Retro POY '87-88 (Voting Complete)

[JordansBulls]

So if Magic has a good game and Worthy drops 6/5/4 and the Lakers lose, Magic is a worse player than before? And if Magic has a good game and Worthy drops 36/16/10 and the Lakers win, Magic is a worse player than before?

Ummmm...........okay.

The Lakers should have lost anyway in Game 6.
But I understand your point now.

[JordansBulls]

The "Jordan rules" thing is so overrated.
Some Jordan fans are acting like MJ was the only player in history who ever got defensive attention from opposite team. It's like Hakeem's fans who think that he's the only one who ever was double teamed.

People bring it up because their was an actual book on it. It isn't to say he was the only one that had a defense scheme on him.

[sp6r=underrated]

Again though, it is game 7 of the NBA Finals, you shouldn't have your teammate clearly outshine you as much as Worthy did in that game. I mean 36/16/10.

I guess Magic should have stopped passing the ball to Worthy, had his teammates freeze him out, and boxed Worthy out for rebounds.

Worthy had a monster game 7, good for him. Doesn't in any way negate the fact that Magic significantly outplayed him that series.

[Jordan23Forever]

lol... how many ppg?

I'm pretty sure once assists are factored in it doesn't matter, and the Pistons couldn't have played Magic the way they played Jordan anyway. Magic was always looking to get out on the break and didn't put himself in the same situations that Jordan did. I've seen plenty of video during the "Jordan Rules" years where he is taking shots with 3 defenders on him, much like Kobe did in 2004/2008.

Jordan is supposed to get a pass for those type of low percentage shots? Go look at some of that video on YouTube and you'll see plenty of situations where he took a bad shot when he could have dumped the ball off to someone else. He was just taking it personally and trying to beat the Pistons on his own. When Magic posts up he usually gets a very high percentage shot for himself or dumps it off to someone with a brilliant pass when the defense least expected it. You hardly ever see Jordan doing that kind of thing unless he gets caught in the air and makes on of those wraparound passes, which is more of a fortunate bailout than a spectacular offensive play.

Maybe that's why Magic is more valuable though -- because you can't shut him down by forcing him into taking poor shots or making bad passes. He controls/dictates what happens on offense and that's a bit more difficult to stop than someone whose primary role is to score points.

lol @ this entire post. What a joke. Give Magic Jordan's 1988 teammates and have the Pistons play him the same way they played Jordan and he'd be shut down even worse than MJ. The reason they couldn't play Magic the way they played Jordan is because Magic had teammates who would actually make them pay for doubling/tripling him.

I also still don't see how Hakeem had MORE of a case for DPOY in 1988 than MJ did, considering that MJ did more (i.e., spearheaded a better team defense) with less and put up spectacular defensive stats as well. Jordan's disruptive defense was the primary reason Chicago was as good defensively as they were that year. He was everywhere. One of my faves is the 5 steal/5 block (and 44 point) performance vs. Hakeem's Rockets that year.

[Doctor MJ]

Again though, it is game 7 of the NBA Finals, you shouldn't have your teammate clearly outshine you as much as Worthy did in that game. I mean 36/16/10.

That's a funny way to put it. The philosophy of a point guard is one where if a teammate is getting good looks, you try to feed him because using teammates with good looks is going to be more effective than what you can do yourself no matter who you are.

[JordansBulls]

Again though, it is game 7 of the NBA Finals, you shouldn't have your teammate clearly outshine you as much as Worthy did in that game. I mean 36/16/10.

That's a funny way to put it. The philosophy of a point guard is one where if a teammate is getting good looks, you try to feed him because using teammates with good looks is going to be more effective than what you can do yourself no matter who you are.

ronnymac made me realize my error, I corrected it here.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1020700&start=43

[toodles23]

With the Hakeem vs Jordan DPOY thing - Jordan certainly has a case. Hakeem had fantastic defensive stats, as always, but he was a dumb defender early in his career - he gambled a lot and bit on nearly every fake. Maybe this was different by '88, but I recently watched some of the Rockets '86 playoff games and it was certainly the case then.

Again though, it is game 7 of the NBA Finals, you shouldn't have your teammate clearly outshine you as much as Worthy did in that game. I mean 36/16/10.

That's a funny way to put it. The philosophy of a point guard is one where if a teammate is getting good looks, you try to feed him because using teammates with good looks is going to be more effective than what you can do yourself no matter who you are.

It's absurd to penalize Magic for letting Worthy go to work when he was in the zone like that.

[Doctor MJ]

One thing on the Jordan DPOY: I'm skeptical about whether he deserved it too because of the stiff competition, but young Jordan was something to see as a help defender. He was just everywhere, and as was mentioned, he's the lead blocker & stealer on the 3rd best defense in the league. He was absolutely a worthy contender.

[lorak]

re: Jordan's DPOY

1987 - 1 point in voting
1988 - 665 pts
1989 - 3 pts
1990 - 1 pt
... and so on

So 1988 is clearly aberration and it's hard to explain why he was so good only that one year. I mean, he obviously was very good defender, but suddenly during one summer he made a leap from a guy who barely got any votes to a DPOY and then again in one summer he became the guy who barely gets any votes.

[JordansBulls]

re: Jordan's DPOY

1987 - 1 point in voting
1988 - 665 pts
1989 - 3 pts
1990 - 1 pt
... and so on

So 1988 is clearly aberration and it's hard to explain why he was so good only that one year. I mean, he obviously was very good defender, but suddenly during one summer he made a leap from a guy who barely got any votes to a DPOY and then again in one summer he became the guy who barely gets any votes.

Not sure, but here is a quote from MJ in 1987

Jordan always knew about his defense. "Michael Cooper (the Laker who won defensive player honors for 1986-87) is great at ball-denial," says Jordan. "But check his other stats (78 steals, 43 blocks). This league gives defensive awards on reputation. It just tees me off."

[Doctor MJ]

re: Jordan's DPOY

1987 - 1 point in voting
1988 - 665 pts
1989 - 3 pts
1990 - 1 pt
... and so on

So 1988 is clearly aberration and it's hard to explain why he was so good only that one year. I mean, he obviously was very good defender, but suddenly during one summer he made a leap from a guy who barely got any votes to a DPOY and then again in one summer he became the guy who barely gets any votes.

Excellent observation.

Now, I will say: This was the year where he got the most steals/blocks (4.8), and it was the year where the Bulls' defensive efficiency was at its best of the pre-dynasty year. Makes sense this would be the year he's the best candidate. Bizarre that the difference was that big.

[ElGee]

Nothing, but that's the same logic - judgemend based on one game. Very important, but still only one game.

People are free to judge and measure and rate how they want. In some instances one or two games are just that important.

Case in point -- the Ron Artest signing. He doesn't do what he did over the past two games, by outscoring Paul Pierce in each game, and the Lakers don't win the title, it's likely viewed as a failure. And I would have completely supported that.

In this instance, Worthy's performance was so spectacular, and so clutch, and so important -- it basically tipped the balance of that year's championship -- that I think it's deserving of a measly fifth-place vote.

This is conflating team analysis with individual analysis, is it not?

Everything you said regarding a disappointing or successful season is true from a team perspective. Expectations of teams are, by nature, dichotomous. They only get a W or L at the end of the game. That result doesn't change how an individual player performed. Worthy and Artest were only in those game 7's because of team circumstance (which doesn't discredit their play, it should be kept in mind only a handful of players can even be on teams with game 7 opportunities every year). The final team result, and how they played in those decisive games, doesn't change how they performed for the rest of the season...which, I thought, was what we were evaluating in this project.

(FWIW, Worthy's playoff numbers in 87 and 89 were MUCH better than his 88 second season.)

[TrueLAfan]

1. Magic. Ronnymac said what I would have said earlier. Look, I've voted for Michael Jordan as league MVP seven times...sometimes when he didn't have the best regular season, but when he carried his teams. And Jordan carried teams in a way that was statistically more identifiable/obvious than Magic. I'm not going to downgrade Magic for that. Or for having good support. Or for playing like a stud in the postseason on the title winning team. Didn't do it for MJ. Didn't do it for Kobe. Didn't do it for Shaq. Didn't do it for Duncan. The best player in the league in 1988 was Magic Johnson.
2. MJ. Was not at his best, but was still so close to being the best player in the league. The Bulls were thoroughly blown out by the Pistons (who scored nearly 10 points more a game)...and the Pistons were a great team, but not that great. Not yet. Jordan played great, though. The Pistons ran a bunch of different sets against him. Sometimes they doubled. Sometimes they overplayed. Sometimes they fell back and dared him to shoot from 25 feet out, and concentrated on blocking the passing and driving lanes. It worked. I always have laughed at the sometimes stated idea that “Chicago realized they needed to get more physical"...what, more physical than a frontline of Charles Oakley, Dave (Lumber) Corzine, and Horace Grant? They needed to get smarter. They weren't yet, and neither was MJ.
3. Bird. Watching the injury riddled Celtics give the Pistons everything they could handle was wonderful and sad. McHale had a broken foot by the end of the series. The Pistons doubled Bird as much or more than they did Jordan, since McHale was hobbling. The Celtics in 1988 looked like the Celtics in Game 7 of the 2010 Finals...old and out of gas. Bird was held in check to a degree, but still played awfully well.
4. Dominique. Okay...Doc Rivers was a good ballplayer. Kevin Willis was okay this season. The rest of the team was somethwere between average and pathetic, and they won 50 games and took the Celtics to 7. I'll go with Nique by a smidge over...
5. Malone. Close between Malone, Hakeem, and Clyde. Drexler folded in the playoffs. Hakeem's team underperformed during the RS. Malone had the best combination of skills and success in 1988.

HM Hakeem, Drexler.

[Dr Positivity]

1. Magic
2. Jordan
3. Bird

In 89 the key to picking Jordan for me was Magic's finals injury. This year what does it for me in choosing the top 2 is experience. Michael was 24 and playing on his first good team. Magic was on his way to a 5th title after the Lakers dominating their conference all decade. I believe in the concept of reps in basketball - all else equal, it's advantage to have been through 4 title runs and seen it all, than to be on your first real playoff run. The league still belonged to Magic and Larry at this point. I thought about putting Bird 2nd for the same experience reason, but his numbers against the Pistons are too eye popping, reading over the blurbs on page 1:

Game 1: 8 for 20
Game 2: 8 for 20
Game 3: 6 for 15
Game 4: didn't say, but 20 points
Game 5: 9 for 25, 4 for 15 in the 2nd half. The Pistons came from 16 down on the road in this game, Isiah had 16 in the 4th. This is where the series swung. Bird needed to be better.
Game 6: 4 for 17. Good night Celtics.

With that said Bird's regular season was epic and he had one of the greatest single game moments ever in Game 7 against Atlanta, so he's still an easy 3rd.

Last two spots to me was between Dominique, Hakeem, Malone, Drexler. Hakeem had the crazy numbers, but lost in 4 to the Mavs in a weird series - The Rockets got the 1-1 split in Dallas and then lost both their games in Houston. Dominique led an OK team to 50 wins and then pushed the Celts to the limit. The Jazz pushed the champion Lakers to 7 - Malone wasn't quite in his prime however. Lower efficiency, volume scoring, and rebounding than he'd start to get a few years later, and finished 8th in MVP voting. Drexler shot too poorly in the playoffs, I'm leaving him out.

I'll go with the guys with the big playoffs, Dominique and Hakeem. I'll give the edge to Hakeem for having the more complete game. He did a pretty good job carrying those Rockets to 46 wins in a depressing situation, too, and they came pretty close to getting the leg up on a much better Dallas team thanks to Hakeem's high volume

4. Hakeem
5. Dominique

[Sedale Threatt]

This is conflating team analysis with individual analysis, is it not?

Everything you said regarding a disappointing or successful season is true from a team perspective. Expectations of teams are, by nature, dichotomous. They only get a W or L at the end of the game. That result doesn't change how an individual player performed. Worthy and Artest were only in those game 7's because of team circumstance (which doesn't discredit their play, it should be kept in mind only a handful of players can even be on teams with game 7 opportunities every year). The final team result, and how they played in those decisive games, doesn't change how they performed for the rest of the season...which, I thought, was what we were evaluating in this project.

(FWIW, Worthy's playoff numbers in 87 and 89 were MUCH better than his 88 second season.)

Maybe I should have left the championship part out regarding Ron. The point was, we brought him in specifically to handle guys like LeBron and Pierce. If he hadn't performed as he had over their past two games, it would have had a huge impact on how his addition would have been viewed, and likely would have led to us losing the other night.

The greater point being, sometimes how a full season is viewed does come down to a game or two. And I'm not going to argue that, because I'm not particularly interested in swaying anybody's opinion, or change how they reach their conclusions. At this point, it's pretty clear that everybody has their own idea of what's important, and this, provided the circumstances fit, is something I take into consideration.

Worthy's game is the case in point. Was he in that position to begin with because of team circumstance. Well...yeah. But what different does that make? Couldn't we say pretty much the same thing about everybody we've voted on?

But being in the position simply gives on the opportunity. Absolutely anything can happen after that, and in this case, with a championship on the line, Worthy came up with the absolute best game of his 1,069-game career. Rising to the occasion in such spectacular fashion is a tremendous achievement, one of the great clutch performances in league history and more than worthy -- pardon the pun -- of a fifth-place vote.

[Sedale Threatt]

1. Magic. I didn't need much arm-twisting here, to be honest. It's extremely hard to vote for anybody but 30-8-8, DPOY Mike, but Buck was simply that influential. He was at the peak of his game here, putting up ridiculous production while willing his team to the title.

2. Jordan. Easy pick in most other years. But as great as he was, he's gotten enough love, I think. Magic has just enough credentials here to edge him out.

3. Bird. Feel like I should mark him down for playing so poorly against the Pistons, but I wouldn't put anybody else above him.

4. Dream. Either him or Malone, and I go with Hakeem. Just a better all-around player at this point, in my opinion. Plus, it was only four games, but his playoffs were pretty sick.

5. Worthy. A homer pick here. But as stated, when your best game out of 1,069 comes with a championship on the line, you deserve a little smidge of love.

[Sedale Threatt]

My bad about missing the last vote, too. I was all wrapped up in Game 7 and I totally lost track.

[kaima]

5. Worthy. A homer pick here. But as stated, when your best game out of 1,069 comes with a championship on the line, you deserve a little smidge of love.

My only problem with this, is what it opens up. Which might be a big problem.

What I mean is, are we going with Worthy because of the performance alone, or because it combined with a championship win?

Because, though I wouldn't make it, a very similar argument could be made for Isiah's game 6. Isiah was, though I'd argue that it's vague, more of the man than Worthy; just by the very standard of who Worthy played with and who Isiah played with. Isiah was a part of the whole, from my perspective, a very key part, while Worthy was part of Magic's band.

I think that's a key difference. It's similar to the Scottie Pippen argument.

I also believe that Magic's value isn't just his stats, but those around him. While something like TS% doesn't generally prove a whole lot to me, the context in which Worthy's percentage drops is important: with Magic's retirement. His TS is over 50 every season before Magic retires, and under every season after.

Magic could be argued number 1 for any year he played a decent amount of games in. That's largely because of his presence-as-facilitation ability, which shines directly on a player like Worthy.

I wouldn't make the same argument for Kareem, but I think Worthy is in a vague place himself as far as the Lakers' hierarchy.

Even Byron Scott may have an argument over James. Though, he did live up to his moniker here, no doubt, I don't know if that's enough against the field.

Let's say Robert Horry's game 5 in 05 won the title, or his game 4 against Sac in 02. These are moments rather than full games, yes, but the Worthy argument is a game-as-full-season definition in this case -- I'd say the strata from extrapolation makes the cases quite similar. Does Horry warrant a POY vote?

Be interested to hear more thoughts on Worthy, and what people believe his worth was without Magic and the loaded Lakers.

[kaima]

The Jazz pushed the champion Lakers to 7 - Malone wasn't quite in his prime however. Lower efficiency, volume scoring, and rebounding than he'd start to get a few years later, and finished 8th in MVP voting. Drexler shot too poorly in the playoffs, I'm leaving him out.

It seems, and this is a casual observation, that whenever Malone is low (by his standard) in MVP voting, this is a key mark against him. Yet if Hakeem finishes low(er), no one seems to care or notice.

And parallel to, when Malone often finishes high -- as he did in 89 (third behind Magic and Michael, only unanimous All-NBA selection) -- hardly anyone seems to care. In fact, in 89, more than one person argued that Malone wasn't even as valuable as guys who finished with no votes.

In fact, Olajuwon, an established brand from the 86 Finals, finished at 7 this year. Yet Malone, who really burst on the scene for the first time nationally, is seen in a poor light at 8. Huh.

The 89 results had (h)Akeem and Barkley comfortably ahead of Malone even though both finished behind in MVP votes (not my standard, but for those using it...) at 5th and 6th respectively, while all three had similar playoff runs...to nowhere.

Note: this wasn't meant as a reply purely to Doc Mufasa. His point just keyed on a larger one for me, and so I quoted it.

[Optimism Prime]

5. Worthy. A homer pick here. But as stated, when your best game out of 1,069 comes with a championship on the line, you deserve a little smidge of love.

My only problem with this, is what it opens up. Which might be a big problem.

I have a problem with it too. Namely, this:

4. Dream. Either him or Malone, and I go with Hakeem. Just a better all-around player at this point, in my opinion. Plus, it was only four games, but his playoffs were pretty sick.

5. Worthy. A homer pick here. But as stated, when your best game out of 1,069 comes with a championship on the line, you deserve a little smidge of love.

So... Sedale, your fourth place vote could be either Hakeem or Malone, but your ranking ends up Hakeem and Worthy? It's just contradictory with what you stated in the previous paragraph. By what you said in that post, your ballot should be:

4. Hakeem
5. Malone
HM: Worthy

I'm just confused as hell how Worthy overcame the Hakeem/Malone tie.