The Official Allen Crabbe Thread

[kamaze]

What's the basis of this discussion? what's the worry part vs the don't worry?

Prok is worried that Marks could send us into a cap hell / luxury tax situation and put us in a ‘billy king’ two forked road when we get our picks back.

I don’t see how when we are developing guys into good players and the Deron era was considered cap hell due to how undesirable these guys were due to age, personality, durability.

RHJ is legitimately taking a significant leap, Dinwiddie is making a significant leap, etc. There’s no divas on this team and despite the critics, I forgot D’angelo was even here. We were told he’s such a distraction and he’s chilling in rehab...something Deron didn’t want to do and which is why he’s out of the league.

I’ve been in here long enough to realize that Prok is scared that Crabbe becomes a bad contract and we can’t move him in case someone elite wants to come here (Thompson...Porzingis, AD, etc).

that is 100000000000000% NOT what i said.

What i said was the attitude Kamakaze has of "everyone makes mistakes so never worry about GM mistakes" is what leads to bad things. and having blind faith no matter what is what allows something like the billy king era to happen

i never said we are headed down a billy king path. just pointing out his flawed logic.

I do think the crabbe move will prove to be a bad one, but nothing like the wallace deal or that situation. but we will have some VERY tough decisions the next 2 summers.

we are staring a situation in the face where we are over the cap with a 30 win team.

Prok has PTSD after the Billy King day no one else is worried except him.

[treiz]

^Should we not be worried? Not even a little bit?

Just find it hilarious that for some reason we're the bad guys because we're not acting like we don't give a f, and have some concerns that could impact the team heavily down the line

[LKIRNets]

What's the basis of this discussion? what's the worry part vs the don't worry?

Prok is worried that Marks could send us into a cap hell / luxury tax situation and put us in a ‘billy king’ two forked road when we get our picks back.

I don’t see how when we are developing guys into good players and the Deron era was considered cap hell due to how undesirable these guys were due to age, personality, durability.

RHJ is legitimately taking a significant leap, Dinwiddie is making a significant leap, etc. There’s no divas on this team and despite the critics, I forgot D’angelo was even here. We were told he’s such a distraction and he’s chilling in rehab...something Deron didn’t want to do and which is why he’s out of the league.

I’ve been in here long enough to realize that Prok is scared that Crabbe becomes a bad contract and we can’t move him in case someone elite wants to come here (Thompson...Porzingis, AD, etc).

that is 100000000000000% NOT what i said.

What i said was the attitude Kamakaze has of "everyone makes mistakes so never worry about GM mistakes" is what leads to bad things. and having blind faith no matter what is what allows something like the billy king era to happen

i never said we are headed down a billy king path. just pointing out his flawed logic.

I do think the crabbe move will prove to be a bad one, but nothing like the wallace deal or that situation. but we will have some VERY tough decisions the next 2 summers.

we are staring a situation in the face where we are over the cap with a 30 win team.

In that sense. Prok is right. Saying don't worry w/ a coach is one thing. Don't worry w/ a GM b/c nothing can ever be as bad as Billy King is a huge mistake.

I don't agree on the Crabbe thing doh.

We've seen improvements in areas of defense w/ Crabbe, for instance

Allan Crabbe's defensive numbers

In 2017 guarding the offscreen he's in the 55.1 percentile in the league, he was in the 48.8 last season.
guarding the screen and roll ball handler, he's in the 66.4 percentile in the league, in 2016 he was in 36 percentile.

So he's improving on defense.

His offensive issues are shooting off the SnR, being in the 6 percentile is terrible. especially when he was in the 48th percentile last season. Scoring 38% of the time vs his 18.5% this year. It's still early but that needs to improve. His offscreen offense in 2016 was in the 55 % scoring 42% of the time. In 2017 it's improved to the 63 percentile at a 42% scoring rate.

So he's slow and steadily improving. Got to find out what's going on w/ him off screen n roll, curl out plays. This offseason he's going to have to do a lot of cardio b/c he should be raking in cuts to the rim and that's just a huge area of weakness for him.

[treiz]

^Just to bring you up to speed with this topic which has been going on since the trade in the summer.

The criticism of the trade was never about Crabbe the player, he's a great fit for this team, young, can improve and definitely fits the team's philosophy. The problem is of Marks trading for Crabbe and his $19million per year contract for the next 3 years, which hinders our flexibility and cap space in the near future especially considering that our core guys are gonna need huge extensions in the next couple of years if they are to avoid RFA, which could lead to the team potentially being capped out whilst the team is still in its development phase.

If his contract was even half the cost I don't think there would be any problems whatsoever, but we are paying all-star money for a guy who's effectively a role player and even though he is improving, there has been no indication (even from Portland fans) that Crabbe's play would ever justify the contract Marks gave him.

[TheNetsFan]

Back on topic, the coaching staff tells AC to keep shooting that's why they have the 3rd worst 3 point shooting %. The team shoots too many of them even if they're ice cold.

Shooting poor from 3 > shooting average from 2.

its the only thing keeping us from being 0-30. we dont have good offensive players. playing with pace and shooting high efficiencny shots is 100% the way to go.

id rather crabbe shoot 37% from three on alot of threes then shoot 44% from 2 on alot of twos

I agree with this 99%. The pace & 3pt shot, even if we're shooting it rather inefficiently, are a gimmick that is helping us compete in games we have no business competing in. We shoot ourselves in and out of games regularly. Our biggest problem is knowing which game situations to break away from the 3 point shot, e.g. during a cold stretch to stop an opposing run, end of quarters, or protecting a lead at the end of the game.

[LKIRNets]

^Just to bring you up to speed with this topic which has been going on since the trade in the summer.

The criticism of the trade was never about Crabbe the player, he's a great fit for this team, young, can improve and definitely fits the team's philosophy. The problem is of Marks trading for Crabbe and his $19million per year contract for the next 3 years, which hinders our flexibility and cap space in the near future especially considering that our core guys are gonna need huge extensions in the next couple of years if they are to avoid RFA, which could lead to the team potentially being capped out whilst the team is still in its development phase.

If his contract was even half the cost I don't think there would be any problems whatsoever, but we are paying all-star money for a guy who's effectively a role player and even though he is improving, there has been no indication (even from Portland fans) that Crabbe's play would ever justify the contract Marks gave him.

but that's why we banked on him. We missed on Otto Porter. We needed something to keep us a competitive team in our system. Did we overspend? yes. But it was the only way to bring good players to Brooklyn at the time. Remember people did not want to come here. This is a culture we're building and banking on.

[TheNetsFan]

^Just to bring you up to speed with this topic which has been going on since the trade in the summer.

The criticism of the trade was never about Crabbe the player, he's a great fit for this team, young, can improve and definitely fits the team's philosophy. The problem is of Marks trading for Crabbe and his $19million per year contract for the next 3 years, which hinders our flexibility and cap space in the near future especially considering that our core guys are gonna need huge extensions in the next couple of years if they are to avoid RFA, which could lead to the team potentially being capped out whilst the team is still in its development phase.

If his contract was even half the cost I don't think there would be any problems whatsoever, but we are paying all-star money for a guy who's effectively a role player and even though he is improving, there has been no indication (even from Portland fans) that Crabbe's play would ever justify the contract Marks gave him.

1) Crabbe is under contract this year & the next 2 years.
2) His money on the books this year doesn't seem to have precluded us from doing anything yet, and it likely won't.
3) There's really only 2 offseasons where it could potentially affect our flexibility (2018 & 2019).
4) He has a player option in 2019. If he plays well enough to believe he can earn $12-$13mil per year over 4 years, there's an outside chance he could opt out for long-term security.

We're not attracting elite FAs if we're winning 20 games a year. Obviously we're trying to put a respectable product on the floor, and create a positive atmosphere and culture in order to become more attractive to FAs. I keep saying I believe the plan is for 2020 & beyond. We can't be overly concerned about which role players we miss out on in 2018.

[treiz]

but that's why we banked on him. We missed on Otto Porter. We needed something to keep us a competitive team in our system. Did we overspend? yes. But it was the only way to bring good players to Brooklyn at the time. Remember people did not want to come here. This is a culture we're building and banking on.

You can't compare the Porter situation to the Crabbe situation, yes Marks offered Crabbe the contract but that's not how he ended up on this team. If he came in during the year that Marks offered it to him then yes I would agree with you, we were desperate for talent and we needed to do whatever it took to get them here considering our situation at the time (as you mentioned).

But when this trade was completed, we already had Russell, Carroll and the two picks that came with him, Levert, RHJ (who took a massive leap from the previous year), Lin was back and tons of cap space. We were already in a MUCH better situation and had a MUCH better foundation compared to Marks' first offseason, and that's what made this trade wholly unnecessary.

We just added an extra $12million into our cap for essentially a role player.

1) Crabbe is under contract this year & the next 2 years.
2) His money on the books this year doesn't seem to have precluded us from doing anything yet, and it likely won't.
3) There's really only 2 offseasons where it could potentially affect our flexibility (2018 & 2019).
4) He has a player option in 2019. If he plays well enough to believe he can earn $12-$13mil per year over 4 years, there's an outside chance he could opt out for long-term security.

We're not attracting elite FAs if we're winning 20 games a year. Obviously we're trying to put a respectable product on the floor, and create a positive atmosphere and culture in order to become more attractive to FAs. I keep saying I believe the plan is for 2020 & beyond. We can't be overly concerned about which role players we miss out on in 2018.

1) Apologies if I mistyped that, I meant to say the next 3 years from when we got him.

2) Yeah so far it hasn't, but as I've preached many times before, 3 years (from when he moved here) is a long time, and a lot of things can happen, I've listed many examples of the various uncertainties that can happen around the league in previous posts and how we could be missing out on them just because we don't have pure cap space to trade anymore. Just for clarification as well, this is assuming that we extend/re-sign RHJ and Russell.

3) Precisely, and despite all the savings we can make with Lin and Carroll coming off the books, we still have to extend RHJ, Levert and Russell within that timeframe, so the savings essentially gets wiped out and then some.

4) Highly doubt he opts out of $19 million, this is probably the last massive contract he'll ever receive, he's a good enough player that he'll get a long term contract from another team after his current one.

5) There's nothing wrong with that at this current moment in time, we shouldn't be focusing on attracting free agents right now. We should be doing that once our core guys of RHJ/Russell/Allen/Levert/Din are either in their primes or entering their primes, right now their development is the priority. We can worry about attracting FAs when we're ready to make a push not just for the playoffs, but to try and make a deep run at it.

We won 20 games last year, and yet we still have a more positive atmosphere and attitude in the team than half the league, and that's because of how the set up is and what other teams see when they play us, this was obvious last season when players on other teams constantly praised the team for their graft. As long as the entire organisation from top to bottom are on the same page, that's where the attraction to FAs will come from.

Again (and I agree with you), I'm not too concerned about attracting FAs right now. But having that pure cap could allow us to be players in other avenues of acquiring talent, we could be used as a 3rd team to absorb cap for more picks, teams might decide to blow it up and sell a star (like Boogie for example) and rebuild, we can then swoop in on that or even another Russell or Carroll like trade. My whole stance on this has always been about flexibility and being ready to pounce when an opportunity arrives.

[Netaman]

A lot of chicken little'ing going on re: the cap situation. They could pretty easily get max room this year, which they won't because there's nobody to spend it on, and they're on target to have enough space for a max each of the following years. Mozgov and Crabbe are their only 2 big contracts and both have just 2 years remaining. They will have $30M in expiring deals heading into next year and $37M in additional expiring contracts heading into 2019.

hypothetically? how are you sheeding that 11-14M for a max deal this summer? I dont see it without trading carroll, mozgov, or allen?

Trading Carroll. I'm not advocating that they should definitely do it, just that it's something that shouldn't be all that hard to do around the draft IF there's a better use of the $. He might even be more deal-able at the deadline this year for some combo of lesser contracts and a pick. I value his presence on the team so it's not something I'd look to do unless there's a good reason (which there probably won't be).

[Netaman]

A lot of chicken little'ing going on re: the cap situation. They could pretty easily get max room this year, which they won't because there's nobody to spend it on, and they're on target to have enough space for a max each of the following years. Mozgov and Crabbe are their only 2 big contracts and both have just 2 years remaining. They will have $30M in expiring deals heading into next year and $37M in additional expiring contracts heading into 2019.

Did you take into account the extensions we're going to need to hand out to RHJ/Russell either this offseason or to match them next offseason if they hit RFA or are you completely ignoring that for now? Because apart from that I have no idea where you get your math from.

I did - but first and foremost, I am mostly unconcerned about losing someone through RFA. This has been the only franchise that has been active pursuing RFA's and there are going to be fewer teams with cap room over the next few summers, not more.

Second I'm not worried about the extension for DLo because he's going to be a max or near max so matching will be a pretty easy decision. If he's willing to take a team friendly deal next August, great, start negotiations - but if not they can just match anything. May as well use the extra time with extra cap room and sign him at the last possible moment. If he does take an extension next August, they just need to make sure there's still room available for Summer 2019 (KD & Klay being the obvious headliners) - which should be possible since there's currently only $40M on the books for that season.

RHJ's situation is different because there could be room for a desperate team to poach him and make him very overpaid, kind of like Denver did with KMart back in the day. I see him as Crash 2.0, which means he'd be very overpaid making the max. At the same time, I'm more hesitant to give him a long term deal than DLo because of the style he plays. Like Crash, he appears to get injured almost on a nightly basis. So for me, the jury is out on him and I'm not fully ready to plan the future around his extension. Flash forward 1 year, if this team is looking like a playoff team on the rise I could see him being a trade chip if there's a Kyrie-esque available star. Maybe That's Klay Thompson. Who knows? Bottomline is I'm not in a rush to hand him a ton of guaranteed money.

[treiz]

I did - but first and foremost, I am mostly unconcerned about losing someone through RFA. This has been the only franchise that has been active pursuing RFA's and there are going to be fewer teams with cap room over the next few summers, not more.

Second I'm not worried about the extension for DLo because he's going to be a max or near max so matching will be a pretty easy decision. If he's willing to take a team friendly deal next August, great, start negotiations - but if not they can just match anything. May as well use the extra time with extra cap room and sign him at the last possible moment. If he does take an extension next August, they just need to make sure there's still room available for Summer 2019 (KD & Klay being the obvious headliners) - which should be possible since there's currently only $40M on the books for that season.

RHJ's situation is different because there could be room for a desperate team to poach him and make him very overpaid, kind of like Denver did with KMart back in the day. I see him as Crash 2.0, which means he'd be very overpaid making the max. At the same time, I'm more hesitant to give him a long term deal than DLo because of the style he plays. Like Crash, he appears to get injured almost on a nightly basis. So for me, the jury is out on him and I'm not fully ready to plan the future around his extension. Flash forward 1 year, if this team is looking like a playoff team on the rise I could see him being a trade chip if there's a Kyrie-esque available star. Maybe That's Klay Thompson. Who knows? Bottomline is I'm not in a rush to hand him a ton of guaranteed money.

The point is teams are probably going to give Russell/RHJ offer sheets, and in order for Russell or RHJ to sign those offer sheets, they're going to overpay them and put us in an even worser situation. Just because it's mainly been us that's heavily engaged in RFAs doesn't mean no other team would too, in fact other teams engaged in them too, it's just that our offers were signed (since we offered a boatload of money) especially if they value our players. So, why not just skip all of that, and try to extend them this offseason at a team friendly contract?

With regards to Russell/RHJ, this team will do everything in its power to retain them, I can't see a scenario (at this current moment) where our core players are not here 5 years from now, if not for a team friendly contract then max or close to the max, either way they're going to take a significant chunk of our cap. That's why I've been trying to get across that although yes we make some savings when Lin and Carroll expires, that will ultimately be offset and then some when we inevitably give Russell/RHJ their extensions, doesn't matter if it's team friendly or not.

[LKIRNets]

I did - but first and foremost, I am mostly unconcerned about losing someone through RFA. This has been the only franchise that has been active pursuing RFA's and there are going to be fewer teams with cap room over the next few summers, not more.

Second I'm not worried about the extension for DLo because he's going to be a max or near max so matching will be a pretty easy decision. If he's willing to take a team friendly deal next August, great, start negotiations - but if not they can just match anything. May as well use the extra time with extra cap room and sign him at the last possible moment. If he does take an extension next August, they just need to make sure there's still room available for Summer 2019 (KD & Klay being the obvious headliners) - which should be possible since there's currently only $40M on the books for that season.

RHJ's situation is different because there could be room for a desperate team to poach him and make him very overpaid, kind of like Denver did with KMart back in the day. I see him as Crash 2.0, which means he'd be very overpaid making the max. At the same time, I'm more hesitant to give him a long term deal than DLo because of the style he plays. Like Crash, he appears to get injured almost on a nightly basis. So for me, the jury is out on him and I'm not fully ready to plan the future around his extension. Flash forward 1 year, if this team is looking like a playoff team on the rise I could see him being a trade chip if there's a Kyrie-esque available star. Maybe That's Klay Thompson. Who knows? Bottomline is I'm not in a rush to hand him a ton of guaranteed money.

The point is teams are probably going to give Russell/RHJ offer sheets, and in order for Russell or RHJ to sign those offer sheets, they're going to overpay them and put us in an even worser situation. Just because it's mainly been us that's heavily engaged in RFAs doesn't mean no other team would too, in fact other teams engaged in them too, it's just that our offers were signed (since we offered a boatload of money) especially if they value our players. So, why not just skip all of that, and try to extend them this offseason at a team friendly contract?

With regards to Russell/RHJ, this team will do everything in its power to retain them, I can't see a scenario (at this current moment) where our core players are not here 5 years from now, if not for a team friendly contract then max or close to the max, either way they're going to take a significant chunk of our cap. That's why I've been trying to get across that although yes we make some savings when Lin and Carroll expires, that will ultimately be offset and then some when we inevitably give Russell/RHJ their extensions, doesn't matter if it's team friendly or not.

I think Russell and RHJ are staying. The only real RFA risk is Crabbe and Lin. And honestly I would have been used Lin's contract to get me something in the draft. I can't bank on his health and that money on his contract is the one thing that keeps us from retaining 2 pieces.

[Prokorov]

^Just to bring you up to speed with this topic which has been going on since the trade in the summer.

The criticism of the trade was never about Crabbe the player, he's a great fit for this team, young, can improve and definitely fits the team's philosophy. The problem is of Marks trading for Crabbe and his $19million per year contract for the next 3 years, which hinders our flexibility and cap space in the near future especially considering that our core guys are gonna need huge extensions in the next couple of years if they are to avoid RFA, which could lead to the team potentially being capped out whilst the team is still in its development phase.

If his contract was even half the cost I don't think there would be any problems whatsoever, but we are paying all-star money for a guy who's effectively a role player and even though he is improving, there has been no indication (even from Portland fans) that Crabbe's play would ever justify the contract Marks gave him.

but that's why we banked on him. We missed on Otto Porter. We needed something to keep us a competitive team in our system. Did we overspend? yes. But it was the only way to bring good players to Brooklyn at the time. Remember people did not want to come here. This is a culture we're building and banking on.

only he is not a good player. he is a role player. as we predicted, you get basically the same from harris for 18 million less. and can probably get the same from stauskus for 14 million less.

[Prokorov]

A lot of chicken little'ing going on re: the cap situation. They could pretty easily get max room this year, which they won't because there's nobody to spend it on, and they're on target to have enough space for a max each of the following years. Mozgov and Crabbe are their only 2 big contracts and both have just 2 years remaining. They will have $30M in expiring deals heading into next year and $37M in additional expiring contracts heading into 2019.

hypothetically? how are you sheeding that 11-14M for a max deal this summer? I dont see it without trading carroll, mozgov, or allen?

Trading Carroll. I'm not advocating that they should definitely do it, just that it's something that shouldn't be all that hard to do around the draft IF there's a better use of the $. He might even be more deal-able at the deadline this year for some combo of lesser contracts and a pick. I value his presence on the team so it's not something I'd look to do unless there's a good reason (which there probably won't be).

i think it would be difficult to move carroll(for cap space). we would need to include the toronto pick and probably still take back some salary. i know he has played better here, but i still dont think he is a guy teams are willing to take on for 15 million without a first if they are sending back pure cap space.

[kamaze]

^Should we not be worried? Not even a little bit?

Just find it hilarious that for some reason we're the bad guys because we're not acting like we don't give a f, and have some concerns that could impact the team heavily down the line

I'm sorry I didn't know it was contagious. If Washington didn't match that offer sheet you two would be in the looney bin now.

[LKIRNets]

^Just to bring you up to speed with this topic which has been going on since the trade in the summer.

The criticism of the trade was never about Crabbe the player, he's a great fit for this team, young, can improve and definitely fits the team's philosophy. The problem is of Marks trading for Crabbe and his $19million per year contract for the next 3 years, which hinders our flexibility and cap space in the near future especially considering that our core guys are gonna need huge extensions in the next couple of years if they are to avoid RFA, which could lead to the team potentially being capped out whilst the team is still in its development phase.

If his contract was even half the cost I don't think there would be any problems whatsoever, but we are paying all-star money for a guy who's effectively a role player and even though he is improving, there has been no indication (even from Portland fans) that Crabbe's play would ever justify the contract Marks gave him.

but that's why we banked on him. We missed on Otto Porter. We needed something to keep us a competitive team in our system. Did we overspend? yes. But it was the only way to bring good players to Brooklyn at the time. Remember people did not want to come here. This is a culture we're building and banking on.

only he is not a good player. he is a role player. as we predicted, you get basically the same from harris for 18 million less. and can probably get the same from stauskus for 14 million less.

a bit of a better defender and rebounder. I still haven't given up on Crabbe. I think he's adjusting to new environment and role. He can't go long spurts w/o shooting, we do have to do a bit of a better job getting him in position like he was w/ that corner 3.

[Prokorov]

but that's why we banked on him. We missed on Otto Porter. We needed something to keep us a competitive team in our system. Did we overspend? yes. But it was the only way to bring good players to Brooklyn at the time. Remember people did not want to come here. This is a culture we're building and banking on.

only he is not a good player. he is a role player. as we predicted, you get basically the same from harris for 18 million less. and can probably get the same from stauskus for 14 million less.

a bit of a better defender and rebounder. I still haven't given up on Crabbe. I think he's adjusting to new environment and role. He can't go long spurts w/o shooting, we do have to do a bit of a better job getting him in position like he was w/ that corner 3.

a bit of a better defender but still a negative one. the rebounding edge is extremely small and both get 90% of their uncontested.

the only thing Crabbe is really doing better at this juncture is shoot free throws. all the things crabbe can improve on harris can to. all the things we can do to help crabbe we can do to help harris too.

harris is basically the same guy only 18 million cheaper. it was a bad trade.

[Prokorov]

^Should we not be worried? Not even a little bit?

Just find it hilarious that for some reason we're the bad guys because we're not acting like we don't give a f, and have some concerns that could impact the team heavily down the line

I'm sorry I didn't know it was contagious. If Washington didn't match that offer sheet you two would be in the looney bin now.

Why are you even posting here? you admitted yourself you dont care. so why continue to make passive aggressive comments when you wont even reply when we completely prove everything you say to be innacurate? just to be a jerk?

[LKIRNets]

only he is not a good player. he is a role player. as we predicted, you get basically the same from harris for 18 million less. and can probably get the same from stauskus for 14 million less.

a bit of a better defender and rebounder. I still haven't given up on Crabbe. I think he's adjusting to new environment and role. He can't go long spurts w/o shooting, we do have to do a bit of a better job getting him in position like he was w/ that corner 3.

a bit of a better defender but still a negative one. the rebounding edge is extremely small and both get 90% of their uncontested.

the only thing Crabbe is really doing better at this juncture is shoot free throws. all the things crabbe can improve on harris can to. all the things we can do to help crabbe we can do to help harris too.

harris is basically the same guy only 18 million cheaper. it was a bad trade.

But Harris is trade bait. He's a goner by the winter.

As for Crabbe his shooting offscreen has improved. I still think it's early but that's a good sign.

[shakendfries]

Harris has to go because he’s our best bet at moving up for RJ Barrett
Crabbe has to go because he’s trash


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