Discussing Other Teams' Moves

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Bickerstaff, that could be it, but Paul to the Lakers doesn't make the Heat NOT a super team. LAL has a new coach and Kobe will be almost-34 when the playoffs conclude. I don't think Paul to LAL makes them a super team. Pau made the Lakers great when added with Kobe. CP3 with Kobe will be a bit of redundancy. They are high-usage guys who each need the ball to be great.

If it were simply a move to stop another super team, i don't think they needed to do it.

[dangermouse]

That deal was friggin terrible for the Hornets. I cant believe someone would actually think it was good. They were taking on the Rockets and Lakers trash and giving up their superstar. Wheres the salary relief? Wheres the picks/prospects? If i was a Hornets fan i would have been outraged.

It was even more of a Laker-rape than the original Pau trade. At least the Grizz got Marc back in that deal, who granted many didnt think much of at the time, but he was a damn good C prospect who has now proved his worth.

The only other way the Lakers could have raped them any further would be if they left them alone in a hotel room in Colorado with Kobe Bryant, a six pack of champagne and a looped track of Patty Smyth's "Sometime's Love Just Ain't Enough".

People keep posting "OMG now CP3 will NEVA BE TRADERED!!!"

How about if the Lakers offered, you know, a good package? Lets start with Bynum + multiple picks, some of their younger players, take back or find a team for Okafor?

Young player(s)/Picks/Salary relief <--- I would say, when trading away a star player, a team would want back at least 2/3 of those.

That Lakers offer had NONE of those.

End rant.

[dangermouse]

^Some might even argue that Bynum instead of Pau going out would actually be even better for the Lakers, since both Paul and Bynum have knee issues. So not only is it fair(er) it could actually be better for both teams.

[badinage]

Can I just say? I love that the NBA overturned it.

Good.

If it sets a precedent, well -- even better.

I'm tired of players pulling S H I T like this.

I'm tired of teams like the Lakers poaching off stars like Paul.

In a healthy, balanced, profitable league you can have a low-key, hands-off commish.

We don't have that.

We have just the opposite. And that's why we need an iron-fisted, interventionist commish.

Good for David Stern.

Chris Paul seems like a nice guy, but F U C K him and what he wants.

[Illuminaire]

Badinage,

If your employer claimed the right to dictate where you lived, and found ways to legally prevent you from going to work at a rival company, how would you feel? Is that fair? Would the consumers of the product or service you generated have a right to tell you to F(&@ yourself for wanting to live and work in a different or better environment than you're in now?

[miller31time]

Badinage,

If your employer claimed the right to dictate where you lived, and found ways to legally prevent you from going to work at a rival company, how would you feel? Is that fair? Would the consumers of the product or service you generated have a right to tell you to F(&@ yourself for wanting to live and work in a different or better environment than you're in now?

The difference is that there is no "rival company". All 30 teams are under the umbrella of the NBA and the commish has the final say.

A more apt comparison (IMO) is working for a company, demanding a transfer to another branch and being told "no". Now, this employee can feel free to no longer work for the company but the company pays him so much, he should probably just leave well enough alone.

EDITED TO ADD: Also, the NBA currently owns the Hornets.

[badinage]

Correct.

Effectively, Chris Paul was denied a transfer to the Los Angeles office. He stays on with the New Orleans office.

Big deal.

He works for the NBA -- actually, quite literally, since the league owns the Hornets. But really, all players work for the NBA.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Paul is terrific and has been carrying a crappy team for years. He has conducted himself with class.

Teams can trade players whenever and wherever they see fit, unless the owner has agreed to no-trade conditions in a previously arranged contract. Owners like Dan Gilbert live off the fat they accumulate because of a super player. Then the WHINE and feel betrayed with that same player who made them RELEVANT and RICHER leaves because he became an UNRESTRICTED free agent.

This thing about players pulling crap and super teams just SUCKS. Any of you complaining about the players would quit your job for a better one before I can type REALGM, and I type pretty fast.

It is disgusting to me to see players treated like they have no rights and they don't make the same folks controlling them richer. After seven years with a team you guys who say he has no right to "transfer to a different division" need to experience the same CRAP.

After leaving the military, I worked for the post office doing menial labor in hopes of earning the right to bid on a salaried position. I know what if feels like to spend (only) three years doing a job I hated with no right upward mobility.

Chris Paul should be able to go wherever the HECK for a better word he desires.

All this CRAP about super teams is super stupid. Miami LOST last season to Dallas. What happened is the rest of the league ramped up to beat the Heat. Their cap problems prevented them from having a C or a PG worth beans. What did Carmelo and Amare win? NOTHING. Meanwhile, Denver got better after Melo left. Why? Team ball. Floor balance. Defense was played. No one dominated the ball. Lowry facilitated instead of Melo jacked shots.

The problem really was THE DECISION show in which Wade and James and Bosh acted like prima donnas. They were like WWE entertainers. I hated it. Most did. Not that they had the right to be on the same team. Riley got it done. I hated their lack of class--subjective on my part.

What I HATE NOW is folks are fine with David Stern saying no, you can't do this. The guy really is a controller and the fans are being pulled into the "Us vs Them" that Stern and the all white and MJ owners are doing to the mostly black players.

I will stop at this. It isn't racism. It is the attempt by ownership to have way too much control. Albert Pujols isn't with the Cardinals any more. Why aren't you guys complaining about baseball? Baseball players change teams like they change their clothes. Has that ruin competitive balance? No.

This is just Stern and NBA owners power tripping. They are ruining the game. Not the players.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=a ... nba_120811

We were all told by the league he was a trade-able player, and now they’re saying that Dell doesn’t have the authority to make the trade?” said an NBA executive who had periodic talks with New Orleans throughout the process. “Now, they’re saying that Dell is an idiot, that he can’t do it his job. [Expletive] this whole thing. David’s drunk on power, and he doesn’t give a [expletive] about the players, and he doesn’t give a [expletive] about the hundreds of hours the teams put in to make that deal.

Either Stern is drunk on power or he is afraid of certain owners IMO.

[willbcocks]

CCJ:

I also am outraged, though I am not seeing it through the racial lens as much as you are.

This was managed horribly and reeks of corruption. Fans, or at least hard core fans, love free agency and trades because it offers hope, mixes things up, and gives us something to talk about. This is a slap in face to that system and the fans. And the deal that was nixed--it wasn't that bad a deal! It doesn't fit my preferred method of rebuilding, i.e., acquiring draft picks and tanking, but at least the Hornets were getting value back, which they could think swing for picks should they desire.

But when you ask "Why aren't you guys complaining about baseball"--c'mon man, this is a basketball site, the majority of us don't care about baseball. And when you ask why aren't more people complaining about David Stern's heavy-handedness and the owners--my impression is that the majority on the Wizards board, and on Realgm in general, are doing just that.

I'm sure the general public is reacting quite differently from the Realgm, and perhaps that's where you're getting this feeling, but I feel like on here, well, you're preaching to the choir.

[Ruzious]

That deal was friggin terrible for the Hornets. I cant believe someone would actually think it was good. They were taking on the Rockets and Lakers trash and giving up their superstar. Wheres the salary relief? Wheres the picks/prospects? If i was a Hornets fan i would have been outraged.

It was even more of a Laker-rape than the original Pau trade. At least the Grizz got Marc back in that deal, who granted many didnt think much of at the time, but he was a damn good C prospect who has now proved his worth.

The only other way the Lakers could have raped them any further would be if they left them alone in a hotel room in Colorado with Kobe Bryant, a six pack of champagne and a looped track of Patty Smyth's "Sometime's Love Just Ain't Enough".

People keep posting "OMG now CP3 will NEVA BE TRADERED!!!"

How about if the Lakers offered, you know, a good package? Lets start with Bynum + multiple picks, some of their younger players, take back or find a team for Okafor?

Young player(s)/Picks/Salary relief <--- I would say, when trading away a star player, a team would want back at least 2/3 of those.

That Lakers offer had NONE of those.

End rant.

DM, if the trade went through, the Hornets got several fairly valuable assets that they could have traded and essentially converted to several draft choices that they NEEDED. As things are, they might get NOTHING... for Paul, and they'll likely be an embarrasment to the NBA and turn away a franchise of fans.

"People keep posting "OMG now CP3 will NEVA BE TRADERED!!!""

Cripes DM. That's because it might be true. Ohh carrots!

Now Dan Gilbert can be happy that another small market team gets to suffer the same fate his Cavs did. And he does it under the guise of saying he's trying to protect them. Talk about a hypocrite.

[MF23]

I don't see a problem with this. There is no racial implication here. I see an owner(s) saying no to a trade. Paul's under contract and the owners control where he plays. Paul can throw a fit if he wants but legally he's under contract.

Dan Gilbert's whining email is funny though.

[dangermouse]

The guy really is a controller and the fans are being pulled into the "Us vs Them" that Stern and the all white and MJ owners are doing to the mostly black players.

So what are you saying here by seperating MJ from the other owners and the mostly black players, MJ some kind of Uncle Tom or whatever the term is? I cant believe youre turning yet another sports issue into a race issue. There is no racial motivation going on here.

And if i hear someone equate this and the lockout/CBA with slaves and plantation owners again I will lose it. If i was African-American, or even just American, I would be incredibly offended by that proposed analogy.

[dangermouse]

That deal was friggin terrible for the Hornets. I cant believe someone would actually think it was good. They were taking on the Rockets and Lakers trash and giving up their superstar. Wheres the salary relief? Wheres the picks/prospects? If i was a Hornets fan i would have been outraged.

It was even more of a Laker-rape than the original Pau trade. At least the Grizz got Marc back in that deal, who granted many didnt think much of at the time, but he was a damn good C prospect who has now proved his worth.

The only other way the Lakers could have raped them any further would be if they left them alone in a hotel room in Colorado with Kobe Bryant, a six pack of champagne and a looped track of Patty Smyth's "Sometime's Love Just Ain't Enough".

People keep posting "OMG now CP3 will NEVA BE TRADERED!!!"

How about if the Lakers offered, you know, a good package? Lets start with Bynum + multiple picks, some of their younger players, take back or find a team for Okafor?

Young player(s)/Picks/Salary relief <--- I would say, when trading away a star player, a team would want back at least 2/3 of those.

That Lakers offer had NONE of those.

End rant.

DM, if the trade went through, the Hornets got several fairly valuable assets that they could have traded and essentially converted to several draft choices that they NEEDED. As things are, they might get NOTHING... for Paul, and they'll likely be an embarrasment to the NBA and turn away a franchise of fans.

"People keep posting "OMG now CP3 will NEVA BE TRADERED!!!""

Cripes DM. That's because it might be true. Ohh carrots!

Now Dan Gilbert can be happy that another small market team gets to suffer the same fate his Cavs did. And he does it under the guise of saying he's trying to protect them. Talk about a hypocrite.

They wouldnt have got much. Look on the trade board here and see the heated discussion over Pau, most wouldnt even trade Blatche for him. Only a select few teams would want someone like Scola at 8mil for the next 4 years, and i doubt they would be willing to give up much.

And whos going to want a depressed Lamar Odom after this?

It may be good managing to stockpile talent, but not if that talent is over the hill and being paid too much, with no guarantee that anyone wants them anyway.

Id rather take the sure thing, young players, picks, expirings... Let LAL do the groundwork finding other teams to take on the crap.

And can someone explain how Chris Paul can not be traded now? Not even if a better offer is put on the table (which is oviously the reason it was nixed)?

I'm not even going to go into the rumours on the Celtics board regarding CP3/his agency apparently saying he wouldnt turn up to camp if traded to Boston. If there is any truth to that though, that throws this whole thing into a new light and I lose more respect for him than I did for Deron. He'd be below LeBron, and thats bad...
___________________________________________________________________________________________

If i was a Rockets fan i would be pretty miffed though, as their offseason moves were hinging on this trade. Gasol/Nene would have been a pretty good front line, definitely better than what they may be stuck rolling with come season opener.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

CCJ:

I also am outraged, though I am not seeing it through the racial lens as much as you are.

This was managed horribly and reeks of corruption. Fans, or at least hard core fans, love free agency and trades because it offers hope, mixes things up, and gives us something to talk about. This is a slap in face to that system and the fans. And the deal that was nixed--it wasn't that bad a deal! It doesn't fit my preferred method of rebuilding, i.e., acquiring draft picks and tanking, but at least the Hornets were getting value back, which they could think swing for picks should they desire.

But when you ask "Why aren't you guys complaining about baseball"--c'mon man, this is a basketball site, the majority of us don't care about baseball. And when you ask why aren't more people complaining about David Stern's heavy-handedness and the owners--my impression is that the majority on the Wizards board, and on Realgm in general, are doing just that.

I'm sure the general public is reacting quite differently from the Realgm, and perhaps that's where you're getting this feeling, but I feel like on here, well, you're preaching to the choir.

In that case I can sit down and enjoy the music. The choir is awesome.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

The guy really is a controller and the fans are being pulled into the "Us vs Them" that Stern and the all white and MJ owners are doing to the mostly black players.

So what are you saying here by seperating MJ from the other owners and the mostly black players, MJ some kind of Uncle Tom or whatever the term is? I cant believe youre turning yet another sports issue into a race issue. There is no racial motivation going on here.

And if i hear someone equate this and the lockout/CBA with slaves and plantation owners again I will lose it. If i was African-American, or even just American, I would be incredibly offended by that proposed analogy.

Go ahead and lose it then, DM. I am an African American and if you read a few pages back I qualified exactly where I stand on the analogy. You don't like to read the context of what I say, apparently, but you want to tell me I am wrong to mention race at all.

My late great grandmother lived to be 105. She was born in 1890 and died in 1995. The youngest of many children, her father had been born a slave.My grandmother worked in Memphis, Tennessee, for "Miss Judy"; the daughter of a (white) railroad executive from 1914 until around 1975. DM, my father picked cotton as a child. However, like my grandmother he didn't have any racial bitterness and (has) lived a long time. That despite both living through things most of us never had to. I don't fan flames and rarely bring race up at all. In the case of the NBA owners versus the players, I am sharing my OPINION. You have yours, I have mine.

My OPINION: Dan Gilbert owned Lebron James, the Cleveland Cavalier, for 7 years. Gilbert made money hand-over-fist from non-basketball ventures that were enhanced by him owning the Cavs at a time when that team was very good. Gilbert threw a fit over James leaving. Now, he has aided in blocking Chris Paul.

My PERCEPTION (doesn't have to match yours, DM) is that empowered African American players getting together and figuring a way to be on the same team being called "players pulling crap" or words to that effect comes down to "who do they think they are?" by the poster. I bet if you polled the posters on who they sided with, owners or players, blacks side with players and whites owners. I think "the choir" of realgm posters would be very knowledgeable regardless of which side they support. Still, there would be a racial bias just like there is in political voting.

I view the racial element of this the same way I do jury selection. Racial makeup and gender do affect jury outcomes. The majority owners being white--with Jordan being the sole exception I am aware of--and EVERY player rep and Billy Hunter being black, made me notice the racial part of the lockout. With the NFL, the focal members on the players behalf included quarterbacks Tom Brady, Payton Manning, Drew Brees, etc. Different player faces than Melo, James, Wade, Paul, Garnett, Pierce, Mason Jr, Etan, and Fisher. I believe (again my perception--not necessarily the way it really is, DM, but my OPINION) is that the animus on both sides part has something to do with the racial makeup of the opposing sides, owners and players.

The reason I said white owners and Micheal Jordan is he is the only black person on the NBA management side who had a voice in the owners camp. I wasn't saying he was an "Uncle Tom", but I do think Marbury is correct in labeling him a sellout. Actually, I think Jordan was just looking out for his own business interest as an owner. He wanted to turn around the financially struggling Bobcats and didn't mind being competitive enough to say owners should get 57% BRI. To players he is now not one of them. Another judicial analogy: Supreme Court justice Clarence Thomas has views different from the majority of blacks the same way MJ is now on the side of ownership, as is minority owner Magic Johnson.

The whole mention of race is that I do think there would be no outrage against Paul and other players by owners if the players comported themselves and looked by racial makeup like Tom Brady, Payton Manning, etc. The latter commands respect of fans; whereas, Paul and Carmelo and Lebron are called out for trying to control where they play and for being vocal about how much of the BRI they think players should get.

I see a racial element in the owners getting very adamant in trying to block Paul and other players, DM. You and others are free to see it differently.

[LyricalRico]

I don't like the way this was handled, but I think it's really not fair to say it was about the monetary value of the Hornets. I also don't see this as an anti-player move so much as an anti-superteam move.

But isn't that still intrinsically anti-player? That the league can stop a trade that has been agreed upon by 3 teams simply because they don't like where a specific player is going? If they league didn't want super-teams, they should had the chance to put it in the CBA. They didn't and now they are trying to force an agenda through collusion. Seems like the very definition of anti-player to me.

[verbal8]

Dan Gilbert's whining email is funny though.

I didn't think his email was overboard in the whining department. I think if the deal is done without Okafor, it is way too lopsided. The Hornets are taking on $30 million in salary and giving up one of the best players in the NBA does seem unbalanced.

[LyricalRico]

This pretty much sums up the way this has damaged the league:

As one rival executive with strong ties to the league office said, “Stern cared about two things: Selling that franchise for the best possible price; and showing the players that they weren’t going to dictate where teams could trade them. But now, there’s no way that the league can allow Chris Paul to be traded at all, otherwise Stern is basically deciding where one of the top players in the league is going versus having any fair process.”

Officials from New Orleans, Houston and Los Angeles were stunned Thursday night. The killed trade had ripple effects everywhere in free agency and potential trades, and literally pushed the market into paralysis on the eve of training camps opening up.

And this describes how I feel right now:

“We were all told by the league he was a trade-able player, and now they’re saying that Dell doesn’t have the authority to make the trade?” said an NBA executive who had periodic talks with New Orleans throughout the process. “Now, they’re saying that Dell is an idiot, that he can’t do it his job. [Expletive] this whole thing. David’s drunk on power, and he doesn’t give a [expletive] about the players, and he doesn’t give a [expletive] about the hundreds of hours the teams put in to make that deal.

“How do the Lakers explain this to Odom? How does Houston deal with the guys it just tried to trade? Scola and Martin are going to be pissed at them, and who knows how long that takes to get over? Explain to me how the league kills this Pau Gasol deal, but allows Kwame Brown for Pau Gasol?

“To me, this makes the league feel like it’s rigged, that Stern just does whatever Stern wants to do. He’s messed up the competitive balance of this league a lot worse by killing the deal, because you’ve completely destroyed the planning that New Orleans, Houston did and left them in shambles over this. I’ve never been so discouraged about this league, never so down.

“I mean, come on: Chris Paul is leaving New Orleans in 66 games. He’s gone. And what’s Dell Demps, and that franchise, going to have to show for it?”

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=A ... nba_120811

Really not excited about the NBA right now.

[no D in Hibachi]

I'm not even going to go into the rumours on the Celtics board regarding CP3/his agency apparently saying he wouldnt turn up to camp if traded to Boston. If there israny truth to that though, that throws this whole thing into a new light and I lose more respect for him than I did for Deron. He'd be below LeBron, and thats bad...

This. There are many layers to this onion, but the CAA is right at the core. The lockout accomplished nothing and if i were a hardline owner i'd be beyond ticked with some of the rumblings.