Official Countdown Grunfeld Era-2nd SuperStar?

[hands11]

EG was on the job and signed Arenas originally, but I recall this story:

http://forums.rotoworld.com/index.php?/ ... k-in-2003/

If Pollin is as intrusive as is presumed, and as loyal and deferential to Unseld as is presumed, and Unseld was promoting an Arenas signing as soon as Eddie Jordan was on board, maybe Pollin told Grunfeld to pursue Arenas. Regardless, it's a good thing EJ wasn't the GM.


EDIT: In case it's not clear what I'm saying Hands11, you don't know that the original Arenas signing (or any other signing) was "clearly all his," but you have a tendency to assign credit to EG for any deal that was a win for the Wizards, and blame to Pollin for any deal that was a loss for the Wizards.

From your post.

"Ernie talked me into Gil," Jordan said on Friday

As I have said many many times, it is really hard to separate owner and GM regarding moves. We would have to be inside the meetings to know who did what. I am only attempting to do it the best way I can using basic logic. This is why most of my post regarding moves like Nene are tagged with ... this was a good move by TED/EG. I dont assign them to EG alone.

If that was still to fuzzy for you, then all you are left with is to do a WITH ABE and WITHOUT ABE.

[montestewart]

This provides some insight into who EG was at the time and how involved Abe was. He was a GM looking for a job post his MIL gig. I mean he came to the Wizards who sucked for years (one of the worst in the league) and for an owner who just back stabbed MJ and already picked the HC. To me, the facts show he was desperate for a GM job.

Your own description makes it sound like EG arrived more concerned with landing a job than with being in charge, and that Pollin was already an intrusive owner calling the shots. Then you assign all credit to EG for Arenas, Jamison, and Butler.

How do we know that Leonsis isn't as intrusive?

It's kind of like when you had the poll to grade EG and didn't include the letter grade F. You keep shifting and altering the system, but you ask people here to judge him according to your own preset criteria within which he cannot be judged a failure. How much is he paying you?

[montestewart]

Look what he did once he got here. While some moves are subject to interpretation because people will take one side or another on how much Abe handcuffed him, some clearly are all his. So look at those moves that are clearly his.

What moves did he make when he got here. Those were clearly EG moves.
Gilbert, AJ, and CB for Kwame. DS for next to nothing. All EG

What moves did he make once Abe was gone. Again, clearly EG moves.

I could take credit for remembering what you wrote better than you did, but the reality is, it's just a little further up on the same page. Not quite the same as:

This is why most of my post regarding moves like Nene are tagged with ... this was a good move by TED/EG. I dont assign them to EG alone.

[hands11]

Look what he did once he got here. While some moves are subject to interpretation because people will take one side or another on how much Abe handcuffed him, some clearly are all his. So look at those moves that are clearly his.

What moves did he make when he got here. Those were clearly EG moves.
Gilbert, AJ, and CB for Kwame. DS for next to nothing. All EG

What moves did he make once Abe was gone. Again, clearly EG moves.

I could take credit for remembering what you wrote better than you did, but the reality is, it's just a little further up on the same page. Not quite the same as:

This is why most of my post regarding moves like Nene are tagged with ... this was a good move by TED/EG. I dont assign them to EG alone.

What exactly are you saying I don't remember ?

I am very consistent in saying it is really hard to separate a GMs moves as purely his own. Owner and GM are a team. Now if it is clear the GM has 100% control and the owner is there just for funding and has no say, that is one thing. Maybe there are teams like that some where.

If you want to attempt to isolate out what is the GMs part of things, one way to do it is to attempt to isolate out the owner. In our situation, we can actually do that which is somewhat rare.

With Abe and Without Abe.

What is so hard to follow about that logic ?

[WizarDynasty]

To say that EG was responsible for Arenas is very very faulty. If anything, the capspace that Jordan labored to create was the sole reason for Arenas. Ernie basically threw all the capspace that jordan created on Arenas. I can understand if Ernie strategically built up the capspace to go after arenas but he didn't. The only starter that Grunfeld has brought to this team via trade was within the last month and that was Nene.
Using Jordan's hard earned capspace to sign Arenas to me is not considered an Achievement.
Basically EG has traded for warn down bench players who returned back to the bench once EG traded them. Caron and Jamison were bench players on playoff teams, and they currently are not more than bench players.
Out of all the drafting over the years that Grunfeld has done, the only solid piece that he has to show for it is Nene.
None of Grunfeld's picks has transformed into longterm playoff caliber starters and he hasn't traded for a starting non injury history playoff caliber starter his entire career as a wizard GM.
If none of your trades and none of your draft picks turns into solid playoff caliber...meaning top 8 at their position, how can you say you accomplished anything.
Using Jordan's years of hard fought capspace and throwing it all at Arenas to me doesn't show much longterm strategy because he was unable to pull off anything close to that during his tenure here.
Had EG figured out a way to trade for a playoff caliber player, or figure out a way to move up in the draft and get a player with playoff caliber potential, i wouldn't be as critical.
One must ask what longterm playoff caliber building blocks as Grunfeld brought to the wizards through GM skills.
He has never brought a two way starting caliber player with no injury history here during his entire tenure on pure GM skills.
Throwing Jordan's years of hardfought capspace at arenas and getting lucky at drafting John Wall. He has moved up in the draft, he hasn't brought young prospects in from years ago that are now outplaying their contract and can get us more than what we paid to acquire them.

[hands11]

This provides some insight into who EG was at the time and how involved Abe was. He was a GM looking for a job post his MIL gig. I mean he came to the Wizards who sucked for years (one of the worst in the league) and for an owner who just back stabbed MJ and already picked the HC. To me, the facts show he was desperate for a GM job.

Your own description makes it sound like EG arrived more concerned with landing a job than with being in charge, and that Pollin was already an intrusive owner calling the shots. Then you assign all credit to EG for Arenas, Jamison, and Butler.

How do we know that Leonsis isn't as intrusive?

It's kind of like when you had the poll to grade EG and didn't include the letter grade F. You keep shifting and altering the system, but you ask people here to judge him according to your own preset criteria within which he cannot be judged a failure. How much is he paying you?

You obviously are not reading what I wrote so there is no sense in repeating it over again. And I am not shifting and altering any system.

People are trying to grade EG and the part that some focus on the muddiest part. I was suggesting they focus on the parts that are not as muddy as a better place to focus. I outlined clearly it is pretty much impossible to grade any GM because a GM and owner are a team. I expect Ted is involved. Actually it is very clear he is involved. I expect most owners are involved. They are spending Millions of dollars.

But here we actually have a rare situation where we have the same GM with two different owners. You want to attempt to grade him, well we the data that few if any other team has. Just separate the same GM with his first owner and compare with the second owner.

Do the moves look the same or different ?

Look, there is no perfect way to do this. There are lots of moving pieces. I am simply trying to isolate them the best we can. Because even if the moves are different between the two owners, you still dont know, how much was the owner? How much was the GM learning ? Even doing it this way still leaves questions. It just leaves fewer of them.

In the end, all you ever really know is how well an Owner and GM did together.

You can assign some things clearly to the owner. For example, was he will to go over the cap. Those are things we can see. But whos idea is was to extend a player and for how much. Not sure you can get to those facts. Owner has a different agenda then a GM. An owner is looking at revenue so that includes marketing. He may want to keep a player because he is a fan favorite and fills the seats. The GM may want to trade that player as an asset. Who wins ? The owner has the final say. Its his cash and his franchise (asset).

[hands11]

To say that EG was responsible for Arenas is very very faulty. If anything, the capspace that Jordan labored to create was the sole reason for Arenas. Ernie basically threw all the capspace that jordan created on Arenas. I can understand if Ernie strategically built up the capspace to go after arenas but he didn't. The only starter that Grunfeld has brought to this team via trade was within the last month and that was Nene.
Using Jordan's hard earned capspace to sign Arenas to me is not considered an Achievement.
Basically EG has traded for warn down bench players who returned back to the bench once EG traded them. Caron and Jamison were bench players on playoff teams, and they currently are not more than bench players.
Out of all the drafting over the years that Grunfeld has done, the only solid piece that he has to show for it is Nene.
None of Grunfeld's picks has transformed into longterm playoff caliber starters and he hasn't traded for a starting non injury history playoff caliber starter his entire career as a wizard GM.
If none of your trades and none of your draft picks turns into solid playoff caliber...meaning top 8 at their position, how can you say you accomplished anything.
Using Jordan's years of hard fought capspace and throwing it all at Arenas to me doesn't show much longterm strategy because he was unable to pull off anything close to that during his tenure here.
Had EG figured out a way to trade for a playoff caliber player, or figure out a way to move up in the draft and get a player with playoff caliber potential, i wouldn't be as critical.
One must ask what longterm playoff caliber building blocks as Grunfeld brought to the wizards through GM skills.
He has never brought a two way starting caliber player with no injury history here during his entire tenure on pure GM skills.
Throwing Jordan's years of hardfought capspace at arenas and getting lucky at drafting John Wall. He has moved up in the draft, he hasn't brought young prospects in from years ago that are now outplaying their contract and can get us more than what we paid to acquire them.

So you believe MJ was a good GM for creating that cap space ?

As for saying Ted/Abe made no good moves, that is beyond clueless. CB for Kwame ? That was pure gold. And saying CB is a bench player is false. He is starter on one of the best teams in the league an he was a starter in Dallas, another one of the best teams in the league.

[Nivek]

To say that EG was responsible for Arenas is very very faulty. If anything, the capspace that Jordan labored to create was the sole reason for Arenas.

Giving Jordan credit for creating that cap space would be like giving me credit for the sun coming up tomorrow. The Howard trade did NOT create any cap space -- the deals they took back expired at the same time. They'd have actually had more cap space if they'd just hung onto Howard. (I don't think that would've been smart for other reasons, but them's the facts.)

The Wizards would have had more cap space, except Jordan inexplicably gave Christian Laettner a 4-year, $20 million contract when he was bidding against precisely no one.

Then he really came close to screwing the pooch on cap room when he signed Bryon Russell to a contract that included a PLAYER option on the 2nd season. Luckily, Jordan helped make the environment so toxic that Russell wanted out so badly that he left $500k on the table. (He was due $1.5 million in that season, but turned it down, then ended up signing for the veterans minimum, which was $1 million).

Ernie basically threw all the capspace that jordan created on Arenas.

He had to because there was an identical offer from the Clippers, and Golden State also offered Arenas the maximum that they could under CBA rules at that time. Ernie did a good job recruiting Arenas -- a job that would have been simpler if Jordan had been smarter managing the cap.

And, Arenas was an absolute bargain during that contract -- All-NBA three years in a row, and one of the game's best offensive weapons.

[JonathanJoseph]

To say that EG was responsible for Arenas is very very faulty. If anything, the capspace that Jordan labored to create was the sole reason for Arenas.

Giving Jordan credit for creating that cap space would be like giving me credit for the sun coming up tomorrow. The Howard trade did NOT create any cap space -- the deals they took back expired at the same time. They'd have actually had more cap space if they'd just hung onto Howard. (I don't think that would've been smart for other reasons, but them's the facts.)

The Wizards would have had more cap space, except Jordan inexplicably gave Christian Laettner a 4-year, $20 million contract when he was bidding against precisely no one.

Then he really came close to screwing the pooch on cap room when he signed Bryon Russell to a contract that included a PLAYER option on the 2nd season. Luckily, Jordan helped make the environment so toxic that Russell wanted out so badly that he left $500k on the table. (He was due $1.5 million in that season, but turned it down, then ended up signing for the veterans minimum, which was $1 million).

Ernie basically threw all the capspace that jordan created on Arenas.

He had to because there was an identical offer from the Clippers, and Golden State also offered Arenas the maximum that they could under CBA rules at that time. Ernie did a good job recruiting Arenas -- a job that would have been simpler if Jordan had been smarter managing the cap.

And, Arenas was an absolute bargain during that contract -- All-NBA three years in a row, and one of the game's best offensive weapons.

Excellent perspective on the revisionist history. Letting Gilbert Arenas walk away for nothing when multiple teams were offering him max contracts was simply not an option. He signed with the Wizards for less.

[Nivek]

JJ -- You seem to be referring to Gil's 2nd contract with the Wizards. I was talking about his first contract -- the one he signed after his 2nd year in the league (with Golden State).

In the re-signing, Golden State also offered him a maximum contract. In that case, Ernie matched the offer, then reminded Arenas that Gil had said he'd take less money. Which ended up happening.

[JonathanJoseph]

JJ -- You seem to be referring to Gil's 2nd contract with the Wizards. I was talking about his first contract -- the one he signed after his 2nd year in the league (with Golden State).

In the re-signing, Golden State also offered him a maximum contract. In that case, Ernie matched the offer, then reminded Arenas that Gil had said he'd take less money. Which ended up happening.

Ah, yes. And that was my point, that technically speaking Grunfeld signed Arenas for less than his market value.

[montestewart]

Look what he did once he got here. While some moves are subject to interpretation because people will take one side or another on how much Abe handcuffed him, some clearly are all his. So look at those moves that are clearly his.

What moves did he make when he got here. Those were clearly EG moves.
Gilbert, AJ, and CB for Kwame. DS for next to nothing. All EG

What moves did he make once Abe was gone. Again, clearly EG moves.

I could take credit for remembering what you wrote better than you did, but the reality is, it's just a little further up on the same page. Not quite the same as:

This is why most of my post regarding moves like Nene are tagged with ... this was a good move by TED/EG. I dont assign them to EG alone.

What exactly are you saying I don't remember ?

I am very consistent in saying it is really hard to separate a GMs moves as purely his own. Owner and GM are a team. Now if it is clear the GM has 100% control and the owner is there just for funding and has no say, that is one thing. Maybe there are teams like that some where.

If you want to attempt to isolate out what is the GMs part of things, one way to do it is to attempt to isolate out the owner. In our situation, we can actually do that which is somewhat rare.

With Abe and Without Abe.

What is so hard to follow about that logic ?

There's no logic to follow. Regardless of what you're thinking, your arguments are inconsistent. Rather than cite any other evidence, I will just direct you to your own contradictory posts, which you (perhaps inadvertently) quoted while trying to respond with a claim of consistency.

With Abe, Without Abe. Isn't that a U2 song?

I have helpfully bolded the parts where you say the moves made after Pollin was gone were clearly EG's moves, which contradicts your claim of consistency (also bolded). You also claim that you can separate out those [good] moves that are clearly EG's from those [bad] moves which Pollin may very well have had a hand in (though, as you admit, there it's hard to tell). I think we've covered this tendency of yours previously. In what alternate universe can you backtrack from all this contradiction and inconsistency? The hands11th dimension?

PS: I'm glad you've at least gotten to a point where you're not even sure whether you can credit EG with anything. No basis to hire him, but (he can count his lucky stars) no basis to fire him either. I WAS ONLY FOLLOWING ORDERS! (Unless it was a good move.)

[hands11]

JJ -- You seem to be referring to Gil's 2nd contract with the Wizards. I was talking about his first contract -- the one he signed after his 2nd year in the league (with Golden State).

In the re-signing, Golden State also offered him a maximum contract. In that case, Ernie matched the offer, then reminded Arenas that Gil had said he'd take less money. Which ended up happening.

Ah, yes. And that was my point, that technically speaking Grunfeld signed Arenas for less than his market value.

Abe and EG

[hands11]

montestewart

Wow. You are really clueless my friend. Either that or you are a lawyer the way you twist things around. I think it more likely the first though.

I have repeated repeated repeated said how hard it is to separate a GMs moves from an owner. They are a team. What I was attempting to do there was find the window where you were most likely to see the GMs influence ( when he first got here would be one ) and once he was no longer partnered with Abe. But unless an owner turns the entire operations over the GM, it is always a plan the owner has signed off on or one he may have even direct..ie. see Ted.

The conversation started off just talking about the GM so I was attempting to frame it with Abe and without to isolate what part was Abe. But it is more accurate to say with Abe and with Ted which I later did.. There was a small window when he was with neither though even then there would be other influences such as preparing the team for sale. One has to think he had a strong feeling that would be to Ted. That that point he would have been serving two masters. Not an easy line to walk.

But I'm done. Its only fun if you are in a debate with someone who can engage in one and further the conversation. You clearly can not interested in doing that.

[Jay81]

Any reason why eg didn't sign small forward Gerard green who is blowing up?

[closg00]

Any reason why eg didn't sign small forward Gerard green who is blowing up?

I'll be G*d-Damn!!
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/recap;_ylt= ... 2012040817

Ernie is always a beat too-slow, always reactive rather than pro-active. The Nets were pro-active and they get the find. It takes an injury to get Ernie off his ass. All he had to do was take our advice in Ed Woods thread

[Jay81]

So Ernie gave up on Lester Hudson and alonzo gee. Didn't sign Gerald Green or Jeremy Lin. But he kept mo Evans..signed roger mason and kept Rashard Lewis

[montestewart]

hands, if you ever find yourself a defendant in criminal court, whatever you do, DO NOT take the stand in your own defense.

[montestewart]

Any reason why eg didn't sign small forward Gerard green who is blowing up?

I'll be G*d-Damn!!
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/recap;_ylt= ... 2012040817

Ernie is always a beat too-slow, always reactive rather than pro-active. The Nets were pro-active and they get the find. It takes an injury to get Ernie off his ass. All he had to do was take our advice in Ed Woods thread

And as Jay81 notes, he's missed on a few. Gerald Green maybe will come back to earth, and these players (Gee, Green, etc.) are usually only at the margins of a team's success. (Lin though...whew!) I more worry about how often he's "a beat too-slow" on bigger things.

[JonathanJoseph]

Any reason why eg didn't sign small forward Gerard green who is blowing up?

I'll be G*d-Damn!!
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/recap;_ylt= ... 2012040817

Ernie is always a beat too-slow, always reactive rather than pro-active. The Nets were pro-active and they get the find. It takes an injury to get Ernie off his ass. All he had to do was take our advice in Ed Woods thread

And as Jay81 notes, he's missed on a few. Gerald Green maybe will come back to earth, and these players (Gee, Green, etc.) are usually only at the margins of a team's success. (Lin though...whew!) I more worry about how often he's "a beat too-slow" on bigger things.

We could make the same arguments that he's signed all these players out of nowhere. Grunfeld has been nothing short of great with 2nd round draft picks. Michael Redd, Andray Blatche, Domimic McGuire and now Shelvin Mack.

Gerald Green has 10 years of NBA footage that shows that he has sucked. If the lightbulb went on, it's not Grunfeld's fault for not foreseeing that would happen all of a sudden. If anything, Grunfeld's flaw has been being overly patient with players so the Gerald Green complaint holds no water.