PG: Nets Edge Out Bucks in Game 2

[BucksRule18]

All the anti-Giannis forces out in full gear. And 90% of will claim you've always been saying this. Ya.

The geniuses here want to trade Giannis, Middleton, Lopez, Dante, and who else? Sounds great. Here's another great idea. Since it's a talent issue, let's keep Bud. Five year extension for Bud and trade all the players.

I think most people here want Bud gone pronto. We also love Giannis and appreciate everything he's done for this team. We're just coming to a realization that the only way this team will compete with elite teams is if Giannis becomes a 1B option to 1A superstar who can shoot and make FT's. Don't get me wrong, as a 1B option Giannis could still be more important than some 1A type players. It's sort of like the Lakers with a healthy Lebron and Davis. Davis as the 1B option is likely more important to the team success, but having Lebron as the 1A option allows Davis to play to his strengths, That being said, with any scenario described above Giannis has to improve his FT shooting. We need him to attack, get fouled and make FT's.

[truly]

Lol at mitchel,paul,young or lillard being mentioned in here.Those guys aren't winning anything if you put them in place of Giannis.

I think that even with his shortcomings Giannis is definitely a superstar. I'm just worried that the Nets have us figured out, and just like the previous Raptors and Heat losses, we have no answers. At least someone like Lillard or Mitchell can get hot in one or 2 games and pull a rabbit out of a hat all on their own. A pure shooter could also open up more space for Middleton and Jrue.

Giannis needs a shrink.Dude went from trying to break through the heat wall to being scared of blake griffins corpse.

[BigO]

All the anti-Giannis forces out in full gear. And 90% of will claim you've always been saying this. Ya.

The geniuses here want to trade Giannis, Middleton, Lopez, Dante, and who else? Sounds great. Here's another great idea. Since it's a talent issue, let's keep Bud. Five year extension for Bud and trade all the players.

I think most people here want Bud gone pronto. We also love Giannis and appreciate everything he's done for this team. We're just coming to a realization that the only way this team will compete with elite teams is if Giannis becomes a 1B option to 1A superstar who can shoot and make FT's. Don't get me wrong, as a 1B option Giannis could still be more important than some 1A type players. It's sort of like the Lakers with a healthy Lebron and Davis. Davis as the 1B option is likely more important to the team success, but having Lebron as the 1A option allows Davis to play to his strengths, That being said, with any scenario described above Giannis has to improve his FT shooting. We need him to attack, get fouled and make FT's.

You may be right on your concerns for Giannis. I don't think so, but it's an argument that has some validity.

But it doesn't explain the total collapse the last two games. It doesn't explain why Boston could give the Nets a better series so far than the Bucks have, given that everyone knows the Bucks have far superior talent than Boston.

I think it is a coaching issue far more than a talent issue, although nothing is 100% one way. Some posters think it's too much for a coach to tell a player like Giannis to stop shooting threes (a pretty minor issue in my view but one indicative of Bud). I've delineated before how Bud in so many ways is a very soft coach and it shows in his defense, the minutes he plays his players, to a myriad of other areas.

The Bucks need a leader with the ability to change, to demand excellence and to hold players accountable. Bud has none of that.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

All the anti-Giannis forces out in full gear. And 90% of will claim you've always been saying this. Ya.

im on it and i wont lay off it. he makes the supermax and the entire world has him figured out besides the homers. theres something to it "how the other fans feel".

now as it relates to what some of us have felt previously.....i will admit i was in full denial after the mvp years. BUT... theres some sigs floating around this board from posts i made before that. those sigs are looking pretty accurate now.

there is a way you win in this league, in college, in high school.......today shooting matters more than ever....choking always matters.... elevating your teammates play and confidence matters.....smart unselfish basketball accepting your limitations and playing a role matters.

those are his issues and they dont seem to be improving. the issues are massive and so is his contract.

[machu46]

As always, there's a lot of different degrees to the discussion. Where I fall is that Giannis is a top 5 player in the league but simply should not be the primary ball-handler/creator. Offensively, you can still build the offense around him as the focal point, but he should be the screener/finisher around which everything else moves. Put him in the dunker spot with players that can quickly make the pass to him, put him as the roll man in pick and rolls, and the offense thrives. When Giannis takes over as the lead ball-handler trying to attack down hill, it makes the offense easier to defend. Even worse when he takes over as the lead ball-handler and DOESN'T try to attack down hill.

Is that the only issue or even the main issue in this series right now? Eh, probably not, though I do think it causes a lot of ripple effects. But on top of that, our team has forgotten how to shoot (excluding Giannis, we were at 40% on open/wide open 3's during the regular season, down to 31% this postseason (propped up by Forbes' shooting), and 24% against the Nets). The defense has been laughable against Brooklyn after looking amazing against Miami. We've rolled with this Giannis/Tucker/Brook lineup that was doomed to fail before the games even started. And we seem to be prioritizing stopping Durant when we should really be trying to stay home on everyone else and force Durant to do more heavy lifting.

[BucksRule18]

All the anti-Giannis forces out in full gear. And 90% of will claim you've always been saying this. Ya.

im on it and i wont lay off it. he makes the supermax and the entire world has him figured out besides the homers. theres something to it "how the other fans feel".

now as it relates to what some of us have felt previously.....i will admit i was in full denial after the mvp years. BUT... theres some sigs floating around this board from posts i made before that. those sigs are looking pretty accurate now.

there is a way you win in this league, in college, in high school.......today shooting matters more than ever, choking always matters, and elevating your teammates with smart unselfish play accepting your limitations matters more than anything.

those are his issues and they dont seem to be improving. the issues are massive and so is his contract.

I'll go back to the AD comparison. When healthy AD is probably a top 5 player in this league. However, with him and Jrue in NO, they couldn't accomplish anything. Having someone like Lebron take on the leadership role, really helped AD play to his strengths. I could be wrong, but unlike AD, I don't think Giannis will accept that secondary role. He wants to be team leader and primary ball handler when going up against other super stars. He basically sees himself as Kobe, but unfortunately he isn't.

[paulpressey25]

It's not just the Jabari pick, which is defensible in and of itself, but also keeping him until his trade value was zilch despite all the red flags. He was a classic hot potato of an asset.

Yep. There was a point in October of 2016 (after Jabari already had one ACL) where rumor was Ainge had on the table our choice of either Crowder, Smart or Avery Bradley and one of either the 2017 or 2018 Nets pick. And in our internal fan debates, many felt we should ask for more. i.e two of those players or both picks. Had they simply taken Crowder and the Jaylen Brown pick, we'd have already won a title.

But that non-trade was just one of many, many personnel mistakes these new owners made from 2014 onward. Our failure against the Nets last weekend had it's roots multiple times over many years.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

All the anti-Giannis forces out in full gear. And 90% of will claim you've always been saying this. Ya.

im on it and i wont lay off it. he makes the supermax and the entire world has him figured out besides the homers. theres something to it "how the other fans feel".

now as it relates to what some of us have felt previously.....i will admit i was in full denial after the mvp years. BUT... theres some sigs floating around this board from posts i made before that. those sigs are looking pretty accurate now.

there is a way you win in this league, in college, in high school.......today shooting matters more than ever, choking always matters, and elevating your teammates with smart unselfish play accepting your limitations matters more than anything.

those are his issues and they dont seem to be improving. the issues are massive and so is his contract.

I'll go back to the AD comparison. When healthy AD is probably a top 5 player in this league. However, with him and Jrue in NO, they couldn't accomplish anything. Having someone like Lebron take on the leadership role, really helped AD play to his strengths. I could be wrong, but unlike AD, I don't think Giannis will accept that secondary role. He wants to be team leader and primary ball handler when going up against other super stars. He basically sees himself as Kobe, but unfortunately he isn't.

if AD had signed the supermax deal in NO then none of the AD lebron stuff matters.

only way we win is if we trade for a batman that giannis views as a batman. that isnt happening EVER for a varaity of reasons but mostly because i dont believe giannis will EVER play 2nd fiddle to anybody and that should piss us off about him especially when hes taking walk up 3's and airballing fts at the end of games. i like giannis as a person but i have very little tolerance for choking selfish low iq players on a basketball court especially when were down 50 in a playoff game we were favored to win against a team missing a core piece.

im tired of our team being a playoff joke with a regular season scheme thats no more than a gimmick. trade him for a chest of assets and 50 million of flexibility and I'll watch again. im ready for how you "win with giannis" to be somebody elses conversation.

[emunney]

I think we all agree that the overarching difference between regular season and playoffs is that teams hack like a mf and refs allow them to do it. So if your offense revolves around interior scoring, good **** luck. That's why we got all these shotmakers to put around Giannis. In this series? Clank clank clank. And then those guys can't defend one-on-one, so we're getting spread out and scrambled every time down the court.

With Miami, you can go under screens on their main ball handler AND not worry about their C shooting the ball. Brooklyn's essentially playing 3 Duncan Robinson level shooters who can also dribble and pass. It's a different equation, and it doesn't balance in our favor. We can't stop being who we are, but that means we have to get on somebody's ass about the fact that there is a structural imbalance in the way these games are being called. Why is a finger on the elbow of a jumpshooter a foul, but getting raked across both arms on a drive is incidental? The game is out of whack.

[emunney]

We don't need a player better than Giannis, we need somebody who can calmly handle the ball and stabilize us. Filling that role by committee and taking it play by play based on matchups is not stable enough.

In the meantime, work to get Giannis FT line catches.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

We don't need a player better than Giannis, we need somebody who can calmly handle the ball and stabilize us. Filling that role by committee and taking it play by play based on matchups is not stable enough.

do you have examples of guys i can mull on for this role?

everybody says paul and he would have worked except for what he makes and what giannis makes tho. we would have had to gut the roster to fit him.

[paulpressey25]

We don't need a player better than Giannis, we need somebody who can calmly handle the ball and stabilize us. Filling that role by committee and taking it play by play based on matchups is not stable enough.

do you have examples of guys i can mull on for this role?

Malcolm Brogdon or Prime (he's washed now) George Hill.

[BigO]

As always, there's a lot of different degrees to the discussion. Where I fall is that Giannis is a top 5 player in the league but simply should not be the primary ball-handler/creator. Offensively, you can still build the offense around him as the focal point, but he should be the screener/finisher around which everything else moves. Put him in the dunker spot with players that can quickly make the pass to him, put him as the roll man in pick and rolls, and the offense thrives. When Giannis takes over as the lead ball-handler trying to attack down hill, it makes the offense easier to defend. Even worse when he takes over as the lead ball-handler and DOESN'T try to attack down hill.

Is that the only issue or even the main issue in this series right now? Eh, probably not, though I do think it causes a lot of ripple effects. But on top of that, our team has forgotten how to shoot (excluding Giannis, we were at 40% on open/wide open 3's during the regular season, down to 31% this postseason (propped up by Forbes' shooting), and 24% against the Nets). The defense has been laughable against Brooklyn after looking amazing against Miami. We've rolled with this Giannis/Tucker/Brook lineup that was doomed to fail before the games even started. And we seem to be prioritizing stopping Durant when we should really be trying to stay home on everyone else and force Durant to do more heavy lifting.

I agree with every one of your points. But all your points, from how to use Giannis in the proper way, to what is the proper emphasis on defense, leads back to Bud.

[Ron Swanson]

Once again, you could have traded for Paul, still kept George Hill as the backup, and still own half the picks you gave up for Jrue. You couldn't have used the bi-annual exception on Portis so maybe he's gone, you couldn't have signed Pat without going over the tax, and you don't get the pick that turns into Sam Merrill (whatever), but this is the only missed opportunity that I care about considering we don't have to go back 6 years just to play the butterfly effect "what if" game. Do I think we win this series if that'd happened? Idk, maybe. Do I think we'd have at least be sitting here with a split series 1-1 with Harden being out both games and not looking completely shell-shocked going back home? Yeah, probably.

[BucksRule18]

I think we all agree that the overarching difference between regular season and playoffs is that teams hack like a mf and refs allow them to do it. So if your offense revolves around interior scoring, good **** luck. That's why we got all these shotmakers to put around Giannis. In this series? Clank clank clank. And then those guys can't defend one-on-one, so we're getting spread out and scrambled every time down the court.

With Miami, you can go under screens on their main ball handler AND not worry about their C shooting the ball. Brooklyn's essentially playing 3 Duncan Robinson level shooters who can also dribble and pass. It's a different equation, and it doesn't balance in our favor. We can't stop being who we are, but that means we have to get on somebody's ass about the fact that there is a structural imbalance in the way these games are being called. Why is a finger on the elbow of a jumpshooter a foul, but getting raked across both arms on a drive is incidental? The game is out of whack.

The problem is that even of the refs were calling these fouls, Giannis still can't shoot FT's.

[BucksRule18]

Once again, you could have traded for Paul, still kept George Hill as the backup, and still own half the picks you gave up for Jrue. You couldn't have used the bi-annual exception on Portis so maybe he's gone, you couldn't have signed Pat without going over the tax, and you don't get the pick that turns into Sam Merrill (whatever), but this is the only missed opportunity that I care about considering we don't have to go back 6 years just to play the butterfly effect "what if" game. Do I think we win this series if that'd happened? Idk, maybe. Do I think we'd have at least be sitting here with a split series 1-1 with Harden being out both games and not looking completely shell-shocked going back home? Yeah, probably.

I honestly think Giannis would clash with Paul. He likes being the team leader and Paul is too vocal We brought in Jrue to be the ball handler and Giannis is still dominating the ball. Like I noted before, Giannis thinks he's Kobe and there's nothing anyone can tell him to convince him otherwise. I wish he had that much confidence shooting FT's.

[emunney]

We don't need a player better than Giannis, we need somebody who can calmly handle the ball and stabilize us. Filling that role by committee and taking it play by play based on matchups is not stable enough.

do you have examples of guys i can mull on for this role?

Long term I really like Sharife Cooper and a lot of mocks have him available to us. I've brought up Brunson before and he's up again in the transaction thread. Denver got a cheap one in Facu. Ty Jerome has a chance at being that guy. I think Melton gets there. Last summer/fall I wanted us to get Kennard, still think he can fill that role, but hard to say what is going on with him in LA since he seems to be vacillating between being benched and playing really well. Point being these guys are around and we don't need to do anything drastic to get them, we just have to do something smart.

Also, Donte keeps making progress and he could be that guy. Only guy on the team who can throw a consistent post entry AND will help a guy work for a re-post on a kick out. He's got it in him, just doesn't have the ball handling (yet?), and the fact his pull up jumper has totally abandoned him is also... not great.

[emunney]

I think we all agree that the overarching difference between regular season and playoffs is that teams hack like a mf and refs allow them to do it. So if your offense revolves around interior scoring, good **** luck. That's why we got all these shotmakers to put around Giannis. In this series? Clank clank clank. And then those guys can't defend one-on-one, so we're getting spread out and scrambled every time down the court.

With Miami, you can go under screens on their main ball handler AND not worry about their C shooting the ball. Brooklyn's essentially playing 3 Duncan Robinson level shooters who can also dribble and pass. It's a different equation, and it doesn't balance in our favor. We can't stop being who we are, but that means we have to get on somebody's ass about the fact that there is a structural imbalance in the way these games are being called. Why is a finger on the elbow of a jumpshooter a foul, but getting raked across both arms on a drive is incidental? The game is out of whack.

The problem is that even of the refs were calling these fouls, Giannis still can't shoot FT's.

That's a huge problem but this isn't a Giannis-only thing either.

[EastSideBucksFan]

Once again, you could have traded for Paul, still kept George Hill as the backup, and still own half the picks you gave up for Jrue. You couldn't have used the bi-annual exception on Portis so maybe he's gone, you couldn't have signed Pat without going over the tax, and you don't get the pick that turns into Sam Merrill (whatever), but this is the only missed opportunity that I care about considering we don't have to go back 6 years just to play the butterfly effect "what if" game. Do I think we win this series if that'd happened? Idk, maybe. Do I think we'd have at least be sitting here with a split series 1-1 with Harden being out both games and not looking completely shell-shocked going back home? Yeah, probably.

Giannis didn't want to play with Chris Paul

CP3 Suns advanced because Lebron is hobbled and AD is hurt

Chris Paul barely made it thru that series.

I get the wanting him, but, he also wanted to be near the west coast.

He wasn't on the table and Bucks just turned it down.

He was never available for Bucks to acquire.

[EastSideBucksFan]

I don't think Lowry and Conley are at vet minimum deals right now, but adding one of those guys to a Jrue backcourt would put Bucks on another level. They're both very unlikely to make their way on to Bucks roster.