Poll: Grade Ernie Grunfeld

[go'stags]

No, its not "clear" that Wall is behind them. Its "clear" that we have had 2 pre-season games after an extended off-season with no access to coaches or team facilities. Bulls fans were discouraged after the start Rose had to his second season, and look where he ended up.

[montestewart]

No, its not "clear" that Wall is behind them. Its "clear" that we have had 2 pre-season games after an extended off-season with no access to coaches or team facilities. Bulls fans were discouraged after the start Rose had to his second season, and look where he ended up.

It looks like the younger players' offseason training regimen was playing non-stop, shot jacking, no-D, highlight reel playground pickup games. They look in shape (except Blatche) but that's what you get without coaching and guidance. In that sense, some veteran teams might offset some of the disadvantage of their age during the compressed season merely by being better prepared.

[Zonkerbl]

No, its not "clear" that Wall is behind them. Its "clear" that we have had 2 pre-season games after an extended off-season with no access to coaches or team facilities. Bulls fans were discouraged after the start Rose had to his second season, and look where he ended up.

It looks like the younger players' offseason training regimen was playing non-stop, shot jacking, no-D, highlight reel playground pickup games. They look in shape (except Blatche) but that's what you get without coaching and guidance. In that sense, some veteran teams might offset some of the disadvantage of their age during the compressed season merely by being better prepared.

OMG that's it. That's exactly what it looks like, they're all playing street ball. Wall in particular jacked up some ugly, ugly shots yesterday.

[nate33]

If it blows up in our faces and it looks like Wall's gonna bolt, we trade him for a great package and hit the reset button, only with a lot more quality pieces starting off, as we already would have been in rebuild mode for a few years.

I'm starting to question what we could actually get for Wall. It's clear that he's not in the Rose/Westbrook class of impact PGs right out of the gate. I'd even put him behind the likes of Rondo and Curry at this point because at least those guys have discernable skills other than pure speed. Heck, Kyrie Irving might be a step ahead because he can actually shoot.

At some point him being a former #1 overall pick isn't going to drive Wall's value as much as his actual performance, and that's probably sooner rather than later. Him not being able to singlehandedly lift his team like a Derrick Rose did is definitely going to limit what teams are going to give up IMO.

Obviously the Wiz had to take him and I absolutely hope he develops into an All-Star caliber player. I'm just saying that I don't think he has true "number one, number one" value, so planning to reset everything with a bevy of picks in exchange for Wall isn't realistic IMO.

It's way too early to start getting all doomy and gloomy about Wall. We're talking about a guy who averaged 16.4 points, 8.3 assists and 4.6 boards and 1.8 steals a game as a 20-year-old rookie. No 20 year old in history has averaged 16 points, 8 assists and 4 rebounds. Post all-star break, he averaged 18.5 points, 7.4 assists and 5.2 rebounds.

I'm not at all worried. He had a couple of bad games with a team that hasn't really practiced offense yet. Big deal. He's still the same John Wall of last year but with an improved jumper. That alone should allow him to average around 20, 8 and 5 with better efficiency. That's basically Russell Westbrook numbers a year ahead of schedule.

[LyricalRico]

^ I wasn't basing that solely on preseason. Even last year, I wasn't always impressed. But his post ASG stats are definitely good and reason for optimism.

[go'stags]

No, its not "clear" that Wall is behind them. Its "clear" that we have had 2 pre-season games after an extended off-season with no access to coaches or team facilities. Bulls fans were discouraged after the start Rose had to his second season, and look where he ended up.

It looks like the younger players' offseason training regimen was playing non-stop, shot jacking, no-D, highlight reel playground pickup games. They look in shape (except Blatche) but that's what you get without coaching and guidance. In that sense, some veteran teams might offset some of the disadvantage of their age during the compressed season merely by being better prepared.

I agree. Hopefully that is Crawford's problem, although I'm not holding my breathe.

[llcc25]

I've given Grunfeld a pass the first few years but looking at the past 5 drafts and seeing that Wizards haven't improved, I think its time to evalaute Grunfeld has GM. I honestly feel we will be one of the 3 worst teams in NBA this year. And the biggest reason for this is how Grunfeld has built this team. Looking back at the past 5 years, here is my findings:

in 2005, he drafted O. Pecherov w/18th pick. We could've had Rondo or Milsap
in 2007, i won't fault him for Nick Young at 16. But he drafted D. McGwire at 47. We could've had M. Gasol.
in 2008, he drafted J. McGee at 18. We could've have JJ Hickson, N. Batum, S. Ibaka, or Deandre Jordan.
in 2009, we traded our 5th for Foye and Miller who both left team after 1 year..We could've had S. Curry. We also drafted someone by name of J. Taylor at 32. We couldve had D Blair, M. Thornton, or C. Budinger.
in 2010, we made the obvious pick of J. Wall
in 2011, we drafted, J. Vessely and C. Singleton-- jury is still out but my initial reaction from watching the preseason is that Vessely is more a project ala Pecherov. and Singleton although athletic - has no offense whatsoever ala D. Mcgwire. We should've traded both along w/anyone not named J wall for Minny's 2nd.

On an A to F scale, I honestly can't give him anything more than a D. Let me know what y'all think.

[7-Day Dray]

I've given Grunfeld a pass the first few years but looking at the past 5 drafts and seeing that Wizards haven't improved, I think its time to evalaute Grunfeld has GM. I honestly feel we will be one of the 3 worst teams in NBA this year. And the biggest reason for this is how Grunfeld has built this team. Looking back at the past 5 years, here is my findings:

in 2005, he drafted O. Pecherov w/18th pick. We could've had Rondo or Milsap
in 2007, i won't fault him for Nick Young at 16. But he drafted D. McGwire at 47. We could've had M. Gasol.
in 2008, he drafted J. McGee at 18. We could've have JJ Hickson, N. Batum, S. Ibaka, or Deandre Jordan.
in 2009, we traded our 5th for Foye and Miller who both left team after 1 year..We could've had S. Curry. We also drafted someone by name of J. Taylor at 32. We couldve had D Blair, M. Thornton, or C. Budinger.
in 2010, we made the obvious pick of J. Wall
in 2011, we drafted, J. Vessely and C. Singleton-- jury is still out but my initial reaction from watching the preseason is that Vessely is more a project ala Pecherov. and Singleton although athletic - has no offense whatsoever ala D. Mcgwire. We should've traded both along w/anyone not named J wall for Minny's 2nd.

On an A to F scale, I honestly can't give him anything more than a D. Let me know what y'all think.

Hindsight is 20/20. You're down on most of his picks now, but I bet you weren't as down when the pick were actually made. Let me analyze each year you talked about:

2006: I actually didn't like the Pecherov pick, just because I didn't know anything about him. But the two people you say we should've drafted - Rondo & Millsap, all had legitimate question marks. I didn't follow college ball back then like I do now, but I believe Rondo was raw in college. But I also heard that UK's coach didn't utilize his strengths and played him off the ball, so scouts didn't see what he could do if used right, which lowered his stock. And we had our "franchise" PG in Gil, so we didn't need to groom another future PG. And Millsap was very good in college, but was severely undersized.

2007: Marc Gasol was viewed as being significantly worse than Pau. He was overweight, and NO ONE knew he would become this good. At bet you weren't mad on draft day when we passed on him.

2008: Jury is still out on McGee. I view McGee higher than most people on this board, and he was a better choice than any of the guys you mentioned IMO. Hickson isn't very good, Batum is solid, but guys like him are a dime-a-dozen, I like Ibaka, but McGee provides the same things, and is an even rarer physical talent, and DJ is solid, but is even less skilled than McGee.

2009: I was not a fan of this trade from the start. For the Jermaine Taylor pick, stating who we passed on is moot, because we traded the pick for cash. But I don't think we should've, and we could've gotten a solid player in the 2nd.

2011: I believe we tried trading up for Minny's 2nd, but they wanted #6, #18, and our 2012 1st round pick. I wouldn't have given up all of that.

But you could pick apart any GMs drafting history if you use hindsight.

[llcc25]

i know hindsight is 20-20, but how else do you judge and evaluate the GM. granted if he missed on better players but we were winning, that's one thing...but he's consistently whiffed on the draft the past few years (not including Wall which was a no-brainer).

[montestewart]

Stockton, Malone, Drexler chosen mid-1st or later. Rodman, Arenas, Boozer, Redd, Mark Price chosen in 2nd round. Good players get missed, sometimes by everyone. Everybody passed on Blair at least once. I'm not much of an EG fan, but other than trading the #5 pick, which in hindsight is a pretty miserable deal, the others are a mixed bag of longshots, obvious pciks, best-player-available, and hopefully-best-for-team-needs picks. Haven't panned out so well, but on their face don't seem so different from other teams that panned out better. I didn't like the way the old team was constructed, but others have argued that Pollin was pulling the strings there. I basically liked the way EG deconstructed that old team. Now I'm just waiting to see if he can show he's the one to reconstruct a good team around Wall. I think he plays it safe too much and loses out on big moves, but jury's still out, says George M.S. Bush

[Ruzious]

I've given Grunfeld a pass the first few years but looking at the past 5 drafts and seeing that Wizards haven't improved, I think its time to evalaute Grunfeld has GM. I honestly feel we will be one of the 3 worst teams in NBA this year. And the biggest reason for this is how Grunfeld has built this team. Looking back at the past 5 years, here is my findings:

in 2005, he drafted O. Pecherov w/18th pick. We could've had Rondo or Milsap
in 2007, i won't fault him for Nick Young at 16. But he drafted D. McGwire at 47. We could've had M. Gasol.
in 2008, he drafted J. McGee at 18. We could've have JJ Hickson, N. Batum, S. Ibaka, or Deandre Jordan.
in 2009, we traded our 5th for Foye and Miller who both left team after 1 year..We could've had S. Curry. We also drafted someone by name of J. Taylor at 32. We couldve had D Blair, M. Thornton, or C. Budinger.
in 2010, we made the obvious pick of J. Wall
in 2011, we drafted, J. Vessely and C. Singleton-- jury is still out but my initial reaction from watching the preseason is that Vessely is more a project ala Pecherov. and Singleton although athletic - has no offense whatsoever ala D. Mcgwire. We should've traded both along w/anyone not named J wall for Minny's 2nd.

On an A to F scale, I honestly can't give him anything more than a D. Let me know what y'all think.

That's a very fair analysis. Really, the only pick I give him a hearty pat on the back for is McGee. Honestly, I think half of the posters could have done as well - or better - perhaps significantly better. His only saving grace is that most of the posters here panned the McGee pick.

I expect more from a GM. Ernie is a smart guy - good at tactics - not good at coming up with an overall strategy - and too often falling short. He's competent but not good enough.

[no D in Hibachi]

I don't see anyway you can say Vesely is a comparable prospect to Pecherov, or more of a project, unless your arguement is he has immensely more projection than Pecherov. Vesely is longer, amazingly more athletic, hustles more, is faster, quicker, more explosive, and mixes it up inside more often than Pecherov. Pecherov had no skills at all, the only thing he even tried to do was shoot 3's and he was awful at it. Even if Jan does nothing but fill the lane and dunk he'd be more valuable than Pecherov without question.

[WizarDynasty]

if i were leonsis, i would spend night and day trying to get Jerry Sloan to come here. A coach that commands respect from his players and has a track record of quickly improving basketball iq and discipline of low basketball iq players.

[closg00]

I don't see anyway you can say Vesely is a comparable prospect to Pecherov, or more of a project, unless your arguement is he has immensely more projection than Pecherov. Vesely is longer, amazingly more athletic, hustles more, is faster, quicker, more explosive, and mixes it up inside more often than Pecherov. Pecherov had no skills at all, the only thing he even tried to do was shoot 3's and he was awful at it. Even if Jan does nothing but fill the lane and dunk he'd be more valuable than Pecherov without question.

That's fine, but we didn't need to use a 6th pick for that^

[no D in Hibachi]

^^
Thats not my argument. I was arguing the pro-potential of Vesely/Pecherov, which isn't even a debate to merit further discussion.

The jury is still out on Jan. Either he was picked way too early or way too late. Suppose he played at Kentucky last year and everyone saw his game all year. Either he'd have been picked top 2 or picked #30 (Same could be said of Kanter). His physical ability and talents are intriguing enough that it justified his selection when there was NO ONE available with substantially more talent/upside.

A lot depends on your draft preference. When there is no sure thing stud available do you take the high upside/high bust % player, or lower upside/more sure to be at least average NBA player? Vesely has tremendous upside and if given two years to develop his skills/body could be a real force at PF (I don't think he's a SF in the NBA). One way or another EG part 2 will be judged primarily on whether this pick was a success.

[Ruzious]

if i were leonsis, i would spend night and day trying to get Jerry Sloan to come here. A coach that commands respect from his players and has a track record of quickly improving basketball iq and discipline of low basketball iq players.

He'll turn 70 years old this season, and I don't think he's the kind of person that's going to relate well at all to the personalities on the Wiz.

Btw, what low BBIQ players has he turned around?

[llcc25]

maybe comparing vesley to pecherov was bit harsh, but at the 6th pick, i'd rather have more of a sure thing than a athletic euro prospect who has no go to offensive game...he is high energy, hustle and can run the floor, but is very much a long term project. i think for a late round/2nd round pick this is ok. seeing guys like kemba walker and fredette already ball it in their 1st two preseaon games makes me wonder...i know we have wall, but at end of day i want players who have high basketball IQ and can put the ball in the hoop. i'll sacrifice athleticism for bball iq and baskets any day...

[WizarDynasty]

well give him an offer he can't refuse to work a few days a month as an consultant from his house. Would increase the value of the franchise by millions as having a steady proven basketball mind guiding from a far. All Leonsis would need is for Sloan to be his personal advisor and work from home a day or two every month.
Sloan advise would be invaluabe because wizards coaching staff has hit its peak as far as knowing how to transform a low bbig and undiscipline team into a contender.
Wall has an extremely low basketball iq and you can't lead a basketball team if your basketball iq is low. Flip seems to be seriously lacking in his ability to get his players to sprint to spots on the floor both offensively and defensively and they all play flatfooted.
There is no way sloan would have allowed for this culture to continue which is why the Wizards will be forever stuck in a state of mediocrity.
the only way i would feel confident with john wall was if he had someone like Jason Kidd to mentor which wasn't his focus this summer. Instead he is playing low bbiq rec ball.

[WizarDynasty]

^^
Thats not my argument. I was arguing the pro-potential of Vesely/Pecherov, which isn't even a debate to merit further discussion.

The jury is still out on Jan. Either he was picked way too early or way too late. Suppose he played at Kentucky last year and everyone saw his game all year. Either he'd have been picked top 2 or picked #30 (Same could be said of Kanter). His physical ability and talents are intriguing enough that it justified his selection when there was NO ONE available with substantially more talent/upside.

A lot depends on your draft preference. When there is no sure thing stud available do you take the high upside/high bust % player, or lower upside/more sure to be at least average NBA player? Vesely has tremendous upside and if given two years to develop his skills/body could be a real force at PF (I don't think he's a SF in the NBA). One way or another EG part 2 will be judged primarily on whether this pick was a success.

Yeah Vesely has far more small forward skills that booker and he is also 7 feet tall and doesn't back down from physical contact, rebounds in traffic. Can guard out on the perimeter and ten's times better form on his shot that booker. Also Vesely actually defensive instincts when guarding out on the perimeter and can pass. I am not worried about Vesely at all.

[Ruzious]

If Vesely has better form than Ray Allen on his jumper; does it matter - when his shots make dents on the front of the rim? Are there any effective 3's in the NBA who can't shoot?