DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 (FINAL poll reset)

[Dacost]

People frankly just don’t care about actually being on the court as much as they should.

I think JJJ is the most impactful per-minute defender in the NBA. But he’s played a total of 1088 minutes this season. 39.6% of the team’s possible minutes this year.

Compare that to a guy like Mobley who’s played 2016 minutes this season. Almost 1000 more minutes and near twice as many as JJJ. And the 5th most minutes in the league this year.

For one, it’s much harder to maintain the same defensive performance the more minutes you play. That’s not just due to the fact it wears you down over the course of the season and you can’t expend the same amount of energy, but also because variance is less of a statistical factor, so things such as opponent offensive efficiency can regress and you won’t have as extreme of values across defensive measures. Furthermore, for guys who don’t miss time who are also on teams with backups who can adequately replace them in lineups for short stints, you don’t give your team the chance to “miss you” and that’s reflected in the plus-minus data maybe not being as impressive.

But more importantly, you’re providing ZERO defensive value to your team when you’re not on the court. For a guy to play half as many minutes as other contenders (for MVP, DPOY, or any other award) and still win it, he would have to theoretically be so far ahead of the rest of the competition it’s not even funny.

I think it shows time and time again on this board that people really don’t value sample sizes or availability. Which is why you’ll see people extrapolating to per-36 minute figures often, dismissing the habit of missing significant time every season, and being willing to crown one guy better than another player based on the first 5 games of the season or a short playoff series.

First You have a point however I think guys shouldn't get punish just because of coaching styles.

Memphis starters average around 27/30 minutes a game is how they play even for Motant who leads the team in minutes per game is at 31 minutes a game.

Cavs starters for example play 34 minutes a game each (except Lavert who plays 32 a game).

Second the fact that Jackson is more impactful with 1000 less minutes just speaks volume and in my opinion just makes his case stronger.

DPOY is just that the best defense player is not the most durable defensive player.

[bisme37]

So Tristan Thompson has been on ESPN lately. I haven't particularly enjoyed his analysis but yesterday he was listing his top two-way players in the NBA. (Guys who play both ends, not guys on two-way contracts.) And he left Giannis off the list.

At first I was thinking, wth, Giannis is a DPOY and MVP so how is he not a top two-way player? But TT's reasoning was that Giannis only plays help defense from the weak side and never guards the best players straight up. And I came away kinda confused because that made sense to me lol.

Like, Giannis never guards Tatum or even Brown when the Celtics play the Bucks? And now I'm wondering... why doesn't he?

I don't even know why I'm typing this lol, but I thought it was interesting and I find myself still thinking about it. Any thoughts?

(His top two-way players were Kawhi, Durant, Tatum, Jrue, and I'm forgetting the 5th one right now.)

[nikster]

So Tristan Thompson has been on ESPN lately. I haven't particularly enjoyed his analysis but yesterday he was listing his top two-way players in the NBA. (Guys who play both ends, not guys on two-way contracts.) And he left Giannis off the list.

At first I was thinking, wth, Giannis is a DPOY and MVP so how is he not a top two-way player? But TT's reasoning was that Giannis only plays help defense from the weak side and never guards the best players straight up. And I came away kinda confused because that made sense to me lol.

Like, Giannis never guards Tatum or even Brown when the Celtics play the Bucks? And now I'm wondering... why doesn't he?

I don't even know why I'm typing this lol, but I thought it was interesting and I find myself still thinking about it. Any thoughts?

(His top two-way players were Kawhi, Durant, Tatum, Jrue, and I'm forgetting the 5th one right now.)

Bucks probably figure his impact on help defense outweighs his impact as a man defender, especially because they have solid options for wing defense. I agree it would be more interesting to see him try to guard these guys 1 on 1 sometimes, but their scheme makes sense.

TTs downplaying the importance of rim protection and over valuing one on one perimeter defense. He has Durant on there...there is no world in which Durant is a more impactful defender than Giannis. Big man have historically dominated DPOY voting because of the outsized impact their help and rim protection has, yet theres not a single big on his list. He's also left Embiid off.

As for these 2 way lists in general, I dont get how Jrue makes the list. Like he might be a bit more impactful than Giannis or Embiid defensively (debatable), but they are so much better offensively I would argue there is no question they are better 2 way players.

[CharityStripe34]

LOL @ Durant being a more impactful defender than Gianni.

Teams purposely run plays away from him (they attack Lopez in PNR) because he leads the league in guarding both the guard and big in High PNR (per Second Spectrum).

They use him as a "free-safety" help defender because if he's guarding a Tatum/Durant/Embiid/LeBron type, they're simply going to screen him away from the action and move the ball cross court.

[cupcakesnake]

Where is the option for Alex Caruso?

Who would you knock out of the current poll to replace with Caruso?

He's #1 in Defensive RAPTOR. I'm curious what the opinion is about that.

I actually like the idea of putting Caruso in the poll. I think he might be the best defensive guard in the NBA. Tons of metrics like him. He's #2 in D-EPM, #1 in D-RAPTOR, #5 in D-DARKO, #2 in DBPM, #43 in DWS. Chicago has a top-10 defensive rating, mostly due to being elite defensively whenever Caruso is on the floor. He leads them in every kind of on/off and the Bulls defend like the best defensive team in the NBA when he's on the floor. It's pretty insane considering Chicago does not really have other good defensive players (though Javonte Green, Patrick Williams, and Derrick Jones Jr are solid).

If catch-all metrics were DPOY votes, Caruso would be the DPOY. Most of us can't wrap our heads around the idea of a smaller guard carrying this kind of impact. Notice there isn't a single non-big in the poll right now. OG used to be in it, and I've thought about including Caruso or Jaden McDaniels. But again, I'm not sure who to drop off. Do people feel strongly that Caruso is a better defender than Draymond to Embiid? Feels crazy.

[cupcakesnake]

So Tristan Thompson has been on ESPN lately. I haven't particularly enjoyed his analysis but yesterday he was listing his top two-way players in the NBA. (Guys who play both ends, not guys on two-way contracts.) And he left Giannis off the list.

At first I was thinking, wth, Giannis is a DPOY and MVP so how is he not a top two-way player? But TT's reasoning was that Giannis only plays help defense from the weak side and never guards the best players straight up. And I came away kinda confused because that made sense to me lol.

Like, Giannis never guards Tatum or even Brown when the Celtics play the Bucks? And now I'm wondering... why doesn't he?

I don't even know why I'm typing this lol, but I thought it was interesting and I find myself still thinking about it. Any thoughts?

(His top two-way players were Kawhi, Durant, Tatum, Jrue, and I'm forgetting the 5th one right now.)

First off: whenever a former player is doing analysis, my first thought is always "what kind of player were they and how would their analysis reflect on their own value as a player?". Peak Tristan Thompson was a tweener big with excellent foot speed and a super strong lower body. He was a great matchup defender because you couldn't move him, and his feet were quick enough to stay in front of lots of players. He wasn't a amazing defender overall though (and couldn't really bring much value as a center) because he was kind of a zero as a help defender. He was a big who didn't protect the rim, so you needed another big next to him for him to have any defensive value.

I actually think Giannis' man-to-man defense isn't very good. I've said this in other threads: he gets to square on his man and leaves him self vulnerable to blow bys. I've never been like WOW you cant get past Giannis. I don't think he has amazing hip flexibility or great fundamentals on the perimeter in terms of his stance. (He's still good though because he's so giant and mobile). However, if you can keep Giannis anywhere near the paint, it's so hard for the opposing team to score. He's so mobile, so long, and so vertically explosive that almost no one is better at covering ground to help disrupt plays. The Bucks defense is always this horrible windmill of arms in the paint and most of that is Giannis.

Help defense has always been more important than match up defense and this has become increasingly common knowledge. Fans like the idea of stars going head to head, but defense is so much about how a unit of 5 guys move together. A player like Giannis bolsters that because all the gaps become smaller when he's around, and when gaps open up they close quicker. Milwaukee would 100% keep Giannis off Tatum of Brown, not because he's incapable of guarding them, but the more often he's guarding off-the ball, the more overall damage he can do.

[yoyoboy]

First You have a point however I think guys shouldn't get punish just because of coaching styles.

Memphis starters average around 27/30 minutes a game is how they play even for Motant who leads the team in minutes per game is at 31 minutes a game.

Cavs starters for example play 34 minutes a game each (except Lavert who plays 32 a game).

Second the fact that Jackson is more impactful with 1000 less minutes just speaks volume and in my opinion just makes his case stronger.

DPOY is just that the best defense player is not the most durable defensive player.

That’s the entire point though. He’s not. If you were to go off of cumulative defensive value on the season he wouldn’t be in the conversation. Because to play anywhere from 55% to 65% of the total minutes the other top defenders have played and still be more impactful on the whole, he’d theoretically need to be at least 50% more valuable on that end of the floor on a per-minute or possession basis compared to the other contenders. Which he just is not because that’s pretty much impossible to achieve.

And durability absolutely goes into the conversation because availability is THE most important ability in basketball. Nothing matters unless you’re on the court because it’s the only way you actually provide value. These awards are about holistic season performance.

Anthony Davis has played more minutes this season than JJJ for crying out loud, just to put into context how much time he’s missed. If people are being consistent, I better see him high up in their MVP rankings because when he’s actually played his performance has been better than all but maybe 5 or so guys in the league.

[bisme37]

So Tristan Thompson has been on ESPN lately. I haven't particularly enjoyed his analysis but yesterday he was listing his top two-way players in the NBA. (Guys who play both ends, not guys on two-way contracts.) And he left Giannis off the list.

At first I was thinking, wth, Giannis is a DPOY and MVP so how is he not a top two-way player? But TT's reasoning was that Giannis only plays help defense from the weak side and never guards the best players straight up. And I came away kinda confused because that made sense to me lol.

Like, Giannis never guards Tatum or even Brown when the Celtics play the Bucks? And now I'm wondering... why doesn't he?

I don't even know why I'm typing this lol, but I thought it was interesting and I find myself still thinking about it. Any thoughts?

(His top two-way players were Kawhi, Durant, Tatum, Jrue, and I'm forgetting the 5th one right now.)

First off: whenever a former player is doing analysis, my first thought is always "what kind of player were they and how would their analysis reflect on their own value as a player?". Peak Tristan Thompson was a tweener big with excellent foot speed and a super strong lower body. He was a great matchup defender because you couldn't move him, and his feet were quick enough to stay in front of lots of players. He wasn't a amazing defender overall though (and couldn't really bring much value as a center) because he was kind of a zero as a help defender. He was a big who didn't protect the rim, so you needed another big next to him for him to have any defensive value.

I actually think Giannis' man-to-man defense isn't very good. I've said this in other threads: he gets to square on his man and leaves him self vulnerable to blow bys. I've never been like WOW you cant get past Giannis. I don't think he has amazing hip flexibility or great fundamentals on the perimeter in terms of his stance. (He's still good though because he's so giant and mobile). However, if you can keep Giannis anywhere near the paint, it's so hard for the opposing team to score. He's so mobile, so long, and so vertically explosive that almost no one is better at covering ground to help disrupt plays. The Bucks defense is always this horrible windmill of arms in the paint and most of that is Giannis.

Help defense has always been more important than match up defense and this has become increasingly common knowledge. Fans like the idea of stars going head to head, but defense is so much about how a unit of 5 guys move together. A player like Giannis bolsters that because all the gaps become smaller when he's around, and when gaps open up they close quicker. Milwaukee would 100% keep Giannis off Tatum of Brown, not because he's incapable of guarding them, but the more often he's guarding off-the ball, the more overall damage he can do.

I've only seen TT in his new talking head role a few times but one thing that jumped out right away is he's biased toward his former teams and especially the players he's friends with. Seems to be a thing with a lot of the recent-players-turned-analysts and it's lame.

[Dacost]

First You have a point however I think guys shouldn't get punish just because of coaching styles.

Memphis starters average around 27/30 minutes a game is how they play even for Motant who leads the team in minutes per game is at 31 minutes a game.

Cavs starters for example play 34 minutes a game each (except Lavert who plays 32 a game).

Second the fact that Jackson is more impactful with 1000 less minutes just speaks volume and in my opinion just makes his case stronger.

DPOY is just that the best defense player is not the most durable defensive player.

That’s the entire point though. He’s not. If you were to go off of cumulative defensive value on the season he wouldn’t be in the conversation. Because to play anywhere from 55% to 65% of the total minutes the other top defenders have played and still be more impactful on the whole, he’d theoretically need to be at least 50% more valuable on that end of the floor on a per-minute or possession basis compared to the other contenders. Which he just is not because that’s pretty much impossible to achieve.

And durability absolutely goes into the conversation because availability is THE most important ability in basketball. Nothing matters unless you’re on the court because it’s the only way you actually provide value. These awards are about holistic season performance.

Anthony Davis has played more minutes this season than JJJ for crying out loud, just to put into context how much time he’s missed. If people are being consistent, I better see him high up in their MVP rankings because when he’s actually played his performance has been better than all but maybe 5 or so guys in the league.

I just don't like the minute argument.

Even though he is the best defensive player stats/impact and eye-test wise.We shouldn't give him the award because of minutes???

In my opinion awards should go to who the best player no the most durable or reliable Same with the allstars.

Jackson is just at the cut off when it comes to minutes need it to win the award.

[yoyoboy]

First You have a point however I think guys shouldn't get punish just because of coaching styles.

Memphis starters average around 27/30 minutes a game is how they play even for Motant who leads the team in minutes per game is at 31 minutes a game.

Cavs starters for example play 34 minutes a game each (except Lavert who plays 32 a game).

Second the fact that Jackson is more impactful with 1000 less minutes just speaks volume and in my opinion just makes his case stronger.

DPOY is just that the best defense player is not the most durable defensive player.

That’s the entire point though. He’s not. If you were to go off of cumulative defensive value on the season he wouldn’t be in the conversation. Because to play anywhere from 55% to 65% of the total minutes the other top defenders have played and still be more impactful on the whole, he’d theoretically need to be at least 50% more valuable on that end of the floor on a per-minute or possession basis compared to the other contenders. Which he just is not because that’s pretty much impossible to achieve.

And durability absolutely goes into the conversation because availability is THE most important ability in basketball. Nothing matters unless you’re on the court because it’s the only way you actually provide value. These awards are about holistic season performance.

Anthony Davis has played more minutes this season than JJJ for crying out loud, just to put into context how much time he’s missed. If people are being consistent, I better see him high up in their MVP rankings because when he’s actually played his performance has been better than all but maybe 5 or so guys in the league.

I just don't like the minute argument.

Even though he is the best defensive player stats/impact and eye-test wise.We shouldn't give him the award because of minutes???

In my opinion awards should go to who the best player no the most durable or reliable Same with the allstars.

Jackson is just at the cut off when it comes to minutes need it to win the award.

Disagree. So by your logic, Jokic - the frontrunner for the MVP right now - could miss the entire rest of the season, leaving him at 51 total games played, and because he was the best guy when he played, then he'd still deserve the award. He'd effectively benefit more from not even playing at all and Denver meanwhile dropping in the standings than playing every game but performing slightly below the level he has this year so far.

And it's actually comparable because if JJJ played in 23 of the remaining 25 games at his current 27.2 mpg, only then would he play as many total minutes this season as Jokic up until this point. Also, Jokic is dominating the advanced metrics compared to his competition to a greater degree than JJJ is the defensive metrics compared to his, so JJJ can afford the missed games even less.

[Dacost]

That’s the entire point though. He’s not. If you were to go off of cumulative defensive value on the season he wouldn’t be in the conversation. Because to play anywhere from 55% to 65% of the total minutes the other top defenders have played and still be more impactful on the whole, he’d theoretically need to be at least 50% more valuable on that end of the floor on a per-minute or possession basis compared to the other contenders. Which he just is not because that’s pretty much impossible to achieve.

And durability absolutely goes into the conversation because availability is THE most important ability in basketball. Nothing matters unless you’re on the court because it’s the only way you actually provide value. These awards are about holistic season performance.

Anthony Davis has played more minutes this season than JJJ for crying out loud, just to put into context how much time he’s missed. If people are being consistent, I better see him high up in their MVP rankings because when he’s actually played his performance has been better than all but maybe 5 or so guys in the league.

I just don't like the minute argument.

Even though he is the best defensive player stats/impact and eye-test wise.We shouldn't give him the award because of minutes???

In my opinion awards should go to who the best player no the most durable or reliable Same with the allstars.

Jackson is just at the cut off when it comes to minutes need it to win the award.

Disagree. So by your logic, Jokic - the frontrunner for the MVP right now - could miss the entire rest of the season, leaving him at 51 total games played, and because he was the best guy when he played, then he'd still deserve the award. He'd effectively benefit more from not even playing at all and Denver meanwhile dropping in the standings than playing every game but performing slightly below the level he has this year so far.

And it's actually comparable because if JJJ played in 23 of the remaining 25 games at his current 27.2 mpg, only then would he play as many total minutes this season as Jokic up until this point. Also, Jokic is dominating the advanced metrics compared to his competition to a greater degree than JJJ is the defensive metrics compared to his, so JJJ can afford the missed games even less.

Again JJJ is right at the cut off when it comes to minutes as long he finish up the season he is going to win it.

[eyeatoma]

Joel with a dpoy level performance today.

Sent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk

[GreatWhiteStiff]

Joel with a dpoy level performance Erryday.

Sent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk

FYPFY

[eyeatoma]

Joel with a dpoy level performance Erryday.

Sent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk

FYPFY

Lol you're going to have to explain what FYPFY means lol

[GreatWhiteStiff]

Joel with a dpoy level performance Erryday.

Sent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk

FYPFY

Lol you're going to have to explain what FYPFY means lol

Fix(ed) Your Post for you

[TheSheriff]

LOL @ Durant being a more impactful defender than Gianni.

Teams purposely run plays away from him (they attack Lopez in PNR) because he leads the league in guarding both the guard and big in High PNR (per Second Spectrum).

They use him as a "free-safety" help defender because if he's guarding a Tatum/Durant/Embiid/LeBron type, they're simply going to screen him away from the action and move the ball cross court.

Let’s be honest. They use him away from the best offensive players because they need him on offense.


There is nothing wrong with that. The Lakers did it with Kobe, who had great defensive ability, for years.

He is second in the NBA in offensive fouls, do really want him picking up more fouls on defense?

[CharityStripe34]

LOL @ Durant being a more impactful defender than Gianni.

Teams purposely run plays away from him (they attack Lopez in PNR) because he leads the league in guarding both the guard and big in High PNR (per Second Spectrum).

They use him as a "free-safety" help defender because if he's guarding a Tatum/Durant/Embiid/LeBron type, they're simply going to screen him away from the action and move the ball cross court.

Let’s be honest. They use him away from the best offensive players because they need him on offense.


There is nothing wrong with that. The Lakers did it with Kobe, who had great defensive ability, for years.

He is second in the NBA in offensive fouls, do really want him picking up more fouls on defense?

To be sure, they need his offense so they don't want to risk foul trouble.

[jimmybones]

So Tristan Thompson has been on ESPN lately. I haven't particularly enjoyed his analysis but yesterday he was listing his top two-way players in the NBA. (Guys who play both ends, not guys on two-way contracts.) And he left Giannis off the list.

At first I was thinking, wth, Giannis is a DPOY and MVP so how is he not a top two-way player? But TT's reasoning was that Giannis only plays help defense from the weak side and never guards the best players straight up. And I came away kinda confused because that made sense to me lol.

Like, Giannis never guards Tatum or even Brown when the Celtics play the Bucks? And now I'm wondering... why doesn't he?

I don't even know why I'm typing this lol, but I thought it was interesting and I find myself still thinking about it. Any thoughts?

(His top two-way players were Kawhi, Durant, Tatum, Jrue, and I'm forgetting the 5th one right now.)

Help defense is still defense

[Klomp]

Never enough Jaden in this thread.

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

[AussieBuck]

So Tristan Thompson has been on ESPN lately. I haven't particularly enjoyed his analysis but yesterday he was listing his top two-way players in the NBA. (Guys who play both ends, not guys on two-way contracts.) And he left Giannis off the list.

At first I was thinking, wth, Giannis is a DPOY and MVP so how is he not a top two-way player? But TT's reasoning was that Giannis only plays help defense from the weak side and never guards the best players straight up. And I came away kinda confused because that made sense to me lol.

Like, Giannis never guards Tatum or even Brown when the Celtics play the Bucks? And now I'm wondering... why doesn't he?

I don't even know why I'm typing this lol, but I thought it was interesting and I find myself still thinking about it. Any thoughts?

(His top two-way players were Kawhi, Durant, Tatum, Jrue, and I'm forgetting the 5th one right now.)

The highest value defensive role Giannis can play in the big starting lineup is to cover for Brook standing in the deep drop. If he's not there Brook is getting cooked by a lead guard coming at him at speed. Dude is great at what he does but he's comfortably the slowest rotation player getting around.

When Giannis isn't playing that role covering the corner and Brook's back he's playing C in himself, usually in a small ball lineup. Guarding any wing player would just lead to that team's coach having their guy taking Giannis out of the action.

The one time we were able to play him on a wing was the 2021 playoffs against Miami. The Heat had no lead guard threat and Brook was comfortable handling BAM back then on his own so we the opportunity to play Giannis on Butler. Maybe now we have Crowder he could spend a few minutes in the big lineup on a wing but it's unlikely to be the best use of his defensive impact.