'17-'18 POY discussion

[HeartBreakKid]

4. Draymond Green

Ahh, the player who wouldn't be "top 20" without Curry. The guy who is only good because he plays with good teammates, yada yada yada. He was the best defensive player in the post-season leading the post-season in Steals, 2nd in Blocks, 1st in Defensive Rebounds, Charges Drawn, Deflections, Contested 2 pointers, Contested 3 pointers, and box-outs. We are looking a modern day Dennis Rodman who is also the vocal leader of his team on and off the court. Combined with his ability to run point-forward for stretches of the game makes him one of the most versatile players in the Game.

Is this per game? If this is total then it's not that impressive when you take into account he played a lot of PS games.

It isn't that impressive that he was a key reason his team won the NBA Championship and held the best offense (one of the best ever) to a -9.8 Offensive Rating?

How does that answer my question - or is even relevant?

[Missing Rings]

Is this per game? If this is total then it's not that impressive when you take into account he played a lot of PS games.

It isn't that impressive that he was a key reason his team won the NBA Championship and held the best offense (one of the best ever) to a -9.8 Offensive Rating?

How does that answer my question - or is even relevant?

It is totals, but I don't see why it matters.

[HeartBreakKid]

It isn't that impressive that he was a key reason his team won the NBA Championship and held the best offense (one of the best ever) to a -9.8 Offensive Rating?

How does that answer my question - or is even relevant?

It is totals, but I don't see why it matters.

I mean are totals and averages the same? Of course it matters...they're different stats.

[dhsilv2]

Whatever glaring hole Davis has in his offensive game doesn't compare to the fact that teams pretend Draymond Green isn't on the basketball court when the Warriors are on offense.

And Draymond Green makes them pay for it by being a fantastic passer.

Something that has resulted in 4 nba finals in 4 years and 3 nba titles on the greatest offensive team in nba history. Feels like maybe he's doing something right...

[LA Bird]

I consider Draymond to be top 5 in 2016 but I am not seeing a case for him being anywhere close to top 5 this season. In previous years, Green at least has the plus minus stats going for him as a sign of his strong non box score impact. This year, the Warriors cruised to their worst defense in years and Draymond himself had an unimpressive plus minus. The spacing he provides as a small ball center is non-existent since his 3pt shooting is now below 30% including the playoffs. His defensive versatility, passing and leadership is still quite valuable but not enough to be in the conversation for top 5 IMO.

[eminence]

Seems to be a pretty common view point across this board that offense-first players are allowed to cruise during the regular season and turn it on in the playoffs (LeBron/KD), but very few hold the same for defensive players (Dray). Very strange to me.

[HeartBreakKid]

Seems to be a pretty common view point across this board that offense-first players are allowed to cruise during the regular season and turn it on in the playoffs (LeBron/KD), but very few hold the same for defensive players (Dray). Very strange to me.

*scratches head

Draymond Green is placing top 2 on most peoples DPOY boards despite the fact that he actually legitimately coasted during the RS. Durant and James didn't really coast on offense all that much...

[eminence]

Seems to be a pretty common view point across this board that offense-first players are allowed to cruise during the regular season and turn it on in the playoffs (LeBron/KD), but very few hold the same for defensive players (Dray). Very strange to me.

*scratches head

Draymond Green is placing top 2 on most peoples DPOY boards despite the fact that he actually legitimately coasted during the RS. Durant and James didn't really coast on offense all that much...

bondom - not on ballot
joey - not on ballot
JB - not on ballot
hbk - 2nd
therealbig3 - 2nd
dreamshake - 2nd
dhsilv2 - not on ballot
clyde21 - not on ballot
ronnymac - 1st
iggy - 3rd
mischevious - 2nd
ninja - 3rd
gsp - 3rd
missing rings - 1st
pelifan - not on ballot
outside - 2nd

7/16 = most?

I do agree he coasted more on D than they did on O. Closed by the gap from his mediocre offense to their horrific defense, they were 2 of the worst defensive players in the league over the regular season (minutes weighted).

[Ambrose]

Seems to be a pretty common view point across this board that offense-first players are allowed to cruise during the regular season and turn it on in the playoffs (LeBron/KD), but very few hold the same for defensive players (Dray). Very strange to me.

Well one is LeBron James and the other isn't.

[eminence]

Seems to be a pretty common view point across this board that offense-first players are allowed to cruise during the regular season and turn it on in the playoffs (LeBron/KD), but very few hold the same for defensive players (Dray). Very strange to me.

Well one is LeBron James and the other isn't.

So when does a player 'earn' that leeway? Where does KD fit in?

[Ambrose]

Seems to be a pretty common view point across this board that offense-first players are allowed to cruise during the regular season and turn it on in the playoffs (LeBron/KD), but very few hold the same for defensive players (Dray). Very strange to me.

Well one is LeBron James and the other isn't.

So when does a player 'earn' that leeway? Where does KD fit in?

That's an excellent question. I think it's acceptable when it benefits your teams chances at winning a championship (LeBron, KD and Dray all qualify for this). It's just a lot easier to recognize when the offensive guys are going all out, and they fit the mold of championship #1 option a lot better.

[HeartBreakKid]

Seems to be a pretty common view point across this board that offense-first players are allowed to cruise during the regular season and turn it on in the playoffs (LeBron/KD), but very few hold the same for defensive players (Dray). Very strange to me.

*scratches head

Draymond Green is placing top 2 on most peoples DPOY boards despite the fact that he actually legitimately coasted during the RS. Durant and James didn't really coast on offense all that much...

bondom - not on ballot
joey - not on ballot
JB - not on ballot
hbk - 2nd
therealbig3 - 2nd
dreamshake - 2nd
dhsilv2 - not on ballot
clyde21 - not on ballot
ronnymac - 1st
iggy - 3rd
mischevious - 2nd
ninja - 3rd
gsp - 3rd
missing rings - 1st
pelifan - not on ballot
outside - 2nd

7/16 = most?



I do agree he coasted more on D than they did on O. Closed by the gap from his mediocre offense to their horrific defense, they were 2 of the worst defensive players in the league over the regular season (minutes weighted).

Okay, then he placed 'only' top 3 on most ballots - such a double standard. Like, I don't get your argument, you literally just admitted he coasted more on defense and he is still likely going to get 2nd place in defensive player in the year - despite the fact that statistically speaking he isn't the best or second best defender in the league this year. How is he being treated unfairly? Andre Drummond is statistically the best defender in the league and he won't even place top 3 in this years POY, you want me to cry Green a river?

Durant didn't coast at all, he's the same player he was in the PS - and James only coasted if you think that he can average 34/10/10 for an entire RS.

[eminence]

Okay, then he placed 'only' top 3 on most ballots - such a double standard. Like, I don't get your argument, you literally just admitted he coasted more on defense and he is still likely going to get 2nd place in defensive player in the year - despite the fact that statistically speaking he isn't the best or second best defender in the league this year. How is he being treated unfairly? Andre Drummond is statistically the best defender in the league and he won't even place top 3 in this years POY, you want me to cry Green a river?

Durant didn't coast at all, he's the same player he was in the PS - and James only coasted if you think that he can average 34/10/10 for an entire RS.

Drummond? KD/LBJ didn't coast? I dunno if we're even watching the same game.

[HeartBreakKid]

Okay, then he placed 'only' top 3 on most ballots - such a double standard. Like, I don't get your argument, you literally just admitted he coasted more on defense and he is still likely going to get 2nd place in defensive player in the year - despite the fact that statistically speaking he isn't the best or second best defender in the league this year. How is he being treated unfairly? Andre Drummond is statistically the best defender in the league and he won't even place top 3 in this years POY, you want me to cry Green a river?

Durant didn't coast at all, he's the same player he was in the PS - and James only coasted if you think that he can average 34/10/10 for an entire RS.

Drummond? KD/LBJ didn't coast? I dunno if we're even watching the same game.

No, Kevin Durant and Lebron James did not coast on offense..lol, what the hell is your definition of 'coasting'? Draymond Green didn't even look like one of the best defenders in the league - and didn't even look like an all-star player half way into the season - HE ACTUALLY COASTED. Comparing Green to Durant and James is flat out asinine. Actually, the comparison to Durant doesn't even make sense - Green will place higher on DPOY than Durant will on OPOY, what are you even saying?


Yeah, I bet you watched SO MANY Pistons games for you to make that statement. Please tell me more about how Drummond isn't getting underrated, but a friggin media darling like Draymond Green is getting treated unfairly. Like, Draymond Green was the 2nd best defender this year and he is placing 2nd on our POY most likely - and you're complaining about it, I can't even right now.

[eminence]

Okay, then he placed 'only' top 3 on most ballots - such a double standard. Like, I don't get your argument, you literally just admitted he coasted more on defense and he is still likely going to get 2nd place in defensive player in the year - despite the fact that statistically speaking he isn't the best or second best defender in the league this year. How is he being treated unfairly? Andre Drummond is statistically the best defender in the league and he won't even place top 3 in this years POY, you want me to cry Green a river?

Durant didn't coast at all, he's the same player he was in the PS - and James only coasted if you think that he can average 34/10/10 for an entire RS.

Drummond? KD/LBJ didn't coast? I dunno if we're even watching the same game.

No, Kevin Durant and Lebron James did not coast on offense..lol, what the hell is your definition of 'coasting'? Draymond Green didn't even look like one of the best defenders in the league - and didn't even look like an all-star player half way into the season - HE ACTUALLY COASTED. Comparing Green to Durant and James is flat out asinine. Actually, the comparison to Durant doesn't even make sense - Green will place higher on DPOY than Durant will on OPOY, what are you even saying?


Yeah, I bet you watched SO MANY Pistons games for you to make that statement. Please tell me more about how Drummond isn't getting underrated, but a friggin media darling like Draymond Green is getting treated unfairly. Like, Draymond Green was the 2nd best defender this year and he is placing 2nd on our POY most likely - and you're complaining about it, I can't even right now.

Maybe you missed this in me not voting for OPOY/DPOY or ever referring to them, but I don't care about those awards (or splitting the game into two halves in most contexts), and all my posts are referring to POY. LBJ/KD = coasting on defense (to an absurd degree of being two of the worst defenders in the league for the majority of the season).

[Missing Rings]

Okay, then he placed 'only' top 3 on most ballots - such a double standard. Like, I don't get your argument, you literally just admitted he coasted more on defense and he is still likely going to get 2nd place in defensive player in the year - despite the fact that statistically speaking he isn't the best or second best defender in the league this year.

He also didn't miss time like Roberson, Gobert, or Embiid. That has to matter at a certain point. It is also why I have him above Curry and Chris Paul.

Andre Drummond is statistically the best defender in the league and he won't even place top 3 in this years POY

And all of us on this board have watched both of these players play and can tell which one is 10x the defender of the other one.

[therealbig3]

I know this is a little delayed, but I kind of just realized that I think Boston would have actually put up a better fight than Cleveland did. I think one-man teams that don't play defense (like the Cavs) are just naturally going to get decimated by the Warriors. Warriors just have way too many offensive weapons and move the ball so well that they WILL find the weak spot in your defense. And they have plenty of good defenders to essentially just swarm the 1 major offensive threat on the other team.

OTOH, while the Celtics don't have that 1 guy like LeBron James (nobody close in fact), they do have multiple players that are capable on-ball offensive playmakers, and they don't really have weak spots in their defense to exploit. Everyone is a versatile, capable defender (Brown, Horford, and Smart are actually quite a bit better than that), and everyone is generally high IQ on both sides of the ball. Very well disciplined and are able to adjust both in-game and game-to-game, mainly because of the fantastic coaching of Stevens.

I mean, their overall offensive shortcomings would get exposed and they would definitely still lose, but they have the capability for a different guy to play well and carry the team offensively game to game (i.e., it could be Brown in one game, Tatum the next, Rozier the next, Horford the next, etc.), so that it's almost like they have 1 star that's consistently playing well for them...all the while they uglify the game and turn it into a defensive grind fest.

I could have seen the Celtics pull off a game or two from the Warriors in a manner similar to how the Rockets won games 4 and 5...sneak out the win by shutting them down and doing just enough offensively. They obviously don't have the firepower that the Rockets did, so that's it's much more likely that they just don't do enough offensively, but ultimately, I think they match up better with the Warriors than the Cavs did, and we could have had a more competitive Finals if they actually took that game 7 from the Cavs.

[Dupp]

Seems to be a pretty common view point across this board that offense-first players are allowed to cruise during the regular season and turn it on in the playoffs (LeBron/KD), but very few hold the same for defensive players (Dray). Very strange to me.

But lebrons “cruising” he was bringing way way more to the table that drays “ cruising”... Their workload wasn’t really comparable..


I did feel like X-ray was taking it easy this year when many said he had declined. He’s still a top 10 player to me.

[Doctor MJ]

Is there anyone who would like me to extend the voting deadline?

[Doctor MJ]

I know this is a little delayed, but I kind of just realized that I think Boston would have actually put up a better fight than Cleveland did. I think one-man teams that don't play defense (like the Cavs) are just naturally going to get decimated by the Warriors. Warriors just have way too many offensive weapons and move the ball so well that they WILL find the weak spot in your defense. And they have plenty of good defenders to essentially just swarm the 1 major offensive threat on the other team.

OTOH, while the Celtics don't have that 1 guy like LeBron James (nobody close in fact), they do have multiple players that are capable on-ball offensive playmakers, and they don't really have weak spots in their defense to exploit. Everyone is a versatile, capable defender (Brown, Horford, and Smart are actually quite a bit better than that), and everyone is generally high IQ on both sides of the ball. Very well disciplined and are able to adjust both in-game and game-to-game, mainly because of the fantastic coaching of Stevens.

I mean, their overall offensive shortcomings would get exposed and they would definitely still lose, but they have the capability for a different guy to play well and carry the team offensively game to game (i.e., it could be Brown in one game, Tatum the next, Rozier the next, Horford the next, etc.), so that it's almost like they have 1 star that's consistently playing well for them...all the while they uglify the game and turn it into a defensive grind fest.

I could have seen the Celtics pull off a game or two from the Warriors in a manner similar to how the Rockets won games 4 and 5...sneak out the win by shutting them down and doing just enough offensively. They obviously don't have the firepower that the Rockets did, so that's it's much more likely that they just don't do enough offensively, but ultimately, I think they match up better with the Warriors than the Cavs did, and we could have had a more competitive Finals if they actually took that game 7 from the Cavs.

I'm inclined to agree with that conclusion...of course I'd the same is true for Cleveland if LeBron continues to play like he did during the least 2 wins against Boston and Game 1 against GS.