Sam has a tough job re: Bargnani

[whoknows]

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I'm pretty sure any coach in the league could have developed Bosh. He wasn't a late draft pick, he was a lottery pick in one of the deepest drafts of all time.

I though he is referring to Joey...

Yes, I don't see CB4 any less of a player anywhere else.
He's got the right attitude and skill - any coach would love to have him as a player.

[elephunk]

Sam's trying to change the way a lot of these guys play and I dunno if that's right.

If you don't mind, could you expand on this? Maybe, list some European players on our team that you think Sam is holding back or changing the way they're supposed to be playing?

European teams don't play like the Pistons but they still play well.

How well do you think the top notch European teams like CSKA Moscow and Panathinaikos would fare in the NBA? What would their records be, if they were to to play a whole 82 game season?

[El Presidente]

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Don't act like you don't know.

No, I don't.

[vulture]

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No, I don't.

Bosh, Hump, TJ, calderon have all either developed or got better under the tutelage of Sam.

[whoknows]

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Bosh, Hump, TJ, calderon have all either developed or gotten better under the tutelage of Sam.

.

All 3 had couple of years play time before playing for Sam.
In TJ & Hump case, they played more NBA games for other coaches then games under Sam. Jose played 5 yrs in Europe league before playing for Sam.

So the only "NBA virgin players" Sam can say he "developed" are CB4 & Joey, Araujo, Pape.
CB4 is impossible not to develop and the rest...

So please stop saying:

Sam has a good history of developing players

[raptorscam]

Its unfair to say that Bosh would have developed under anyone, but then hang the likes of Hoffa and Pape out there as if they are examples of failures on his part. Do you think anyone turns either of those guys into a productive NBA player?

The jury is out on Sam's ability to develop young talent, that is all that can be safely said at this point.

[vulture]

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So, you're saying that Sam had nothing to do with their development?
Hump was dumped by Sloan, TJ and Calderon couldn't shoot when they came to the Raptors. Let's not talk about Bosh because his offensive game has taken off since sam came.

But, let's just assume that Sam just tells them to take more shats.

[El Presidente]

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Bosh, Hump, TJ, calderon have all either developed or got better under the tutelage of Sam.

I think most of the developing there is happening on its own, you're giving Sam a little too much credit. That's like saying Popovich developed Duncan or Jackson developed Bryant or Mchale developed Garnett or Riley developed Wade or...you get the point.

He gave them an opportunity to play, that's for sure but I'm not sure his offensive sets or philosophies (if any) had an impact in creating ability that wasn't already there or enhancing it to the point where a coach could be given the majority of the credit.

[Abba Zabba]

Has anyone heard anything about Andrea's practice habits?
Does he practice hard?
Does he put in the extra time that guys like Bosh do?
It's completely unfair but he just looks lazy to me.

[The_Hater]

read more here

All players are not created equal. Sam, rightfully so, is going to let Bargnani play through more mistakes than Humphries or Graham because Bargnani has a much greater role in the future of the team and he needs to learn. And you learn by playing.

But, and this is a huge, but, it took all of four minutes in Friday

[prototype]

I hate when people say Sam didn't give Graham any chances. When Graham was drafted he was immediately put in the starting line-up over Mo Pete. He made Sam look like a fool, how is Sam suppose to still trust him?

[Harry Palmer]

I'm always surprised many are so black and white about this issue. IMO this is one of those 'no right answer' questions teams face, in terms of generalities.

If you favor the 'star' talent and it works, you are probably doing more good than bad. If you do it and it doesn't work, you are probably doing more bad than good. It's that tough a call, to me.

Even when it works there are downsides you just expect to be offset by the positive long-term impact of the development of the star, but there are also possible negatives in that regard, in terms of the star learning early-on that he is less accountable, and that can come back and haunt you with the star himself. But the potential gain is the greatest card in the deck, so it's tough.

Basically when it comes to this call, there are so many factors behind the scenes which we fans aren't aware of that affect it: how the 'star' practices, what if any pressure the GM is bringing to bear on the coach because the star is his investment, how the other players feel about the star, etc.

Unless I possess a lot of that information, I don't really take positions on what they should do, and just content myself with evaluating whether or not it worked.

[pharring]

Unless I possess a lot of that information, I don't really take positions on what they should do, and just content myself with evaluating whether or not it worked.

Even that is difficult to do. Do you evaluate after one game (like most on this board do)? After one month? One year? Five years (as BC suggests)?

[TribeZulu]

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Humps has been better than both Bargs and Graham this year. Bargs better have the better plus/minus stat given that he has been given more playing time with the starting unit. ALL of Bargs #'s have decreased this year with only a slight increase coming from assists.

The flipside to your logic is that Bargnani has logged more minutes against the other teams starting unit. Plus, with more minutes on the starting unit, Bargnani's numbers are probably going to go down since he'll get less touches with starters on the floor.

That being said, it's also interesting to note that Humps best +/- combo is when Martin-Delfino-Kapono-Humphries-Bargnani are on the floor. In that instance he's a +22. His lowest is (-13) when Calderon-Delfino-Kapono-Humphries-Bosh are on the floor.


I could look into the numbers in more detail, but that would be an utter waste of time. Fact is, Bargs is the better player with more potential as compared to Hump and Graham.


36 71 49 +22

[Harry Palmer]

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Even that is difficult to do. Do you evaluate after one game (like most on this board do)? After one month? One year? Five years (as BC suggests)?

Well, in terms of development, there are various segments that you can divide a player's development into imo but many of them depend on each person's perspective.

For example, though it hasn't been mentioned much lately, last year there was a lot of talk around here that our team winning would greatly enhance Bargs' development for this year and beyond, and in fact many felt that that value held more for our team than adding another top pick would have.

So when do we make the call on that? I would suggest that this season has largely dispelled that notion, but others might not. So when asking when it's ok to eval Bargs' development as it is currently being affected, as you mention there are several segments, any one of which will have proponents. As we saw with Hoffa, many die-hards will survive long past the due-date. On the other hand, and this seems to happen much more when we eval players of other teams vs. our own, many around here had written off Dwight Howard as a limited player even as early as before last year, which others felt very premature.

I guess you sort of throw a few factors in the air, like age, years of experience, and such, and then arrive at a conclusion few will agree with.

For me it's more a matter of looking for incremental progress. For example, I would say that in watching Bargs, there has been little if any progress for him as a player, from day one to now, and in some respects there has been regression. But the question that can't be answered is what, if any, unobservable progress has been made? Is he understanding things more now? Is he recognizing rotations quicker? Is he positioning himself better?

It doesn't appear that way to me, but it's hard to say for sure without seeing many of the plays/rotations drawn up as intended.

[bballCT]

I view the concept of ''double standard'' as just a concept. It's easy for us to analyze a player's PT from the comfort of our seats at home or in the arena, but making decisions on the fly while knowing that your job (irrelevant of salary) is on the line if you don't perform is another story.

Anywho, the NBA remains a business and it just makes sense to invest energy in players that you believe will yield higher returns in the long run. If one believes that a guy like Joey or Hump can be essential contributers to an elite team as they mature then so be it. Same for Andrea or any other young player in the league.

I'm biased when it comes to Bargnani since I believe he could bring quite a lot of unique aspects to a team once he fills up and matures, so I would see how more could be invested on his talent. I don't really see how he's being that much favored since he is quickly sent to the bench (or won't finish the game) when he doesn't contribute defensively so Sam definitely keeps an eye on him. Hump also had his growing pains in his career and based from what I've seen from Sam's philosophy, he will have plenty of playing time if he continues to work and grow.

[RaptorGuy]

read more here

All players are not created equal. Sam, rightfully so, is going to let Bargnani play through more mistakes than Humphries or Graham because Bargnani has a much greater role in the future of the team and he needs to learn. And you learn by playing.

But, and this is a huge, but, it took all of four minutes in Friday

[RaptorGuy]

Bargs has been given every opportunity. He was handed the starting eventhough, he was the most unproductive player on the team.
How is that fair to everyone else on the team?

Some fans have short term memory and are just too thick in the head. Bargnani had a good rookie year, and warranted to start at least in the beginning of the season. He's played bad this first part of the season, there's no denying that.

But some people have to give their head a shake, the Raptors need to develop him as it's in the best interests of the franchise and its success. Hump is finally playing well given some playing time this year. He was given time to develop as a player. He showed nothing previous to coming to Toronto. We will not win anything with Hump starting, he is a very good bench player.

Each player has their role on the team.

[El Presidente]

I hate when people say Sam didn't give Graham any chances. When Graham was drafted he was immediately put in the starting line-up over Mo Pete. He made Sam look like a fool, how is Sam suppose to still trust him?

I think Sam was fair to Joey and gave him plenty of opportunity to make his mark. Unfortunately, the skill just isn't there for Joey. He's got a jump shot that's lacking and doesn't have any real post moves or any blow-by quickness, I'll be surprised if he's in the NBA in a couple years. At best he might make it as a good defensive player if he decides to work on that part of his game and rebounds a bit better.

[Yosemite Dan]

What is really the point of these threads. Let's just bring it down to the lowest common denominator. If Toronto expects to have a front court of Bosh and Bargs to propel them to an eventual title, they might as well transfer to the WNBA because it ain't happening. How many times were we hoping Bosh would gain some weight and toughen up and eventually become a physical force in the paint. Well it ain't happening. He is what he is. A great player but will never be among the elite and a body type that only allows him to be a finesse type player with range. Nothing wrong with that but he needs some type of physical centre beside him to give him room.

Like the wishful thinking with Bosh so goes it with Bargs. He is and will never be the type of centre, at least on this team, that will propel us to great playoff success as a perfect complement to Bosh. He will never average 10 rebounds a game no matter how hard you wish for it and will never be a force in the paint. He is what he is. A jump shooter who likes to hang around the perimeter, that's never gonna change. It's pretty black and white, BC had visions of international granduer but he screwed up. Case closed, no one's perfect and sooner rather than later it will be time to learn from it and move on. Bargs may eventually become some kind valuable asset on a team that needs his type of ability but not here no matter how we try to rationalize it.