Taurean Prince

[Buzzard]

Really?!?

I still view it as a shrewd gamble. Losing DeRozan obviously hurts, but they seem capable of a few different options should they lose Kawhi for nothing.

We've seen them compete when Kawhi sits out games this year, so a core of Lowry, Siakam, Ibaka, OG Anunoby feels like they won't completely fall apart. And if they choose to rebuild, those same players have solid trade value around the league.

It was a huge gamble for a franchise willing to bet everything ona shot at true contention.

I agree. Losing Demar Derozan hurts but isn't the end of the world. They were coming to the end of an era with Lowry and Derozan and the time was right for making a high risk / high reward type of move to try to get them over the hump. They weren't going to be contenders otherwise (just also rans who finished with a high seed in the East but had very little chance of making any noise deep into the playoffs).

As much as it pains my soul, I gotta agree with AH and jamalll on this one.

TOR was facing a reckoning with that core. This way, they get to test drive Leonard. If it doesn't work out, step 1 of their rebuild (shedding Derozan's contract) is already done. Everyone else is easily moved as needed.

Plus, if you're their GM, you buy yourself years of employment by selling the "rebuilding" dream. Otherwise, he would've likely been jettisoned along with Lowry/Derozan once their typical playoff-fade happened.

I get the part of shedding Derozans contract for a rebuild but he did the easy part 1st. The hard part is Lowry and Ibaka. They will probably be in a similar position next year as we were without Horford but still having SAP.

I don't think it is easy to dump a one year 20 plus million dollar contract; which is what Lowry and Ibaka will be next season.

The only young piece they have that I like is Siakam; I am not yet sold on OG as a every day starter.

[_s_t_u_r_t_]

===BPM is affected by playing fewer games for a specified period of time, often a season, than those a player is being compared to.



Prince played relatively few games his first season, which made some of us mad, but was par for the Coach Bud course.

Prince has been out for a significant portion of this, his third season, and has just recently returned.



===WinShares, as the term implies, is a BPM-based stat that reflects the player's contribution to his team's wins (... specifically, if you examine further, it is baked into the calculation as a matter of the given team's pace.)



Prince's first season team won some games, but as indicated already, Bud didn't play him.

Prince's second season team was among the league's worst.

And this season's final tally will be better understood if/when the trading deadline is done, and perhaps it becomes the case that the younger players are left to fend for wins almost completely on their own.




===Value Over Replacement Player is affected by number of minutes played.



Effectively looks at BPM through a prism of how the player's BPM compares to a baseline "replacement" player, and incorporating the percentage of minutes played.

Prince's minutes were relatively few his first season, relatively many his second season, and this season, he's behind but could make up ground if he finishes the year healthy.


I stand by what I've said, and the numbers I've pulled are accurate. The raw data on Prince that is part of these calculations skews against him in some ways that, from a researcher's perspective, leaves any overarching conclusive statements wanting.

He is the classic "jury is still out" case for stats affected by playing time... significant flaws/shortcomings in data sets for Years 1 and 3, in particular, but Year 3 could remedy itself if we allow that to play out.

In terms of what he is likely to become, all we really can conclude is that Prince is tracking similar to George with two exceptions: rebounding, which conventionally speaking is probably the one thing we can probably definitively predict will continue to be the case; and then, slightly worse-off in assist-to-turnover numbers, but that could easily improve. Subjectively, it seems widely held that Prince flashes exceptional defense that gives reason for hope, but it's only flashes right now, and insufficient to feel an adequate degree of confidence.

That's all the time I'm going to invest in this thread.

(... and the crowd goes wild.)

[kg01]

I agree. Losing Demar Derozan hurts but isn't the end of the world. They were coming to the end of an era with Lowry and Derozan and the time was right for making a high risk / high reward type of move to try to get them over the hump. They weren't going to be contenders otherwise (just also rans who finished with a high seed in the East but had very little chance of making any noise deep into the playoffs).

As much as it pains my soul, I gotta agree with AH and jamalll on this one.

TOR was facing a reckoning with that core. This way, they get to test drive Leonard. If it doesn't work out, step 1 of their rebuild (shedding Derozan's contract) is already done. Everyone else is easily moved as needed.

Plus, if you're their GM, you buy yourself years of employment by selling the "rebuilding" dream. Otherwise, he would've likely been jettisoned along with Lowry/Derozan once their typical playoff-fade happened.

I get the part of shedding Derozans contract for a rebuild but he did the easy part 1st. The hard part is Lowry and Ibaka. They will probably be in a similar position next year as we were without Horford but still having SAP.

I don't think it is easy to dump a one year 20 plus million dollar contract; which is what Lowry and Ibaka will be next season.

The only young piece they have that I like is Siakam; I am not yet sold on OG as a every day starter.

I think them both being expirings and useful players make it more doable to move them both.

The problem, as I see it, is a guy like that one dude that comes off their bench who just signed a big deal there. Can't even remember his name. Went to UCLA. Smallish 2-guard but can't really shoot that well. Why am I drawing a blank? Anyway, he'll be an albatross for them like Tyler Johnson is one for MIA.

Agree on their young guys. They work well together but individually I'm not so sure I'm in love with any of them. I do like Van Fleet as a backup. Super solid.

[Buzzard]

As much as it pains my soul, I gotta agree with AH and jamalll on this one.

TOR was facing a reckoning with that core. This way, they get to test drive Leonard. If it doesn't work out, step 1 of their rebuild (shedding Derozan's contract) is already done. Everyone else is easily moved as needed.

Plus, if you're their GM, you buy yourself years of employment by selling the "rebuilding" dream. Otherwise, he would've likely been jettisoned along with Lowry/Derozan once their typical playoff-fade happened.

I get the part of shedding Derozans contract for a rebuild but he did the easy part 1st. The hard part is Lowry and Ibaka. They will probably be in a similar position next year as we were without Horford but still having SAP.

I don't think it is easy to dump a one year 20 plus million dollar contract; which is what Lowry and Ibaka will be next season.

The only young piece they have that I like is Siakam; I am not yet sold on OG as a every day starter.

I think them both being expirings and useful players make it more doable to move them both.

The problem, as I see it, is a guy like that one dude that comes off their bench who just signed a big deal there. Can't even remember his name. Went to UCLA. Smallish 2-guard but can't really shoot that well. Why am I drawing a blank? Anyway, he'll be an albatross for them like Tyler Johnson is one for MIA.

Agree on their young guys. They work well together but individually I'm not so sure I'm in love with any of them. I do like Van Fleet as a backup. Super solid.

Yes, the problem is not with the players being moved. Just about any contender could use Lowry or Ibaka. Matching up the contracts to make the deal is a huge problem. Norman Powell signed a 4 year 40 something million dollar deal. Van Fleet is serviceable; I forgot about him.

[Buzzard]

As much as it pains my soul, I gotta agree with AH and jamalll on this one.

TOR was facing a reckoning with that core. This way, they get to test drive Leonard. If it doesn't work out, step 1 of their rebuild (shedding Derozan's contract) is already done. Everyone else is easily moved as needed.

Plus, if you're their GM, you buy yourself years of employment by selling the "rebuilding" dream. Otherwise, he would've likely been jettisoned along with Lowry/Derozan once their typical playoff-fade happened.

I get the part of shedding Derozans contract for a rebuild but he did the easy part 1st. The hard part is Lowry and Ibaka. They will probably be in a similar position next year as we were without Horford but still having SAP.

I don't think it is easy to dump a one year 20 plus million dollar contract; which is what Lowry and Ibaka will be next season.

The only young piece they have that I like is Siakam; I am not yet sold on OG as a every day starter.

I think them both being expirings and useful players make it more doable to move them both.

The problem, as I see it, is a guy like that one dude that comes off their bench who just signed a big deal there. Can't even remember his name. Went to UCLA. Smallish 2-guard but can't really shoot that well. Why am I drawing a blank? Anyway, he'll be an albatross for them like Tyler Johnson is one for MIA.

Agree on their young guys. They work well together but individually I'm not so sure I'm in love with any of them. I do like Van Fleet as a backup. Super solid.

If Leonard bolts, the Raptors would have had Vince Carter, Chris Bosh, and Kawhi Leonard and not even a Eastern Conference Championship to show for their efforts. I do not know enough about their history, but have always wondered why they could not keep Vince and Bosh together to build around. I mean seriously, that is as talented a duo as you could ask for to start a championship build with back in 2003/04/05.

[kg01]

I get the part of shedding Derozans contract for a rebuild but he did the easy part 1st. The hard part is Lowry and Ibaka. They will probably be in a similar position next year as we were without Horford but still having SAP.

I don't think it is easy to dump a one year 20 plus million dollar contract; which is what Lowry and Ibaka will be next season.

The only young piece they have that I like is Siakam; I am not yet sold on OG as a every day starter.

I think them both being expirings and useful players make it more doable to move them both.

The problem, as I see it, is a guy like that one dude that comes off their bench who just signed a big deal there. Can't even remember his name. Went to UCLA. Smallish 2-guard but can't really shoot that well. Why am I drawing a blank? Anyway, he'll be an albatross for them like Tyler Johnson is one for MIA.

Agree on their young guys. They work well together but individually I'm not so sure I'm in love with any of them. I do like Van Fleet as a backup. Super solid.

Yes, the problem is not with the players being moved. Just about any contender could use Lowry or Ibaka. Matching up the contracts to make the deal is a huge problem. Norman Powell signed a 4 year 40 something million dollar deal. Van Fleet is serviceable; I forgot about him.

I hear you. And I don't know why I always block out Norman Powell. Well, I know why. It's 'cause he sucks.

[EazyRoc]

Prince isn’t the finisher and passer PG is. Nor has he been as consistently good defensively. I think Prince can develop a good perimeter oriented game 10 ft and out. PG is playing like an MVP candidate right now. That’s not the kind of player Prince will ever be.

Paul George is excellent.

Prince is a good passer, not a great one, and more to the point, he is too prone to turnovers. That will need to change, but it's also a stat where many NBA players do, in fact, grow and get better.

Prince is inconsistent defensively. I don't think he will ever be as consistent as George. I do think he will be more consistent than he is now, though. And he has shown himself capable of shutting down his opponents... just last night for example.

And, Prince isn't the rebounder that George is... if there's one area where I, too, doubt Prince will equal George that is it... because the stats support that, and because rebounding is not often an area where players become that much better over the years.

MVP candidate? I'll agree, I don't think that's where this is headed.

But. I'm saying if we evaluated George after 2 seasons and 28 games, that's not where we would think he would be now, either. Good, not great, would have been the assessment back then.

I believe we MUST give this the balance of this season to give Prince any level-headed serious assessment. Too many are being premature in their judgments, largely based on a single mention in a single tweet that his name was brought up in at least one trade discussion.

I dig the idea you’re trying to convey, but I just have to add that Taurean Prince has to be one of the worst passers I’ve seen. No touch; No placement; Timing is never right; Just terrible..

[Atlanta Hawk Fan]

===BPM is affected by playing fewer games for a specified period of time, often a season, than those a player is being compared to.



Prince played relatively few games his first season, which made some of us mad, but was par for the Coach Bud course.

Prince has been out for a significant portion of this, his third season, and has just recently returned.

Did you read what you posted? It literally says it is a rate stat not influenced by the amount of playing time a player gets. Rate stats are not impacted by playing fewer games.

===WinShares, as the term implies, is a BPM-based stat that reflects the player's contribution to his team's wins (... specifically, if you examine further, it is baked into the calculation as a matter of the given team's pace.)



Prince's first season team won some games, but as indicated already, Bud didn't play him.

Prince's second season team was among the league's worst.

And this season's final tally will be better understood if/when the trading deadline is done, and perhaps it becomes the case that the younger players are left to fend for wins almost completely on their own.

Again, the text you are quoting literally talks about how the WS figure can differ from the team's actual wins and we have a living example of John Collins having outstanding WS and WS/48 numbers on the same team as Prince. This doesn't hold water.

Look at his WS/48 relative to other players on the Hawks for context. During those same seasons, Prince ranked #11 among Atlanta Hawks in WS/48 his rookie year, #14 among Atlanta Hawks his sophmore year and ranks #11 among Atlanta Hawks this year.

Trying to pretend that his numbers are driven more by the team's win / loss record than Prince's performance is weak sauce.

(Note: WS/48 is independent of number of minutes. WS is a product of WS/48 * minutes so a lack of playing time will not hurt WS/48 numbers but will hurt WS numbers. WS is to VORP as BPM is to WS/48.)

===Value Over Replacement Player is affected by number of minutes played.



Effectively looks at BPM through a prism of how the player's BPM compares to a baseline "replacement" player, and incorporating the percentage of minutes played.

Prince's minutes were relatively few his first season, relatively many his second season, and this season, he's behind but could make up ground if he finishes the year healthy.

I've already acknowledged that this is a metric based on total production - not a rate based statistic. So that means he hasn't done much of value during his time as a Hawk as measured by this statistic because his minutes weren't that high quality (as reflected in the related BPM metric) and he wasn't getting full playing time for readiness and injury reasons in 2 of his 3 seasons. Again, however, you should not let missed games obscure the real message here. Prince has played 28 games compared to 33 for Collins. Prince has a negative VORP because his minutes have had negative value. Had he played the same in more minutes it would be more negative. The limited minutes have actually been a mitigating factor against a lower score assuming consistent performance. Collins, of course, has a team leading 1.1 VORP despite a similar number of missed games.

PER like BPM and WS/48 has nothing to do with minutes and Prince's pedestrian numbers have nothing to do with limited minutes or the team's win / loss record.

I hope we can discuss these metrics accurately instead of pretending like any of them other than VORP is playing time dependent. They reflect quality of minutes - not sum of minutes. VORP and WS reflect the combination of quality of minutes and minutes played.

My point isn't that Prince is doomed to fail just because he hasn't set the world on fire so far. It is that (1) he has not been in the same universe as Paul George (especially using the most meaningful comparison of what they did during their same age seasons) and we should stop comparing them and (2) Prince has 1.5 seasons left to develop before he is a RFA. Again, if I'm GM I'm giving him at least through the end of this season but I wouldn't feel that Schlenk was being illogical if he had already decided that Prince was not part of his plan (I haven't reached that conclusion but I do rate Huerter higher and can see that this draft seems to be more heavily stacked with wings than other positions of need for us) and therefore elected to deal him for in a transaction that he felt reflected the high end of the potential development spectrum while there was still more uncertainty about his development.

[Jamaaliver]

Read on Twitter

[jayu70]

If the Hawks keep Prince because Schlenk can't get what he wants in trade, how much would you pay him?
He's eligible for an extension this offseason, if none reached he'll be a RFA next offseason.

Wing Prices around the league are all over the place. From Justise Winslow - 3yrs/$39 mil to Otto Porter - 4yr/$106 mil - yikes
KCP and Hood played out their QOs looking for big paydays and now can't find long term deals.

[Jamaaliver]

If the Hawks keep Prince because Schlenk can't get what he wants in trade, how much would you pay him?
He's eligible for an extension this offseason, if none reached he'll be a RFA next offseason.

Great question: I'd go similar to the Winslow contract. 3 years/$42 million With a team option on Year 3

[jayu70]

If the Hawks keep Prince because Schlenk can't get what he wants in trade, how much would you pay him?
He's eligible for an extension this offseason, if none reached he'll be a RFA next offseason.

Great question: I'd go similar to the Winslow contract. 3 years/$42 million With a team option on Year 3

That would be ideal.
By the time that extension kicks in Baze and Plumlee would be off the books.

[Jamaaliver]

Hawks shift attention to trade deadline, and another player makes it known he wants to stay



Jeremy Lin, Dewayne Dedmon, Kent Bazemore and Taurean Prince all have been included in rumors leading up to the deadline.

Prince is still on his rookie deal and won’t be a restricted free agent until 2020. ESPN’s Zach Lowe reported the Hawks are looking for a young player and a pick in return for Prince, but they haven’t gotten much traction on any deal.

That’s good news for Prince because he doesn’t want to leave.

“It’s part of the game, but I think everyone in this locker room knows, my family knows, Travis knows and from top to bottom down, I want to be here,” Prince told The Athletic. “I’ve committed every day of my life since I’ve gotten here to Atlanta and the Atlanta Hawks. As long they continue to give me the opportunity, that’s what I am going to do.”

Prince acknowledged that he knew of the reports linking him to trades, and a possible trade has been on his mind because of the relationships he has established inside the locker room.

“I think a great organization starts with the people involved,” Prince said. “From top to bottom, from owners to the people who handle janitorial duties at the facility, there are great people here. It kind of reminds me of my Baylor days because everyone there was just family oriented. I’ve seen people come and go in this organization, and I feel like I am a huge part of this organization, and I want to continue to be here.”

Prince missed more than a month with an ankle injury and used the time away from the court for introspection. He acknowledged that his turnovers were detrimental to the team. When he qualified in minutes played earlier this season, Prince ranked nearly dead last in assist-to-turnover ratio in the league. He doesn’t have more than two turnovers in a game since returning from injury.

The Athletic

[kg01]

Hawks shift attention to trade deadline, and another player makes it known he wants to stay



Jeremy Lin, Dewayne Dedmon, Kent Bazemore and Taurean Prince all have been included in rumors leading up to the deadline.

Prince is still on his rookie deal and won’t be a restricted free agent until 2020. ESPN’s Zach Lowe reported the Hawks are looking for a young player and a pick in return for Prince, but they haven’t gotten much traction on any deal.

That’s good news for Prince because he doesn’t want to leave.

“It’s part of the game, but I think everyone in this locker room knows, my family knows, Travis knows and from top to bottom down, I want to be here,” Prince told The Athletic. “I’ve committed every day of my life since I’ve gotten here to Atlanta and the Atlanta Hawks. As long they continue to give me the opportunity, that’s what I am going to do.”

Prince acknowledged that he knew of the reports linking him to trades, and a possible trade has been on his mind because of the relationships he has established inside the locker room.

“I think a great organization starts with the people involved,” Prince said. “From top to bottom, from owners to the people who handle janitorial duties at the facility, there are great people here. It kind of reminds me of my Baylor days because everyone there was just family oriented. I’ve seen people come and go in this organization, and I feel like I am a huge part of this organization, and I want to continue to be here.”

Prince missed more than a month with an ankle injury and used the time away from the court for introspection. He acknowledged that his turnovers were detrimental to the team. When he qualified in minutes played earlier this season, Prince ranked nearly dead last in assist-to-turnover ratio in the league. He doesn’t have more than two turnovers in a game since returning from injury.

The Athletic

Don't tell jayu but she might've talked me off my desire to trade Printz. His play lately has been much-improved. The quotes from what you posted seen to suggest he's made a concerted effort to play better. A Winslow-esque deal for him would be good, assuming he continues to work to improve.

Shhh .. don't tell jayburd I said that.

[Jamaaliver]

Don't tell jayu but she might've talked me off my desire to trade Printz.

A Winslow-esque deal for him would be good, assuming he continues to work to improve.

[Spud2nique]

Hawks shift attention to trade deadline, and another player makes it known he wants to stay



Jeremy Lin, Dewayne Dedmon, Kent Bazemore and Taurean Prince all have been included in rumors leading up to the deadline.

Prince is still on his rookie deal and won’t be a restricted free agent until 2020. ESPN’s Zach Lowe reported the Hawks are looking for a young player and a pick in return for Prince, but they haven’t gotten much traction on any deal.

That’s good news for Prince because he doesn’t want to leave.

“It’s part of the game, but I think everyone in this locker room knows, my family knows, Travis knows and from top to bottom down, I want to be here,” Prince told The Athletic. “I’ve committed every day of my life since I’ve gotten here to Atlanta and the Atlanta Hawks. As long they continue to give me the opportunity, that’s what I am going to do.”

Prince acknowledged that he knew of the reports linking him to trades, and a possible trade has been on his mind because of the relationships he has established inside the locker room.

“I think a great organization starts with the people involved,” Prince said. “From top to bottom, from owners to the people who handle janitorial duties at the facility, there are great people here. It kind of reminds me of my Baylor days because everyone there was just family oriented. I’ve seen people come and go in this organization, and I feel like I am a huge part of this organization, and I want to continue to be here.”

Prince missed more than a month with an ankle injury and used the time away from the court for introspection. He acknowledged that his turnovers were detrimental to the team. When he qualified in minutes played earlier this season, Prince ranked nearly dead last in assist-to-turnover ratio in the league. He doesn’t have more than two turnovers in a game since returning from injury.

The Athletic

Don't tell jayu but she might've talked me off my desire to trade Printz. His play lately has been much-improved. The quotes from what you posted seen to suggest he's made a concerted effort to play better. A Winslow-esque deal for him would be good, assuming he continues to work to improve.

Shhh .. don't tell jayburd I said that.

Jaybird is the numbers person lately, not the talent evaluator. I could give a F less what she thinks...


Ya, it’s one of those days for me.

Sturt got it first...his wordy azz

[Spud2nique]

Don't tell jayu but she might've talked me off my desire to trade Printz.

A Winslow-esque deal for him would be good, assuming he continues to work to improve.

Why don’t you go find the deal best for the Celts and we will deal with the Hawks side of things here Jamaal. Exit stage left.

[Jamaaliver]

Why don’t you go find the deal best for the Celts and we will deal with the Hawks side of things here Jamaal. Exit stage left.

Ya, it’s one of those days for me.

A gift for Spud:

Spoiler:

[Spud2nique]

Why don’t you go find the deal best for the Celts and we will deal with the Hawks side of things here Jamaal. Exit stage left.

Ya, it’s one of those days for me.

A gift for Spud:

Spoiler:

Slide it over to ur boyfriend 2 feet away

[_s_t_u_r_t_]

Again, "a young player and a pick" tells us really nothing... that could be terribly expensive or a giveaway.

Hopefully crow isn't on today's menu, and/but I see this as nothing more than Schlenk measuring the market, particularly in view of the impending RFA status.

Bud barely played Prince until the latter half of this rookie season, and even then, not so much.

This season has been uneven, being part of a roster that was getting used to one another and to a rookie coach for the first couple dozen games, then going down with the injury, and now incrementally getting reincorporated into the flow.

So all the enthusiasm that many felt for the guy's future after his 2nd season really shouldn't be all that dampened.

Last night's 4th quarter offensive performance was important to the end result, and it seems he's getting back into the flow and making some important contribution most nights now. And btw, I noticed someone tried to ding him for his defense on Booker the other night, but if you actually watch the video clip highlights of Booker's scoring, on only a couple of those occasions was Prince the primary defender... and on one of those, Booker was so far off the 3 point line, no one would have guarded that with any effect.