Fool Me Twice: The Gordon Hayward Thread

[Rich4114]

Is there still no news on completing this with a s&t?

[vorbis]

Is there still no news on completing this with a s&t?

no official news of any kind on the whole acquisition, so I'm assuming everything is still being negotiated, with stretch waiving Batum being a "last resort" type option at this point.

[Teal25]

Indiana wanted Hayward for 4/100 and probably would have landed him if Ainge wasn't a greedy snake. We had to beat that offer to get him. If we can avoid the Batum stretch, I'm fine with the contract we gave him. We obviously weren't going to take on bad deals for picks like Mitch said he wanted to do (thanks MJ).

This makes it worse. Why do people keep repeating this like it’s good? Indiana had no way of getting him without a sign and trade and Scrooge excuse me Ainge was being himself and the Pacers walked away so why overpay 20 million?

Meanwhile Bogdan just signed for 4/72. 3/90 should’ve been the max that was offered to Hayward. I get it. Lamelo needs developed players but there was so many cheaper options we should’ve explored to keep our flexibility and draft position but hey we will finish 10th instead of 12th place.

[Soulcatcher33]

Boston Fan here. Hayward is a good player and he will make your team better and be a good example for your young players, I think he nets you an extra 5 wins. Short term this improves the team and long term I think it will be good for the development of some of your young players to play with someone like him, I understand the thoguht process in bringing him in, both in terms of bringing legitimacy to the organization by getting a big name to sign and for basketball reasons.

With that said,
A.
1. Miami 2 Milwaukee3 Brooklyn 4Boston 5Philly 6,Toronto, 7 Indy are all much better then your team going into the season, injuries happen and you are now on par with Orlando to chase the #8 seed.
B. Given next years draft and free agent class signing him was a horrible idea, you guys were obly a handful of wins better then the cavs and could have let your young guys played and perhaps gotten a top 5 pick in a loaded draft and had the cap room to sign 2 free agents.
C. By stretching Batum you lose cap space the next 2 years when you could have had a chance at some better free agents then GH, maybe they come maybe they don't but know his cap number is haunting you for 2 additional years.
D. The contract was an overpay in both years and dollars and GH is not a superstar. Giving a 30 year old a 4 year deal at at money really risky, forget the ankle becuase that is a freak accident not likley to occur but the minor injuries had started to add up and his recovery times were longer then expected. I don;t think getting swept in the 1st round is worth the opportunity cost.

Overally I think this was a very shortsighted move. I think it absolutely makes you better. but not at the right time. There is just not enough high end talent on the roster to make a move like this. I will be rooting for my KU kid Devone Grahm and Gordo to do well but I really think long term the team would have been better waiting a year to make a move like this given the opportunity to add better players next year.

Both the hand and ankle were basically bad luck. With the hand he got his finger stuck in Aldridge's jersey and that's what caused the break in the collission...as that was where the break was...basically right above his finger. He didn't even miss a month so that wasn't even that big of a deal. The ankle sprain in the playoffs would have happened to anyone who landed on someone else's foot like that. That it was Hayward is why everyone made such a big deal about it. Anybody would have been injured by that, though.
Not sure what you are talking about with recovery times longer than expected when he came back earlier than expected from the hand and the ankle. Frankly, he shouldn't have even been able to come back from a grade 3 ankle sprain that quickly. It really shouldn't be surprising he wasn't in anyway effective when he did return. The one thing to worry about is the nerve pain he was feeling in his foot from the 2017 injury. That's something that can bother you forever.

As I've said before, with an offense built around him and him as the main option, health permitting, he should be able to get back similar to his 2017 numbers. The explosion he had from the Jazz era is gone, period, but he's a better shooter now. He gets to his spots and gets the shots he wants off the dribble even if he doesn't get to the rim/line anymore much. I could seem putting up 20-22ppg, 6rpg, 5apg on good efficiency while playing his usual solid defense. I said all season long that I thought he was the better and more polished offensive player than Brown, but Brown basically was always looking for his shot while Hayward was basically looking for the best shot for the team. For all this talk about Hayward as the "4th option" he was the guy after Tatum with the highest +/- on the team and the teams best 5 man line up included him in it.

[BeesWax]

I think making a move like this was a year too early. This screams Jordan scrambling to move up to a borderline playoff team. We will be in the thick of it for the last playoff spot and the right to get swept out of the playoffs now.

[MasterIchiro]

I think making a move like this was a year too early. This screams Jordan scrambling to move up to a borderline playoff team. We will be in the thick of it for the last playoff spot and the right to get swept out of the playoffs now.

Nobody doubts a first round exit is our fate. What makes this different than the Big Al deal are two factors. First Big Al's game was moving in the opposite direction of the league as NBA was already beginning to shift from post offense to perimeter play whereas Hayward's perimeter play bolstered by playmaking is a hot commodity aligned with the direction of the NBA game. Second, when Big Al was signed our draft picks were worse whereas Kupchak has stockpiled picks with significant upside - Graham, PJ, LaMelo, possibly Monk. We're going to age better with Hayward than we did with Al and we're going to build on our first round knockout as our prospects improve under JB. We were a treadmill team last time we reached early for a free agent and blew up our rebuild. I just can't see it that way this time so I'm optimistic.

Additionally, I love our GM and his team of scouts picking inside or outside the lottery, in the second round vs. Cho. I love JB's vision for the modern game vs. Clifford. And I love LaMelo Ball as the quarterback of a rebuilding team that continues to win.

[yazfan]

Hayward fan here, now a Hornets fan

Live in Indy, followed and watched Hayward almost every game from Butler --> Jazz --> Celtics.

4/120 - I want Haywards Agent. His 1st 2 contracts were Max deal I never thought he would get. The man can sell himself. This is an NBA issue, kudos to the man.
All-Star - He will be fringe all-star, like last year of Jazz. If he makes it, it will be barely.

What a lot of people do not realize as he was 4th option in Boston, that was not his choice.

Name me 1 other all-star (even PG13), that after injury did not get his role back. None. just Hayward. I realize Tatum and Brown are up and comers but that is a d&ck move by Celtics. He has the talent. Hayward did not whine about, just cashed his check and played his role given. That is a Boston issue,not Hayward talent issue. Boston has 0 offense. It is alley ball, go take yours now offense. Hayward will ALWAYS make the right bball play, sometimes even forgetting he is the star.

Boston paid for him to "heal". Hornets, IMO, will be getting the fringe All-Star back that he was in Utah, especially if you let him be a top option as he deserves to be.

Hopefully Ainge does not ask for too much for a S&T like he always does. No one likes to deal with a Win-Lose deal maker.


I have no ill-will to Boston, they were mostly great to Hayward, even when he left.

Jazz on the other hand, I never saw such a buch of a holes as fans. They still are not over Hayward leaving.
They are mad he finished his contract and left as a UFA. They would rather he demanded a trade 1 year earlier. Morons.

Bottom line - fringe all-star, team player, worth 4/120? I guess the answer is yes as he got it

[JMAC3]

Essentially there are 5 types of deals in the NBA in my mind

1. Rookie Deals- super valuable (5-10 million range). Ex: PJ and Ball
2. Big deals/Max Deals for players coming off their rookie deals (18-25 million typically) usually a good value ex: Tatum, Fox, Mitchell
3. Massive deals for guys who are on their 3rd contract after these first two (Typically 25-40 million) Most of these are bad values unless you are a top 10 NBA Player- but you have to sign them anyways because teams have restricted rights on the true NBA stars on their 2nd contracts. ex: Wall, Love, Hayward, Lebron, Blake, Steph, Westbrook
4. MLE Deals These are deals that good role players get, but aren't good enough for 20+ Million. Ex: Favors, Morris, Harrell
5. Vet Minimum Deals- These are used for vets chasing rings or guys just to fill out roster, sometimes can be good but mostly not. Ex: Howard, Biz

Here are how it breaks down for Hornets
1. Lamelo, PJ, Bridges, Graham, Martin Twins, Mcdaniels, Richards, Carey, Riller
2. Zeller and Rozier
3. Batum and Hayward
4. None yet
5. Biz

Circling back to Hayward- it kind of is what is. He is too good to be paid MLE so he is going to fall into Group 3 at this point in his career. In order to get these type of guys you typically end up overpaying, but it can still be worth it if they are able to outproduce MLE level guys and also don't get into the 40 million dollar range (which is almost impossible to be worth your contract).

[James Gatz]

Essentially there are 5 types of deals in the NBA in my mind

1. Rookie Deals- super valuable (5-10 million range). Ex: PJ and Ball
2. Big deals/Max Deals for players coming off their rookie deals (18-25 million typically) usually a good value ex: Tatum, Fox, Mitchell
3. Massive deals for guys who are on their 3rd contract after these first two (Typically 25-40 million) Most of these are bad values unless you are a top 10 NBA Player- but you have to sign them anyways because teams have restricted rights on the true NBA stars on their 2nd contracts. ex: Wall, Love, Hayward, Lebron, Blake, Steph, Westbrook
4. MLE Deals These are deals that good role players get, but aren't good enough for 20+ Million. Ex: Favors, Morris, Harrell
5. Vet Minimum Deals- These are used for vets chasing rings or guys just to fill out roster, sometimes can be good but mostly not. Ex: Howard, Biz

Here are how it breaks down for Hornets
1. Lamelo, PJ, Bridges, Graham, Martin Twins, Mcdaniels, Richards, Carey, Riller
2. Zeller and Rozier
3. Batum and Hayward
4. None yet
5. Biz

Circling back to Hayward- it kind of is what is. He is too good to be paid MLE so he is going to fall into Group 3 at this point in his career. In order to get these type of guys you typically end up overpaying, but it can still be worth it if they are able to outproduce MLE level guys and also don't get into the 40 million dollar range (which is almost impossible to be worth your contract).

Another excellent breakdown JMAC! I'd argue that Section 2 is not universally a good deal. Look at MKG, Zeller, etc. Often teams overpay their rookies who aren't max guys for fear of losing them. I'd say it's more 50/50.

Like many others my issue is less the contract, we'd have to overpay any FA, but the timing. We're not making the playoffs yet the most productive year of Haywards deal will likely be next year.

[amcoolio]

Hayward had flashes where he was back to his old self but couldn't stay healthy with nagging injuries

We just have to pray he stays healthy, then he is worth the contract. But that's a huge ask.

[BigSlam]

Essentially there are 5 types of deals in the NBA in my mind...

Have you ever heard me bang on about my solution to the league wide salary cap issue (because if you are allowed to go over them then "salary caps" are a joke IMO) and how it could also fix the parity issue that I have been harping for years?

It's based on creating player tiers that are associated to salary brackets that all teams have and have to fit players into accordingly.

It's not dissimilar to what you have laid out above.

Anyways, back to Gorddddddddddddddooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!

[amcoolio]

Zach Lowe just said the Pacers were offering in the 104-110 range for Hayward, but the Celtics were stalling and didn't want Myles Turner

Makes me feel a little bit better

[yosemiteben]

In today's edition of Bonnell knows nothing:

Read on Twitter

[LofJ]

I bet Zeller is ecstatic that Hayward is on the team. The Indiana Hornet brothers! I also still have a sneaking feeling (or wishful thinking) that the plan is to trade Hayward to the Pacers for Turner and Lamb.

[JMAC3]

I bet Zeller is ecstatic that Hayward is on the team. The Indiana Hornet brothers! I also still have a sneaking feeling (or wishful thinking) that the plan is to trade Hayward to the Pacers for Turner and Lamb.

We can't trade Hayward for at least 6 months I believe.... this seems like one of those things that gets mentioned so much on the board that in a year people have manufactured it into a fact that we had an offer in place.

One Conspiracy I could see being true, is Ainge is refusing to take back Rozier or Zeller without us giving him a first round pick, Bridges or PJ. (Examples: Wanted 6th pick and Reddish from Atlanta, Wanted Turner and Oladipo from Indiana). I would rather just eat the dead cap then give up any of those assets in essentially a salary dump.

One thing it is certain in my mind is that the longer the sign-trade takes the less chance it will happen simply because we need a team with cap space to help facilitate the deal and right now Knicks, Hawks and Kings are not going to wait forever to spend their last few dollars.

[predators]

Looking at the estimated numbers he might be actually better value than resigning Kemba for what the Celtics did. I'm admittedly pretty scared of what 34 year old hayward looks like.

Looking at the top salaries for the next season, If I'm a prospective nba player I'm calling up whoever Otto Porter's agent is. Though I suspect Batum's contract might have been responsible for that.

[vtime]

Good move for several reasons.

1. Melo ball is going to garner a national audience and it was going to embarrassing to put him out there with the current core in those games.

2. You have a decent season with Hayward and show some growth and you will still have plenty of cap space in 2021 to sign an impact SG or C, because now you have something to sell them on joining, an exciting young core and an establish 20ppg player in Hayward.

3. The guy you tanked for in 2021 might’ve taken another 4 years to develop just like the guy you could draft toward the back of the lottery. You can draft high and still end up unfortunately with a Cody Zeller type.

[Liver_Pooty]

Both Boston and Indiana were offering 100+ million over 4 years. Not as much as we were, but we have to overpay regardless. And people on here acting like he would have gotten 15 per from another team. Lol.

[Chapelchilla]

Indiana wanted Hayward for 4/100 and probably would have landed him if Ainge wasn't a greedy snake. We had to beat that offer to get him. If we can avoid the Batum stretch, I'm fine with the contract we gave him. We obviously weren't going to take on bad deals for picks like Mitch said he wanted to do (thanks MJ).

This makes it worse. Why do people keep repeating this like it’s good? Indiana had no way of getting him without a sign and trade and Scrooge excuse me Ainge was being himself and the Pacers walked away so why overpay 20 million?

Meanwhile Bogdan just signed for 4/72. 3/90 should’ve been the max that was offered to Hayward. I get it. Lamelo needs developed players but there was so many cheaper options we should’ve explored to keep our flexibility and draft position but hey we will finish 10th instead of 12th place.

According to the front page of Real GM, both Boston and Indiana were offering Hayward in the 108 to 110 range. His market was a lot higher then 3/90. If bogdan's market vs worth was better then 4/72 the Kings would be working hard to find a way to match the offer sheet. W will see....

[LofJ]

John Hollinger expects the Celtics to cough up a draft asset to give us incentive to complete a sign and trade.