MJ VS LEBRON VS WHOEVER THREAD

[Ice Trae]

Chamberlain was a beast on and off the court so him

[GeorgeMarcus]

Really there are 5 players who have an argument (1 of which was omitted from the poll):
Wilt, MJ, LeBron, Kareem, Russell

Why does Wilt have an argument instead of KG, Duncan, Shaq, or Hakeem?

How can you have an argument when you're the clear second fiddle of your era?

Because he was not the "clear 2nd fiddle" by any stretch of the imagination. He was the most gifted basketball player of all time who still dominates the record books 50 years later and won rings with 2 different franchises. Would have won more with the luxury of Russell's supporting cast, but he wasn't surrounded with comparable talent until his twilight years in LA. You of all people should realize how silly and reductionist it is to make the rings argument while ignoring context.

[Repeat 3-peat]

I vote we merge all the GOAT threads and then sticky it!

I mean it's also the same answer to these same threads.

Michael Jordan.

[freethedevil]

Really there are 5 players who have an argument (1 of which was omitted from the poll):
Wilt, MJ, LeBron, Kareem, Russell

Why does Wilt have an argument instead of KG, Duncan, Shaq, or Hakeem?

How can you have an argument when you're the clear second fiddle of your era?

Because he was not the "clear 2nd fiddle" by any stretch of the imagination.

He was the clear second fiddle both stastically over-time, in terms of accolades, and in terms of winning. His only argument vs russell is peak which is idientical to the argument shaq can make vs lebron or jordan(despite not being listed).

[zimpy27]

LeBron. If I had to choose but it's difficult to assign any logic to it because there are too many factors at play.

I've had LeBron and Jordan equal for a few years. It's really just been the continued dominance of LeBron in this season that I've finally given him the lead.

From my perspective LeBron has a better peak length in playoffs and he has longevity. Jordan had a better length of peak in the regular season.

It's a little hard to judge them, not just because of era but because Jordan played hard every game of the RS while LeBron has coasted a little in the RS and lifts to a higher level in the playoffs. Plus they have very different play styles.

[GeorgeMarcus]

Why does Wilt have an argument instead of KG, Duncan, Shaq, or Hakeem?

How can you have an argument when you're the clear second fiddle of your era?

Because he was not the "clear 2nd fiddle" by any stretch of the imagination.

He was the clear second fiddle both stastically over-time, in terms of accolades, and in terms of winning. His only argument vs russell is peak which is idientical to the argument shaq can make vs lebron or jordan(despite not being listed).

2nd fiddle statistically? Boy I'd love to hear that argument... No player in history even sniffs Wilt's statistical resume.

Accolades? Again, no... Wilt cracked 1st team All-NBA 8 times (all during Russell's career) compared to Russell's 3 (2 during Wilt's career). Russell's 5 MVPS compared to Wilt's 4 is a reflection of the fact that Finals MVPs didn't exist at the time, so Finals performance was fused into the award.

I already addressed the winning aspect, which I think is self-explanatory. You have to be pretty anti-Wilt (or maybe just uninformed?) to believe he doesn't have a case for GOAT.

[freethedevil]

Michael Jordan and I honestly think that people that picked Lebron (or really anyone else) just wasn't around to see him when he actually played..

How insecure must one be to resort to ad-hominem before even making an argument?


There's plenty of older ppl who have lebron>jordan.

Being uninformed really isn't an excuse for gatekeeping.

Do you even know what ad hominem means?

Yes. As you seem not to, I'll post it for you:

You attacked your opponent's character or personal traits in an attempt to undermine their argument.

I highlighted the part that applies here.

"I honestly think people that picked lebron....didn't see it" is intentionally trying to subvert the argument by casting doubt on their credibility due to a percieved characteristic of the induvidual. In this case, the personal trait is that they lack anecdotal experience with the subject.

The issue is, if you can't actually address the argumentation, then you theoretically having a more valuable opinion really doesn't matter, since you've failed to showcase this value giving no one who is observing the discussion anything to scrutinize or take in.

You can say you watched the 90's as much as you wish to, if your argument relies on baseless assumptions like "jordan's scoring edge is more valuable lebron's passing", "jordan locking people up is worth more than lebron's superioir rim protection and help d," there's really zero reason to assume you know what your'e talking about.

Finally, the human mind, at maximal capcity can only observe around 5 musical notes at once. Basketball actions are far more complicated than the visualization of a note, so again, unless you are tracking and rewatching tape, your eyetest probably isn't very useful without hard granular data to support.

To form a logical argument about a player's value you need...

quantititaive data(overall impact/historical trends on what kind of play builds work in specifc contexts)
granular data(eyetest/tape analysis, granular data)
Contextual analysis(KG's impact not fluctuating under a wide variety of teams, The top defenses of the east beinf weak offenses(which boosted lebron's offenisve stats), ect.

If you aren't capable of the other things listed, your eyetest is probably going to be useless outside of scouting future potential

[Bruteque]

MJ obviously. He was the complete package.

Given how mentally weak LeBron is, I wouldn't even put him in the top 4, but I guess his mentality resonates with much of today's audience. Actually, half of the Jordan era stars may even be on the same tier as 'Bron if you considered more than just physical abilities. Even a borderline star like Kyrie has a heck of a lot more mental fortitude than LeBron does.

[freethedevil]

Because he was not the "clear 2nd fiddle" by any stretch of the imagination.

He was the clear second fiddle both stastically over-time, in terms of accolades, and in terms of winning. His only argument vs russell is peak which is idientical to the argument shaq can make vs lebron or jordan(despite not being listed).

2nd fiddle statistically? Boy I'd love to hear that argument

Looking at overall play, the only real stat we have here is srs +/-. Looking at that, Russell has
-> more +6.5 seasons
-> more +6 seasons
-> more +5.5 seasons
-> more +5 seasons

and his peak was equal to wilt's.

If you want to simplify things and just look at it from a w-l perspective, Russell has won championships with teams that have won less without him than a couple of the laker teams Wilt has failed to win with. And Wilt's 6ers team was better without him than a couple of the teams Russell elevated far higher than any of wilt's.

THe only stastical approaches that favor wilt are entirely excluding defense or cherrypicking a specific part of the game. IOW, he doeesn't have a good argument against russell, stastically, or otherwise.

... No player in history even sniffs Wilt's statistical resume.

Lebron, Shaq, Jordan, and Hakeem all peaked higher looking at what we have available and Russell/KG/Curry/Bird/Kareem, and Ducan all have peaks that compare well statistically. You either have to delibarately use data that does an awful job(compariatively) of predicting winning or winning with roster turnover(iow, indiuvdial impact), and/or exlcude defense to make the argument. And even then, if you do that, Kareem still hard bodies wilt. Wilt has like zero stastical case for goat

Accolades? Again, no... Wilt cracked 1st team All-NBA 8 times compared to Russell's 3. Russell's 5 MVPS compared to Wilt's 4 is a reflection of the fact that Finals MVPs didn't exist at the time, so Finals performance was fused into the award.
/quote]
Russell had more mvp's and more importantly was literally voted GOAT. That should really ice the discussion. If you really do want to ignore that due to wilt's all-nba's, you should keep in mind that KG, Kareem, Kobe, Lebron all have more.

Literally by any sort of criterion, wilt was russ's second fiddle as an overall player.

You have to be pretty anti-Wilt (or maybe just uninformed?) to believe he doesn't have a case for GOAT.

You have to be pretty anti-duncan, anti-kg, and anti-Hakeem to believe they don't have cases for GOAT.

See how easy that is?

[freethedevil]

MJ obviously. He was the complete package.

Russell, Kareem, and Lebron all were excellent combinations of longetivty of winning, peak, longetvity and accoaldes.

Wha tmakes jordan's package more "complete" again?

I get the sesnse the "complete package" is just a way to avoid the fact his career lacks any argument thats' unique to him

[freethedevil]

It depends on your criteria.
Guys with a fair shot given a fair criteria:

1. Bill Russell

They guy kept on winning while his cast changed a lot. He had absurd impact as a big and revolutionized the big guys' defense. He could score and was the major scorer for his team on more than one NBA finals. His ts% seems low, but in big times in the playoffs he was actually good. For example in the 62 finals vs Lakers he scored 22.9 PPG to lead the squad on 54.3 FG%. He also shot 46/62 at the FT line. So he was efficient. There are more examples on very good scoring series from him when it mattered the most.

Very good passer for a big man. 4.3 APG for a big man is a good number. His TRB% is among the best in history. Super elite.

An also very interesting fact is that the Celtics were a below average team on offense. So when you want to credit him for his defense you're absolutely right. Winning that much while being, as a team, below average on offense is almost impossible. I think this is one of biggest arguments, that his D was so great that his team won so much without even being average on offense.

Doesn't seem to have a black mark in his career like LBJ 11 vs Dallas, Kobe 04 or Tragic Johnson.

To sum it up: biggest winner of all time, great argument for GOAT defender and that defense having more impact than any offensive player ever had because it really made him win his entire career.

2. Wilt Chamberlain

It's still crazy to think about the things he did. So many crazy records like the 50 PPG season, the 100 point game, super elite rebounding numbers, super durability minute wise... he was literally super man.

And even if he didn't win as much... it can be argued that the Celtics had the better team. Stats wise, records wise, there is no one bigger than Wilt. He also delivered a ton of assists once people said all he could do was score. He proved later in his career he could be an elite defender. So you can say he dominated all aspects of the game.

To sum it up: unbreakable records, absurd durability, great athlete that might have ever walked the earth, dominated all aspects of the game even if not all at once.

3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Stupid good peak. Great longevity. More MVP awards than anyone else. 6 rings, so he was definitely a winner. If you want you can add that even before the NBA this guy was already a winner. Won FMVP with 14 years apart. That gives you a clue for how long he was a great player and winner.

To sum it up: more MVP awards. Greatest longevity at least so far. Winner for a big part of his career.

4. Michael Jordan

6 rings. Best scorer ever in the NBA. 6 FMVPs, 5 MVPs. You can argue he had the greatest peak of all time. Closest thing to Russell winning wise. Dominated as a wing when that had never been done before: all the other GOAT candidates until him were bigs. Lacks a bit of longevity, but does he really need it when in a relatively short career achieved as much or more than all the others? This is a question that has to be well thought, and there it goes it depends on your criteria.

He's also probably the guy who has no black mark in his career. At least nothing like Kobe 04 vs Pistons, LeBron 11 vs Dallas or Tragic Johnson. You get the point.

To sum it up: GOAT scorer. Won a lot even if he doesn't have the longevity of others. Won and dominated an era that wasn't supposed to be a wing era.

5. LeBron James

Coming up for the biggest longevity ever in the league and ready to knock KAJ. Most top 3 finishes ever in the MVP race. 4 MVPs, 3 FMVPs. Arguably the GOAT performance in the finals of all time (2016). Elite in all aspects of the game. Scoring wise he's up there and ready to take the most points ever in the NBA. Most assists by a non guard ever in the NBA. Best peak ever case (in my point of view against MJ, Wilt, Hakeem and Shaq). Has already a ton of records in the playoffs (most points, etc). He just hasn't won as much as Russell, KAJ or MJ. But Wilt didn't too and he is a GOAT candidate. However he seems to be the guy that is flawless from an individual point of view: has the peak, has the prime, has the longevity.

To sum it up: He might come up with the best combo available with peak, prime and longevity. He'll end up having a case for GOAT in all those. Dominated all aspects of the game and all at once like nobody ever done before. And for a long long time.

Any of them can be the legit GOAT. Outside those 5 with a fair criteria players might go up and down, but they don't end up as the GOAT.

Yeah, I'm not sure why Wilt would be above the "players might go up and down" thing, when KG and Duncan had similar peaks stastically with much better longetivty. Hakeem has the best peak case outside of lebron, mj, and shaq, and there's a long slew of greater winners.

Because unlike Wilt they don't provide stupid statistical outlier seasons. That's why. They didn't lead the league in scoring, FG%, minutes, hadn't crazy TRB% like Wilt... Should I carry on?

Im' confused, are we comparing overall players, or "goat volume scoring" "goat minuites", and "goat trb%"?

Why the **** should anyone care about "stastical outlier seasons" if none of those seasons are an actual outlier as an overall package?

[dautjazz]

People like to talk about MJ like he was perfect because he went 6-0 in the Finals, but he was far from perfect in the 1996 and 1998 Finals, and he lost to a young Magic in the 2nd round in 1995. To me between what Lebron did in 2016 which tops anything MJ ever did in the playoffs, and his longevity, I have him over MJ. RINGZ aren't everything, if not Russell would be #1.

1. Lebron
2. MJ
3. Kareem
4. Wilt
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Olajuwon
10. Russell

[Hobo4President]

MJ

Also shocked how little love KAJ is getting

[JordansBulls]

People like to talk about MJ like he was perfect because he went 6-0 in the Finals, but he was far from perfect in the 1996 and 1998 Finals, and he lost to a young Magic in the 2nd round in 1995. To me between what Lebron did in 2016 which tops anything MJ ever did in the playoffs, and his longevity, I have him over MJ. RINGZ aren't everything, if not Russell would be #1.

1. Lebron
2. MJ
3. Kareem
4. Wilt
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Olajuwon
10. Russell

I mean Lebron is good and all, but as soon as he went west he went from the finals all the time to missing the playoffs and this all while he had been down in a series each and every year of his career at least 3-2 in a series (2 of the years even with HCA that was won and 3 of the years where he lost with HCA). No other top 10 player has this happened to. All the other top 10 players all time has gone thru a playoff run without being down 3-2 in a series.

Jordan is the GOAT. Never lost with HCA and never was down 3-2 in a series with HCA and never played with anyone who won league or finals mvp for a season either.

[jehosafats]

Micheal was a swell compared to Lebron, who excels at so many different dimensions of the game.

[Hobo4President]

MJ obviously. He was the complete package.

Given how mentally weak LeBron is, I wouldn't even put him in the top 4, but I guess his mentality resonates with much of today's audience. Actually, half of the Jordan era stars may even be on the same tier as 'Bron if you considered more than just physical abilities. Even a borderline star like Kyrie has a heck of a lot more mental fortitude than LeBron does.

This is peak boomer posting lmao

[Repeat 3-peat]

MJ

Also shocked how little love KAJ is getting

100% agreed.

Also Russell was forgotten.

[OdomFan]

Micheal was a swell compared to Lebron, who excels at so many different dimensions of the game.

Not everyone needs to be a Point Forward. MJ Dominated the game his way at the Shooting Guard position. Jeez.

[mysticOscar]

Yet you commented. Probably because your idol's been debunked.

Lebron is jordan+longetivty and kareem+peak

Jordan is

Russell with half the winning and accolades
Kareem with less winning
and
Lebron without longetivty.


Jordan is the bootleg version of all the other goat candidates. Lebron is the hybrid. One has a compelling case, the other's only works when you act like half of nba history didn't happen.

Sorry to rein on ur parade...but Jordan was even > than combining Lebron dominance individually + having gsw type of of success.

But I understand ur a Lebron fan

The bulls you mean?

A shame the bulls were never close to russell's celtics. Jordan didn't even win as much as Kareem.

I'm sorry you dont know history. Obsessesing over Lebron doesn't change that GOAT is an argument over everyone. He doesn't have the team success for russ/kareem, and he doesn't have the longetivty for Lebron.

Sorry to rain on your parade.

Kareem won 6 chips and less than half of that as finals MVP...in fact half of those chips I wouldn't say he was the main guy for lakers.

MJ won 6 chips 6 finals mvp and the clear best player in his team.

Russell was before my time....But I have no issue with ppl putting Russell as goat

[freethedevil]

People like to talk about MJ like he was perfect because he went 6-0 in the Finals, but he was far from perfect in the 1996 and 1998 Finals, and he lost to a young Magic in the 2nd round in 1995. To me between what Lebron did in 2016 which tops anything MJ ever did in the playoffs, and his longevity, I have him over MJ. RINGZ aren't everything, if not Russell would be #1.

1. Lebron
2. MJ
3. Kareem
4. Wilt
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Olajuwon
10. Russell

I mean Lebron is good and all, but as soon as he went west he went from the finals all the time to missing the playoffs

Comparing player's 16th season who was **** by #14?

L.