offensive skillset doesn't warrant max money, and its clear that he's not the 6'8 PG people thought he was; as it's clear that the Raptors still need a very good PG (Not Quickley) in order to be competitive.

Even Jokic has Jamal Murray. And Scottie Barnes is no Jokic.

[mdenny]

I agree with you. The number one reason we won the chip was our performance in the draft. During those years leading up to 2019. That's what put that team over the top. But it's just really easy to criticize drafting performance in hindsight. Even our best drafting years had an element of luck to it.

Blackjack might be a good analogy because yes, skill is involved.....but for any given hand, luck is the biggest factor. The best blackjack player in the world can lose a hand to a 12 year old. That's not true for other games like Chess. So there's only so much time you can spend judging it.

Devlin recently made reference to the Milwaukee Bucks history of inept drafting and i went to check it out. Giannis is the LAST prospect that they resigned/extended past his rookie contract. Which is crazy lol. Now THAT team is really bad at drafting. Imagine drafting 10 Gradey Dicks over the course of a decade.

There is NO team that doesn't draft a Gradey Dick here and there. It has to be part of the valuation of picks. And it's the exact reason why ppl tend to overvalue FRPs. They inherently come with ALOT of risk.

Yeah how i look at it is.....You play the drafting game till you eventually win....Because actually winning can have such a big impact on your fortunes that its worth the risk.....If anything you are at least accumulating assets along the way that could be used in the right trades as well....Also what many of the great front offices have in common they trade a player that has value for future draft picks....So they control other teams picks as well....Tends to be a formula to use as well...

Just having a stockpile of good young assets that have "Potential" is good for your franchise....Thats how Lakers traded for AD when they got LeBron and one of the reasons the Spurs are one of the favorites to get Giannis if he asks out....

Just having high draft picks has value in itself....Thats why i think playing the draft for a little bit has very little risk vs the potential rewards it can garner you if you play it the right way....And yeah all draft classes are not equal....Some have very minimal talents some have franchise altering players....Thats why its also good to pick and choose which draft you play in...

The blueprint is there. You give yourself multiple bites at the apple by drafting high with your own picks and taking swings with picks acquire from trading away your previous core (what we should have done with Siakam/OG/FVV).

HOU missed on Green with the 2nd overall pick. Used the surplus 1sts to trade for Sengun in the same draft.

DET drafted Ivey with their own pick. Used their surplus picks to trade for Duren.

OKC drafted Chet (their own pick) and JDub (Clippers pick) in ‘22.

No one hits on every pick. But when you stockpile surplus picks you improve your odds of hitting. Where are HOU and DET if they don’t have those extras picks?

It’s what makes the last few years so frustrating. Missing the playoffs 3 straight years and drafting 13th, 19th and 9th. Terrible. No high draft picks. No surplus picks to take chances. Just bad management.

Those aren't viable blueprints. Detroit spent 10 years in the lottery. Mught have even been 15? So that hardly constitutes a "plan".

OKC is built on mod to late picks, second rounders, and undrafted players. Chet is the only rotation player who was drafted in the top 10 that won the chip last year.

Houston is the one where i'll concede provides a blueprint. But a whole bunch of other teams had the same approach and failed. So i wouldn't call it a successful blueprint because that plan fails way more than it succeeds. The big difference for Houston compared to the other tank teams was hiring Ime and signing fred.

[Clutch0z24]

We’re currently the 4th seed despite missing two of our starters for basically half the season.

Its not about seeding in legit prolly the worst Eastern Conference ever....Its not about our record of W/L ....If you actually believe this current team as is will be a good team in the playoffs you are lying to yourself....

We have so many glaring flaws its impossible to believe that our "Record of beating up on tanking teams or struggling teams" is something to brag about....

All that means is we chose to compete at an opportune time. Good bet.

Also, our contracts are structured such that we effectively have an out after next year when RJ and BI come up, so if it isn’t working we can just trade let them expire, trade Scottie and rebuild at that point.

Lol cool so you are saying we are actively wasting our times atm with trying to win with such a flawed group of players because yeah we may be able to beat up on tanking teams (sometimes) and other struggling teams....But when we ever faced an actual good team this season we have lost....In the play ins o playoffs whichever we make we are prolly a first round exit loser.....

We needed a proper rebuild instead we are left with a half assed flawed core of players that don't even mesh well on the court together all that much....Sounds like a waste of time waiting for the inevitable at this point....