People who don't have Jordan as GOAT: What metric(s) would make you change your mind?

[OhayoKD]

Yeah, you're just being dishonest imo. Good day.

You should stop judging other posters honesty and focus on actual arguments instead...

The argument is dishonest in my opinion. So I choose not to focus on it but instead call it what it is.

dishonest arguments are exposed as dishonest by noting internal inconsistencies within the argument or set of arguments made by a poster.

I don't think you're going to get much via "calling what it is" unless you perform the aforementioned step which is contigent on "focusing on it"

[falcolombardi]

At the end of the day pippen could lift a bench unit better than kyrie or love. Because he was a smarter player at leading a offense and his defensive impact held better under the heavy load of a first option role than kyrie or love theorically superior offense skillset did

Is not like pre lebron kyrie was playing in this completely different way before lebron. He was still isolating a ton and looking to score whether it was with lebron on or off the floor. Before and after him

[homecourtloss]

Well to be fair Love was never allowed to actually play to his strengths so of course his effectiveness and impact, in general, had dropped. Pair Love with a Michael Jordan, or Kobe Bryant, and he becomes much more effective and consistent as he's allowed to work in the post. Those guys have the mid range and off ball skills thay Love in the post won't hinder them the way it does Lebron.

You’ve ignored data posted before so not sure why I’m doing this, but the narrative that “Love became a spot up shooter and didn’t get to use his strengths such as working in the post” is false.

First of all, Love helping with spacing created two of the greatest playoff offenses of all time. Now, whatever you think “maximizing loves strengths” entails, it’s highly unlikely that this “maximizing” will create the greatest playoff offices in NBA history.

Secondly, Love DID get plenty of post touches but he was highly ineffective there. Why would the Cavs continue to use him in the post when he didn’t produce any results but as a spot up shooter, he helped create an all-time offense?

Love had the 6th most post possessions in 2018 and was bottom 31% in points per possession (PPP)
Love had the 7th most post possessions in 2017 and was top 33% in PPP
Love had the 7th most post possessions in 2016 and was bottom 44% in PPP

Love was bottom 38% in spot up PPP in 2018
Love was top top 33% in spot up PPP in 2017
Love was top 23% in spot up PPP in 2016

In 2018, he was in the top 21% in post up points per possession (PPP) in the regular season, but in the playoffs, he was bottom 30% on 4.2 post up possessions per game (6th most in the playoffs). It’s always funny to me when people say “He was turned into a spot up shooter” when his spot up shooting is infinitely better than what ANY player could provide from the post AND he was getting plenty of post up opportunities but wasn’t scoring. The Cavs created two top 5 playoffs offenses ever using him to space the floor and shoot.

2018 post up points per possession: .98 (top 21%), 4.2 possessions per game
2018 playoffs post up points per possession: .80 (bottom 31%), 4.2 possessions per game 6th most in the playoffs]
2018 spot up points per possession: 1.27 (top 4%), 3.7 possessions per game. Cavs should have had him spot up more, not less.
2018 playoffs spot up points per possession: 1.00 (bottom 38%), 4.0 possessions per game [missed wide open shots all playoffs]

2017 post up points per possession: .87 (bottom 45%), 4.3 possessions per game
2017 playoffs post up points per possession: .98 (top 33%), 3.1 possessions per game 7th most in the playoffs]
2017 spot up points per possession: 1.19 (top 10%), 4.3 possessions per game
2017 playoffs spot up points per possession: 1.15 (top 33%), 4.5possessions per game

Notice that in 2017, a top 33% post up PPP would be a BOTTOM 40% spot up PPP.

2016 post up points per possession: .98 (top 17%), 4 possessions per game
2016 playoffs post up points per possession: .81 (bottom 44%), 4.3 possessions per game 7th most in the NBA]
2016 spot up points per possession: 1.06 (top 23%), 4.3 possessions per game
2016 playoffs spot up points per possession: 1.18 (top 23%), 4.7 possessions per game

[falcolombardi]

Well to be fair Love was never allowed to actually play to his strengths so of course his effectiveness and impact, in general, had dropped. Pair Love with a Michael Jordan, or Kobe Bryant, and he becomes much more effective and consistent as he's allowed to work in the post. Those guys have the mid range and off ball skills thay Love in the post won't hinder them the way it does Lebron.

You’ve ignored data posted before so not sure why I’m doing this, but the narrative that “Love became a spot up shooter and didn’t get to use his strengths such as working in the post” is false.

First of all, Love helping with spacing created two of the greatest playoff offenses of all time. Now, whatever you think “maximizing loves strengths” entails, it’s highly unlikely that this “maximizing” will create the greatest playoff offices in NBA history.

Secondly, Love DID get plenty of post touches but he was highly ineffective there. Why would the Cavs continue to use him in the post when he didn’t produce any results?

In 2018, he was in the top 21% in post up points per possession (PPP) in the regular season, but in the playoffs, he was bottom 30% on 4.2 post up possessions per game (6th most in the playoffs). It’s always funny to me when people say “He was turned into a spot up shooter” when his spot up shooting is infinitely better than what ANY player could provide from the post AND he was getting plenty of post up opportunities but wasn’t scoring. The Cavs created two top 5 playoffs offenses ever using him to space the floor and shoot.

2018 post up points per possession: .98 (top 21%), 4.2 possessions per game
2018 playoffs post up points per possession: .80 (bottom 31%), 4.2 possessions per game 6th most in the playoffs]
2018 spot up points per possession: 1.27 (top 4%), 3.7 possessions per game. Cavs should have had him spot up more, not less.
2018 playoffs spot up points per possession: 1.00 (bottom 38%), 4.0 possessions per game [missed wide open shots all playoffs]

2017 post up points per possession: .87 (bottom 45%), 4.3 possessions per game
2017 playoffs post up points per possession: .98 (top 33%), 3.1 possessions per game [7th most in the playoffs]
2017 spot up points per possession: 1.19 (top 10%), 4.3 possessions per game
2017 playoffs spot up points per possession: 1.15 (top 33%), 4.5possessions per game

Notice that in 2017, a top 33% post up PPP would be a BOTTOM 40% spot up PPP.

2016 post up points per possession: .98 (top 17%), 4 possessions per game
2016 playoffs post up points per possession: .81 (bottom 44%), 4.3 possessions per game 7th most in the NBA]
2016 spot up points per possession: 1.06 (top 23%), 4.3 possessions per game
2016 playoffs spot up points per possession: 1.18 (top 23%), 4.7 possessions per game

You must have posted this a literal thousand times by now and it still probably wont matter. The narrative that love was not allowed to isolate or post up in the cavs is too ingrained

At the end of the day minnesots love got to score a ton of points in a mediocre team as a first option. Toronto bosh got to score a lot of points in a mediocre team

Once they played with lebron they were part of truly grest teams and offenses but their ppg was lower. So that means lebron wasted them or didnt optimize them....because he didnt optimize their boxscore stats

Sonethingh similar happens to narrative of lebron ballhogging. He is not harden or luka. Like half of his points come off fastbreaks and cuts/lobs/putbacks

He doesnt run curls off ball for jumpers but that doesnt mean he does ball hog the way people make it sound like. Or that he doesnt do other thinghs when he doesnt have the ball

[LukaTheGOAT]

I've said this before, Love just wasn't a good fit on that Cleveland roster in the sense that having your 3 best players all be offensively oriented is going to create major redundancies, especially in the case of Love and Irving being 90% offense. Love's decline in production had little to do with his abilities or "Lebron-ball", having 3 offensively oriented players is just poor roster construction. Someone like Ibaka would've been vastly better in Love's role even though he's a worse player in a vacuum.

Even in an ideal case like the Warriors in 17, all their production declined a decent amount when KD joined and Klay also basically does nothing but shoot, Love's abilities were more expansive than that.

And in that sense, Grant is inarguably a better 3rd option in his context, (and almost certainly on the Cavs) than Love. But that doesn't necessarily make Grant a better player in isolation.

Yup, I think you could argue very easily this is more so the case, than anything else. Lebron gets criticized similarly for not being able to gel with Chris Bosh and minimizing his role, although it probably was more so that Bosh was a 3rd option, than anything else.

For example,

Chris Bosh as a first option on the Raptors (07-10)

▫️ 24.8 pts/75
▫️ +3.9 rTS%

Bosh as a 2nd option on the heat 11-14 (with wade OFF, but Bron ON)

▫️ 22.6 pts/75
▫️ +8.4 rTS%

The minutes with Wade off, but Bosh on was a 2197 minute sample, so not exactly an insignificant amount of time. Bosh when he was a 2nd option in Miami arguably put up better scoring numbers than he did as a #1 option in Toronto.

A continuation of my previous post...

I really wish people would clarify exactly, HOW MUCH, box-score production do they expect out of a 2nd/3rd option on offense (whenever they don't get to be the primary offensive piece), when they are paired up with other players. The bottom line is that there is only so much time of possession to go around, and box-score more often than not focuses on what happens when a player has the ball.

For example, Stephen Curry is considered the most portable/scalable player ever, and the point of my post isn't to disagree with this but rather to show how Steph being Steph can also lead to lower box-score production for teammates. In particular, rising star Jordan Poole...

Jordan Poole In Games Without Steph for the 2021/22:
▫️17 GP
▫️25.6 PPG
▫️4.7 RPG
▫️5.6 APG
▫️0.6 SPG
▫️43/39/97 splits
▫️59.5 TS%(+3.0 rTS%) -Keep in mind his rTS% on the season was 3.2%, so he basically kept the same efficiency.

Some highlights from his stretch towards the end of the season:

30 & 9 vs Miami on 77 TS%
38 & 7 vs PHX on 72 TS%
29 & 3 vs Boston on 66 TS%

He was destroying some of best defenses in the league as the primary during that stretch.


Jordan Poole for the season averaged 16.4 points, 3.5 assists and 3.1 rebounds in 59 games with Stephen Curry in 2021-22.

This isn't just an insignificant sample size either. For the entire 2022 season:

Regular season:
24.2 pts per100 w/ Steph on 62 TS%
34.5 pts per100 w/o Steph on 58 TS%

Playoffs:
23.7 pts Per100 w/ Steph on 67 TS%
40.4 pts Per100 w/o Steph on 64 TS%


And the crazy thing is, this was the case in the 20-21 season as well.

Jordan Poole averaged 22.0 points, 3.3 assists and 2.8 rebounds WITHOUT Stephen Curry in 2020-21 on 46.5/39.1/91.2 shooting.

Jordan Poole averaged 10.1 points, 1.7 assists and 1.6 rebounds WITH Stephen Curry in 2020-21 on 42/34/87.1 shooting.

Yet, no one would argue that Steph minimizes Jordan Poole to the point in which he should change his game so that Pool could collect more stats. Yet Steph being the most portable player ever, still doesn't negate the fact that he is the primary star and takes up time with the ball that prevents Poole from collecting prettier scoring numbers. Therefore, if Steph can't stop this effect, then I don't know why people so strongly believe that this shouldn't be the case with other stars.

My bigger question to those who believe that Love, or Bosh were unfairly shafted to the side is, what kind of production do you expect out of them? And perhaps, is it fair to expect more out of those guys considering them context.

[prolific passer]

Kyrie was the true definition of a scoring point guard which is why he needed somebody like Lebron with him to take care the assists for the team because he wasn't gonna do it.

[Homer38]

Well to be fair Love was never allowed to actually play to his strengths so of course his effectiveness and impact, in general, had dropped. Pair Love with a Michael Jordan, or Kobe Bryant, and he becomes much more effective and consistent as he's allowed to work in the post. Those guys have the mid range and off ball skills thay Love in the post won't hinder them the way it does Lebron.

You’ve ignored data posted before so not sure why I’m doing this, but the narrative that “Love became a spot up shooter and didn’t get to use his strengths such as working in the post” is false.

First of all, Love helping with spacing created two of the greatest playoff offenses of all time. Now, whatever you think “maximizing loves strengths” entails, it’s highly unlikely that this “maximizing” will create the greatest playoff offices in NBA history.

Secondly, Love DID get plenty of post touches but he was highly ineffective there. Why would the Cavs continue to use him in the post when he didn’t produce any results but as a spot up shooter, he helped create an all-time offense?

Love had the 6th most post possessions in 2018 and was bottom 31% in points per possession (PPP)
Love had the 7th most post possessions in 2017 and was top 33% in PPP
Love had the 7th most post possessions in 2016 and was bottom 44% in PPP

Love was bottom 38% in spot up PPP in 2018
Love was top top 33% in spot up PPP in 2017
Love was top 23% in spot up PPP in 2016

In 2018, he was in the top 21% in post up points per possession (PPP) in the regular season, but in the playoffs, he was bottom 30% on 4.2 post up possessions per game (6th most in the playoffs). It’s always funny to me when people say “He was turned into a spot up shooter” when his spot up shooting is infinitely better than what ANY player could provide from the post AND he was getting plenty of post up opportunities but wasn’t scoring. The Cavs created two top 5 playoffs offenses ever using him to space the floor and shoot.

2018 post up points per possession: .98 (top 21%), 4.2 possessions per game
2018 playoffs post up points per possession: .80 (bottom 31%), 4.2 possessions per game 6th most in the playoffs]
2018 spot up points per possession: 1.27 (top 4%), 3.7 possessions per game. Cavs should have had him spot up more, not less.
2018 playoffs spot up points per possession: 1.00 (bottom 38%), 4.0 possessions per game [missed wide open shots all playoffs]

2017 post up points per possession: .87 (bottom 45%), 4.3 possessions per game
2017 playoffs post up points per possession: .98 (top 33%), 3.1 possessions per game 7th most in the playoffs]
2017 spot up points per possession: 1.19 (top 10%), 4.3 possessions per game
2017 playoffs spot up points per possession: 1.15 (top 33%), 4.5possessions per game

Notice that in 2017, a top 33% post up PPP would be a BOTTOM 40% spot up PPP.

2016 post up points per possession: .98 (top 17%), 4 possessions per game
2016 playoffs post up points per possession: .81 (bottom 44%), 4.3 possessions per game 7th most in the NBA]
2016 spot up points per possession: 1.06 (top 23%), 4.3 possessions per game
2016 playoffs spot up points per possession: 1.18 (top 23%), 4.7 possessions per game

as always this post is ignored by him!!!!

[falcolombardi]

Well to be fair Love was never allowed to actually play to his strengths so of course his effectiveness and impact, in general, had dropped. Pair Love with a Michael Jordan, or Kobe Bryant, and he becomes much more effective and consistent as he's allowed to work in the post. Those guys have the mid range and off ball skills thay Love in the post won't hinder them the way it does Lebron.

You’ve ignored data posted before so not sure why I’m doing this, but the narrative that “Love became a spot up shooter and didn’t get to use his strengths such as working in the post” is false.

First of all, Love helping with spacing created two of the greatest playoff offenses of all time. Now, whatever you think “maximizing loves strengths” entails, it’s highly unlikely that this “maximizing” will create the greatest playoff offices in NBA history.

Secondly, Love DID get plenty of post touches but he was highly ineffective there. Why would the Cavs continue to use him in the post when he didn’t produce any results but as a spot up shooter, he helped create an all-time offense?

Love had the 6th most post possessions in 2018 and was bottom 31% in points per possession (PPP)
Love had the 7th most post possessions in 2017 and was top 33% in PPP
Love had the 7th most post possessions in 2016 and was bottom 44% in PPP

Love was bottom 38% in spot up PPP in 2018
Love was top top 33% in spot up PPP in 2017
Love was top 23% in spot up PPP in 2016

In 2018, he was in the top 21% in post up points per possession (PPP) in the regular season, but in the playoffs, he was bottom 30% on 4.2 post up possessions per game (6th most in the playoffs). It’s always funny to me when people say “He was turned into a spot up shooter” when his spot up shooting is infinitely better than what ANY player could provide from the post AND he was getting plenty of post up opportunities but wasn’t scoring. The Cavs created two top 5 playoffs offenses ever using him to space the floor and shoot.

2018 post up points per possession: .98 (top 21%), 4.2 possessions per game
2018 playoffs post up points per possession: .80 (bottom 31%), 4.2 possessions per game 6th most in the playoffs]
2018 spot up points per possession: 1.27 (top 4%), 3.7 possessions per game. Cavs should have had him spot up more, not less.
2018 playoffs spot up points per possession: 1.00 (bottom 38%), 4.0 possessions per game [missed wide open shots all playoffs]

2017 post up points per possession: .87 (bottom 45%), 4.3 possessions per game
2017 playoffs post up points per possession: .98 (top 33%), 3.1 possessions per game 7th most in the playoffs]
2017 spot up points per possession: 1.19 (top 10%), 4.3 possessions per game
2017 playoffs spot up points per possession: 1.15 (top 33%), 4.5possessions per game

Notice that in 2017, a top 33% post up PPP would be a BOTTOM 40% spot up PPP.

2016 post up points per possession: .98 (top 17%), 4 possessions per game
2016 playoffs post up points per possession: .81 (bottom 44%), 4.3 possessions per game 7th most in the NBA]
2016 spot up points per possession: 1.06 (top 23%), 4.3 possessions per game
2016 playoffs spot up points per possession: 1.18 (top 23%), 4.7 possessions per game

as always this post is ignored by him!!!!

I wish it was only one poster....there are some great posters here who still say the "love became a corner shooter only" and similar thinghs no matter how many times it gets corrected with data

[homecourtloss]

Well to be fair Love was never allowed to actually play to his strengths so of course his effectiveness and impact, in general, had dropped. Pair Love with a Michael Jordan, or Kobe Bryant, and he becomes much more effective and consistent as he's allowed to work in the post. Those guys have the mid range and off ball skills thay Love in the post won't hinder them the way it does Lebron.

You’ve ignored data posted before so not sure why I’m doing this, but the narrative that “Love became a spot up shooter and didn’t get to use his strengths such as working in the post” is false.

First of all, Love helping with spacing created two of the greatest playoff offenses of all time. Now, whatever you think “maximizing loves strengths” entails, it’s highly unlikely that this “maximizing” will create the greatest playoff offices in NBA history.

Secondly, Love DID get plenty of post touches but he was highly ineffective there. Why would the Cavs continue to use him in the post when he didn’t produce any results but as a spot up shooter, he helped create an all-time offense?

Love had the 6th most post possessions in 2018 and was bottom 31% in points per possession (PPP)
Love had the 7th most post possessions in 2017 and was top 33% in PPP
Love had the 7th most post possessions in 2016 and was bottom 44% in PPP

Love was bottom 38% in spot up PPP in 2018
Love was top top 33% in spot up PPP in 2017
Love was top 23% in spot up PPP in 2016

In 2018, he was in the top 21% in post up points per possession (PPP) in the regular season, but in the playoffs, he was bottom 30% on 4.2 post up possessions per game (6th most in the playoffs). It’s always funny to me when people say “He was turned into a spot up shooter” when his spot up shooting is infinitely better than what ANY player could provide from the post AND he was getting plenty of post up opportunities but wasn’t scoring. The Cavs created two top 5 playoffs offenses ever using him to space the floor and shoot.

2018 post up points per possession: .98 (top 21%), 4.2 possessions per game
2018 playoffs post up points per possession: .80 (bottom 31%), 4.2 possessions per game 6th most in the playoffs]
2018 spot up points per possession: 1.27 (top 4%), 3.7 possessions per game. Cavs should have had him spot up more, not less.
2018 playoffs spot up points per possession: 1.00 (bottom 38%), 4.0 possessions per game [missed wide open shots all playoffs]

2017 post up points per possession: .87 (bottom 45%), 4.3 possessions per game
2017 playoffs post up points per possession: .98 (top 33%), 3.1 possessions per game 7th most in the playoffs]
2017 spot up points per possession: 1.19 (top 10%), 4.3 possessions per game
2017 playoffs spot up points per possession: 1.15 (top 33%), 4.5possessions per game

Notice that in 2017, a top 33% post up PPP would be a BOTTOM 40% spot up PPP.

2016 post up points per possession: .98 (top 17%), 4 possessions per game
2016 playoffs post up points per possession: .81 (bottom 44%), 4.3 possessions per game 7th most in the NBA]
2016 spot up points per possession: 1.06 (top 23%), 4.3 possessions per game
2016 playoffs spot up points per possession: 1.18 (top 23%), 4.7 possessions per game

as always this post is ignored by him!!!!

Of course it is, just like every other data-driven post that goes against whatever narrative he believes.

[prolific passer]

Thanks to the 69 Lakers. Most people think when you put 3 20+ppg scorers together than they expect all 3 guys to continue to put up 20+ppg and for their team to dominate but it's not always the case.

[mysticOscar]

There's no point convincing them. They are in the minority. Majority of casuals and big nba fans have MJ as GOAT in modern era.

I get feeling a lot of the nay sayers are just doing it to go against the grain.

[AEnigma]

There's no point convincing them. They are in the minority. Majority of casuals and big nba fans have MJ as GOAT in modern era.

I get feeling a lot of the nay sayers are just doing it to go against the grain.

Just like people who refuse to acknowledge Allen Iverson as a top three player in 2001 are blatant haters and contrarians. Because the majority knows how awesome Iverson was.

The more Jordan/Kobe fans point to this type of logic, the more it exposes the superficiality of their stance.

[Stalwart]

Well to be fair Love was never allowed to actually play to his strengths so of course his effectiveness and impact, in general, had dropped. Pair Love with a Michael Jordan, or Kobe Bryant, and he becomes much more effective and consistent as he's allowed to work in the post. Those guys have the mid range and off ball skills thay Love in the post won't hinder them the way it does Lebron.

You’ve ignored data posted before so not sure why I’m doing this, but the narrative that “Love became a spot up shooter and didn’t get to use his strengths such as working in the post” is false.

First of all, Love helping with spacing created two of the greatest playoff offenses of all time. Now, whatever you think “maximizing loves strengths” entails, it’s highly unlikely that this “maximizing” will create the greatest playoff offices in NBA history.

Secondly, Love DID get plenty of post touches but he was highly ineffective there. Why would the Cavs continue to use him in the post when he didn’t produce any results but as a spot up shooter, he helped create an all-time offense?

Love had the 6th most post possessions in 2018 and was bottom 31% in points per possession (PPP)
Love had the 7th most post possessions in 2017 and was top 33% in PPP
Love had the 7th most post possessions in 2016 and was bottom 44% in PPP

Love was bottom 38% in spot up PPP in 2018
Love was top top 33% in spot up PPP in 2017
Love was top 23% in spot up PPP in 2016

In 2018, he was in the top 21% in post up points per possession (PPP) in the regular season, but in the playoffs, he was bottom 30% on 4.2 post up possessions per game (6th most in the playoffs). It’s always funny to me when people say “He was turned into a spot up shooter” when his spot up shooting is infinitely better than what ANY player could provide from the post AND he was getting plenty of post up opportunities but wasn’t scoring. The Cavs created two top 5 playoffs offenses ever using him to space the floor and shoot.

2018 post up points per possession: .98 (top 21%), 4.2 possessions per game
2018 playoffs post up points per possession: .80 (bottom 31%), 4.2 possessions per game 6th most in the playoffs]
2018 spot up points per possession: 1.27 (top 4%), 3.7 possessions per game. Cavs should have had him spot up more, not less.
2018 playoffs spot up points per possession: 1.00 (bottom 38%), 4.0 possessions per game [missed wide open shots all playoffs]

2017 post up points per possession: .87 (bottom 45%), 4.3 possessions per game
2017 playoffs post up points per possession: .98 (top 33%), 3.1 possessions per game 7th most in the playoffs]
2017 spot up points per possession: 1.19 (top 10%), 4.3 possessions per game
2017 playoffs spot up points per possession: 1.15 (top 33%), 4.5possessions per game

Notice that in 2017, a top 33% post up PPP would be a BOTTOM 40% spot up PPP.

2016 post up points per possession: .98 (top 17%), 4 possessions per game
2016 playoffs post up points per possession: .81 (bottom 44%), 4.3 possessions per game 7th most in the NBA]
2016 spot up points per possession: 1.06 (top 23%), 4.3 possessions per game
2016 playoffs spot up points per possession: 1.18 (top 23%), 4.7 possessions per game

Here is the problem with your post. It's not just about how many post up opportunities he was getting but what kind of post up opportunities. Getting possessions in the post isn't the same as being allowed to work in the post. The first thing is that Love was not getting consistent possessions in the post throughout the game. He got the most possessions in the first quarter and then a decreasing amount every quarter after that. By the 4th quarter he was largely relegated to spot up shooter.

There is also the issue of where he gets his post possessions. In Minnasota he worked best out of the high post where he can be used as both a scorer and a playmaker. The post possessions he recieved in Cleveland were far too often isolation posts on the low block where Lebron and others stand and watch him try to score.

So, Kevin Love was wasn't allowed to "work in the post" according to his strengths which drastically reduced his effectivenessand impact. He didn't get opportunities consistently throughout the game. He didn't get those opportunities in the right places on the floor. And wasn't utilized as a playmaker.

There is also the pick n roll. In Minnasota Love was most effective rolling to the hoop with Ricky Rubio. And thats what he did the vast majority of time. In Cleveland he was expected to roll out so that Lebron could get to the rim. And thats what he did the vast majority of the time. This lowers his impact, hinders his involvement, and limits his strengths.

The real question we need to ask is how come other players have to limit their own impact just so Lebron can maximize his? How come Lebron can't better adapt to others strengths while maintaining his impact? Gasol never had to limit himself playing with Kobe. Neither dud Shaq. Pippen didn't have to limit himself playing next to Jordan. Steph and KD didn't need to limit themselves. Parker & Ginobili didn't have to adjust to and limit themselves next to Tim Duncan.

[AEnigma]

Because Love is worse and more limited than all those players and was not being schemed for by a potential top five coach all-time. Glad I could sort that mystery out for you.

[Stalwart]

But DWade and Chris Bosh also had to limit their games...

Seems like a pattern.

[penbeast0]

IF you want to open a Kevin Love thread, go ahead. If not, let's go back to the OP topic.

[Stalwart]

Everyone just did a big pile on about how I won't address their points about Kevin Love. You didn't say anything to them.

Also the Kevin Love conversation is in relation to how he compares to Horace Grant which speaks to the topic of how much help MJ had. Were still talking about MJ.

[AEnigma]

So are you seriously asking why Pippen and Grant did not need to reduce their scoring loads as much as Wade and Bosh did? Just want to be clear.

[prolific passer]

Everyone just did a big pile on about how I won't address their points about Kevin Love. You didn't say anything to them.

Also the Kevin Love conversation is in relation to how he compares to Horace Grant which speaks to the topic of how much help MJ had. Were still talking about MJ.

All I know is that after 87. Krause passed on guys like Majerle, Kemp, Vlade, Mookie, Tim Hardaway, PJ Brown, and Michael Finley for guys like Will Perdue, Stacey King, BJ Armstrong, and Jason Caffey. Jordan was able to drag them to championships.

[tsherkin]

Jordan was able to drag them to championships.

Alongside Pippen, Paxson/Kerr, Ho Grant/Rodman and various other quality roleplayers.