Page 24 of 24

Re: Knicks - Nets PG

Posted: Thu Dec 2, 2021 5:59 am
by BugginOut
Spree2Houston wrote:
BugginOut wrote:
Spree2Houston wrote:Only thing holding Obi back is a consistent 3-pointer. Once he has that in his bag, he will overtake Randle

I’m the biggest Obi homer there is, but Obi still needs the defense, rebounding and passing if he wants to over take Randle.

If Randle keeps playing like he did last night, he will be All-NBA level again, which is a high bar to reach.


His assists are a product of higher usage/having the ball in his hands more. His rebounding is good but he’s also playing 35mpg while Obi is playing 11mpg. His defense is better than Obi right now. But his effort comes and goes each game.

Listen, let Thibs coach up Obi. You think IQ becomes the defensive force he is today if Thibs handed him the keys from day one?

Let Thibs be extra hard on Obi so that he can be a perfect player going forward. Obi isn’t winning us the chip this year so we might as well develop him the right way. If Thibs is coaching him now to play 15 minutes of perfect basketball, eventually he will be able to play 30 minutes of perfect basketball.

Re: Knicks - Nets PG

Posted: Thu Dec 2, 2021 6:11 am
by F N 11
bearadonisdna wrote:


This dude was a Knicks fan, he’s the worst of the worst of bandwagon.

Re: Knicks - Nets PG

Posted: Thu Dec 2, 2021 6:27 am
by BBALLER4FR
bearadonisdna wrote:



Da fuq is he even twaukin aboot? Canadian ramblings.

Re: Knicks - Nets PG

Posted: Thu Dec 2, 2021 2:34 pm
by Prokorov
JohnStarksTheDunk wrote:
DaGawd wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
Alo, I'm still surprised teams dont just double KD hard after the catch. he is AWFUL passing out of double teams. only toronto seems to have realized this and always holds him in check and beats us or gives us a run. I figured thibs would too... maybe saving it for potentially bigger game?



And agreed doubling Durant is definitely something I would’ve tried but I could see why Thibs didn’t with Harden also being out there. If he kicks it to James and your defense is already in scramble mode Harden is almost certain to exploit it imo


We also defended KD relatively well. He didn't shoot well for most of the game, going 9-23 overall. He did hit a couple of daggers just before Julius flipped out, but those were actually well contested. KD just nailed them anyway, because he's that good.

That said, we doubled KD on the final play and it nearly worked out. If you're playing against a team with KD and Harden and James Johnson ends up with the final shot, you've done your job as a defense.


Thats a good point. KD didnt have a great game by his standards.

The last play and the one a few minutes before are kind of what im getting at. you double him and he is going to give it up, when he does, he kind of scrambles and often the ball is tipped or ends up in in-ideal hands. the bulk of his turnovers are passing out of double teams.

I think the risk is lower doubling him hard alot. i think you would create more turnovers and force overall less efficient shots then not doing so.

but again, as you mentioned you held KD to about as good as you reasonably can and lost on the final play of the game where our worst player on the floor was asked to score. so, i guess take that every time

Re: Knicks - Nets PG

Posted: Thu Dec 2, 2021 2:37 pm
by Prokorov
BBALLER4FR wrote:
bearadonisdna wrote:



Da fuq is he even twaukin aboot? Canadian ramblings.


The Nets have fans bro...

Me, Jeb, Ryan Rucco's kid, Evan Roberts, and like 3 or 4 of KD's burner accounts.

In all seriousness i never understood why this was like a thing. The Knicks have been a fixture of the metro area forever. The Nets had to sell Dr. J day 1 in the NBA and then moved to Jersey. And really everything south of bergen country is basically just an extension of PA/Philly/Maryland. the majority of NJ doesnt even get the Nets on TB they get the sixers... so for like 40 years you had this northeast area of NJ, who come from roots who rooted for the knicks, most of whom probably work in manhattan, who even get Nets games on TV, while playing in the meadowlands which you cant walk too and until 1995 couldnt take a bus to in the middle of a swamp. We didnt have anything close to a star until... derrick coleman? Buck was great but he wasnt flashy. we had both Kings for like a season or 2. It wasnt really until the run of Cassell/MArbury/Kidd we really had anything, and that buillt the small base of fans we have now. Moving to brooklyn will help, getting stars helps more. but it still will take years for these young KD fans to grow up and even then the knicks will still have an enormous base.

So of course the nets have no fans, of course we will never/not for like 30+ years approach knick fan numbers... and really... like why does that even matter (other than having awesome home court advantage maybe?)

Re: Knicks - Nets PG

Posted: Thu Dec 2, 2021 3:09 pm
by BBALLER4FR
Prokorov wrote:
BBALLER4FR wrote:
bearadonisdna wrote:



Da fuq is he even twaukin aboot? Canadian ramblings.


The Nets have fans bro...

Me, Jeb, Ryan Rucco's kid, Evan Roberts, and like 3 or 4 of KD's burner accounts.

In all seriousness i never understood why this was like a thing. The Knicks have been a fixture of the metro area forever. The Nets had to sell Dr. J day 1 in the NBA and then moved to Jersey. And really everything south of bergen country is basically just an extension of PA/Philly/Maryland. the majority of NJ doesnt even get the Nets on TB they get the sixers... so for like 40 years you had this northeast area of NJ, who come from roots who rooted for the knicks, most of whom probably work in manhattan, who even get Nets games on TV, while playing in the meadowlands which you cant walk too and until 1995 couldnt take a bus to in the middle of a swamp. We didnt have anything close to a star until... derrick coleman? Buck was great but he wasnt flashy. we had both Kings for like a season or 2. It wasnt really until the run of Cassell/MArbury/Kidd we really had anything, and that buillt the small base of fans we have now. Moving to brooklyn will help, getting stars helps more. but it still will take years for these young KD fans to grow up and even then the knicks will still have an enormous base.

So of course the nets have no fans, of course we will never/not for like 30+ years approach knick fan numbers... and really... like why does that even matter (other than having awesome home court advantage maybe?)



And 1!

But I was more looking at the Canadian saying a whole bunch of nothing to explain why he jumped ship from being a Knick fan to a Nets fan. He spent 10+ minutes to explain some $#!t nobody even cares about. Nobody yearning for the Maple rationale.

Re: Knicks - Nets PG

Posted: Thu Dec 2, 2021 3:32 pm
by Spree2Houston
BugginOut wrote:
Spree2Houston wrote:
BugginOut wrote:I’m the biggest Obi homer there is, but Obi still needs the defense, rebounding and passing if he wants to over take Randle.

If Randle keeps playing like he did last night, he will be All-NBA level again, which is a high bar to reach.


His assists are a product of higher usage/having the ball in his hands more. His rebounding is good but he’s also playing 35mpg while Obi is playing 11mpg. His defense is better than Obi right now. But his effort comes and goes each game.

Listen, let Thibs coach up Obi. You think IQ becomes the defensive force he is today if Thibs handed him the keys from day one?

Let Thibs be extra hard on Obi so that he can be a perfect player going forward. Obi isn’t winning us the chip this year so we might as well develop him the right way. If Thibs is coaching him now to play 15 minutes of perfect basketball, eventually he will be able to play 30 minutes of perfect basketball.


Lol the same coach who wouldn’t bench Payton until it was too late

Re: Knicks - Nets PG

Posted: Thu Dec 2, 2021 3:45 pm
by moocow007
My take on this game...

1. I don't normally complain about ref calls but the refs screwed the Knicks a LOT throughout this game.

And it was more than just the 2 calls that the NBA came out and admitted the refs blew. Yep, the NBA actually came out and admitted that the refs blew at least 2 calls in the game (critical calls as it turned out).

https://nypost.com/2021/12/02/nba-admits-knicks-were-victim-of-two-bad-calls-vs-nets/

2. Even though the refs were clearly skewing calls to the Nets favor, Randle still needs to not do stupid stuff like getting that tech and, more importantly, let it get to him and impact his game.

I mentioned during the NBNF post game podcast that I think part of the issues that Randle has had this season is with stupid stuff like this getting to him (and this type of stuff started really to be a problem in the Hawks series last season). Even if Randle is right that he's not getting calls because refs are telling him that he's too big and strong and that they miss calls (which according to Randle is what one of the refs actually told him) he can't let it get into his head. That's what top tier guys do, they don't let this stupid stuff impact their game. If Randle wants to be that guy and thinks he is, he needs to knock this **** off.

There's actually an interesting tidbit from Shaq about this very thing. Shaq, who probably more than anyone in NBA history this side of Wilt Chamberlain was the guy at the short end of these types of non calls. Shaq actually said that (when he was playing) one ref told him that he gets fouled every time he gets the ball but they can't keep calling the fouls LOL.


Watch on YouTube


Both Shaq and Charles agreed with Randle but both said that you can't let it get to you and INSTEAD you just need to learn how to make sure that the other players know that if you're going to foul me cause you think they won't call it, that I'm going to make you feel it LOL. Now that won't work in today's NBA with all the ticky tack fouls but I think their point is that you counter these non calls by going at it even hard and more physically. Hopefully Randle doesn't stop attacking the basket because of this and start settling for 3's and those midrange 2's that just aren't falling for him. When Randle attacks the basket quickly when he sees an opening (not when the defense is set and he's doing his pound the ball to death thing) he's just impossible to stop.

3. Having Burks out there at the starting point actually outlines a problem that this team has had for quite a long time...often playing 3 or (at best) 4 on 5 every time they have the ball.

We all should know this but I get the sense that folks don't know it and see it well enough nor how significant an issue this problem is. Especially folks that keep on wanting to blame Randle for the fate of the Knicks.

Realize that up until 2 games ago, the Knicks starting PG since probably Jeremy Lin has been almost a none factor on most things offensively. Those things that you want and expect your starting PG to be able to do ESPECIALLY if you want to be a playoff team this team has simply NOT HAD. Now it's one thing that your starting PG can't really score at a high level BUT can execute offensives and get everyone else easy shots. But for the most part the Knicks starting PG hasn't even been able to do that right?

So what that does is it puts more pressure on someone playing another position than the position that should be responsible for these things to do it. Think about it. When you need someone other than your starting PG to basically create easy shots and get everyone involved it immediately puts your offense behind the 8-ball.

Now that may still be something you can live with IF the other 4 guys on the floor when you have the ball have some significant degree of offensive competency. The problem with the Knicks? They don't. And no it's not just Randle not being able to carry the load of a true no.1, it's their center basically being a none factor on the offensive end, no true no.2, etc.

Nerlens Noel and Mitchell Robinson have no offensive shot creation ability. They have no refined post moves. No mid range shot. No hook shots. No 3 point shots. Robinson can finish (though "Fat Mitch" isn't as good as he used to be in that area). Noel? Bad hands prevents him from being able to catch the type of passes that come before finishing. But even if Robinson gets back in shape and becomes more of a factor as a finisher and Noel finds some way of actually being able to hold onto a ball, not having a PG that can actually maximize their finishing ability is a killer. Robinson (in shape) being an elite finisher on paper doesn't mean much if he only gets a couple of those a game cause their PG's don't have the feel to maximize that on paper skill...and can't do anything else on offense otherwise.

The net result? We have to watch Randle try to do what he can't do and shouldn't need to do. One of the reasons why Randle seems to do better with Rose and Taj on the floor is that those are for the most part been the only PG and C that isn't offensively challenged. Their presence on the floor prevents teams from "simply" just focusing on him (Randle). And as a result Randle is more capable offensively. Players don't exist in a vacuum. How well they do is dependent on who else is on the floor. That's particularly true for guys that are not top tier superstars. The superstars can do what they do regardless of who else is on the floor with them. That's why they're superstars and get paid so much and win. Knicks don't have such a player so they MUST MUST MUST win by being a well balanced team.

I pointed out this offseason that one of the things that the Knicks needed is to find a C option that is not offensively challenged. Didn't have to be a starter. Just someone that can avoid having the Knicks always be at least one man short when the have the ball. And I've said as well that they need to look to acquire a PG (again doesn't even have to be a starting PG) that can actually get other players easy shots. That's especially important if you are going to have only 3 of the other 4 positions on the floor able to even do anything offensively on their own.

4. Glass is half full and half empty.

While I loved the way the Knicks competed against the Nets and that they should have won had the refs not been wearing Nets jerseys, the reality still is that they do not have enough talent at key positions (see above) to be able to get them where they need to go.

Even if Burks continues to average 20+ and do what he's done since he's been inserted into the starting lineup (unlikely to say the least) they still don't have enough. They need more talent. Hopefully IF the plan is to get as far as they can and win as much as possible (and thereby setting the stage for top tier players wanting to come here) that they continue to look to make some moves.

Guys like Jerami Grant (length and defensive versatility without giving up anything offensively) or Ricky Rubio (easy shots for others) or Kelly Olynyk (a C that can actually warrant being guarded when he's one the floor)...those are the types of guys that are more realistically gettable (unlike the Lillards and Beals of the world) and that while not world beating can significantly improve this teams by addressing holes in their current roster that contribute a lot to their current issues and the excessive need for their current players to be playing beyond reasonable expectations for them to be successful.

If you listen to most of the NBA pundits on the air the one clear near consensus is that regardless of how Thibs can get teams to perform, the Knicks simply don't have enough talent. And that's from Randle on down. And it's not just top tier talent, it's talent that can make this team a well rounded team so that a top tier coach like Thibs can actually get them further. A bigger stone for Thibs to attempt to wring blood from.

Re: Knicks - Nets PG

Posted: Thu Dec 2, 2021 4:18 pm
by sol537
I noticed, especially the last time, that when Noel was on the floor, the Nets just completely ignored it and loaded up on every other player whenever they made any sort of move. What an offensive liability.

Re: Knicks - Nets PG

Posted: Thu Dec 2, 2021 4:47 pm
by Prokorov
BBALLER4FR wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
BBALLER4FR wrote:
Da fuq is he even twaukin aboot? Canadian ramblings.


The Nets have fans bro...

Me, Jeb, Ryan Rucco's kid, Evan Roberts, and like 3 or 4 of KD's burner accounts.

In all seriousness i never understood why this was like a thing. The Knicks have been a fixture of the metro area forever. The Nets had to sell Dr. J day 1 in the NBA and then moved to Jersey. And really everything south of bergen country is basically just an extension of PA/Philly/Maryland. the majority of NJ doesnt even get the Nets on TB they get the sixers... so for like 40 years you had this northeast area of NJ, who come from roots who rooted for the knicks, most of whom probably work in manhattan, who even get Nets games on TV, while playing in the meadowlands which you cant walk too and until 1995 couldnt take a bus to in the middle of a swamp. We didnt have anything close to a star until... derrick coleman? Buck was great but he wasnt flashy. we had both Kings for like a season or 2. It wasnt really until the run of Cassell/MArbury/Kidd we really had anything, and that buillt the small base of fans we have now. Moving to brooklyn will help, getting stars helps more. but it still will take years for these young KD fans to grow up and even then the knicks will still have an enormous base.

So of course the nets have no fans, of course we will never/not for like 30+ years approach knick fan numbers... and really... like why does that even matter (other than having awesome home court advantage maybe?)



And 1!

But I was more looking at the Canadian saying a whole bunch of nothing to explain why he jumped ship from being a Knick fan to a Nets fan. He spent 10+ minutes to explain some $#!t nobody even cares about. Nobody yearning for the Maple rationale.


you aint a fan if you switching teams. thats how i see it. bye felcicia.

Re: Knicks - Nets PG

Posted: Thu Dec 2, 2021 6:20 pm
by moocow007
sol537 wrote:I noticed, especially the last time, that when Noel was on the floor, the Nets just completely ignored it and loaded up on every other player whenever they made any sort of move. What an offensive liability.


Exactly. And considering that other than 2 games of Burks the Knicks starting PG position has been pretty much a dud (going back to 2 seasons of Payton at least), it means that now teams can just focus on 3 guys (Randle, Fournier and Barrett this season). And none of those 3 guys can create shots well when they have that much defensive attention...especially from teams that know how to play defense (i.e. most every playoff team). Ergo why you have Fournier kinda standing around doing nothing, Barrett getting blocked when he tries anything and Randle...dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, flub (turnover or ugly forced jumper). And it's not like any of these guys are great at cutting to the basket or getting open cause it's not a big part of their game historically. It's why I've been saying that the Knicks offense is predictable and easy to defend. And why they struggle except in games when their 3's are falling or Rose has his stretches. That's not going to be enough to get them anywhere in the playoffs where every other team also plays defense like Thibs Knicks do. Now if they have a C that can actually do something on offense, even for 10-15 minutes a game and/or a PG that can actually create his own show OR get other players (like a Randle or Barrett or Fournier or Mitch) the ball when they are already moving to the basket THEN they'd be more imposing AND guys like Randle, Barrett and Fournier would likely be more efficient offensively cause they wouldn't have to be working as hard trying to do things they aren't the greatest at all 48 minutes and you can mix and match a bit better.

Re: Knicks - Nets PG

Posted: Thu Dec 2, 2021 6:35 pm
by Capn'O
Prokorov wrote:
BBALLER4FR wrote:
bearadonisdna wrote:



Da fuq is he even twaukin aboot? Canadian ramblings.


The Nets have fans bro...

Me, Jeb, Ryan Rucco's kid, Evan Roberts, and like 3 or 4 of KD's burner accounts.

In all seriousness i never understood why this was like a thing. The Knicks have been a fixture of the metro area forever. The Nets had to sell Dr. J day 1 in the NBA and then moved to Jersey. And really everything south of bergen country is basically just an extension of PA/Philly/Maryland. the majority of NJ doesnt even get the Nets on TB they get the sixers... so for like 40 years you had this northeast area of NJ, who come from roots who rooted for the knicks, most of whom probably work in manhattan, who even get Nets games on TV, while playing in the meadowlands which you cant walk too and until 1995 couldnt take a bus to in the middle of a swamp. We didnt have anything close to a star until... derrick coleman? Buck was great but he wasnt flashy. we had both Kings for like a season or 2. It wasnt really until the run of Cassell/MArbury/Kidd we really had anything, and that buillt the small base of fans we have now. Moving to brooklyn will help, getting stars helps more. but it still will take years for these young KD fans to grow up and even then the knicks will still have an enormous base.

So of course the nets have no fans, of course we will never/not for like 30+ years approach knick fan numbers... and really... like why does that even matter (other than having awesome home court advantage maybe?)


First Dollar Bills and now you. Little Brother is recognizing their place in the world.

Look, coming to Brooklyn the Nets had this whole marketing thing of taking over New York and the fans bought into it. It just wasn't happening and, as you say, even really building the home base still needs awhile to take. Like, we may be recovering from a severe meth addiction and you have been getting straight As but we're still the Big Brother and nothing changed about that. As long as that is well recognized I have no beef. It's a big city. We haven't done any meth in awhile now and the focus is getting back on our own two feet and finally living up somewhere close to our potential.

As you say - with a good team and more favorable locale, the Nets base will clearly build. But the Knicks ain't going anywhere... you know... unless we relapse.

Re: Knicks - Nets PG

Posted: Thu Dec 2, 2021 7:17 pm
by Prokorov
moocow007 wrote:
sol537 wrote:I noticed, especially the last time, that when Noel was on the floor, the Nets just completely ignored it and loaded up on every other player whenever they made any sort of move. What an offensive liability.


Exactly. And considering that other than 2 games of Burks the Knicks starting PG position has been pretty much a dud (going back to 2 seasons of Payton at least), it means that now teams can just focus on 3 guys (Randle, Fournier and Barrett this season). And none of those 3 guys can create shots well when they have that much defensive attention...especially from teams that know how to play defense (i.e. most every playoff team). Ergo why you have Fournier kinda standing around doing nothing, Barrett getting blocked when he tries anything and Randle...dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, flub (turnover or ugly forced jumper). And it's not like any of these guys are great at cutting to the basket or getting open cause it's not a big part of their game historically. It's why I've been saying that the Knicks offense is predictable and easy to defend. And why they struggle except in games when their 3's are falling or Rose has his stretches. That's not going to be enough to get them anywhere in the playoffs where every other team also plays defense like Thibs Knicks do. Now if they have a C that can actually do something on offense, even for 10-15 minutes a game and/or a PG that can actually create his own show OR get other players (like a Randle or Barrett or Fournier or Mitch) the ball when they are already moving to the basket THEN they'd be more imposing AND guys like Randle, Barrett and Fournier would likely be more efficient offensively cause they wouldn't have to be working as hard trying to do things they aren't the greatest at all 48 minutes and you can mix and match a bit better.


Yeah and its less to even do with winning. Devils won 3 cups, Rangers/Islanders fans still have a bigger base... even during those cup runs.

Re: Knicks - Nets PG

Posted: Thu Dec 2, 2021 8:50 pm
by KnixtapeH20
Capn'O wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
BBALLER4FR wrote:
Da fuq is he even twaukin aboot? Canadian ramblings.


The Nets have fans bro...

Me, Jeb, Ryan Rucco's kid, Evan Roberts, and like 3 or 4 of KD's burner accounts.

In all seriousness i never understood why this was like a thing. The Knicks have been a fixture of the metro area forever. The Nets had to sell Dr. J day 1 in the NBA and then moved to Jersey. And really everything south of bergen country is basically just an extension of PA/Philly/Maryland. the majority of NJ doesnt even get the Nets on TB they get the sixers... so for like 40 years you had this northeast area of NJ, who come from roots who rooted for the knicks, most of whom probably work in manhattan, who even get Nets games on TV, while playing in the meadowlands which you cant walk too and until 1995 couldnt take a bus to in the middle of a swamp. We didnt have anything close to a star until... derrick coleman? Buck was great but he wasnt flashy. we had both Kings for like a season or 2. It wasnt really until the run of Cassell/MArbury/Kidd we really had anything, and that buillt the small base of fans we have now. Moving to brooklyn will help, getting stars helps more. but it still will take years for these young KD fans to grow up and even then the knicks will still have an enormous base.

So of course the nets have no fans, of course we will never/not for like 30+ years approach knick fan numbers... and really... like why does that even matter (other than having awesome home court advantage maybe?)


First Dollar Bills and now you. Little Brother is recognizing their place in the world.

Look, coming to Brooklyn the Nets had this whole marketing thing of taking over New York and the fans bought into it. It just wasn't happening and, as you say, even really building the home base still needs awhile to take. Like, we may be recovering from a severe meth addiction and you have been getting straight As but we're still the Big Brother and nothing changed about that. As long as that is well recognized I have no beef. It's a big city. We haven't done any meth in awhile now and the focus is getting back on our own two feet and finally living up somewhere close to our potential.

As you say - with a good team and more favorable locale, the Nets base will clearly build. But the Knicks ain't going anywhere... you know... unless we relapse.

Exactly right Cap. That's why Knicks fans cant stand the nets, one of the many... No real Knicks fan could ever root for the **** nets they will always be New Jersey.

Re: Knicks - Nets PG

Posted: Thu Dec 2, 2021 9:52 pm
by moocow007
Prokorov wrote:
moocow007 wrote:
sol537 wrote:I noticed, especially the last time, that when Noel was on the floor, the Nets just completely ignored it and loaded up on every other player whenever they made any sort of move. What an offensive liability.


Exactly. And considering that other than 2 games of Burks the Knicks starting PG position has been pretty much a dud (going back to 2 seasons of Payton at least), it means that now teams can just focus on 3 guys (Randle, Fournier and Barrett this season). And none of those 3 guys can create shots well when they have that much defensive attention...especially from teams that know how to play defense (i.e. most every playoff team). Ergo why you have Fournier kinda standing around doing nothing, Barrett getting blocked when he tries anything and Randle...dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, flub (turnover or ugly forced jumper). And it's not like any of these guys are great at cutting to the basket or getting open cause it's not a big part of their game historically. It's why I've been saying that the Knicks offense is predictable and easy to defend. And why they struggle except in games when their 3's are falling or Rose has his stretches. That's not going to be enough to get them anywhere in the playoffs where every other team also plays defense like Thibs Knicks do. Now if they have a C that can actually do something on offense, even for 10-15 minutes a game and/or a PG that can actually create his own show OR get other players (like a Randle or Barrett or Fournier or Mitch) the ball when they are already moving to the basket THEN they'd be more imposing AND guys like Randle, Barrett and Fournier would likely be more efficient offensively cause they wouldn't have to be working as hard trying to do things they aren't the greatest at all 48 minutes and you can mix and match a bit better.


Yeah and its less to even do with winning. Devils won 3 cups, Rangers/Islanders fans still have a bigger base... even during those cup runs.


Not sure what this has to do with what you quoted. But the Devils won 3 cups cause they built balanced and talented teams that complimented one another exceptionally well. The Rangers and Islanders haven't. Fan base isn't the problem. It's the front office.